Cloud of Knives

[Adalid]

Being relatively new to the game I tend to believe what my friend (who's been playing for years) tells me. I've been under the impression you can't stack two of the same buff on yourself, so here's my question, how are people stacking multiple cloud of knives, I understand you persist, then extend but why doesn't the second casting of it override the first? A side question then would be using fire shield x2 to get the warm and cold shield, would one override the other?

[Pinkie Pyro]

Being relatively new to the game I tend to believe what my friend (who's been playing for years) tells me. I've been under the impression you can't stack two of the same buff on yourself, so here's my question, how are people stacking multiple cloud of knives, I understand you persist, then extend but why doesn't the second casting of it override the first? A side question then would be using fire shield x2 to get the warm and cold shield, would one override the other?

As I understand it, Cloud of knives isn't a buff, it's just a spell effect with an ongoing duration. it doesn't give a bonus to anything, it just lets you fire a knife as a free action.

[Afgncaap5]

A side question then would be using fire shield x2 to get the warm and cold shield, would one override the other?

Tricky question, but I believe the answer is that whichever spell you cast last would be the effect that happens. The srd talks about stacking effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects), and this section appears relevant.


The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

Having said that, there are sometimes in-story or in-universe rules where general rules like that can be worked around. I wouldn't let any old wizard cast Fire Shield on him or herself twice, but if that same wizard had a few levels in Cantadel's Pyromancer prestige class (that being the Pyromancer prestige class for my custom world of Cantadel), and if the wizard can make the Spellcraft DC for the Fire Effect Manipulation score of the spell, then I'd allow it easily in that situation. But that's me, as a DM in a world I've made, in a class I designed, so I could easily see different GMs saying no. (Or I could see a GM saying "Eh, what harm could it do? It's not like they're not using an extra 4th level slot to do it." and saying yes anyway. It really depends.)

[Flickerdart]

Being relatively new to the game I tend to believe what my friend (who's been playing for years) tells me. I've been under the impression you can't stack two of the same buff on yourself, so here's my question, how are people stacking multiple cloud of knives, I understand you persist, then extend but why doesn't the second casting of it override the first? A side question then would be using fire shield x2 to get the warm and cold shield, would one override the other?
Check out the Combining Magical effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects) section. Let's run through it with two Persisted Cloud of Knives as our spells:

Stacking Effects: "Spells that provide bonuses or penalties..." Doesn't apply to Cloud of Knives - it provides no bonuses.
Different Bonus Names: Doesn't apply to Cloud of Knives - it provides no bonuses.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: Doesn't apply to Cloud of Knives - the effects are the same strength in every measure.
Same Effect with Differing Results: Doesn't apply to Cloud of Knives - the results are the same in every measure.
One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Both effects are still relevant.
Multiple Mental Control Effects: Cloud of Knives is not mental control.
Spells with Opposite Effects: Cloud of Knives has no such conditions in the spell description.
Instantaneous Effects: Cloud of Knives is not Instantaneous.


Since none of the spell combining rules affect it, you can have as many Cloud of Knives as you can manage. However, Fire Shield falls under "same effects with differing results" because you are using fire for one casting and cold for another, so they don't stack.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cloud of Knives has been thoroughly addressed, so I'd like to visit multiple instances of Fire Shield. From the link Flickerdart provided:

Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

I've found that the above rule has certain obvious applications, such as using Polymorph to take the form of a creature with an extraordinary special attack, and then using Polymorph again to take the from of another creature expecting to retain the previous form's special attack. That rule also has some applications to which it shouldn't apply, such as casting Resist Energy to protect against fire damage, and then Resist Energy to protect against electric damage. Of course casting it twice in the same mode will offer no additional protection, but why would the above rule cause the most recent one to nullify the previous one?

The rule is titled, "Same Effect with Differing Results," indicating that something like Polymorphing into a Firbolg (Str 36, Dex 13, Con 23) and then using Alter Self to turn into yourself, and expecting to keep the Firbolg's physical stats (since Alter Self doesn't modify your ability scores) would clearly be what this rule was intended to prevent. Both of those spells are the same effect (changing your form), but both spells' specific results are different. However, the explanation of the rule goes on to say that only the same spell when used in different modes will not stack. Keep in mind however that it says usually the last spell in the series trumps the others.

In the case of Polymorph and Alter Self, the last sentence of that rule will hold true, the previous spell's effects become irrelevant. However, in the case of Resist Energy multiple times, or Fire Shield multiple times, there is no effect which would be trumped by another, so the usually portion of that will simply not apply in this case. When this rule applies to such spells, it is pointed out in the spell's description, such as Resist Energy's interaction with Protection from Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm). Even then, it only applies when both spells provide the same effect, i.e. protection from the same type of energy.