Redeeming an evil creature through charm/compulsion?

[Jowgen]

You're an exalted good character in a prison full of low-level low-lives and lets say you have the ability to use charm person and hypnotism at will.

Step 1: You go from cell to cell, spamming charm person until everyone is friendly to you. Those who make their saves will know that someone tried to use magic on them, but as they won't know what kind, one can easily dismiss this as you doing something to check their health or whatever.

Step 2: You go on to attempt to give them the order to forego any mental resistance against you (because you're there to help, or whatever). If that isn't something they'd normally do while friendly, an opposed charisma check would result, so this may or may not work in some cases.

Step 3: You start to use hypnotism, against which the prisoners for which step 2 was successful should forgo their saves.

Step 4: While hypnotism is active and the prisoners are thus friendly and devoting their rapt attention to you, you talk to them of turning to a live of good and the caveats of living evil.

Step 5: You use hypnotism to give the order to deeply contemplate what you said about good vs evil, including all the ways in which it may better their lives/afterlives if they took it on board.


Provided this all succeeds, the prisoners will be under the impression that you just came to talk to them and what you said made a lot of sense. They'll think about their wrong-doings, how they'll otherwise burn in the abyss/baator/pandemonium, and by all rights any of them that aren't irredeemably evil (up to a max of 8 HD) should set out onto a path of redemption.

The question here -other whether this works as written-, is whether this 5-step program qualifies as something exalted good to do, and whether the prisoners actually find true redemption if they've been set on that path via mind-affecting magic.

Note: we're presuming that Fanatic is not an achievable attitude here, because that would just be overkill.

Thoughts anyone? :smallsmile:

[Red Fel]

The question here -other whether this works as written-, is whether this 5-step program qualifies as something exalted good to do, and whether the prisoners actually find true redemption if they've been set on that path via mind-affecting magic.

That's actually two questions.

1. Yes, it's an Exalted thing to do. Exalted Good doesn't care about freedom, that's a C/L issue. It cares about Good. Don't believe me? The spell Sanctify the Wicked imprisons an Evil creature for one year, fundamentally altering it from the ground up, until it emerges ready to embrace the light.

Some people would call that a combination of wrongful imprisonment, torture, and Stockholm Syndrome. The book calls it a Sanctified spell.

2. No, they would not find true redemption. They are, at best, acting under a compulsion. And much like a Good creature who commits Evil acts while under compulsion can be forgiven (or seek Atonement) and return to the light, an Evil creature who is compelled to pursue a Good life will return to his true nature eventually. Now, there are ways to "convert" a creature to Good by force. The Emissary of Barachiel - also from BoED - is a perfect example; it has a class ability that allows it to preach to a target, and progressively shift their alignment towards LG. (Again, this is an example of Exalted being totally okay with forcing a subject to change, because making someone Good is a Good thing, period.) But even assuming that the actions you're suggesting do what you suggest by RAW, they don't actually create a permanent alignment change. Your suggestions make them friendly towards you, and encourage them to do one thing for you - namely, to reconsider their lives. After that, even assuming they have a momentary moral lapse, they will still ultimately revert; more likely, however, they will consider their spiritual fate, and not give a hoot.

[Keltest]

I don't know if its "exalted", since even youre average joe-shmoe good cleric should be trying to redeem evildoers at least to a point. However so long as the mental compulsion is only to give it careful thought, and allows them to come to their own conclusion, I believe they could legitimately attempt to turn their lives around, circumstances granting.

However its important to note that most evil afterlives aren't deliberately unpleasant (that's bad PR for team Evil), its just more of a side effect of having nobody but evil people live in your plane of existence, if it occurs at all. A Lawful Evil soldier who goes around conquering other Lawful Evil armies and rises through the ranks under their own merits would be quite pleased with that as an afterlife.

Edit: Also, as Mr Red Fel pointed out, theres nothing guaranteeing that a period of thorough introspection will be enough to enact a permanent change.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Yes, according to the BoED using mind control to force an evil creature to be good is a really good thing to do. Exalted-level good.
It doesn't matter how you get them to do good. The only thing the book cares about is the end result.

I have no idea what they were thinking when they came to that conclusion, but it is what it is.:smalltongue:

[Duke of Urrel]

You're an exalted good character in a prison full of low-level low-lives and lets say you have the ability to use charm person and hypnotism at will.

Step 1: You go from cell to cell, spamming charm person until everyone is friendly to you. As per page 204 of the player's handbook, they should not notice failed attempts.

The target of an Enchantment spell fails to notice if the Will save fails, not if the spell fails.

Not that this matters when your enchantment finally succeeds. When it does, you've made a friend, and all is forgiven.


Step 2: You go on to attempt to give them the order to forego any mental resistance against you (because you're there to help, or whatever). If that isn't something they'd normally do while friendly, an opposed charisma check would result, so this may or may not work in some cases.

Step 3: You start to use hypnotism, against which the prisoners for which step 2 was successful should forgo their saves.

I don't believe this works. No Enchantment spell actually changes a creature's will; it only changes the creature's behavior, or in the case of a Charm spell its feelings toward you. A Compulsion spell makes a creature act against its own will, but does not change its will.

I would allow you to use Diplomacy skill to change a creature's mind, though. You might persuade a creature – even more easily a Friendly creature – to forego its saving throw against your spell, provided that you are sincere about trying to help the creature.


Step 4: While hypnotism is active and the prisoners are thus friendly and devoting their rapt attention to you, you talk to them of turning to a live of good and the caveats of living evil.

Step 5: You use hypnotism to give the order to deeply contemplate what you said about good vs evil, including all the ways in which it may better their lives/afterlives if they took it on board.

Provided this all succeeds, the prisoners will be under the impression that you just came to talk to them and what you said made a lot of sense. …

It's possible. The only point of debate is how long it would take. I think a creature becomes Good by doing Good. If we're interested in reforming the prisoners, prison should provide them with some opportunity to practice doing Good deeds. If they get some of that, then maybe over a year or two, some prisoners should start showing some alignment changes.

But I believe this change has to be be more natural than magical. I don't believe coercion of any kind creates Goodness by itself. Only the gentlest kind of magical coercion works, and it works only marginally better than natural rehabilitation.

As to whether it's morally Good to try to reform prisoners in this way, I'd say yes. Enchantment for a Good purpose, with no harm done to the subject of the Enchantment spell and no effect except to make the subject more open to persuasion, is not Evil.

