pros and cons psionics in campains

[Kimras]

so im dming a campaign and one of my players want to play a psionic and im willing to read the books and learn they rules for them. they are something I usually avoid since to me they don't seem to fit in to D&D but im open to change my mind about them.

[Troacctid]

Pros: Really cool classes that are loads of fun to play and fairly well balanced. Everything you need is available for free on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/).
Cons: You need to learn the rules for the subsystem.

[Necroticplague]

pro:More balanced than magic for the most part. More intuitive than normal spellcasting (it's the MP system from every video game ever, except that 'fire' and 'fira' and 'firaga' are just the same spell with different amounts of mana dumped into them, instead of different spells). No annoying fiddling around with components.Tashlatora makes unarmed fighter builds more viable.

cons: like spellcasting, has some harsh abuse possible[astral seed+fusion, various tricks into getting Bestow Power to let you gain PP back]. Erudite is bonkers, STP erudite is completely ridiculous. Lurk is rather on the weak side. King of Smack builds can tear up melee with Psionic Warrior.

And remember a golden rule: You can't spend more PP on one power then your ML.

[atemu1234]

pro:More balanced than magic for the most part. More intuitive than normal spellcasting (it's the MP system from every video game ever, except that 'fire' and 'fira' and 'firaga' are just the same spell with different amounts of mana dumped into them, instead of different spells). No annoying fiddling around with components.Tashlatora makes unarmed fighter builds more viable.

cons: like spellcasting, has some harsh abuse possible[astral seed+fusion, various tricks into getting Bestow Power to let you gain PP back]. Erudite is bonkers, STP erudite is completely ridiculous. Lurk is rather on the weak side. King of Smack builds can tear up melee with Psionic Warrior.

And remember a golden rule: You can't spend more PP on one power then your ML.

And here I thought the golden rule was don't make the DM angry.

[Jormengand]

And here I thought the golden rule was don't make the DM angry.

Yeah, well, trying to spend more than one PP/ML will probably make your DM angry, so...

[Prime32]

so im dming a campaign and one of my players want to play a psionic and im willing to read the books and learn they rules for them. they are something I usually avoid since to me they don't seem to fit in to D&D but im open to change my mind about them."I can shoot fire from my hands by concentrating" fits into a standard fantasy setting less than "I can memorise how to create gunpowder but the knowledge erases itself from my mind every time I do so"? :smallconfused:

Heck, the sorcerer fluff of "I instinctively know how to create gunpowder twice per day because my great-grandfather was a white dragon" is so weird that most players just use the psionic fluff instead without thinking about it.

[Sian]

if the fluff is a problem (why?), then merely retool it into being an old semi-forgotten way of using magic, with full psionic/magic transparency

[sleepyphoenixx]

How do psionics not fit into D&D?
Mind Flayers are a pretty iconic monster after all and they've always been described as psionic, before the psionics system existed. And they're hardly the only ones.

The one thing i can see someone having problems with is the overabundance of crystals in psionic fluff, but that's pretty easy to ignore.

As for cons, there aren't really any if you don't have a problem learning the subsystem. Psionics isn't any more broken than magic.
Sure there are a few broken combos like the various infinite PP tricks but that kind of thing is pretty easy to prevent.
On the other hand there are far less powers than spells to keep track of, and it also keeps the paperwork down because you don't have to keep track of what's stored in individual spell slots.

[Red Fel]

if the fluff is a problem (why?), then merely retool it into being an old semi-forgotten way of using magic, with full psionic/magic transparency

This. Psionics/magic transparency is the default rule, anyway. Refluff it as an even-more-intrinsic version of Sorcerers. Where Sorcerers channel some internal arcane anomaly that allows them to harness magic through force of personality (i.e. Cha), Psionics represents a form of internal magic as well, one achieved through mental awareness and self-discipline (Int). Much like the Wizard studies the arcane, harnessing its powers through research and study (Int), the Psion studies similar cosmic forces; but rather than acquiring power from arcane sources, the Psion's is internal. Similarly, the Psychic Warrior is a sort of spiritual fighter, harnessing his inner strength and self-awareness (Wis) to augment his martial prowess. In some ways, Psionics-users are more like Monks were supposed to be, all mystical and inwardly-focused and stuff.

Also crystals. Because crystals are awesome, and magic.

With respect to the original question, Troacctid and Necroticplague got it right. The pros are the varied, reasonably balanced, and fun options that Psionics brings to the table; the cons are that you have to learn a new subsystem, and all the cons that come with Tier 1 casting (which applies pretty much only to the primary caster Psionics classes, such as the Psion).

[Powerdork]

As noted earlier in the thread by others, a big pro to psionics is only having one resource to track for spells, instead of how many spells you have per level (or worse, how many of a given spell you prepared).

[charcoalninja]

Pros: Everything!
Cons: Not a one. Seriously.

It's an amazing subsystem that should be encouraged at every opportunity

[Grod_The_Giant]

One potential Con that hasn't been mentioned is that psionic characters have a slightly different endurance track than spellcasters. They're much better at going nova, since they can dump all their points into high-level (or high-level equivalent) powers. On the other hand, they don't seem to be as good at prolonged combat days, since their powers don't auto-scale like low-level spells do. (And they don't have any equivalent of reserve feats, as far as I know).

Don't get me wrong, I like the system. It's just something worth thinking about when you design adventures.

