Should this spell be level 1 or 2?

[Pinkie Pyro]

One of my players is researching a new spell, "Mage's Harpoon"

It's basically the same as throwing a harpoon attached to a rope, except that:
A: magically select where to anchor the target to if the harpoon hits
B: it deals 1d6/caster level on hit, and if it's pulled out.
C: the whole thing is made of force, so the chain has a DC 30 str check to break.

I'm not sure if this should be level 1 or 2, as it's only single target damage and status effect, but one of decent power.

Thoughts, or any side effects I might have missed?

EDIT: sorry, should be in home brew, was supposed to just be a quick question. :c

[Keltest]

I would go second level myself. And you should probably add in a cap to the number of levels that the damage increases to. 20d6 is nothing to scoff at for a first or second level spell, especially given the number of times it could be cast at that point.

[Eloel]

With no cap on damage? That's minimum 3rd level.

You should try to post this over in the Homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design)section, to reach people who know more about homebrew stuff.

[Magma Armor0]

A) I think this belongs in the homebrew section, but I'm not positive.

B) shouldn't that have a cap for Caster Level-->damage? otherwise you have a (potentially) 2nd level spell that deals 20d6 at level 20. Too easy to abuse metamagically, I think.

Edit: Oh wow, did I ever get swordsaged.

[Boci]

So its DC 30 to break the chain, what you break it off of whatever it is attached to, or is that impossible/same DC?

[NeoPhoenix0]

It might be a very useful first if it did the damage of a harpoon, spear, or just 1d6. As written i would give it a cap of 5d6 and call it a 2nd.

Also relevant question, does the target get a save to avoid? or is there some kind of attack roll?

[Boci]

It might be a very useful first if it did the damage of a harpoon, spear, or just 1d6. As written i would give it a cap of 5d6 and call it a 2nd.

Also relevant question, does the target get a save to avoid? or is there some kind of save?

Given that ots the same as throwing a harpoon, I assumed it would require an attack roll at regular AC.

[Keltest]

It might be a very useful first if it did the damage of a harpoon, spear, or just 1d6. As written i would give it a cap of 5d6 and call it a 2nd.

Also relevant question, does the target get a save to avoid? or is there some kind of save?

The nature of the spell makes me think "ranged touch attack"

[NeoPhoenix0]

Given that ots the same as throwing a harpoon, I assumed it would require an attack roll at regular AC.

My internet frizzed out, my second question was supposed to be an attack roll. If it is a regular attack roll against normal ac i might suggest making it 1d8/level max 5d8. still a second level spell. if touch attack i would still recommend 1d6 max 5d6.

[Pinkie Pyro]

I was actually going to have the damage cap be based off the spell level, it's supposed to be 1d6 X 5 X level, right?

It is a ranged touch attack, and I'm looking at a second level, I think.

[Afgncaap5]

The nature of the spell makes me think "ranged touch attack"

Yeah, I think you're right on that. The spell has some similarities to Scorching Ray in how it does things. In fact, if the damage gets capped at 5th level, I'd say it's almost exactly as powerful as Scorching Ray. (It does less damage, of course, but has potentially more utility that could balance it out.) I'd definitely go second, with third level in view a short distance away.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I was actually going to have the damage cap be based off the spell level, it's supposed to be 1d6 X 5 X level, right?

It is a ranged touch attack, and I'm looking at a second level, I think.

no, level 1 and 2 are generally capped at 5d6
3 and 4 at about 10d6
5 and 6 at about 15d6
7 and 8 at about 20d5
and 9 at about 25d6

note that this is pretty generalized and there are differences based on individual spells.

[Eloel]

I was actually going to have the damage cap be based off the spell level, it's supposed to be 1d6 X 5 X level, right?

It is a ranged touch attack, and I'm looking at a second level, I think.

First level spells with relatively long range scale dice/2 level. Example: Magic Missile, Lesser Orbs.

Consider Magic Missile. 1d4+1 (equivalent to 1d6, on average) per 2 levels, upto 5d4+5 (5d6) with no attack roll.
Tacking on a ranged attack roll gives you +1 damage per dice (Lesser Orb of X).
I'd say the pin-down effect would be worth around 2 damage a dice, so 1d4/2 levels? Maybe make the break DC also scale according to caster, DC11+Caster Attribute sounds like a good target to me.

[Eldonauran]

A: Probably should allow some sort of save to avoid being anchored
B: Cap this damage at 5d6.
C: Double sure this should have some sort of save to avoid being anchored.