[Jowgen]

Okay, considering the Sanctify the Wicked spell and Emissary of Barachiel class, I am certainly convinced now that this 5-step program most certainly seems to fit the BoED's twisted view of "Goooooood

The "actual redemption?" part does seem to be the crux here.

I don't entirely buy the "inevitable return to evil" idea. A Paladin who slipped into evil might find atonement, but he must be genuinely repentant of his actions, which depends completely on the paladin himself. Likewise, an evil character who went good, wouldn't simply return to evil for no reason if good is working out for him.

I can see that the afterlife bit won't necessarily matter (unless their destination is Baator. Even Fiendish Codex acknowledges that no one would want to go there if they knew what it was really like).

I certainly acknowledge that deep introspection by itself won't necessarily be enough for an alignment change, but then again... what else can a guy in prison do to try and better himself? Even if they were out in the world, it all has to start with them seeing the error of their ways, and if they can't do that no matter how hard they (under compulsion try), surely they count as irredeemable anyway. In which case, it's perfectly exalted to kill them, as they'll never be good.

How about adding either of both of these two things to this 5-Step program:

1) At some point after the Charm person to forgo mental resistance, you make a redemption diplomacy check as per BoED p. 28. The Diplomacy check doesn't really matter, as they'll choose to fail due to compulsion. 7-14 checks later, they'll be irrevocably redeemed according to BoED.

2) Add a care-package. Help the prisoner to relocate and start a new life in a good environment after they get free and have their aura switched to good, as to avoid relapse.


Two questions at this point: what ways are there to determine enemy HD (for Hynotism use), and at what point could one expect a change in aura?


EDIT: to respond Duke of Urrel


The target of an Enchantment spell fails to notice if the Will save fails, not if the spell fails.

Oh yeah, the "creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack." clause. But I agree, no real repercussion here.


I don't believe this works. No Enchantment spell actually changes a creature's will; it only changes the creature's behavior, or in the case of a Charm spell its feelings toward you. A Compulsion spell makes a creature act against its own will, but does not change its will.

I would allow you to use Diplomacy skill to change a creature's mind, though. You might persuade a creature – even more easily a Friendly creature – to forego its saving throw against your spell, provided that you are sincere about trying to help the creature.


A compulsion by definition "forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works" (PHB 173). Charm Person isn't a compulsion, but it does allow one to order a subject to do something it wouldn't ordinarily do, which should include mental actions, such as forgoing opposition to invading mental forces. With diplomacy, you can improve attitude, but even a helpful character has things he won't do for you. Charm person does not have that restriction. Although I suppose a diplomacy to improve to Helpful from friendly might work (arguably).


It's possible. The only point of debate is how long it would take. I think a creature becomes Good by doing Good. If we're interested in reforming the prisoners, prison should provide them with some opportunity to practice doing Good deeds. If they get some of that, then maybe over a year or two, some prisoners should start showing some alignment changes.

But I believe this change has to be be more natural than magical. I don't believe coercion of any kind creates Goodness by itself. Only the gentlest kind of magical coercion works, and it works only marginally better than natural rehabilitation.

As to whether it's morally Good to try to reform prisoners in this way, I'd say yes. Enchantment for a Good purpose, with no harm done to the subject of the Enchantment spell and no effect except to make the subject more open to persuasion, is not Evil.

I am wondering how long it takes for changes in mindset/action to affect actual alignment. I do personally agree that alignment is mostly the result of action than thought, but people -can- change in prison, where there is little good to do. Being nice to their prison-mates for once, being courteous to the guards, listening and caring are all things this limited enviroment can provide. But to speed this process up, I do think that a community service arrangement with the prison would make a great addition to the program :smallsmile:

As for goodness by coercion... according to BoED, it is both super good and totally effective. Also, by adding the redeption-diplomacy check, it should fit right in with the rules I think.

[Keltest]

I mean, if youre going for a literal RAW approach using the BoED rules, there are a lot more straightforward ways to "redeem" the prisoners. Magic mind control and the like, or heck, just find a Helm of Opposite Alignment or similar device for each of them.

If you want actual good, you should be very delicate in what you do with the charms, and making sure that you support them in their quest to change their lives so that they don't have to fall back on Murdering or whatever to make ends meet is something you probably should do as well.

[Jowgen]

I mean, if youre going for a literal RAW approach using the BoED rules, there are a lot more straightforward ways to "redeem" the prisoners. Magic mind control and the like, or heck, just find a Helm of Opposite Alignment or similar device for each of them.

If you want actual good, you should be very delicate in what you do with the charms, and making sure that you support them in their quest to change their lives so that they don't have to fall back on Murdering or whatever to make ends meet is something you probably should do as well.

Helms of Opposite alignment are way to expensive and hard to remove in my book (also, cursed items are generally evil). Full on mental control wouldn't really do much the way I see it, as their actions would in no way be in any part their own choice.

I'd like to think the current approach is very delicate with the charms, and I am working on actual rehab steps :smallsmile:

[Keltest]

Helms of Opposite alignment are way to expensive and hard to remove in my book (also, cursed items are generally evil). Full on mental control wouldn't really do much the way I see it, as their actions would in no way be in any part their own choice.

I'd like to think the current approach is very delicate with the charms, and I am working on actual rehab steps :smallsmile:

In case it wasn't clear, I do not care for the BoED at all.:smalltongue:

[Jowgen]

In case it wasn't clear, I do not care for the BoED at all.:smalltongue:

Oh yes, it's a terrible book in many ways, but I am not going to say no to easy good-points on my quest to Saint-hood :smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

In case it wasn't clear, I do not care for the BoED at all.:smalltongue:

Most don't.

[Bad Wolf]

Well to be fair, what is Good and Evil is decided by the gods, not by petty human morality.

[Crake]

Can I ask where this rules text supposedly on page 204 in the players handbook not noticing failed attempts to charm? My players handbook has spells on page 204. In fact, on page 177, it specifically uses charm person as an example of someone succeeding on a save against it and knowing that someone is trying to use magic against it, though not necessarily knowing what magic.

[Yahzi]

They'll think about their wrong-doings, how they'll otherwise burn in the abyss/baator/pandemonium, and by all rights any of them that aren't irredeemably evil (up to a max of 8 HD) should set out onto a path of redemption.
When doing a thought experiment, it always helps to examine it from the other side.
Suppose you did the same thing on a group of kindly little old ladies at a LG church, but for Team Evil. Would you expect after a good lecture and a charismatic smile for those little old ladies to take up thuggery, theft, and torture as a life-style? Or would you expect them to whack a few heads and then say, regretfully, that even though they loved you and you made a lot of sense, this just wasn't for them?