[Sian]

all in all, its probably the most solid subsystem, even if you aren't accounting the support it have naturally gotten by being the first subsystem (including in this case Complete Psionic which is often panned for being poorly thought out and worse writen)

[sleepyphoenixx]

One potential Con that hasn't been mentioned is that psionic characters have a slightly different endurance track than spellcasters. They're much better at going nova, since they can dump all their points into high-level (or high-level equivalent) powers. On the other hand, they don't seem to be as good at prolonged combat days, since their powers don't auto-scale like low-level spells do. (And they don't have any equivalent of reserve feats, as far as I know).

Don't get me wrong, I like the system. It's just something worth thinking about when you design adventures.

A 20th level Psion can safely be assumed to have at least 450pp. That's the equivalent of 22 9th level spells. That should really be enough to get through a normal day of adventuring even if you use the equivalent of a 9th level power every round of combat.
If you find yourself blowing those all in one combat you're either abusing Synchronicity and other action economy shenanigans or you're ignoring the max pp = ML rule.

[DrMartin]

If you find yourself blowing those all in one combat you're either abusing Synchronicity and other action economy shenanigans or you're ignoring the max pp = ML rule.

Regarding pp-economy, and even worse than Synchronicity abuse: as soon as you get to 11th level and Temporal Acceleration you can always be just a couple of rounds away from running empty on PP. This becomes worst with leveling up. At 11th level you have maybe 150 pp, and can spend up to half of it in a single round (spend, with overchannel, 13 for an extended temporal acceleration, that gives you 2 extra turns - so 13*3 for your three standard actions, and up to 13*2 for your swift actions while accelerated, for a theoretical maximum of 78pp in a round).
At 20th level if you have 450pp like in your example, you can spend 21pp on a twice augmented, extended temporal acceleration that gives you 6 rounds of extra time. If you crank out fully augmented powers with all of your actions after that you can spend up to 7*23 (standard action) + 21 (your first acceleration) + 6*23 (manifestation of a swift power every round) for a total of 320pp.

This is mostly theoretical and won't probably happen in game as it's not a terribly effective strategy, but it's a possibility nonetheless. I guess just a tiny bit of Op-Fu could push those numbers way higher but it's not really the point here :D

While playing a psionic character moderation and combat powers with a duration (astral construct, gemstone breath, metamorphosis, ...) are the only thing between you and running dry on every single encounter :D

[Zaq]

Definitely make sure to stick to Magic/Psionics Transparency. It's the default rule, and it's that way for a reason. A lot of the complaints I see about psionics (both in person and on forums like this one) stem from the GM breaking Magic/Psionics Transparency, then complaining that nothing counters psionics and they work weirdly. Stick to the default transparency rules, and psionics plays nice with the rest of the world, no matter whether it's just one PC using it or if half the world uses it. Things get weird when you get rid of transparency.

Also, it's been mentioned, but it's worth repeating. You cannot spend more PP than your Manifester Level on a single manifestation. Yes, it's that important.

[endur]

Sadly, many players overlook this.


Also, it's been mentioned, but it's worth repeating. You cannot spend more PP than your Manifester Level on a single manifestation. Yes, it's that important.

One issue with subsystems is not only do you have to learn it, but you are also relying on the players to learn it. The odds are that someone is going to get a rule wrong. Although this happens with the core rules as well.

[Telok]

Psions concerned about endurance have three options. The first is traditional rationing of power. Drop an extended astral construct and run around playing flanker and caster-grapple (or throw nets, no proficency needed) is a viable play style up through the low teen levels. It's similar, and less strong than, a druid who summons then wildshapes.
Option two is to dip a level in a full BAB class with armor proficencies and blow a feat on Track. This allows decent low level melee combat ability and better class features at higher levels.
Option three is the recharge tricks. The easiest, most RAW, and weakest recharge trick uses Wilder levels, Races of Stone, and three or four feats. It recharges the psychic in like ten minutes and in exchange they take a decently hard whack to their casting power for the first ten levels. Wilders suck if you want versatility.

One thing that scares some DMs is the psion nova. But that also burns the psion's power out real fast, just like a wizard except they don't have reserve feats and low level slots as backup. You use the same tactic, up the fight difficulty or string things out into multiple fights

[Zanos]

One potential Con that hasn't been mentioned is that psionic characters have a slightly different endurance track than spellcasters. They're much better at going nova, since they can dump all their points into high-level (or high-level equivalent) powers. On the other hand, they don't seem to be as good at prolonged combat days, since their powers don't auto-scale like low-level spells do. (And they don't have any equivalent of reserve feats, as far as I know).

Don't get me wrong, I like the system. It's just something worth thinking about when you design adventures.
Non damaging psionic powers scale just as well as non-damaging spells most of the time. Psionic grease is just as mean as the arcane version, and it's dirt cheap.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you blow the equivalent of 6-7 turns worth of powers in a single encounter you should run out.
Most spellcasters throw 1-3 spells per encounter and reserve the rest of their stamina for boss-level fights while letting summons or melee mop up the debuffed/controlled enemies.
Just because a psion can blow his entire arsenal in a single encounter doesn't mean that he needs to, or should. You don't see spellcasters waste their highest level slots on mooks either.

[Petrocorus]

PROS: Already said by the others. Fairly balanced, flavorful, etc.
And the Psychic Warrior can be a pretty good substitute for Monk or for Duskblade.

CONS: A new sub-sytem to learn for you and your players.
A few broken tricks that you need to learn to avoid them. I suggest to ban or at least limit the Linked Power feat.
A lack a many interesting and balanced PrC for your players. But you can adapt some arcane PrC. Or try a look into DSP's books.


A 20th level Psion can safely be assumed to have at least 450pp. That's the equivalent of 22 9th level spells. That should really be enough to get through a normal day of adventuring even if you use the equivalent of a 9th level power every round of combat.


But that still less than the 20th level Sorcerer equivalent amount of PP.