This is how I would word the spell.

Spell Level 2
Action: Varies (see text)
Range: Close
Duration: 1 round per level
Target: One creature or object (see text)
Save: Ref (see text), Spell Resistance: (See text)

The caster creates a harpoon of force energy that anchors the target to a location of the caster's choice. As part of casting the spell, the caster throws the harpoon as a ranged attack (not a touch attack). Upon impact, the target takes 1d6 damage per caster level (max 5d6) and must make a reflex save to avoid being anchored to the location, which must be within the range of the spell. Success means the harpoon is still embedded in the target and the mage may attempt to anchor the creature again on his next turn (ref save each time). The harpoon is made of force and requires a STR check of 30 to break the effect. Attempting to remove the harpoon deals 1d6 damage per caster level (5d6). The effected creature can not move more than 25ft from the location of anchoring without removing the harpoon or breaking the harpoon, which immediately ends the spell.

Special: The caster may choose to anchor the harpoon to another creature within the range of the spell. He must make a ranged touch attack and the creature receives a reflex save to avoid the effect. Spell resistance applies if the spell is used in this manner. Using the spell in this manner requires a full round action.

[icefractal]

For a 2nd level, single target, it should go up to 10d6. Especially if it's against regular AC instead of touch.
Yes, there are 2nd level spells that only go to 5d6. Those spells mostly suck and don't get picked, unless they have good effects other than damage. Meanwhile there's Scorching Ray scaling to 12d6.

The spell to compare this to, besides Scorching Ray, would be Kelpstrand (Spell Compendium). In comparison to that:
* Only one target instead of L/3 targets - Disadvantage, but only after 6th level.
* Not a touch attack - Big disadvantage.
* Anchored instead of grappled - Not as good a condition, but they have to take damage or make a significantly harder check to get out of it. I'll call this a wash.
* It does damage - Notable advantage as long as the damage stays relevent.

So up to the point where the damage stops scaling, this is sort of a half-way point between Scorching Ray and Kelpstrand, providing both damage and control, though not as good in either category by itself. Once the damage stops scaling, it becomes increasingly obsolete, although still useful in certain circumstances.


Edit: This was before Eldonauran's write-up; I'm basing it on the OP.
With a Reflex save, a 25' roaming area, and a 5d6 cap, it doesn't look very good for 2nd level.

[Keltest]

A: Probably should allow some sort of save to avoid being anchored
B: Cap this damage at 5d6.
C: Double sure this should have some sort of save to avoid being anchored.

This is how I would word the spell.

Spell Level 2
Action: Varies (see text)
Range: Close
Duration: 1 round per level
Target: One creature or object (see text)
Save: Ref (see text), Spell Resistance: (See text)

The caster creates a harpoon of force energy that anchors the target to a location of the caster's choice. As part of casting the spell, the caster throws the harpoon as a ranged attack (not a touch attack). Upon impact, the target takes 1d6 damage per caster level (max 5d6) and must make a reflex save to avoid being anchored to the location, which must be within the range of the spell. Success means the harpoon is still embedded in the target and the mage may attempt to anchor the creature again on his next turn (ref save each time). The harpoon is made of force and requires a STR check of 30 to break the effect. Attempting to remove the harpoon deals 1d6 damage per caster level (5d6). The effected creature can not move more than 25ft from the location of anchoring without removing the harpoon or breaking the harpoon, which immediately ends the spell.

Special: The caster may choose to anchor the harpoon to another creature within the range of the spell. He must make a ranged touch attack and the creature receives a reflex save to avoid the effect. Spell resistance applies if the spell is used in this manner. Using the spell in this manner requires a full round action.

I think requiring the attack from the mage AND giving them a save is a bit excessive. The tether isnt quite that powerful. A fighter with high AC would get missed entirely, and a rogue would avoid the tether, which is the spells primary selling point compared to, say, magic missile. So that means only casters make appealing targets for it.

[Boci]

For a 2nd level, single target, it should go up to 10d6. Especially if it's against regular AC instead of touch.
Yes, there are 2nd level spells that only go to 5d6. Those spells mostly suck and don't get picked, unless they have good effects other than damage. Meanwhile there's Scorching Ray scaling to 12d6.

The spell to compare this to, besides Scorching Ray, would be Kelpstrand (Spell Compendium). In comparison to that:
* Only one target instead of L/3 targets - Disadvantage, but only after 6th level.
* Not a touch attack - Big disadvantage.
* Anchored instead of grappled - Not as good a condition, but they have to take damage or make a significantly harder check to get out of it. I'll call this a wash.
* It does damage - Notable advantage as long as the damage stays relevent.