[Karl Aegis]

When doing a thought experiment, it always helps to examine it from the other side.
Suppose you did the same thing on a group of kindly little old ladies at a LG church, but for Team Evil. Would you expect after a good lecture and a charismatic smile for those little old ladies to take up thuggery, theft, and torture as a life-style? Or would you expect them to whack a few heads and then say, regretfully, that even though they loved you and you made a lot of sense, this just wasn't for them?

Team Evil has streamlined the whole process by replacing the person's brain with a larval flayer. It's much more efficient and doesn't have the whole "might change alignment back to original" thing. Aboleths and Beholders might do something similar.

[hamishspence]

Most don't.

I thought that, while flawed, it had some interesting ideas - and at least attempted to move a bit away from "murderhobo Good".

[atemu1234]

I thought that, while flawed, it had some interesting ideas - and at least attempted to move a bit away from "murderhobo Good".

True, but most people readily accepted that that was not good. The book tried to codify it, and did it poorly. Don't get me wrong, I still like and use the material, but its interpretations of alignments are flawed at best.

Let's not get into BoVD trying to say masochism is evil, for an easy example.

[Bronk]

The BoED has another set of mundane rules for changing alignment beyond the ability of the Emissaries of Barachiel and the 'Sanctify the Wicked' spell.

Basically, you imprison the evil thing in question, then talk to them about how awesome being good is for at least an hour per day. After each session, you roll an opposed diplomacy check. If you win seven days in a row, their alignment shifts from evil to neutral, then if you win another seven days in a row, they go from neutral to good.

[Jowgen]

Can I ask where this rules text supposedly on page 204 in the players handbook not noticing failed attempts to charm? My players handbook has spells on page 204. In fact, on page 177, it specifically uses charm person as an example of someone succeeding on a save against it and knowing that someone is trying to use magic against it, though not necessarily knowing what magic.

You are right, I was relying on a false google-fu answer, and I have fixed the OP accordingly. Thank you :smallsmile:


When doing a thought experiment, it always helps to examine it from the other side.
Suppose you did the same thing on a group of kindly little old ladies at a LG church, but for Team Evil.

Well, the fiends of baator have the whole turning people evil thing down to a science. I suppose I'll look at how they do it and see if it can be reverse-engineered to improve the 5-step program I'm designing.


Team Evil has streamlined the whole process by replacing the person's brain with a larval flayer. It's much more efficient and doesn't have the whole "might change alignment back to original" thing. Aboleths and Beholders might do something similar.

This is giving me an idea I shall elaborate on at the end of this post :smallbiggrin:


I thought that, while flawed, it had some interesting ideas - and at least attempted to move a bit away from "murderhobo Good".

I do DM a group with an exalted character in it, and the lack of murderhoboing is very refreshing indeed.


True, but most people readily accepted that that was not good. The book tried to codify it, and did it poorly. Don't get me wrong, I still like and use the material, but its interpretations of alignments are flawed at best.

Let's not get into BoVD trying to say masochism is evil, for an easy example.

Furthermore, the inconsistencies between the two books are a whole other topic. BoVD: Killing a Fiend ALWAYS a good act & Chromatic dragons are of "consummate, irredeemable evil". BoED: has a god-damn redeemed Mindflayer in it, for Pelor's sake! :smallfurious:


The BoED has another set of mundane rules for changing alignment beyond the ability of the Emissaries of Barachiel and the 'Sanctify the Wicked' spell.

Basically, you imprison the evil thing in question, then talk to them about how awesome being good is for at least an hour per day. After each session, you roll an opposed diplomacy check. If you win seven days in a row, their alignment shifts from evil to neutral, then if you win another seven days in a row, they go from neutral to good.

Yes, I will be incorporating this to make the process more fool-proof. Which brings me to:


THE NEW AND IMPROVED 8-STEP COMPULSION REDEMPTION CRUSADE!

You want to go into a single prison to redeem a mere handful of inmates? Why think so small?! Why not make a whole redemption factory for the utter purification of the material plane!?

The concept: Locking evil away costs resources. Killing evil fuels the war engines of the lower planes. Better to have a large scale redemption process that directly counters whatever the Baatorians and their faustian pacts are trying to do.

Ingredients needed: Support of the church of Pelor. Minimum 1 Paladin of Pelor with a Pendant of Redemption (Complete Champion p. 140). Minimum 1 creature able to cast charm person at will (e.g. Half-Fey anything) at Cl2. A large group of high-cha Bard/Sorcerers able to cast Hypnotism. A small selection of Clerics of Pelor able to cast Atonement. Reliable guards as needed. A sufficiently large well-enough provisioned and secured facility to conduct business in.

Step 1: Prisoners/Guests/Patients (PGPs)are brought before the Paladin receptionist. After ensuring that a PGP is not magically concealing his alignment, the Paladin uses his detect evil ability on them. The Pendant of Redemption tells him whether the PGP can be redeemed and the rough guidelines Pelor sets for this. All the PGPs' information goes into a file, the PGP goes to the redemption room.

Step 2: The Charm Person user visits the PGP under the pre-tense to magically check his health and uses charm person. The command is given to forgo mental resistance against the workers of the Redemption Crusade. Should the PGP resist and win the opposed charisma check, the Charm Person user returns after two hours to retry until success.

Step 3: The PGP's assigned Bard/Sorcerer arrives (while at least 1 hour of Charm Person remains) and casts Hypnotism to make the PGP at least Indifferent. Should the PGP have too many HD for hypnotism, a back-up spell (e.g. Suggestion) may be used instead. PGP auto-fails his save against whatever spell is used thanks to Charm Person. If this step fails, skip to step 5.

Step 4: If Step 3 succeeded, he PGP gives the order to intently consider everything he has to say with an open unbiased mind.

Step 5: The hour-long redemption talk (BoED p. 28) begins, for which the information gathered at step 1 is used to help. At the end, the PGP auto-fails his special will-save thanks to Charm Person.

Step 6: Steps 2-5 are repeated daily for 2 weeks and alignment change to good is achieved due to 14 consecutive redemption will-save fails.

Step 7: The PGP is sent/escorted to complete whatever penance acts are required by Pelor. If the PGP's corruption rating (FCII p. 30) has been determined to be 4 or higher during the redemption talks, a Pelor priest administers an atonement spell in conjunction with this step.

Step 8: Upon completion of his redemption quest, the PGP is given the choice to either stay and help, or is re-located to a good-alignment-friendly environment of his choosing, where he is given a decent job-opportunity by the local Pelorian church or any of its allies.


