Suggestions for a Troubled DM...

[lynxd80]

If you are a Member of my 3.5 campaign and are reading this, I request that you cease reading and view elsewhere.

That being said, this is mostly a vent, but I'm willing to accept suggestions...

Im having a bit of a dilemma with my group of players that isn't rules oriented, per say... I've been noticing over the last month that my Player's Characters have been getting on each other's nerves which, in turn, has began to bleed out into "Real World" personalities. There are 7 players with personalities as distinct in some areas as they are similiar in other. The Leader of the party is a Elf (Two-weapon specializing Urban Ranger) whom was promoted to a ranking officer within a rebel army. He started off Chaotic neutral, but through a twist of fate, became a reluctant Neutral Good (though, he occassionally comes close to backsliding). The Second character is his Love interest, an archery based Dhamphir Ranger, whom is very jealous and guarding of her comrades. The third member is a HengeYokai Cat (the Chaotic-neutral rogue of the party) whom has a sharp affinity for shiny things, treasure, and an fierce feline Independant streak. She is in love with an NPC member of the group. Will, also, note she is my wife IRL XD.

Following these there is a Female Gargoyle whom began an Chaotic Neutral Wizard/swiftblade build. She began as one seeking to rescue a stolen Dragon hatchling, but has fast began to develop a gruesome blood lust and desire to collect parts which is moving her towards Neutral evil. Then, their is a Human Ranger/Scout of Chaotic Neutral (a pattern here, right?) whom began travels on a whim, but seems to be fastly developing a desire to conquer and is talking the Gargoyle into joining him in a coupe that, out of character and in, nobody knows about but, I. And, then, we get to the Wizard whom is neutral good, with an occassional quirk going into Chaotic neutral. His player is a much longer played gamer and he has become a bit of a know it all both in and out of character. he is, also, obssessed with optimizing the party both in and out of character (to everyone elses chagrin) and originally came into the game with his character possessing 5-7 templates.

Being a fresh GM and running my first game, I allowed it... But, after he rolled and ended up with what he called a "casual score" of 47 on a bluff check at level 5; he earned some real resentment for a bit and I was forced to knock out a few templates... He's still getting in the 40's, though and occassionally fabricates a rule or feat that I have, later, found to be not in context, correct, or even non-existant. Kinda has a bad habit of metagaming, but they all do a little. Lastly, the newest player is (of course) a Chaotic-neutral Fairy whom, like the Wizard, is optimized all over the place and, becuase it was built by the same player as the wizard, may or may not be running on eskewed rules... He has only been with us about a month or so now.

This being explained, the Wizard has a "I'm the Hero" complex and is constantly trying to force the group to follow plans of his devising which peeves off more then a few people. The actual group leader doesn't lead much, but is quick to throw them into danger for the leveling and quick to argue rules and symantics with the Wizard. The actual human scout plays an archaic sort of character which doesn't set him well with the Dhamphire and Cat, causing them to argue OOC when he attacks the Cat for acting ridiculously and has, thus, began to ostrsize himself and plot this IC Coupe/betrayal. The women feel like the men get to do more roleplaying because they can't be as loud as the guys when they all via for attention. The cat iis really bothered by the wizard or anyone trying to control her character and will. purposefully, do contrary things to spite people... Even to the detriment of the party. The Dhampire is in a relationship both in and out of charcter with the Elf, but they recently went to taking "A break". It hasn't affected my game, yet, but it has affected another I am in with them... So I'm a little worried.

Finally, The gargoyle is also in a peculiar relationship in and out of game with the human... And, she feels the most ignored and purposeless which is why her character has become more, and more grim-dark. I'm trying to get her to a place where her backstory will really kick in for her, but it doesn't seem like I can get her there fast enough and she just feels invisible. Thankfully, there isn't any real issues with the Pixie, but when I let the Wizard NPC him the other day (due to him being at a Con), it caused a whole crap-storm to happen which caused a fight between him and the Cat which became a battle bewteen the human, dhamphire, and Cat (in game and verbal OOC). It caused him to come to me after the game with the gargoyle to discuss becoming evil and seeking revenge (even unto his own character's demise) against the party... Something that he's talked the gargoyle into joining him in.

I'm trying to run a fun game for all of my wife and all of our friends! I have a great story planned out and they're about to hit level 9. I'm wanting to take this to 20, but if tensions keep rising, then I may have to cancel the game all together. My question is: What is a good way to bring a group of friends together, both in game and out of character, so that they stop trying to work apart from one another and start working together? And, with 7 players, how can I make sure that each of my players are getting their needs met when they come to play?

As stated above: Suggestions are welcome.
~Lynx D.

