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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Ranger Subclass: Sagittary (PEACH)



Wartex1
2015-04-13, 05:42 PM
Sagittary
Unlike a spellbow, which weaves magic into mundane arrows, you concentrate magic through a bow instead of firing an arrow. By using a bow as a conduit for cantrips, you can alter their function and increase their capability. Plus, the sparkles look cool as well.

Cantrip Shots
Once you take this archetype at 3rd level, you learn any 3 damage-dealing cantrips that require a single attack roll with a duration of instantaneous. Whenever you take the Attack action or otherwise make a ranged weapon attack you may cast one of these cantrips and any other cantrips you know that meet the prerequisites for this feature through a shortbow or longbow, ignoring spell components, using dexterity as your spellcasting modifier for attack rolls and save DC as well as using the bow's range (The range is not affected by Sharpshooter or Spell Sniper, but the long range does not impose disadvantage). You may add your Dexterity modifier to the damage dealt, and may add the bonus from the Archery fighting style and magic bows to the attack roll. However, extra damage from spells such as Hunter's Mark and damage roll effects from magic weapons beyond, such as the Oathbow, do not activate when using this feature (Ex: When using a +2 bow that deals an extra 1d6 fire damage, you add the +2, but you do not add the 1d6). If you have the Extra Attack feature, you can cast a cantrip this way up to two times.

Mutable Bolts
Having gained enough magical experience when you reach 7th level, using your bow as a magical medium allows you to alter some of the properties. Once per round, when using the Cantrip Shots feature before making your attack roll, you may expend a spell slot in order to grant specific properties to the attack. The type of damage used for any other damage rolls remains the same as the cantrip used.
Ricochet Bolt
Using a 1st-level spell slot, you allow your shot to ricochet off of a hit target in order to also hit another target within 30 feet, making separate attack and damage rolls for that target. If that attack also hits, you may make another attack and damage roll against a third target, but with disadvantage.
Explosive Bolt
Using a 2nd-level spell slot, your shot lodges into your target before exploding and damaging nearby creatures. Provided that the initial attack roll is a success, all creatures other than the target within 15 feet of the target must make a Dexterity Saving Throw. On a failure, you roll the same damage roll against the creature that failed the saving throw without applying your Dexterity modifier. On a success, the creature takes half damage.
Threefold Bolt
Using a 3rd-level spell slot, your shot splits off into a cluster of three shots that home in on a target. You then make three separate attack and damage rolls for each shot.
Piercing Bolt
Using a 4th-level spell slot, your shot punctures even the mightiest of walls. Your cantrip ignores all cover, any armor an opponent is wearing (including natural armor), and when striking an opponent, can pass through them to hit other creatures behind them. You must make a separate attack and damage rolls against any other creatures in the path of the arrow.
Sacrificial Bolt
Using a 5th-level spell slot, you can make the ultimate magical shot. If your attack with this shot hits, it is an automatic critical hit. However, if it kills its target, all hostile creatures within 50 feet take the same damage.

Gleaming Arrows
Once you reach 11th level, when using your Cantrip Shots feature, instead of releasing a damaging arrow of magic, you may sling a brilliant shot containing beneficial effects. You learn the Guidance, Light, and True Strike cantrips. These can also be used with the Cantrip Shots feature, and despite not normally requiring an attack roll, you must still perform one against your target's AC. Concentration requirements for these cantrips still apply, however.

Magic By Delivery
At 15th level, you can now weave an ally's spell into your own magic. When an allied creature casts a spell on you that affects only yourself directly, such as Cure Wounds or Invisibility, you can use your bow to fling that magic to another creature as a reaction. Instead of being affected by the spell yourself, you can choose a target within range of your shortbow or longbow and have them be affected in your place.

eleazzaar
2015-04-13, 06:58 PM
Interesting.

"Magic by Delivery" could be a really powerful and interesting feature. It's the kind that makes me think of cool things to do with it.

"Gleaming Arrow", however isn't very exciting. If you had the light cantrip, you could cast it on an arrow, and get the exact same effect, except it would last for a full hour. At 11th, IMHO they should get a new damage dealing cantrip, and if you like the light idea change the rules to allow "light" as one of them. But i think you should be getting something else here too.