Results: For each Bard/Sorcerer redemption worker available, a minimum of 8 PGPs should find redemption every 2 weeks, not including steps 7-8 (which do not require Bard-Sorcerers). Those redeemed will not only be of good alignment and have perfect opportunity to live good lives of their choosing, but their souls will no longer be destined to the lower planes. Some of those redeemed will choose to help the cause, thus providing additional man-power. Exp may be gained by those involved in the process, as per p. 31 of BoED.

Over time, enough resources should amass to allow expansion. This may eventually garner the attention/ill-will of Devils and similar factions, but in turn heroes and perhaps some Celestials (redeeming another is allegedly the greatest act of good, which they ought to take note of at this scale) would come to aid against any such attackers. Good is thus given an edge over evil, which may affect the cosmic balance in the long term.


Thoughts? :smallbiggrin:

[Seclora]

You are right, I was relying on a false google-fu answer, and I have fixed the OP accordingly. Thank you :smallsmile:



Well, the fiends of baator have the whole turning people evil thing down to a science. I suppose I'll look at how they do it and see if it can be reverse-engineered to improve the 5-step program I'm designing.



This is giving me an idea I shall elaborate on at the end of this post :smallbiggrin:



I do DM a group with an exalted character in it, and the lack of murderhoboing is very refreshing indeed.



Furthermore, the inconsistencies between the two books are a whole other topic. BoVD: Killing a Fiend ALWAYS a good act & Chromatic dragons are of "consummate, irredeemable evil". BoED: has a god-damn redeemed Mindflayer in it, for Pelor's sake! :smallfurious:



Yes, I will be incorporating this to make the process more fool-proof. Which brings me to:


THE NEW AND IMPROVED 8-STEP COMPULSION REDEMPTION CRUSADE!

You want to go into a single prison to redeem a mere handful of inmates? Why think so small?! Why not make a whole redemption factory for the utter purification of the material plane!?

The concept: Locking evil away costs resources. Killing evil fuels the war engines of the lower planes. Better to have a large scale redemption process that directly counters whatever the Baatorians and their faustian pacts are trying to do.

Ingredients needed: Support of the church of Pelor. Minimum 1 Paladin of Pelor with a Pendant of Redemption (Complete Champion p. 140). Minimum 1 creature able to cast charm person at will (e.g. Half-Fey anything) at Cl2. A large group of high-cha Bard/Sorcerers able to cast Hypnotism. A small selection of Clerics of Pelor able to cast Atonement. Reliable guards as needed. A sufficiently large well-enough provisioned and secured facility to conduct business in.

Step 1: Prisoners/Guests/Patients (PGPs)are brought before the Paladin receptionist. After ensuring that a PGP is not magically concealing his alignment, the Paladin uses his detect evil ability on them. The Pendant of Redemption tells him whether the PGP can be redeemed and the rough guidelines Pelor sets for this. All the PGPs' information goes into a file, the PGP goes to the redemption room.

Step 2: The Charm Person user visits the PGP under the pre-tense to magically check his health and uses charm person. The command is given to forgo mental resistance against the workers of the Redemption Crusade. Should the PGP resist and win the opposed charisma check, the Charm Person user returns after two hours to retry until success.

Step 3: The PGP's assigned Bard/Sorcerer arrives (while at least 1 hour of Charm Person remains) and casts Hypnotism to make the PGP at least Indifferent. Should the PGP have too many HD for hypnotism, a back-up spell (e.g. Suggestion) may be used instead. PGP auto-fails his save against whatever spell is used thanks to Charm Person. If this step fails, skip to step 5.

Step 4: If Step 3 succeeded, he PGP gives the order to intently consider everything he has to say with an open unbiased mind.

Step 5: The hour-long redemption talk (BoED p. 28) begins, for which the information gathered at step 1 is used to help. At the end, the PGP auto-fails his special will-save thanks to Charm Person.

Step 6: Steps 2-5 are repeated daily for 2 weeks and alignment change to good is achieved due to 14 consecutive redemption will-save fails.

Step 7: The PGP is sent/escorted to complete whatever penance acts are required by Pelor. If the PGP's corruption rating (FCII p. 30) has been determined to be 4 or higher during the redemption talks, a Pelor priest administers an atonement spell in conjunction with this step.

Step 8: Upon completion of his redemption quest, the PGP is given the choice to either stay and help, or is re-located to a good-alignment-friendly environment of his choosing, where he is given a decent job-opportunity by the local Pelorian church or any of its allies.


Results: For each Bard/Sorcerer redemption worker available, a minimum of 8 PGPs should find redemption every 2 weeks, not including steps 7-8 (which do not require Bard-Sorcerers). Those redeemed will not only be of good alignment and have perfect opportunity to live good lives of their choosing, but their souls will no longer be destined to the lower planes. Some of those redeemed will choose to help the cause, thus providing additional man-power. Exp may be gained by those involved in the process, as per p. 31 of BoED.

Over time, enough resources should amass to allow expansion. This may eventually garner the attention/ill-will of Devils and similar factions, but in turn heroes and perhaps some Celestials (redeeming another is allegedly the greatest act of good, which they ought to take note of at this scale) would come to aid against any such attackers. Good is thus given an edge over evil, which may affect the cosmic balance in the long term.


Thoughts? :smallbiggrin:

I'm not sure whether or not to be proud of you for figuring out how to institutionalize redemption, or terrified by it. As a Lawful, usually Good, person, I'd really like to go with the former.

However, there are three separate varieties of Fiend who have the phrase 'primary purpose on the Material Plane is to tempt members of clergy' paraphrased in their descriptions, and one of them is actually shockingly good at it(Lilitu, from Fiendish Codex I would have a field day with your facility). It wouldn't so much be a question of if your operation became a covert soul harvesting facility for the lower planes, but rather of when. If you're lucky, you will die first.
Secondly, we have an operation, using enchantments, that dramatically changes people's personalities when they leave? Do you know who that kind of thing attracts?
Adventurers. This is how you get Adventurers.
They probably won't even be evil. You'll get a handful of Chaotic Good-Neutral types looking for Cousin Fredo, who was not a very good person, but was family and has gone missing. They'll find out that he went to your place, figure out that you've been sending out these new, strangely good people to sites with connections to the church of Pelor. Oh wait, no they won't. They'll set your place on fire because you're brainwashing people and it never occurred to them to ask questions. They'll take an alignment knock for it, some of them even might start asking questions about what they did, but you'll still be out a facility and handful of staff.
Lastly, and most importantly, this is not what Good is about. At the end of the day, good is personal. We all have this reaction to the Redemption rules because the mechanics just feel wrong. Yes, if you take the time to talk to people, win their trust, convince them what they're doing is wrong, and convince them to make an effort to do better they might become good eventually, with effort. But seven(7) successful checks in a row, magically changing their world view, is not redemption, it's brainwashing. And that's true even without Mindrape. So even though the intent is good, your operation would not be. Those people did not choose good, you chose it for them. And that is wrong.