So up to the point where the damage stops scaling, this is sort of a half-way point between Scorching Ray and Kelpstrand, providing both damage and control, though not as good in either category by itself. Once the damage stops scaling, it becomes increasingly obsolete, although still useful in certain circumstances.


Edit: This was before Eldonauran's write-up; I'm basing it on the OP.
With a Reflex save, a 25' roaming area, and a 5d6 cap, it doesn't look very good for 2nd level.

Wizard or sorcerer is a big difference here. Seeking ray only deals 4d6 damage, but it is a solid spell for wizards to take because until scorching ray gets a second shot its basically scorching ray+. Sorcerers however would have to spend two 2nd level spell slots to get both, a rather big investment, so they will likely choose scorching ray for the long game.

[Afgncaap5]

Meanwhile there's Scorching Ray scaling to 12d6.

You make some good points, but I think it's worth noting that Scorching Ray doesn't scale up to 12d6 so much as it scales up to 4d6 + 4d6 + 4d6. It usually amounts to the same thing, yes, but you've got three chances to miss your target and three chances to fail caster level checks for spell resistance (not typically a big thing, but this spell suddenly feels a lot less powerful against a Mind Flayer Monk.)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

One of my players is researching a new spell, "Mage's Harpoon"

It's basically the same as throwing a harpoon attached to a rope, except that:
A: magically select where to anchor the target to if the harpoon hits
B: it deals 1d6/caster level on hit, and if it's pulled out.
C: the whole thing is made of force, so the chain has a DC 30 str check to break.

I'm not sure if this should be level 1 or 2, as it's only single target damage and status effect, but one of decent power.

Thoughts, or any side effects I might have missed?

Firstly, homebrew forums are the place for this sort of thing. We're pretty good at this stuff over there. :smallbiggrin:

So, I'm going to assume this is a ranged touch attack. I may not be correct, but that's what I'm going to assume.

1d6 per caster level is a bit high for a 2nd level spell, especially uncapped. I'm also hesitant to have it scale too quickly, given that it can effective deal it's damage twice.

Finally, a flat DC 30 check is something to be wary of: most things will never be able to escape it short of pulling out the spear and thus damaging themselves more.

So...some thoughts, in spell form.


Mage's Harpoon
Conjuration / Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./level)
Targets: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: None

You conjure a lance of pure force, anchoring it to a point in space and launching it at your foe. Make a ranged touch attack. If successful, your target takes 1d6 points of damage (plus an additional 1d6 points of damage per 2 caster levels, to a maximum of 10d6 points of damage) and is impaled by the lance of force. As long as they remain impaled they cannot move more than 10 feet from the location where they were hit by this spell. As a standard action they may pull the lance from their body, but doing so deals 1d6 points of damage (plus an additional 1d6 points of damage per 2 caster levels, to a maximum of 10d6 points of damage). They may also attempt to break the anchor as a standard action: doing so requires a Strength check with a DC of 12 + your Intelligence modifier.

Note: This might be a little strong, honestly. At level 4 it's 3d6 damage + movement restriction for 4 rounds, with an addition 3d6 damage and a standard action loss required to remove it, or a standard action loss required to attempt to remove it without damage.

[Pinkie Pyro]

ok, so revised version: (player wanted level 1 spell and is fine with nerfing it to match)

Mage's Harpoon
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25+ 5/2 levels
Targets: One creature, as well as a target location or creature that cannot be more than 60 FT away from the first
Duration: 1 minute/caster level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
A golden harpoon made of force shoots out from the caster's hand, towards the target. On a successful ranged touch attack, the target takes 1d6 damage per two caster levels. In addition, the caster may chose a target location or creature, and a chain attached to the harpoon will shoot at the target, the chain does no damage, but both targets together, they are not allowed to move more than the initial distance between them when the spell is cast. If the target creature is unwilling, the caster must make a ranged touch attack, at a -4 penalty, against the creature. The chain can be broken with a str check, DC 20+ the caster's primary casting stat bonus. The harpoon can be removed by anyone who can take hold of it or the chain, and make a DC 15 str check. removing the harpoon causes the creature to take another 1d6 damage per caster level, and ends the spell.

Anything I missed?

[Sith_Happens]

Note: This might be a little strong, honestly.