[jjcrpntr]

Tell them you are in over your head with their optimization and ask them to reroll. That's what I'd do.

I have had similar issues in my group. One guy that was obsessed with powergaming, couple guys that were massive rules lawyers, and a few guys that could really get on other peoples nerves quickly. I've found talking to people usually helps.

In my case for example, I've been running for about 2 years now but the game has been pretty simple, mostly due to a lot of turnover in the group. So when guys show up with crazy builds I'll ask them to tone it down because I honestly think that it will be an issue in the game. This has led me to not allow things at the table (for example one of my players wanted to research custom spells for his wizard, I told him no. Mostly because this player, while a great guy, is a power gamer to highest degree and would come back with insane stuff). Everyone understands and is cool with it.

Now I'm also very lucky in the sense that none of my players wants to overshadow anyone else. So they all seem to try and play characters that fit together. Hell one guy played a pure heal bot cleric and had a blast with it.

Talk to your players, the biggest thing I've learned so far is to know my limit and keep things to what I can handle.

[GilesTheCleric]

This might sound a bit silly since all the following comments will be "talk about it!". Taking doesn't always work, and is tricky to do and might have large repercussions. So, an alternate method that doesn't always work, is tricky to do, and might have significant repercussions: have them randomly trade characters for a session. Ask them first if they're okay giving that a try, and tell them that the session won't be cannon. Getting a chance to walk in each other's shoes might be a better method for some groups than talking about it. Tell them that if things get really heated, you'll stop the session. This method is probably less likely to work than talking for most groups, and you're the best judge of whether it is possibly likely to work. However, I didn't think anyone else might mention it as a solution.

[Geddy2112]

Wow, and I thought my group had challenges....
First and formost, I tip my hat to you for DMing. You have gone quite hard in the paint for your first time, and done things a lot of seasoned DM's won't do because it can create situations like this. Bravo for wanting to keep it together and having a level head.

Off the bat, chaotic neutral is usually an alignment picked when a PC wanted an evil character but the game disallowed evil alignments. If the players all want to run an evil campaign that's ok but be on the same page.

Playing characters who are dating/married by 2 players who are dating/married is also usually a trap newer players fall into. Two people who know each other on that level can make for great RP, or terrible when they are joined at the hip in character.

Did these players make their characters together? Creating characters in a vacuum often makes for personalities that clash inherently. If half the party wants to run around and adventure and the other half wants to kill them, why should they travel together? A LG bard who respects the dead by singing at funerals is going to have a beef with a CE wizard who loves necromancy and hates music.

Also, it sounds like your table needs a written social contract: a contract of how they will all play as players and things that are and are not OK. Is PvP acceptable, what about stealing from the group? How do we handle loot distribution? Players not being here? This puts everybody on the same page-some groups love playing a group where they fight each other 24/7 and backstabbing is encouraged, Some groups do not. Neither is wrong, so long as everybody is fine with playing that way.

All of that said, I think you need a TPK or a near TPK. Don't let them PvP, players that are already taking things this personally will only be more hurt by PvP. Also, the optimized wizard will probably kill the party and then say "Well you should have listened to me." So instead of waiting till they kill each other(they are already attacking each other and plotting it) throw something really hardcore at them. Like a CR18- a few might survive, but most of them are going to die. Since they only seem to respond to force, you will force them together and most to die together fighting a greater threat. Make the attacks completely random to show no bias towards the group, so you are not targeting specific PC's. I will say you probably need to tailor for the wizard though- a level 9 optimized wizard still has a lot of power and is also most likely to survive...they probably need to be killed off and forced to roll again.

After the dust settles, see how the survivors (if any) react. Maybe they finish each other off or grow together. Either way, talk to them about them with the stuff above and reboot the campaign with a lot of new characters who will stand a chance of being friends. If they decide to work together and put this all behind them, deus ex the players back to life and say it was not canon- a bad dream or something.

[Vizzerdrix]

1- It sounds like you have confused the word optomizer with cheater. This is a common mistake. I'd recommend going over every detail of the pixie and
Wizard (and any other characters that player had a hand in) with the player.

2- It is always a bad idea to allow anyone whom is not the owner of a character to to control said character under any circumstance. Nine times out of ten it leads to infighting or resentment. Just shift the character to the background somehow, then drop them back in when the player returns.

[atemu1234]

1- It sounds like you have confused the word optomizer with cheater. This is a common mistake. I'd recommend going over every detail of the pixie and
Wizard (and any other characters that player had a hand in) with the player.

2- It is always a bad idea to allow anyone whom is not the owner of a character to to control said character under any circumstance. Nine times out of ten it leads to infighting or resentment. Just shift the character to the background somehow, then drop them back in when the player returns.