[Jowgen]

I'm not sure whether or not to be proud of you for figuring out how to institutionalize redemption, or terrified by it. As a Lawful, usually Good, person, I'd really like to go with the former.


Why not both? Like a parent who's child has grown up to have way more power than they trust it to have :smalltongue:

Also, "Redeemery" is an excellent name for this thing, mind if I steal it? :smallwink:

Oh, and also while I'm at it, mind if I sig this part of your comment? :smallredface:



However, there are three separate varieties of Fiend who have the phrase 'primary purpose on the Material Plane is to tempt members of clergy' paraphrased in their descriptions, and one of them is actually shockingly good at it(Lilitu, from Fiendish Codex I would have a field day with your facility). It wouldn't so much be a question of if your operation became a covert soul harvesting facility for the lower planes, but rather of when. If you're lucky, you will die first.

Yeah, I do see that problem. I'm confident that it can be dealt with, but that is a whole other thought-exercise in and off itself. Baatorians are terrifyingly efficient. Like Nazis. :smalleek:



Secondly, we have an operation, using enchantments, that dramatically changes people's personalities when they leave? Do you know who that kind of thing attracts?
Adventurers. This is how you get Adventurers.
They probably won't even be evil. You'll get a handful of Chaotic Good-Neutral types looking for Cousin Fredo, who was not a very good person, but was family and has gone missing. They'll find out that he went to your place, figure out that you've been sending out these new, strangely good people to sites with connections to the church of Pelor. Oh wait, no they won't. They'll set your place on fire because you're brainwashing people and it never occurred to them to ask questions. They'll take an alignment knock for it, some of them even might start asking questions about what they did, but you'll still be out a facility and handful of staff.

Hmmm, fair point. From far away, the whole thing does look kinda shady. Actually, I might even use this as a plot-hook at some point. I suppose one way to deal with this would be to make sure the place got a lot of good press. Rub elbows with some King's and Lords to have them send criminals in exchange for good advertisement. Considering the scale of the whole thing, being on similarly good terms with the local powers is almost a prerequesite for this to fly.


Lastly, and most importantly, this is not what Good is about. At the end of the day, good is personal. We all have this reaction to the Redemption rules because the mechanics just feel wrong. Yes, if you take the time to talk to people, win their trust, convince them what they're doing is wrong, and convince them to make an effort to do better they might become good eventually, with effort. But seven(7) successful checks in a row, magically changing their world view, is not redemption, it's brainwashing. And that's true even without Mindrape. So even though the intent is good, your operation would not be. Those people did not choose good, you chose it for them. And that is wrong.

Well, even outside of the BoED (which unabashedly endorses mind-rape-towards-good), "Good" can go a lot of ways. I picked Pelor as the patron of this endeavour because he's both gentle and hell-bent (hehe... get it? :smalltongue:) on the destruction of evil, and would thus without a doubt approve of an effort like this that turned enemy forces into allied forces without violence. If a Neutral Good God approves, how bad can it really be?

The Redeemery is certainly a morally preferable option to killing instead of taking prisoners. Also, I'm pretty sure it's a good-er option that regular prison, which is a not-nice-place that you might never get out of, and even if you do your life will probably still be just as miserable. The Redeemery effectively replaces the regular payment for evil in the form of death or long-term incarceration with a short period of forced mental adjustment, with the added reward of a chance at a much better life. If given the choice between the two, even with all the cards on the table, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of evil folks would choose the Redeemery.

Now from a non-BoED moral standpoint, I do see one thing that I agree to be admonish-able about the Redeemery.

Other than a)forcibly changing the PGPs' outlook on life (which really is what prison tries to do anyway, in an ideal scenario), it does b) leave most redeemed individuals compelled to be Friendly/Helpful towards the Redeemery. While a) can easily be seen as something done for the greater good as well as the PGP's own good against their will (kinda like curing a terminal patient who wants to die), b) does inarguably represent an infringement on the PGP's dignity and free-will. After leaving, they're free to choose how to live their lives (i.e. have the option to return to evil), they will never have the option to dislike the redeemery-staff who hypnotized them (barring intervention by the redeemery staff or 3rd party counter-magic).

This is something that I would personally judge just as non-good as the exalted 'Sanctify the Wicked' spell. So yeah, this part is either a moral-compromise for the greater good, or something that can only be good by BoED-standards. :smallfrown:

[Sith_Happens]

Step 1: You go from cell to cell, spamming charm person until everyone is friendly to you. Those who make their saves will know that someone tried to use magic on them, but as they won't know what kind, one can easily dismiss this as you doing something to check their health or whatever.

You're going to need a good bluff check for this, because if they don't believe you they're going to get +5 against your retries for thinking you tried to attack them.


Step 5: You use hypnotism to give the order to deeply contemplate what you said about good vs evil, including all the ways in which it may better their lives/afterlives if they took it on board.

The suggestion you give using Hypnotism has to be reasonable, which this would only be if you made a damn good diplomacy check, in which case all this method does is save time.


Step 2: The Charm Person user visits the PGP under the pre-tense to magically check his health and uses charm person. The command is given to forgo mental resistance against the workers of the Redemption Crusade. Should the PGP resist and win the opposed charisma check, the Charm Person user returns after two hours to retry until success.

Step 3: The PGP's assigned Bard/Sorcerer arrives (while at least 1 hour of Charm Person remains) and casts Hypnotism to make the PGP at least Indifferent. Should the PGP have too many HD for hypnotism, a back-up spell (e.g. Suggestion) may be used instead. PGP auto-fails his save against whatever spell is used thanks to Charm Person. If this step fails, skip to step 5.

Charm Person only adjusts the target's attitude towards the caster, which means someone else casting Hypnotism is still suggesting against an attitude of unfriendly or hostile. Maybe if the Charmer impresses upon the PGP before the Hypnotizer arrives that the Hypnotizer is a good friend (of the Charmer's) and completely trustworthy.


Step 4: If Step 3 succeeded, he PGP gives the order to intently consider everything he has to say with an open unbiased mind.