As a 1st level spell, yes. I'd say it hits the sweet spot for a 2nd level spell, though.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

As a 1st level spell, yes. I'd say it hits the sweet spot for a 2nd level spell, though.

Ah. I had meant to make it 2nd level, actually. Oops!

[Eldonauran]

Mage's Harpoon
Conjuration / Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./level)
Targets: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: None

You conjure a lance of pure force, anchoring it to a point in space and launching it at your foe. Make a ranged touch attack. If successful, your target takes 1d6 points of damage (plus an additional 1d6 points of damage per 2 caster levels, to a maximum of 10d6 points of damage) and is impaled by the lance of force. As long as they remain impaled they cannot move more than 10 feet from the location where they were hit by this spell. As a standard action they may pull the lance from their body, but doing so deals 1d6 points of damage (plus an additional 1d6 points of damage per 2 caster levels, to a maximum of 10d6 points of damage). They may also attempt to break the anchor as a standard action: doing so requires a Strength check with a DC of 12 + your Intelligence modifier.

Note: This might be a little strong, honestly. At level 4 it's 3d6 damage + movement restriction for 4 rounds, with an addition 3d6 damage and a standard action loss required to remove it, or a standard action loss required to attempt to remove it without damage.

Ehh, mine was a rough draft anyway. Good spell building is always a dialogue anyway. This is a spell that I would definitely consider taking as a control caster.

[Eloel]

Forcing it to be Intelligence doesn't seem right, I'd make it Intelligence or Charisma, whichever is higher/whichever is your caster stat.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Forcing it to be Intelligence doesn't seem right, I'd make it Intelligence or Charisma, whichever is higher/whichever is your caster stat.

Ah. Yes, definitely. Complete oversight on my part. The perils of quick design. :smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

Ah. Yes, definitely. Complete oversight on my part. The perils of quick design. :smalltongue:

Make it primary casting stat, or 12 + 1/2 CL.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Make it primary casting stat, or 12 + 1/2 CL.

It's supposed to be 12 + primary casting stat. Scales nicely when opposed to primary Strength stat checks.

[dextercorvia]

That spell offers a lot of force damage for a 2nd level spell. There may be other direct damage 2nd level spells with a higher cap, but force is 'special' remember.

Comparing to existing spells:

Blast of Force (SC) S/W 2 1d6/2 levels (max 5d6) on a RTA, and chance of prone.
Chain Missile (SC) S/W 3 scales up to 10 dice on first target, with a secondary chaining effect.
Force Missiles (SC) S/W 4 uncapped dice, but 10d6 at 20th CL, split over 4 targets -- no secondary effect
Gembomb (SC) Gnome2, Trade2 1d8/2 levels (max 5d8) 5' burst -- no rider effect
Manyjaws (SC) S/W 3 1d6/level split over level targets (max 10d6), reflex save for half
Orb of Force (SC) S/W 4 1d6/level (max 10d6) ranged touch attack -- no rider effect

Blast of Force is the closest existing spell. Based on this, I'd say the cap needs to be 5d6. The duration may even need to be less than round/level.

[Afgncaap5]

That spell offers a lot of force damage for a 2nd level spell. There may be other direct damage 2nd level spells with a higher cap, but force is 'special' remember.

Comparing to existing spells:

Blast of Force (SC) S/W 2 1d6/2 levels (max 5d6) on a RTA, and chance of prone.
Chain Missile (SC) S/W 3 scales up to 10 dice on first target, with a secondary chaining effect.
Force Missiles (SC) S/W 4 uncapped dice, but 10d6 at 20th CL, split over 4 targets -- no secondary effect
Gembomb (SC) Gnome2, Trade2 1d8/2 levels (max 5d8) 5' burst -- no rider effect
Manyjaws (SC) S/W 3 1d6/level split over level targets (max 10d6), reflex save for half
Orb of Force (SC) S/W 4 1d6/level (max 10d6) ranged touch attack -- no rider effect

Blast of Force is the closest existing spell. Based on this, I'd say the cap needs to be 5d6. The duration may even need to be less than round/level.

I don't know why, but this post made me imagine a prestige class based on the spell, focused on hunting ghosts, spirits, and other ethereal creatures that might be affected by force damage more easily than other kinds of damage.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I don't know why, but this post made me imagine a prestige class based on the spell, focused on hunting ghosts, spirits, and other ethereal creatures that might be affected by force damage more easily than other kinds of damage.

like a force missile mage only better maybe.