For "Cantrip Shots", i'd have to do some number crunching and PHB scouring to get a good idea weather it was worth while or not-- i'm too tired to do that now, but i wonder.

Wartex1
2015-04-13, 07:03 PM
Cantrip Shots does less damage than an equivalent Hunter with Sharpshooter magic weapons, but is a solid damage choice and scales with level. I wouldn't recommend allowing this though unless you also allow feats.

I couldn't think of anything terribly interesting for that, so I grabbed something from the source.

This was based off of the Magick Archer from Dragon's Dogma, but I had to change/add some things as well.

Submortimer
2015-04-15, 10:25 AM
at level 20 (assuming 20 dex, sharpshooter, crossbow mastery, colossus strike, and hunters mark) the hunter ranger is doing 2d10+30+ 2d6+1d8 (52.5 avg), at a +8 to hit. by comparison, a saggitary ranger using flame bolt is doing 8d10+10+2d6 (61 avg.), but at his full +13 to hit. Now, that being said, the Hunter gets there at about level 5, whereas the saggitary won't get there till level 17.

Mostly what I'm saying is that feats aren't needed to help this guy out, he's gonna do more than enough damage on his own.

eleazzaar
2015-04-15, 11:19 AM
I wonder if you should require him to use a bow to cast the cantrips the archetype grants.

Gleaming arrows is cooler now, but why no attack roll to hit? It seems a reasonable cost for the ability to project cantrips at great range (which would normally impose disadvantage on a shot) and possibly past cover.

Wartex1
2015-04-15, 11:32 AM
Why did you calculate the 2d6? This is specifically listed to not add extra damage from other effects. This also doesn't deal extra damage from Magic weapons, which add a very large amount of damage to the Hunter Ranger. Any 17th level character is bound to have at least one Legendary item. That's a +3 plus an extra damage die.

In addition, this can only be performed as part of the Attack action, so it can't be used with Swift Quiver. Also, it can't be used in conjunction with other ranger spells, which also add damage.

Also, this subclass is scaled to work with level, which adjusts for the lack of magic items and feat bonuses.

Wartex1
2015-04-15, 11:35 AM
I wonder if you should require him to use a bow to cast the cantrips the archetype grants.

Gleaming arrows is cooler now, but why no attack roll to hit? It seems a reasonable cost for the ability to project cantrips at great range (which would normally impose disadvantage on a shot) and possibly past cover.

Well, attack rolls on allies and empty spaces don't really make sense, but True Strike is arguable.

Submortimer
2015-04-15, 12:17 PM
Why did you calculate the 2d6? This is specifically listed to not add extra damage from other effects. This also doesn't deal extra damage from Magic weapons, which add a very large amount of damage to the Hunter Ranger. Any 17th level character is bound to have at least one Legendary item. That's a +3 plus an extra damage die.

Hmm. That was from hunter's Mark, which I had thought works with all attacks (Like Hex) instead of just weapon attacks. Well, that kinda stinks.

Also, the statement says "Feats, bonuses from using a magic weapon, and other features that add damage to attacks from shortbows or longbows do not function with this feature." That says nothing about spells: If you had a way to cast Hex, you'd get the extra damage. No reason why you would not.

As well, I never factor in magic items. Anything I do the math for only takes into account what the class is absolutely guarenteed to be able to have at that level.



In addition, this can only be performed as part of the Attack action, so it can't be used with Swift Quiver. Also, it can't be used in conjunction with other ranger spells, which also add damage.


It 100% can be used with swift quiver. Here's the thing: This guy doesn't lose ANYTHING on the normal archery side of the house, including feats. Swift quiver lets you take two shots as a bonus action, regardless of what you do in a round. You wanna get crazy? Let's get crazy:

1st turn: Cast swift Quiver, Shoot Someone for 8D10+10 with flame bolt (55 avg damage)
2nd turn (and every turn til SQ ends): Shoot someone for 8D10+10 with flame bolt (55 avg damage), BA shoot the same guy for 2d8+30 (longbow, sharpshooter)(39 avg damage)

Extra Craziness: do Evoker 14, Saggtitary Ranger 6. Overchannel your flame bolts (for free). Add your Int and Dex to each one. Do a flat 100 fire damage a round.