This step doesn't actually accomplish anything, the it never says the PGP has to want to listen to your for the redemption checks to work (and if it did that would make it nigh-impossible to ever get the ball rolling).


Step 5: The hour-long redemption talk (BoED p. 28) begins, for which the information gathered at step 1 is used to help. At the end, the PGP auto-fails his special will-save thanks to Charm Person.

This is the part that's a bit iffy. Yes, the redemption diplomacy check is technically opposed by a (modified) Will save, but it comes across to me as just meant to represent how stubborn they are (hence why they add their level).


Thoughts? :smallbiggrin:

Too many finicky bits. You'd be much better off doing this instead:

1. Have at least one Emissary of Barachiel 5 on staff.

Hmmm, fair point. From far away, the whole thing does look kinda shady. Actually, I might even use this as a plot-hook at some point.

Oh yeah, if you ever want to introduce a genuine Law-versus-Chaos conflict to your campaign, this is how.


Other than a)forcibly changing the PGPs' outlook on life (which really is what prison tries to do anyway, in an ideal scenario), it does b) leave most redeemed individuals compelled to be Friendly/Helpful towards the Redeemery. While a) can easily be seen as something done for the greater good as well as the PGP's own good against their will (kinda like curing a terminal patient who wants to die), b) does inarguably represent an infringement on the PGP's dignity and free-will. After leaving, they're free to choose how to live their lives (i.e. have the option to return to evil), they will never have the option to dislike the redeemery-staff who hypnotized them (barring intervention by the redeemery staff or 3rd party counter-magic).

This is something that I would personally judge just as non-good as the exalted 'Sanctify the Wicked' spell. So yeah, this part is either a moral-compromise for the greater good, or something that can only be good by BoED-standards. :smallfrown:

Read Hypnotism again. The PGP only keeps their attitude change with respect to the suggestion you made.

[Jowgen]

@ Sith_Happens,

Thank you for the feedback. I see what you mean with your criticism of the original 5-step program, but I've moved on onto the redeemery approach so I'll be focusing my reply to that.


You're going to need a good bluff check for this, because if they don't believe you they're going to get +5 against your retries for thinking you tried to attack them.

Walk in with medical supplies and announce/proceed to give them a heal check. Point a cheap magical stick that reads "detect disease" at them and use Charm Person as a SLA. If they make their save, tell them "Don't resist or it won't work." or something of the sort. They'll either forgo their save, or continue to resist under the assumption they're spiting you while you're trying to check if they've got a disease or something. Also, saves are always made with the assumption that somehting is hostile, so i don't see how they'd get a +5 to their save. :smallannoyed:


Charm Person only adjusts the target's attitude towards the caster, which means someone else casting Hypnotism is still suggesting against an attitude of unfriendly or hostile. Maybe if the Charmer impresses upon the PGP before the Hypnotizer arrives that the Hypnotizer is a good friend (of the Charmer's) and completely trustworthy.


This step doesn't actually accomplish anything, the it never says the PGP has to want to listen to your for the redemption checks to work (and if it did that would make it nigh-impossible to ever get the ball rolling).

Hypnotism is only affected in its save when either in combat (not the case) or used against a single target out of combat (is the case), but the save shouldn't matter since the charmer took care of the willingess to resist mental influence by Redeemers. The casting of Hypnotism itself improves attitude by 2 steps while it is active, so the request only needs to seem reasonable to someone indifferent at worst (at this stage).

True, this step doesn't cut down redemption time, but it is meant to a) make the change more natural by making the PGPs think about stuff themselves, and b) reduce recidivism by making it so that even after release, the PGP will continue to keep what the hypnotist told him about good and evil in mind.


This is the part that's a bit iffy. Yes, the redemption diplomacy check is technically opposed by a (modified) Will save, but it comes across to me as just meant to represent how stubborn they are (hence why they add their level).

True, the redeemery does capitalize on the technicality of it being a will-save; but I do believe it fits with the fluff. Willsaves against magic and will-saves against mundane convincing both draw on the character's mental fortitude in ignoring/resisting outside influence. If they fail the first, the magic works, if they fail the second, they can't avail being a little convinced by what their redeemer said. Thanks to the charmer's orders, the PGP has forgone mental resistance. Thanks to the Hypnotists orders, they have seriously considered what has been said during the redemption talk. Add to that that the Redeemery provides far-above-standard-for-prisoner's care (which gives penalties to their redeeming save), there is literally no way that one would be able to remain stubborn in this. Really, even if the redeemer's diplomacy wasn't that good, the PGP would be going an extra mile to understand and consider, making up for it. Also, not to muddy things up with real-life logic, but I do actually have an MSc in Criminal Psychology, so I can assure you that this is more than plausible. :smallsmile:


1. Have at least one Emissary of Barachiel 5 on staff.

This would still severely benefit from a charmer to negate the chance of will-save success. You'd need a lot of these in order to churn out the same number of redeemed folks in the long run, and high-level one's at that. Also, if you wanted to make additional Redeemeries, you'd need to train/find more of these. I just don't think it's a very efficient option by itself, although, it would be a nice deluxe option to have one of these at the Redeemery, as to deal with some of the thougher (for whatever reason) PGPs.


Read Hypnotism again. The PGP only keeps their attitude change with respect to the suggestion you made.

Very fair point. All they remain friendly/helpful about is the order to consider the benefits of good, which is really negligible. Well then, I guess the Redeemery does get a gold-star for goodness :smallbiggrin:

[aspekt]

TL; DR in a few places, but doesn't Apostle of Peace have some options which encourage conversion?

[JyP]

Over time, enough resources should amass to allow expansion. This may eventually garner the attention/ill-will of Devils and similar factions, but in turn heroes and perhaps some Celestials (redeeming another is allegedly the greatest act of good, which they ought to take note of at this scale) would come to aid against any such attackers. Good is thus given an edge over evil, which may affect the cosmic balance in the long term.

Thoughts? :smallbiggrin:
Congratulations ! Your plans already worked on a world named Ortho, and your faction now hold sway in the planes in a town named Sigil. But curiously natives call you Guvners, where you call yourself the Fraternity of Order.

Just need to go through the Faction Wars again to check what happened afterwards :smallbiggrin:

[Bronk]

Yeah, I do see that problem. I'm confident that it can be dealt with, but that is a whole other thought-exercise in and off itself. Baatorians are terrifyingly efficient. Like Nazis. :smalleek:


The beauty of this approach, assuming everything works out, is that any force of fiends that come against you, once defeated, can be tossed into the system and spat out as a defender.