God knows I use door #2 here too often.

[General Sajaru]

1- It sounds like you have confused the word optomizer with cheater. This is a common mistake. I'd recommend going over every detail of the pixie and
Wizard (and any other characters that player had a hand in) with the player.

2- It is always a bad idea to allow anyone whom is not the owner of a character to to control said character under any circumstance. Nine times out of ten it leads to infighting or resentment. Just shift the character to the background somehow, then drop them back in when the player returns.

Going to second both of these; an optimizer knows the rules and knows how to make them work for them. A cheater makes up rules in order to benefit themselves, oftentimes over others.

As for players being absent, especially a group your size, it's not vital that you have the entire party be present for an encounter, so simply having their character disappear for a session and then reappear isn't a big deal. In a smaller group, when it might be, I recommend playing them as an NPC controlled by the DM.


As for your group, since you're new to the DMing business, it's a bad idea to let players go for particularly complex builds, especially if you haven't reviewed them thoroughly in order to determine their relative levels of power. Furthermore, letting your "optimizer" play a Tier 1 class is probably a bad idea in and of itself, which is all the more reason to kill him off, and soon ;). As a way to either force them to band together and/or die, you might want to start up a story-line where some sort of powerful creature (dragon, lich, aberration, etc.) or group of creatures (shades, aberrations, Tucker's Kobolds) invades the area and they must attempt to face it in order to continue. That'll encourage group unity- or show that even the most "optimized" wizard is still pretty darn squishy.

[Crake]

Honestly, a group of 7 for a new DM, you'll never be able to make everyone feel special without someone also feeling outshadowed. If you seriously can't bear to drop anyone (though from the sounds of it, at least a few of these players are random pick ups?) then split the group into a group of 3 and a group of 4, with the (DM)NPC that your wife is in love with being in her group (since that sounds like an analogue for yourself so you and your wife can, for the most part, play together without you being alone behind the screen?) leaving you with two groups of 4. Try to split the groups in a way that players who often come to conflict with eachother are in separate groups, that should help smooth things out, and also give people more of a chance to shine, and feel important to the story.

As for the two "optimizers" 5-7 templates in a level 5 game sounds dubious at best. There are only a handful of LA0 templates, most of them quite horribly broken or questionable in the first place (see: unseelie fey). If you ask me, make everyone have an electronic copy of their character sheet available, say on myth-weavers (http://www.myth-weavers.com/) or the like, which will allow you to familiarise yourself with each character. Also, while at the table, unless either the player can show you the rules text for an ability they would like to use or you are already familiar with how it works, simply do not allow it, rather than taking the player's word for it. Make sure this rule is well known before hand and tell players to have the rules text for their obscure abilities hidden away in whatever splatbook they are using.

[Sian]

The issue with Chaotic Neutral (beyond the use as a non-evil evil), is that it promotes a highly independent character that has to get its arm twisted behind its back to play nice with the others instead of just wandering off in a random direction, with no mind as to what the rest of the team wants.

And for a starting DM you probably have a to big group to control singlehandedly, I'd suggest promoting someone to Co-DM taking care of some of the more mechanical parts of the game, say keeping a roll call of who's turn it is in combat, (co-)designing and running some/all of the opponents/monsters and the like as to not spread you so thin, and leave you able to focus more on the softer parts of the game, figuring out where the game is going from a story PoV, worldbuilding, handling friendly NPCs etc.

It seems like you've failed to make sure that everyone is on the same page (or at the very least in the same book) when it comes to a consensus on where the game is going, as if it should be a game focused on conquest, a game focused on intercharacter intrigue or running the rebels or even if the party should have a tendency towards good or evil (Lawful vs Chaotic is more tricky to make a primary factor). And this lack of argeement as for the tone and theme of the game fuel a lot of the problems with the party being about as controlable as herding cats.

If you know where the party are likely to go, its much easier to make a deep experience for the players since you can much easier plan ahead, if the group rolls a dice about what to do every 10 minutes the game can very easily be somewhat superficial since you have to play catch up with the planing and eachever time you're just about there, they take a sharp left turn leaving your momentum moving you in the wrong direction.

[lynxd80]

I GREATLY appreciate EVERYONES feedback! There are more then a few things that I have gleamed from your thoughts and ideas that I do believe I'm going to instill into the session upon the group reaching Level 10. Before then, though, I'm going to work to remind the players why there characters came together in the first place and use the dungeon they are currently in as a reminder of why it is so important for them to come together. I've, also, finalized how it is I am going to deal with the balances of power amongst the players.

