Mixing Bard and Rogue

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I was thinking about a hypothetical Bard/Rogue build. It should work quite well, as the two classes have many complementary traits. Both rely on DEX and both have features to increase their skills. But they also have enough unique features to give to the other as not to be redundant. But as I puzzle over break-points and class features, I find that while it's easy to make a fully functional character, I don't find I'm creating many specific advantages over a pure bard or rogue.

Generally, either spellcasting or sneak attack progression gets cut short by taking levels of the other class. There is also overlap in the use for the bonus action/reaction, but not to an unmanageable degree. General survivability is improved by mixing Valor Bard with rogue, getting extra AC (esp. with a shield) as well as Dodge and Evasion. Utility is fantastic, doubling down on skills as well as from spells.

So how much Rogue in your Bard (Or Bard in your Rogue) does one want? I suppose this depends on where your focus lies.

So with a light touch of Bard, you can make a Rogue with extra utility. You'd have Lore Bard 3 or 6-7 with rogue in the rest. Extra Expertise, skills, Inspiration and a dash of spells. With Bard 3 you will still get WIS saves and the lvl 17 rogue archetype feature, as well as an extra 2d6 sneak attack. Bard 6-7 gets magical secrets, font of inspiration (d8) and more magic. Season to taste.

If mixing with Valor Bard, then in my opinion one wants to get Bard to 10th level at least. This is a half-caster build, has extra attack, tons o'skills, and up to 5d6 sneak attack.

Math time

So our theoretical Bard 10/ Rogue 10, does it do the damage?

Let's compare a pair of archers.
Rogue 20: 1d8 + 10d6 + 5 = 4.5+10*(3.5)+5 = 44.5
Crossbow Expert: 2*(1d6 +5) + 10d6 = 52

Bard10/Rogue10: 2*(1d8+5) + 5d6 = 36.5
Crossbow Expert: 3*(1d6+5) + 5d6 = 43
Swift Quiver: 4*(1d8+5) + 5d6 = 55.5

So, as far as pure at-will, the hybrid is a little behind. This is expected, given this is the trade-off being made for being a half-caster.

One could also do Valor Bard 3/6 just for a splash of magic and some martial abilities, but I think the rogue would usually be better served by dipping Fighter 1/2 and keeping the sneak attack progression in that case.

Anyhow, I was just thinking about this on my lunch break. What do you think? Have any of you guys made or used any interesting combinations?

[Easy_Lee]

Valor Bard 7 / Arcane Trickster 13 could add some interesting bard options, extra expertise, extra attack, and more casting while retaining most of the Rogue features.

That said, I don't think the two mix particularly well. Both have plenty of uses for their bonus action, and bard doesn't add enough combat features to make up for the lost rogue levels in terms of damage. Swift quiver is inferior to haste, which would be a better spell to try to acquire via multiclass.

I think a fighter makes a better rogue combo due to the fighting style and fighters generally having few uses for their bonus action. One interesting example would be an Eldritch Knight 7 / AT rogue 13, who can shocking grasp and bonus action attack for SA in the same round and has lots of spells to choose from, in addition to having a superior number of feats (6). This kind of build would be similar to a bard rogue but would have additional combat options.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I agree that the rogue isn't getting much out of adding bard levels in terms of combat ability. But on the other side of the coin, the bard is gaining a lot of useful combat features by giving up some of their spellcasting. They do lose out on some choice high level spells of course (Mass Suggestion, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Regenerate, Resurrection, Forcecage, Teleport, Dominate Monster, True Polymorph, the Power Words, etc.).

I think, if it can compare favorably to a Ranger or a Dex-based Paladin, then the build has enough going for it.

[Easy_Lee]

I agree that the rogue isn't getting much out of adding bard levels in terms of combat ability. But on the other side of the coin, the bard is gaining a lot of useful combat features by giving up some of their spellcasting. They do lose out on some choice high level spells of course (Mass Suggestion, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Regenerate, Resurrection, Forcecage, Teleport, Dominate Monster, True Polymorph, the Power Words, etc.).

I think, if it can compare favorably to a Ranger or a Dex-based Paladin, then the build has enough going for it.

