Deathless Character

[Kon Owens]

So, I stumbled across something odd while reading the Book of Exalted Cheese.

There exists the Deathless Subtype, basically undead but based off positive energy rather than negative. But, despite looking through the book and the internet, there didn't appear to be any race or class (save the Risen Martyr PrC) that gave the subtype.

So, that got me thinking: what if you took the Necropolitan template and altered it to give the Deathless Subtype instead of making you undead? And change the text flavor for less death and decay overtones. Any suggestions for what mechanically should be altered?

[HolyDraconus]

Keep reading the cheese. It actually gives the template in there. Last I checked though the template can only be applied to undead with int.

[Inevitability]

Eberron has some deathless stuff.

[Kon Owens]

Hmm, I went back and re-read the book. The template it gives is for the Sacred Watcher, and has a +5 level adjustment. Not bad, but horribly overpriced, and it gives more stuff than just the template.

Eberon has some Deathless stuff? I'll go check it out. Though, on the grounds of creating a brand new template, are there any thoughts?

[Spore]

Last I checked though the template can only be applied to undead with int.

Which is weird because how I read the fluff is that the entities died at one point but are kept alive by raw positive energy. It would be a template specifically applied to NON-undead creatures.

Alas, the rules: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Deathless_%28DnD_Template%29

[atemu1234]

Which is weird because how I read the fluff is that the entities died at one point but are kept alive by raw positive energy. It would be a template specifically applied to NON-undead creatures.

Alas, the rules: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Deathless_%28DnD_Template%29

That's dandwiki, we can do better than that.

[weckar]

Alas, the rules: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Deathless_%28DnD_Template%29
Casts Turn Homebrew

[Tiri]

Deathless is a type, not a subtype. They are basically the opposite of undead, except Hide from Undead and Undeath to Death still work against them and Disrupt Undead heals them. They also can't run.

EDIT: You should never use dandwiki for any non-SRD information. It's mostly just homebrew named after official rules.

[Spore]

Casts Turn Homebrew

This ... looked so genuine. ^^

[atemu1234]

This ... looked so genuine. ^^

Rule of thumb, if you see dandwiki, turn away. If it's SRD you want, check d20srd.org.

[SangoProduction]

Rule of thumb, if you see dandwiki, turn away. If it's SRD you want, check d20srd.org.

I don't get what makes dandwiki so bad. Down at the bottom it clearly states what is and isn't homebrew.

[Red Fel]

I don't get what makes dandwiki so bad. Down at the bottom it clearly states what is and isn't homebrew.

The problem is when it doesn't. Its SRD materials may be labeled as SRD, but not all of its homebrew is labeled as homebrew. There have been multiple incidents of people coming into the forums asking about entirely homebrewed classes which they were convinced were real, simply because dandwiki's labeling system - and its total lack of quality control - wasn't up to the task.

Yeah. As a general rule, I don't even click links to dandwiki, except sometimes when an extremely aware person observes, "I know this is homebrew and horribly broken but it's just so cool."

Because, you know. So cool.

EDIT: Did anybody else notice that this thread is tagged necopolitan? I was unaware just how much the undead had to do with the New England College of Optometry.

[Kon Owens]

Did anybody else notice that this thread is tagged necopolitan?

Ah, jeezus, I'll go fix that. Thanks for catching that man. But, beyond that, I agree that dndwiki is okay, I've found some neat stuff there myself, but I always run it by my GM first before taking it.

And, on the original topic, I took your guy's advice. Homebrew it is. How does this look?

Spectral King (Deathless Template)
Spectral Kings are souls that possess an inherent nobility that have coalesced to transcend death, a process that has come to be know as the Night of the Wraith.

Spectral Kings are pale, tall, and thin. They and everything they carry appear faded and worn, but not in bad condition. If you catch a glimpse of them in the corner of your eye, it appears as if their skin is see through, and you can see the skeleton underneath. Sometimes, a flicker passes over their hands or face, and black veins come to the surface, diapering just as quick. An air of mystery seeps from them, making them seem aloof and removed from the world around them.

Spectral King Qualities:
Spectral King is a template that may be applied to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid.
A Spectral King new any language it knew in life, and keeps its base creature stats and special abilities, expect as noted below.

Requirements: May only be taken at First Level, 5000 GP, taken out of the characters staring gold, or added as a debt that he must pay off before he may buy any items.
Size and Type: The creatures type changes to Deathless, and they gain the augmented subtype. Their size remains unchanged.
Hit Dice: HD become d12, as dictated by Deathless Type.