Once more, thank you all for the help! I'm glad to hear any other suggestions, but everything you've suggested has certainly provided me with some fresh perspective.

~Lynx D.

[endur]

1) As a GM, you don't have to allow PCs to take templates. It is perfectly cool to say no templates allowed. Templates aren't even mentioned in the Players Handbook.

2) As a GM, you control whether other people get to talk. If people are quiet, feel free to reach out to them and ask them what their character has to say. If necessary, control conversations using initiative die rolls.

3) You can also say no evil alignments allowed ... many campaigns have this rule to avoid party versus party conflict.

4) It is ok if the group spends an entire night conversing in an inn and doesn't make a lot of progress on the main quest ... goal is for players to feel involved and have fun, not necessarily make progress. You could have a bard ask to interview the characters for a song and ask them to describe their adventures, giving the players a chance to talk about what they have done and what they want to do.

5) Relationships are tricky, good luck.

6) Find out what your players want and try to meet their needs. Some players want magic items and gold (i.e. loot). Some players want to try out a build. Some players want to ride a white horse and rescue damsels in distress. Some players want to smash iconic monsters. These goals might match their character's alignment and might not.

7) If they want to conquer something, is it because they want to make a mess, because they really want it, or because they think they can do it better.

[Sian]

3) You can also say no evil alignments allowed ... many campaigns have this rule to avoid party versus party conflict.

as an addentum.

Players have a tendency to use Chaotic Neutral as pseudo-evil when evil alignments are disallowed, be sure to be aware of this and prehaps even clamp down on that alignment as well, as it (as mentioned) tend not to play nice with group dynamics, unless everyone is conscious about it trying to make the ends meet

[Nibbens]

as an addentum.

Players have a tendency to use Chaotic Neutral as pseudo-evil when evil alignments are disallowed, be sure to be aware of this and prehaps even clamp down on that alignment as well, as it (as mentioned) tend not to play nice with group dynamics, unless everyone is conscious about it trying to make the ends meet

Seconded.

If you're a new DM (as you're saying you are) ((And btw, welcome to the best part of D&D! lol)) then I'd be a bit more restrictive in what's allowed and make sure your players are aware of what "Theme" of game you wanted to play before the game began.

If you tell PC's "we're playing a heroic game so I'm limiting evil alignments" then they build characters that can work together. Oftentimes, when I do an evil campaign, I'll throw a rider in of "NO D*** PVP." It hampers player style a little, but they all know you want them to work together.

Really, I'm not coming in with any new or amazing advice for you. I just wanted to give my stamp of approval on what people are saying here. However you handle this situation, just remember that they are people first, players second, and sometimes some people just don't fit.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I GREATLY appreciate EVERYONES feedback! There are more then a few things that I have gleamed from your thoughts and ideas that I do believe I'm going to instill into the session upon the group reaching Level 10..

They aren't 10 yet and have 5-7 templates? My record is 5 and one of those one Incarnate Construct (my DM laughed at me and told me to try again) and I still came up +2. I sense some serious cheating going on, or at least an utter and total lack of knowledge of how templates work (and I am convinced if that were true it would be willful). I would review his sheet, look up each template, and check his actual ECL. If you want post them here/PM them and we can look them up. Best to confirm shenanigans before accusing people.

[lynxd80]

They aren't 10 yet and have 5-7 templates? My record is 5 and one of those one Incarnate Construct (my DM laughed at me and told me to try again) and I still came up +2. I sense some serious cheating going on, or at least an utter and total lack of knowledge of how templates work (and I am convinced if that were true it would be willful). I would review his sheet, look up each template, and check his actual ECL. If you want post them here/PM them and we can look them up. Best to confirm shenanigans before accusing people.

Now, let me just say that being very fresh when I first started, I allowed him to talk me into it (character concept from him was supposed to be an magical amalgam due to Alchemy gone wrong by the Villians part) when he joined. Granted, everything he took was to power his abilities to use speaking skills and buff magics to protect the party and himself, but after a few gaming sessions: I 100% recongnized my error and requested he remove 2-3 of them in order to try and rebalance the game. He did as such, but even with these adjustments, he's been more powerful (mostly in skill based rp) then any 2 of the other players combined... At least, up till recently. I've been examining and re-examining his build which has lead to a few other discoveries which, once again, he was more then happy to adjust. Still, I want things to be more balanced and have, hence, planned on what I'm going to do.

Again, can't help but to thank you all for the suggestions. I really feel more confident on what I'm going to do in the next month or two when they hit level 10. Contracts, capping the "optimization" to a level of the groups deciding, and having players play charcters that they themselves have built and know all their specs is amongst a few. Thanks again, Playground! You guys rock!

Lynx D.