I'm not convinced that it can be compared favorably. Paladins do some great damage and are hard to stop, and rangers have an eclectic set of features that depend heavily on the situation. Bards are supposed to bring lots of variety and utility, while rogues are supposed to bring consistent damage, make good scouts, and handle the most important skill checks consistently (whichever one they choose to focus). Mixing the two leaves the character with less variety and utility from bard and less damage and skill focus from rogue (delayed access to it if nothing else).

[Person_Man]

That said, I don't think the two mix particularly well.

I concur with this.

In would add that full casters are awesome at high levels because they get access to (a small number of) awesome, encounter winning, reality altering, high level spells. Any multiclass combination delays or removes that. So while it might work out at mid-levels, eventually you're trading spells like Foresight and True Polymorph for abilities like Cunning Action. Cunning Action is great, but its not on the same plane of existence as True Polymorph.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Alright, let's compare and contrast then.

Vs Paladin

-Paladin wins on raw damage. From what I've seen in the past threads, I know that pallies are one of the top damage dealers due to Smites. Pure Rogues can compete, but as shown above the Bard/Rogue lags behind. Inspiration does allow for party damage to be increased a little.
-Paladins have the larger hit die. Paladins also get Lay on Hands and Auras which bolster defenses. ACs are similar. Bard/Rogue gains Evasion and uncanny dodge to reduce incoming damage, as well as having great tools to avoid danger, such as expert stealth and cunning action. The Bard/Rogue gets Song of Rest and Inspiration for healing and bolstering saves, which come online earlier but are arguably lesser than the paladin features. If using the Thief archetype with the healer feat also allows for extra heals on bonus actions.
-Paladins must operate in melee to use divine smite. Bard/Rogue is equally effective at range and in melee.
-Paladin is a prepared caster. Bard/Rogue gets cantrips, and can eventually get any spell. Before magical secrets the spell lists are fairly comparable, each with particular advantages.
-Bard/Rogue has fantastic skills. Which spell list has more utility is debatable, but I'd say paladin's prepared casting trumps the bard's ritual casting.

Conclusions: Paladin is definitely stronger if one plans to be in melee. In most other situations Bard/Rogue is on par or better.

Vs Ranger

-Damage: As before:

Bard10/Rogue10: 2*(1d8+5) + 5d6 = 36.5
Crossbow Expert: 3*(1d6+5) + 5d6 = 43
Swift Quiver: 4*(1d8+5) + 5d6 = 55.5

Ranger is tricky to calculate damage for, as the types of attacks made are situational, so I'll calculate a variety.
Hunter Ranger 20 vs single target: 2*(1d8+5 +1d6 (Mark))+1d8 (Colossus Slayer) = 30.5
Same, but with X-bow Expert: 3*(1d6+5+1d6)+1d8 = 40.5
Horde Breaker: 2*(1d8 +5 +1d6) + 1d8+5 = 35.5
Same, but with X-bow Expert: 3*(1d6+5+1d6)+1d6+5 = 44.5
Horde Breaker and Swift Quiver: 5*(1d8+5) = 47.5
Volley vs 6 targets: 6*(1d8+5) = 57

So we see that the two are at least on par with one another, the Bard/Rogue being better at single target and the Ranger excelling at AoE damage. Of course, Bard/Rogue has access to Shatter, later Fireball, and all the AoE control spells one could ever want.
Additionally, Ranger gains a fighting style, buffing his numbers a little.

-AC will be identical. Rangers have the larger hit die. Rangers gain Evasion or Uncanny dodge, not both. Bard/Rogue still has their variety of healing and bolstering features as discussed above.
-Both are equally effective at range or in melee
-Spells are a toss up. Bard/Rogue has a larger list available, especially if using Arcane Trickster. Ranger has a nice progression, getting unique spells tailored to it's role earlier. If forced I'd choose the Bard/Rogue.
-Ranger gets some unique utility features. Bard/Rogue has expertise and a ton of skill proficiencies.

Conclusions: Ranger is likely the stronger choice during early levels, as whichever class in the multi-class build is lacking levels will be a weak spot for the Bard/Rogue. Hard to say if/when the ranger gets overtaken.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

If I took arcane trickster as the rogue subclass, I could take Find Familiar as one of my spells. With that and expertise in survival I could really sell the pseudo-Ranger concept.