[Karl Aegis]

Why are we stopping at evil creatures? Extend the program to include children.

[atemu1234]

Why are we stopping at evil creatures? Extend the program to include children.

I once made an "Exalted Good" villain for an evil campaign. The thing is, in the universe it was set, the evil characters, while evil, were still the preferable option over an empire attempting to indoctrinate everyone, burning heretics or worse.

[Maglubiyet]

Step 4: If Step 3 succeeded, he PGP gives the order to intently consider everything he has to say with an open unbiased mind.

Step 5: The hour-long redemption talk (BoED p. 28) begins, for which the information gathered at step 1 is used to help. At the end, the PGP auto-fails his special will-save thanks to Charm Person.

Step 6: Steps 2-5 are repeated daily for 2 weeks and alignment change to good is achieved due to 14 consecutive redemption will-save fails.


Changing someone's mind and changing their behavior are two different things. Go to any rehab program and you'll find a room full of people who will agree wholeheartedly that their addiction is a bad thing. But follow half* of them around and you'll find that what they say and believe is often at odds with what they practice in their daily lives.

Are they lying when they're in the group session? No, they know (better than most) how terrible their actions are, but knowing doesn't remove the habits and the triggers that cause them to slip back into that behavior.

Likewise, many personality disorders (as defined in the DSM-5) are extremely treatment resistant. They can't be "talked away" because the core assumptions and modes of thinking are integral to the personality of the patient. Even if you could convince one of these people that they actually had a problem, that what they were doing was "wrong", it might not change their behavioral at all.

Even people who want to change have a hard time. It often takes years of therapy to begin to alter the underlying thought processes to have an impact on day-to-day behavior. If it was as easy as contemplating your actions and talking to a priest for two weeks, then therapists wouldn't exist in our modern world.

I see this Pelor-sponsored mind-control movement having moderate success in the temple, with a high failure rate once people went back to their normal lives. Evil is as evil does. You can't usually change someone's behavior in such a short time, no matter how convinced a person is that the change is necessary.


* success rates are contentious and not well- supported, defined, or documented

[Bronk]

Why are we stopping at evil creatures? Extend the program to include children.

Unless they come from rich families of course. Have to pay for this all somehow!

[Jowgen]

Congratulations ! Your plans already worked on a world named Ortho, and your faction now hold sway in the planes in a town named Sigil. But curiously natives call you Guvners, where you call yourself the Fraternity of Order.

Just need to go through the Faction Wars again to check what happened afterwards

Oh you :smalltongue:


The beauty of this approach, assuming everything works out, is that any force of fiends that come against you, once defeated, can be tossed into the system and spat out as a defender.

Eeeeeeh... Fiends are about as irredeemably evil as they come. Killing them is -always- a good act, trying to treat them is hell-a dangerous (hehe... get it? :smalltongue:). Not saying it's 100% impossible (I think I once say a webarticle telling the story and stats of a redeemed succubus), but it's certainly something a bit too big for your standard redeemery to bite off :smallconfused:


Changing someone's mind and changing their behavior are two different things. Go to any rehab program and you'll find a room full of people who will agree wholeheartedly that their addiction is a bad thing. But follow half* of them around and you'll find that what they say and believe is often at odds with what they practice in their daily lives.

Are they lying when they're in the group session? No, they know (better than most) how terrible their actions are, but knowing doesn't remove the habits and the triggers that cause them to slip back into that behavior.

Likewise, many personality disorders (as defined in the DSM-5) are extremely treatment resistant. They can't be "talked away" because the core assumptions and modes of thinking are integral to the personality of the patient. Even if you could convince one of these people that they actually had a problem, that what they were doing was "wrong", it might not change their behavioral at all.

Even people who want to change have a hard time. It often takes years of therapy to begin to alter the underlying thought processes to have an impact on day-to-day behavior. If it was as easy as contemplating your actions and talking to a priest for two weeks, then therapists wouldn't exist in our modern world.

I see this Pelor-sponsored mind-control movement having moderate success in the temple, with a high failure rate once people went back to their normal lives. Evil is as evil does. You can't usually change someone's behavior in such a short time, no matter how convinced a person is that the change is necessary.


* success rates are contentious and not well- supported, defined, or documented

Addictive behaviour and mental disorders are admittedly a thing that the Redeemery should ideally try to address, but I severely doubt that the number of evil things that are evil due to an disorder as opposed to by choice is that high. I recall Unearthed Arcana having rules for mental disorders (sanity point system was it?), BoVD has fetishes... I guess I'll have a look around for applicable rule to make sure the process functions on those that aren't just evil but sick-evil. :smallannoyed:


Why are we stopping at evil creatures? Extend the program to include children.

Oh hell no! Security is enough of a concern at the redeemery as it is, I might as well just burn the whole place down and call it a day :smalleek:

[Maglubiyet]

Addictive behaviour and mental disorders are admittedly a thing that the Redeemery should ideally try to address, but I severely doubt that the number of evil things that are evil due to an disorder as opposed to by choice is that high.


Today we class most "Evil" behavior as disorders, because they are antisocial, self defeating, and/or tend to get you into trouble. Can you describe an evil person who could not be diagnosed by a modern clinician with some form of behavioral disorder as defined by the DSM-5?

[Sam K]

I'm not sure you can get someone to fail their saving throw because of a charm person. It might work on some people, but just because someone is friendly to you doesn't mean they will agree to be subjected to unknown spells. Would you agree to let your friends inject you with unknown substances without a good reason? You could likely get by this with a good bluff-check ("Hey, my friend will stop by and cast 'Edwards tentacles of extreme orgasms' on you soon, you should totally not try to resist that spell, it's awesome!") but you would need a caster with a good bluff check and you add another point of failure. Ofcourse, bluff is a class skill for sorcerers, so it might not matter so much.

Anyway, I think that in practice, this might work if you could place the redeemed people in an environment where they don't come in contact with whatever made them turn to evil in the first place. Most likely, you would have to set up enclaves where the redeemed could live safe from the temptations of the world that would corrupt them. Ofcourse, that gives you a society where everyone is essentially a fragile, somewhat brainwashed jerk trying to repress their dark side. What happens when one of them snaps?

As a side note, I really like the idea of a party comming across a village like that. Everyone seems SOOOO nice but just slightly on the edge... wonder what happens when you push them too far :)

[Jowgen]

Today we class most "Evil" behavior as disorders, because they are antisocial, self defeating, and/or tend to get you into trouble. Can you describe an evil person who could not be diagnosed by a modern clinician with some form of behavioral disorder as defined by the DSM-5?