Keeps all the base creatures special qualities, and gains the following
Turn Resistance: +2 to resist Turn Undead attempts
Destroy Resistance: +4 to resist Destroy Undead attempts
Exalted Spirit: Spectral Kings are treated as if they had undergone the Exalted Ritual
Eternal Soul: Spectral Kings do not suffer the penalties of aging
Soul Item: Spectral Kings gain a specific item that functions as a hybrid of a Phylactery and an Item Familiar. It is the object that keeps a Spectral King bound to the world, and the item around which they reform over 1d20 days if their physical body is destroyed. Additionally, it can be leveled by spending money to enhance it, and gains abilities as an item familiar. However, instead of giving bonus experience as an item familiar, it instead drains 10% of all experience earned by the Spectral King to sustain itself. If the Soul item is destroyed, the Spectral King immediately dies, and his body dissolves into dust, and cannot be restored to life.
LA: +0

Night of the Wraith (Ritual):
Requires: 5000 GP, the item to become the Soul Item, and the bones of the deceased
Ritual: The soul of the deceased is recalled to the bones it inhabited while it was alive through the use of mystical runes drawn on the bones, symbols painted on the floor, and incense burned to entice the spirit back (part of the 5000 GP, probably around 1000, is spent here). Next, a priest, priestess, necromancer, etc. intones the sacred words to settle the Soul into the item, which then becomes the Soul Item. The item must be worth at least 1000 GP to act as the focus. The remaining 3000 GP is then taken by the intoner to pay for his services, and the Soul reforms its former body around its bones over the course of 1d20 days. When the time is finished, the Spectral Knight rises, having attained a semblance of its former life.

Final notes: This template was designed to try and be a good aligned undead, I don't know how well I accomplished this. I think the penalties/requirements outweigh the benefits, but I am open to suggestions. Tell me what you think, please!

[atemu1234]

Ah, jeezus, I'll go fix that. Thanks for catching that man. But, beyond that, I agree that dndwiki is okay, I've found some neat stuff there myself, but I always run it by my GM first before taking it.

And, on the original topic, I took your guy's advice. Homebrew it is. How does this look?

Spectral King (Deathless Template)
Spectral Kings are souls that possess an inherent nobility that have coalesced to transcend death, a process that has come to be know as the Night of the Wraith.

Spectral Kings are pale, tall, and thin. They and everything they carry appear faded and worn, but not in bad condition. If you catch a glimpse of them in the corner of your eye, it appears as if their skin is see through, and you can see the skeleton underneath. Sometimes, a flicker passes over their hands or face, and black veins come to the surface, diapering just as quick. An air of mystery seeps from them, making them seem aloof and removed from the world around them.

Spectral King Qualities:
Spectral King is a template that may be applied to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid.
A Spectral King new any language it knew in life, and keeps its base creature stats and special abilities, expect as noted below.

Requirements: May only be taken at First Level, 5000 GP, taken out of the characters staring gold, or added as a debt that he must pay off before he may buy any items.
Size and Type: The creatures type changes to Deathless, and they gain the augmented subtype. Their size remains unchanged.
Hit Dice: HD become d12, as dictated by Deathless Type.

Keeps all the base creatures special qualities, and gains the following
Turn Resistance: +2 to resist Turn Undead attempts
Destroy Resistance: +4 to resist Destroy Undead attempts
Exalted Spirit: Spectral Kings are treated as if they had undergone the Exalted Ritual
Eternal Soul: Spectral Kings do not suffer the penalties of aging
Soul Item: Spectral Kings gain a specific item that functions as a hybrid of a Phylactery and an Item Familiar. It is the object that keeps a Spectral King bound to the world, and the item around which they reform over 1d20 days if their physical body is destroyed. Additionally, it can be leveled by spending money to enhance it, and gains abilities as an item familiar. However, instead of giving bonus experience as an item familiar, it instead drains 10% of all experience earned by the Spectral King to sustain itself. If the Soul item is destroyed, the Spectral King immediately dies, and his body dissolves into dust, and cannot be restored to life.
LA: +0

Night of the Wraith (Ritual):
Requires: 5000 GP, the item to become the Soul Item, and the bones of the deceased
Ritual: The soul of the deceased is recalled to the bones it inhabited while it was alive through the use of mystical runes drawn on the bones, symbols painted on the floor, and incense burned to entice the spirit back (part of the 5000 GP, probably around 1000, is spent here). Next, a priest, priestess, necromancer, etc. intones the sacred words to settle the Soul into the item, which then becomes the Soul Item. The item must be worth at least 1000 GP to act as the focus. The remaining 3000 GP is then taken by the intoner to pay for his services, and the Soul reforms its former body around its bones over the course of 1d20 days. When the time is finished, the Spectral Knight rises, having attained a semblance of its former life.

Final notes: This template was designed to try and be a good aligned undead, I don't know how well I accomplished this. I think the penalties/requirements outweigh the benefits, but I am open to suggestions. Tell me what you think, please!

It would be Rebuke Resistance, not Turn Resistance.

[Kon Owens]

It would be Rebuke Resistance, not Turn Resistance.

I thought so to, but I then went and read the Deathless type. It reverses Turn and Rebuke Undead roles, since you're a being of positive energy instead of negative. Good aligned clerics Rebuke and Bolster you, and Evil clerics Turn and Destroy you. That's why I changed the template to protect against those.

[Red Fel]

Ignoring for a moment the fact that, unless you want to toss WBL right out the window, there is no way a first-level character has 5,000 gold on them, you should probably consider placing your homebrewed Deathless in the Homebrew Design forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design). You'll find a more receptive audience there.

I can't speak to whether it's good at LA +0 or should be increased. I can tell you, however, that part of the purpose of the Deathless, as described in fluff, is to remain in the world to accomplish some important purpose, and then to pass on. Using one as a template like this is a bit of an iffy proposition; one can just as easily roll a Necropolitan. The only benefit the Deathless gains over the Necropolitan is its positive energy base, and honestly some good planning makes that less of a concern than you'd think. Even assuming a PC could invest in this kind of thing, I don't think it'd be worthwhile.

[Kon Owens]

Fair point. I'll take your advice and put it in the homebrew sections. As for fluff wise, I just like the idea of a non-negative energy undead. One of my friends used to always play a Tiefling with the tomb tainted soul feat, or a Dread Necromancer, or a Gravetouched Ghoul. Now that I had the opportunity to play an undead, I don't want to retread those paths, cause they were never fun for the rest of the party.

[Deadline]

Wait, are you seriously making a cheap, LA +0, good-aligned Lich? That's ... that's no where near any sort of balanced.

[Kon Owens]

To be fair, it has no where the power of a Lich, and is basically a re-skin of the necropolitan template, which is already a thing. But, if it does seem to good, any suggestions on how to balance it?

[Deadline]

To be fair, it has no where the power of a Lich, and is basically a re-skin of the necropolitan template, which is already a thing. But, if it does seem to good, any suggestions on how to balance it?

First suggestion would be to eliminate the phylactery entirely. It's not really a re-skin, your template is flatly better than Necropolitan in almost every way. And Necropolitan is already really, really good.

Second suggestion, if you don't want to get rid of the whole "can't ever be killed" thing, add LA. Probably LA +2 on top of the other costs you've written there.

Edit: Oh, wait, the Phylactery is even better than a Lich's phylactery, because it's also an item familiar. Yeesh. Maybe up it to +3 LA? Man, that still makes it almost a no-brainer for anyone to take.

[Kon Owens]

To be honest, I never really wanted a "cant ever be killed" effect. I figured adding the Soul Item would act as a gold and money sink, and weak spot for the template, justifying the LA +0. As I listed in the template, the 5000 GP to take the template is accrued as Debt on your character, the Soul Item drains your Exp gain, making you level slower, and to get any of the special abilities it might have, you have to pay gold equal to an item familiars Exp cost to increase its level.

What if changing the item to make it have to be a weapon or armor? That would prevent you just hiding it away like a Phylactery, or maybe forcing the character to keep the item on their person? Take up an item slot? Or if the Template uses up your first level feat slot (effectively the item familiar feat), and prevents you from taking the actual Item Familiar feat at 3rd level? I dunno, something like that maybe?

[Deadline]

To be honest, I never really wanted a "cant ever be killed" effect.

I guess my main question here would be "then why did you give it one?"

If it isn't important to the template, why is it even there?

[Kon Owens]

Like I said, I designed it as a weakness in the template. Its like a giant target you can destroy to kill the character. But if it does seem out of place, it would make sense to remove it then.

[Deadline]

Like I said, I designed it as a weakness in the template. Its like a giant target you can destroy to kill the character. But if it does seem out of place, it would make sense to remove it then.

I'm not convinced there is any way to make Lich-style regeneration a viable LA +0 option. If it isn't necessary, I'd drop it. Again, if all you are trying to do here is create a Deathless version of the Necropolitan, then just use the Necropolitan crunch, switch out the type to Deathless (and the details to things appropriate to Deathless), and put your own fluff in.

Here, I'll do the crunch for you:
Size and Type: The creature's type changes to Deathless, and it gains the augmented subtype. Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.
Hit Dice: Increase to D12
Special Qualities: An Eternal Citizen retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below.
Turn Resistance (EX): An Eternal Citizen has +2 turn resistance.
Unnatural Resilience (EX): Eternal Citizens automatically heal hit point damage and ability damage at the same rate as a living creature. Positive energy (such as from a Disrupt Undead spell) heals Eternal Citizens.


It's also important to note that Deathless creatures are not necessarily Incorporeal. Look at the Deathless type at the beginning of the monster section in the BoED, there's nothing in there about being incorporeal.

If you are keen on the whole incorporeal ghost thing (Sacred Watcher is just a Ghost with the fluff swapped and a couple of the evil abilities altered/removed), then use the savage progressions ghost template with the type switched to Deathless, and the abilities replaced with some of those from Sacred Watcher.

[Sith_Happens]

Like I said, I designed it as a weakness in the template. Its like a giant target you can destroy to kill the character. But if it does seem out of place, it would make sense to remove it then.

Unless they do what any remotely intelligent person who wants an item familiar does, i.e.- make it a ring and wear gloves over it.

[Kon Owens]

Yeah, you're right. A plain re-skin makes more sense than whatever the hell I was doing. Thanks for smacking some sense into me. This version works much better.