Wartex1
2015-04-15, 12:45 PM
However, you don't get the Hunter bonuses to those, and Beastmaster is pretty awful and not worth considering.

Magic items are also pretty much guaranteed for characters above 10th level, unless you're doing a no-magic or low-magic campaign, where this probably wouldn't be allowed. Also, Overchannel doesn't work with this, since it's a damage altering feature, and Overchanneled cantrips was errata'd anyways IIRC.

I can change the damage bonus to Wisdom or possibly even Intelligence if it makes you feel more comfortable about it.

Submortimer
2015-04-15, 01:06 PM
Magic items are also pretty much guaranteed for characters above 10th level, unless you're doing a no-magic or low-magic campaign, where this probably wouldn't be allowed. Also, Overchannel doesn't work with this, since it's a damage altering feature, and Overchanneled cantrips was errata'd anyways IIRC.

I can change the damage bonus to Wisdom or possibly even Intelligence if it makes you feel more comfortable about it.

I have no issues one way or another. I'm certainly fine with this fella being able to (with heavy multiclassing) adding his dex and int bonus to damage. The thing is your wording: Overchannel effects the cantrip damage, not weapon damage. You specifically limit it to features that effect longbow or shortbow damage, not cantrip damage. If that's your INTENT, then fine, change the wording to be more specific: otherwise, leave it be. I think it's more than fine as is, i was just demonstrating that it doesn't NEED boosts from feats or other abilities that change weapon damage (like sharpshooter or magic weapons).

Ziegander
2015-04-15, 01:23 PM
It deals somewhere in between as much damage up to considerably more damage than an existing, already good damage dealing subclass that also took two feats to help with its attacks and damage. How can that be considered fine and balanced?

Submortimer
2015-04-15, 01:29 PM
I re-read the Cantrip Shot ability. I understand now why I was misunderstanding things. I feel that it's too complicated as-is. I would change it to something like this:

"Once you take this archetype at 3rd level, you learn any 3 damage-dealing cantrips that require a single attack roll with a duration of instantaneous. Whenever you take the Attack action you may cast one of these cantrips through a shortbow or longbow, using dexterity as your spellcasting modifier. You may add your Dexterity modifier to the damage dealt, and may add the bonus from the Archery fighting style to the attack roll. If you have the Extra Attack feature, you can cast a cantrip this way up to two times."

This is essentially the same as what you had before, but MUCH more streamlined. Cantrips naturally do not gain any bonus from hunter's mark, sharpshooter, or anything like that.

Submortimer
2015-04-15, 01:32 PM
It deals somewhere in between as much damage up to considerably more damage than an existing, already good damage dealing subclass that also took two feats to help with its attacks and damage. How can that be considered fine and balanced?

Check out how long it takes to get there. We compared at level 20. At level 5, the regular ranger can already do that huge boatload of damage. This guy, OTOH, would be doing 4d10+10 (29 avg). Since it doesn't benefit from hunters mark, it's about comparable to a warlock at that level using hex.(4d10+10 vs 2d10+2d6+10)

Wartex1
2015-04-15, 01:37 PM
That would work as long as you add a blurb about using the bow's range.

Also, to the feats, the feats provide other helpful bonuses as well, such as ignoring cover and increasing effective range as well. This also doesn't gain bonuses from magical bows and ammunition, which heavily outdamage it and more than make up for the level scaling.

It's also not like taking feats is much of a sacrifice when the feats are objectively better than an ASI, especially with Variant Human.

eleazzaar
2015-04-16, 07:58 PM
Well, attack rolls on allies and empty spaces don't really make sense, but True Strike is arguable.

Why not? Trying to achieve something difficult usually requires a roll. If an archer ways trying to get a bulls eye in a tournament, would you just let him hit it, since he wasn't trying to actually "attack"?

Wartex1
2015-04-16, 08:03 PM
I changed that bit already :smallconfused: