New DM: Property and Commerce

[LadyDroskit]

Hi all.

So I'm a new DM and I just started a new 3.5 setting, a normal DnD world with magic and monsters etc. I wanted to see how things may go running off the cuff but I had some basic ideas and places I could throw them in. However, my players twisted around on me and began buying up land, making their own town, and taking over abandoned mines...

I have no real experience with commerce, property or trading and it appears this is going to be a big thing for the group, now.

I was wondering if anyone had any advice for a game of this type or suggestions for the books I could read to get a better idea of how to handle this part of the game?

Thanks!

Lady Droskit

[weckar]

Switch to a different system?

If that's not an option, maybe get a more experienced DM, because this is some complicated stuff in 3.5. Not much out there, rules-wise.

[Karl Aegis]

If corporations are people, why can't they have levels? Just give the properties a level and assign it appropriate wealth by level. They gain experience by completing objectives, just like PCs do.

[DrMartin]

Pathfinder has some rules that you could use as inspiration:
Downtime activities (covers also players owning business and such things) are discussed here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/downtime) (and if you think they are don't deserve nice things there are some guidelines about taxes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/taxation) too), if they are a step beyond there are rules on managing a kingdom here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-building).

[EyethatBinds]

You don't need to be an expert on commerce or land values. While not ideal, it may be better to be reactionary to what the players attempt. If they want to buy land, what would stop them? A greedy baron, a goblin infestation, or even a curse would prevent the sale of the land.

If you want to put the players on the defensive for a change, try having another wealthy person going for their land or property for an unknown reason. Or raise their taxes based on lies a member of the local king's court has been spreading.

[Janthkin]

Bandits, drought, peasant revolts, mines that delved too deep, marauding/migrating monsters.... Maybe landowners of a certain size need to be ennobled; maybe they owe their liege a tithe of armsmen for a specified period of time (perhaps even themselves). Your players have done you a favor, as they've provided you an endless series of short- and long-term plot options. My favorite with land-rich parties is to give them more encounters than they can physically handle themselves, so they have to contract with lesser adventurers to handle the little stuff, and trust some functionaries to handle a lot of the day-to-day; this leads to trusted subordinates, who will usually turn greedy & treacherous at inconvenient times.

As to the mechanics, the first rule of DM'ing is that everyone should be having fun, but the second rule is that the PCs should never have everything they want. Give them outsized income numbers from their mines...but then have all but WBL-appropriate amounts consumed by taxes, overhead, penalties, etc.

[Telonius]

Stronghold Builder's Guide might have something there for you. Personally, I'd say that it's probably fine. More property means more potential plot hooks for them to follow. They have a mine? The miners discovered something weird and need the boss man to come investigate. They have a town? They have people depending on them now, and lots of people wanting to curry their favor. You can use that!

About a thousand years ago (or maybe seven), I made up a homebrew Miner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-91820.html) NPC prestige class. Might give you some ideas, if you want to send them down to the mines.

[Scorponok]

A lot of players overlook the fact that just because you gather/mine/farm X amount of resources worth Y amount, there is no guarantee they'll be able to sell all of it in the town they are based in.

An interesting twist would be the landowner who is selling them the land isn't actually the landowner, and when the baron comes back to look at his land, he'll see people stealing from him.

Another plot hook could be they find a mine on the land and start digging, but it leads to the underdark and creatures from there start coming out.

[atemu1234]

A lot of players overlook the fact that just because you gather/mine/farm X amount of resources worth Y amount, there is no guarantee they'll be able to sell all of it in the town they are based in.

An interesting twist would be the landowner who is selling them the land isn't actually the landowner, and when the baron comes back to look at his land, he'll see people stealing from him.

Another plot hook could be they find a mine on the land and start digging, but it leads to the underdark and creatures from there start coming out.

My knowledge of the underdark says that that would be a pretty deep mine.

But as to making money, they should hire X people (hereby called miners) to do Y labor, each of whom makes a Profession check (or just assume ten for each, if they exceed a number that rolling is feasible), each of whom makes 2d20 gp for the company (use an online dice roller for this one), and gets paid according to the Profession check. This way, you make the profit, and they can do this for 10d% years, or more.

[Tarvus]

This is something my players definitely have a proclivity for. As others have said, this is not a problem to be solved. Rather its an amazing source of plot hooks.
Unlike the others though I don't suggest you find ways to cheat them of their wealth. If you need too, you can use that sort of thing as stall tactics, but if you're willing (i.e. if you don't mind partially discarding a campaign you've already written) there are better ways.

Put simply? Have them play on a higher stage. They own towns and mines, they have protect them. So they hire men, outfit private security, build defenses etc. Wealth now becomes less about providing power at an individual level and more about providing Political Power to your Organization. Plot hooks and political power-games and high consequence diplomacy provide incentive to spend wealth elsewhere. Do it right and deciding whether to provide your mercenary company with Masterwork weapons or to buy your Warblade a shiny new Belt of Battle becomes a serious consideration.

Its not an easy playstyle, especially for a new DM. It can mean changing up campaign ideas and you can't rely nearly so much on premade adventures. Also it definitely means that a semi-tacit agreement with the players that the wealth does have to be split between the 2 as above. This can be enforced however, if they don't spend the money to defend them, you can justify taking away the assets. But its fun, great for players with different Optimisation goals - characters that like high-op have innovative problems and solutions to solve, while the ones in it to bash stuff still have that, and its fantastic for Roleplayers & Rollplayers if done right.

My suggestions for playing that sort of style:

Have a consistent universe - prepare general backstories, understand where information you give the players comes from and who is involved with what WHEN YOU INTRODUCE IT.
Have the players help you - talk to them about the sort of playstyle they want, and talk what you can reasonably provide. Its a hard task that needs prep time. Make sure you both understand that
Make sure that you heavily incentivise the Organisational side of the playstyle. This is much easier if they love the RP aspect, but its not exclusively for them. Nonmechanical bonuses are great for this. A stronghold has "value" but you can't take it on adventures. An armoury there might be a huge money sink and give the Melee guy the feeling that he has a lot of options when he wants them, but he can still only take 1 or 2 weapons when he leaves (Again, agreement). A trophy room is the same - if they have a place to display that huge diamond eyeball they took from the DracoDemiLich they're less likely to try and exchange it for fluid wealth.
Make the Organisational Power mean something. This is part of the above, but it warrants specificity. Make them feel they're having an effect on the greater world. And especially Let them use it to get their moments of Awesome. Sometimes its OK to let the BBEG be taken down by the Dragon fire support the players called in a hard-won favour for. Build shorter adventures for this sort of thing, and adventures where their diverse options allow for a scalpel where else they'd use a hammer. That way when and if you decide to separate them temporarily from their usual benefit it becomes a special struggle, not just the Worf Effect.

Not for everyone, but it can be so awesome. Just my 2cp.

[LadyDroskit]

Thank you, everyone, there are tons of great ideas here!

[Arbane]

Just so you know, D&D's economy doesn't make a whole lot of sense - most mid-level characters are going to be carrying a small city-state's GNP worth of magic items and such. And that's without even mentioning the ways spellcasters can break the economy with a little effort.

[Nibbens]

I do like what some posters have said: just because they mine a certain thing that's valuable, it doesn't mean the hamlet they go to will be able to buy all of it off of them. But the local general store owner does know about a bigger town a few weeks travel to the west...

Aaaaaand plot-hook!

[Cirrylius]

Pathfinder has some rules that you could use as inspiration:
Downtime activities (covers also players owning business and such things) are discussed here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/downtime) (and if you think they are don't deserve nice things there are some guidelines about taxes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/taxation) too), if they are a step beyond there are rules on managing a kingdom here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-building).

Are these from the Ultimate Campaign book?

[Sacrieur]

In my more medieval countries, only nobles can own land.

What you CAN do though, is contract out part of the land owned by a noble. This means you'd have to pay a "rent" every so often.