This is getting dangerously close to the modern debate about criminals going for psychological treatment instead of regular jail. :smalleek:

Modern standards are rather hard to apply to a D&D setting, where there are openly lawful evil nations (i.e. evil is the norm), plenty of magic that can jumble your mind, and tangible divine forces that judge your actions.

In either scenario, I believe that Steps 1 and 6-7 of the redeemery addresses this issue. If an individual is so evil that they can't be redeemed (i.e. incurable disorder), the Talisman or Redemption will pick up on it. If they can be redeemed/cured, the redeemery provides the cognitive side of therapy (with beyond gold-standard medication in the form of mind-affecting magic), while the penace acts assigned by Pelor through the Talisman of Redemption reveal the required behavioural therapy. Considering this no-error-margin process of diagnosis and intensive treatment (which is beyond what is acchievable irl), I think the set time-frame here is fully realistic, even though it would be impossible with what we can do irl.

[Jowgen]

I'm not sure you can get someone to fail their saving throw because of a charm person. It might work on some people, but just because someone is friendly to you doesn't mean they will agree to be subjected to unknown spells. Would you agree to let your friends inject you with unknown substances without a good reason? You could likely get by this with a good bluff-check ("Hey, my friend will stop by and cast 'Edwards tentacles of extreme orgasms' on you soon, you should totally not try to resist that spell, it's awesome!") but you would need a caster with a good bluff check and you add another point of failure. Ofcourse, bluff is a class skill for sorcerers, so it might not matter so much.

Anyway, I think that in practice, this might work if you could place the redeemed people in an environment where they don't come in contact with whatever made them turn to evil in the first place. Most likely, you would have to set up enclaves where the redeemed could live safe from the temptations of the world that would corrupt them. Ofcourse, that gives you a society where everyone is essentially a fragile, somewhat brainwashed jerk trying to repress their dark side. What happens when one of them snaps?

As a side note, I really like the idea of a party comming across a village like that. Everyone seems SOOOO nice but just slightly on the edge... wonder what happens when you push them too far :)

Even if a PGP wouldn't normally forgo mental resistance even though a trusted friend and ally asked them to, the opposed charisma check portion of the spell takes care of that. The final step of the redeemery process does provide this kind of relocation, although I do agree that it would be best to spread the redeemed out rather than keep them all together. Otherwise, all the devils and demons who lost those souls are just going to go in and curbstomp the redeemery's efforts in that enclave.

And I do agree that that would make for an interesting plot-setting: someone is using shaky methods to redeem lots of evil people and keeps them in some place. Even if you make the redeemery responsible fully functional, adventurers will likely still want to investigate, and you could get a wonderful good-vs-good-due-to-miscommunication quest going. :smallbiggrin:

[Maglubiyet]

This is getting dangerously close to the modern debate about criminals going for psychological treatment instead of regular jail. :smalleek:

Modern standards are rather hard to apply to a D&D setting, where there are openly lawful evil nations (i.e. evil is the norm), plenty of magic that can jumble your mind, and tangible divine forces that judge your actions.

In either scenario, I believe that Steps 1 and 6-7 of the redeemery addresses this issue. If an individual is so evil that they can't be redeemed (i.e. incurable disorder), the Talisman or Redemption will pick up on it. If they can be redeemed/cured, the redeemery provides the cognitive side of therapy (with beyond gold-standard medication in the form of mind-affecting magic), while the penace acts assigned by Pelor through the Talisman of Redemption reveal the required behavioural therapy. Considering this no-error-margin process of diagnosis and intensive treatment (which is beyond what is acchievable irl), I think the set time-frame here is fully realistic, even though it would be impossible with what we can do irl.

I still don't see how convincing someone to be good automatically MAKES them good. They might leave with the best of intentions and then the first time their wife is yelling at them they snap and hit her like they always have.

Anyway, if it was this easy, it seems the Evil faction would employ it more regularly than Good. It's a heck of a lot easier to corrupt someone than to purify them. And forcing compliance through negating free will is a non-issue for Evil.

The evil priesthoods, as directed by their demanding deities, would just set up shop and force everyone to perform an irredeemably evil act. Boom, guaranteed souls in the afterlife for the Abyss and Baator.

[Jowgen]

I still don't see how convincing someone to be good automatically MAKES them good. They might leave with the best of intentions and then the first time their wife is yelling at them they snap and hit her like they always have.

Anyway, if it was this easy, it seems the Evil faction would employ it more regularly than Good. It's a heck of a lot easier to corrupt someone than to purify them. And forcing compliance through negating free will is a non-issue for Evil.

The evil priesthoods, as directed by their demanding deities, would just set up shop and force everyone to perform an irredeemably evil act. Boom, guaranteed souls in the afterlife for the Abyss and Baator.

There won't be a 0% recidivism rate (life's too messy for that), but considering that they'll retain their helpful attitude towards the Hypnotist's "consider the benefits of good and downfalls of evil" command, it should be low.

And evil absolutely does do this kinda stuff, although the incidence of straight up mind-affecting creatures into doing evil stuff is rather low from what the Fiendish Codexes say (Fiends of Corruption being the main force here). The problem for them is that getting and living on the material isn't the easiest thing. They usually just move in and seek out specific people to manipulate towards their goal, which usually is done non-magically since most fiends have limited mind-affecting abilities at best. Also, non-intentional evil acts are less corrupting than intentional ones, so it takes a delicate approach, which isn't something every fiend can pull off.

Also, no act is utterly irredeemable if the character feels truly repentant. No matter your corruption rating, repentance, reperation and an atonement spell will free your soul (which is something evil things really don't like).

[Jowgen]

Am now thinking to a) add the ability to cast geas/quest to the pre-requs for being a redeemery cleric, as to allow PGP clerics to switch deities to Pelor via the Conversion rules on page 193 pf the PHBII (also saves atonement spell exp), and b) to make a mini redeemery-handbook based on this thread :smallsmile:

EDIT: make that cleric of Pelor with the Nobility domain and Spontaneous Domain ACF so they can get more geas and +2 to ability checks for the charmers. Also, some Veils of Allure, +Cha items and circlets of persuasion for sharing between the charmers for even more awesome charisma checks would be nice additions. Lastly, having a Half-Fey on staff would provide fluff-reasons for everyone to have Nymph's Kiss as a feat (to be retrained for newcomers) for another semi-free +2 to the Cha-checks. :smallsmile: