The Coffee Drow: A Sleepless Sorclock

[XmonkTad]

Before we really dig in to the meat of this one, let me just say that rule 0 applies double to 5th edition. While everything here is RAW legal, YMMV due to DM interpretation. Below are some things that require DM interpretation, but if you don't care about that, then just read on over it.


Some mission critical things.

Is Cheese allowed? On a scale of 1 to Pun-Pun, this is about a 6. Optimization should be OK at your table before you break this out.
Can you have more spell slots than your normal "slots per level" indicate? If so, how long do they last? The DM has to make a ruling on this, and the build doesn't work without it. There isn't really a "default assumption" available. My interpretation is that yes, you can (my case for that below), but everything resets at the end of a long rest when you "regain" your normal number of slots. (Update: Errata (https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/PH-Errata-V1.pdf) says this is correct)
Can you convert a non-sorcerer spell slot into sorcery points? Nothing says you can't; I think you can.


Some nice things

Do you have to trance all at once? You need 4 hours to gain the benefit of being rested, but do you have to do it all at once? Note that this is for the purpose of not "feeling fatigued," not for gaining the benefits of a long rest. This is one of those rare times where the two may be different.
Are Drow allowed as a race? It says to ask in the PHB, so you should.
Drow Corollary: can I wear sunglasses to deal with the sunlight sensitivity thing? Is there any way to deal with sunlight sensitivity other than getting me and everyone else out of the sun?
What is needed to make a healing potion? Foregoing long rests means you'll need some other source of healing. The PHB says herbalism kits, the DMG says "whatever the DM wants."



With that aside, here is Java Do'Urden, The Sleepless Sorclock

Drow Sorcerer 2/Warlock 1 (Archfey)
Abilities (27 point buy)
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 16
~21 HP
Proficient with light armor, simple weapons

Background: Hermit for Herbalism Kit

Cantrips

Acid Splash
Friends
Mage Hand
Minor Illusion

Level 1

Burning Hands
Color Spray
Shield




Cantrips

Prestidigitation
Poison Spray

Level 1

Armor of Agathys
Hex



So how does Java work? Well, in essence, Java uses short rests to regain warlock spell slots which she then turns into sorcery points, which are burned for even more sorcerer spell slots. Because Java does not take long rests, she instead gains the benefit of 4-8 short rests while the rest of the party is sleeping. During her 2 hours a night of mandatory "light activity" (must interrupt a long rest, but still qualify for a short rest) Java makes coffee.

Now, at level 3, 8 short rests will produce 8 sorcery points, which is lower than the 9 sorcery points a regular level 3 sorcerer would produce just by actually sleeping. Java as shown here is just the lowest level at which you can do this trick. It's a bit like getting the sorcerer capstone at level 3.
But lets look at some higher levels:
Java at level 6 (Sorc 3/Lock 3) will produce 32 sorcery points every night. A regular sorcerer will only get 25.
Java at level 10 (Sorc 3/Lock 7) will get 64 sorcery points every night. A regular sorcerer will get 51.

Of course, that's a false equivalency. While Java at level 10 can buy the same number of 5th level spells that a regular sorcerer could, she wouldn't be able to cast 5th level spells, so what's the point?
The point is: Java never sleeps. She never loses her extra spell slots. She just keeps accumulating them. For one night, she just barely keeps up with a regular sorcerer. But after 2 nights? A week? Java just keeps getting more powerful!

Update 2015:

Java does rely on the DM for rule interpretation as to whether you can have more spell slots then are shown on your table. However, if they're on the fence, here are some RAW things you can show them to bolster your case!

Other classes use "recovery" mechanics that all explicitly say that they recover spell slots. The wizard's (PHB 115) arcane recovery mechanic specifically says "you can choose expended spell slots to recover" and again for the diviner's (PHB 116) expert divination "you regain one expended spell slot" and the moon druid's (PHB 68) natural recovery "you choose expended spell slots to recover." WotC took great care to repeat themselves whenever they wanted you to only be able to have a certain number of spell slots.
But that isn't the case for the sorcerer! Sorcery points create spell slots. Page 101 of the PHB is very explicit when it says that sorcery points can be used to create spell slots, not recover them. Even in the sorcery point description itself it says "you can create spell slots no higher in level than 5th" and "You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level." I think they said exactly what they meant.



But that's just the rules. Who cares what they have to say if you have a character running around who has completely broken the game? Well, Java might work differently from other characters/casters, but how broken is Java really?

Java's weaknesses:
Healing! Java doesn't have any way of recovering hit dice without actually taking some head -> pillow time. You'll drain the party resources without either hunkering down for the night or dipping into a healing class. Healing potions or the Healer feat will help a lot, but that's still 5 gp per 1d6+4 HP. Very expensive!
Attack rolls in sunlight. Because Drow. Some of the best damage spells require attack rolls. Even though you won't run out of them, it's a pain to waste an action missing. Faerie Fire helps deal with that, but it's better just to pick spells that don't need attack rolls. Java could work as a different kind of elf, but then you wouldn't get the CHA bonus!
You won't have the same nova potential. You don't have the same level of spells a single-classed caster does. But you have a whole lot more of what you do have. This is the big sticking point. How many castings of "magic missile" make up for the fact that you can't cast "scorching ray"? Well, magic missile's 3d4+3 yields you about 10.5 damage while that scorching ray deals 6d6 or about 21 damage. If combat goes for 3 rounds, Java can cast magic missile 3 times, and a regular caster could fire off a scorching ray + 2 cantrips. So 31.5 damage vs 33 damage (assuming firebolt). Does that seem overpowered to you?
Finally: DM shutdown. Java isn't terribly broken but things don't bother her as much as a normal caster when she can just burn a first level spell for shield every turn. Make sure the DM has had their coffee before presenting this to them.

Update 2017:
New material! First, the errata has settled one issue about having spell slots disappear at the end of a long rest. They do, so it's good we don't take them.
Second: Warlock UA (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/20170213_Wizrd_Wrlck_UAv2_i48nf.pdf) has Aspect of the Moon invocation which, if allowed, removes the need for sleep. Java as presented here has no need for this, and doesn't have invocations yet, but this really opens up the available races.
Third: Sorcerer UA (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/26_UASorcererUA020617s.pdf) has the Favored Soul subclass, which includes the ability to grab cure wounds. If allowed, this solves a lot of the healing problems, and makes your party love you a lot more. This is strictly better than PHB options.
Finally, after 3.5 years, this build still seems to work. I'm very grateful to all the posters who helped me discover new material and helped me work out the rules to help Java keep drinking coffee.

[arawra]

cheese, of the sharp cheddar variety

[JNAProductions]

http://www.nasonvilledairy.com/shop/image/cache/data/Extra-Sharp-Cheddar-Cheese-Aged-4-Years-500x500.jpg

[Forum Explorer]

This is pretty awesome, but you missed something in the Sorcerer list.


You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level.

Or maybe you didn't. You did specify spell slots. Though it does point to your interpretation in point number two being denied. The other big reason you denied is because you are going by Air Bud rules (There's nothing saying I can't do it, so thus I can do it!) which is just silly.


The other big weakness you didn't really mention was damage. Without long rests your natural healing quickly hits zero, and it's not that hard to just beat on Java til she collapses. (Java is totally a girl's name). Even with shield spamming, it's not impossible to smack her around (particularly if you can get advantage) and then there is AoE damage to soak up. At which point you are becoming a massive drain on party resources to keep you going.

Basically I think Java would burn out before a normal sorcerer or normal warlock when faced with less then optimal circumstances.

EDIT: I know this goes without saying really, but multiclassing also has to be allowed.

[Scarab112]

The other big weakness you didn't really mention was damage. Without long rests your natural healing quickly hits zero, and it's not that hard to just beat on Java til she collapses. (Java is totally a girl's name). Even with shield spamming, it's not impossible to smack her around (particularly if you can get advantage) and then there is AoE damage to soak up. At which point you are becoming a massive drain on party resources to keep you going.

Basically I think Java would burn out before a normal sorcerer or normal warlock when faced with less then optimal circumstances.

The simple solution to that is to either be a Favored Soul sorcerer with the Life domain for Cure Wounds, Take Magic initiate for cure wounds, or just take your first level in Cleric for Heavy Armor and Cure Wounds.

[XmonkTad]

Well, the consensus is that this is cheesy. Oh well.


Or maybe you didn't. You did specify spell slots. Though it does point to your interpretation in point number two being denied.


Yeah. When I came up with the idea for Java that was a big sticking point. If I could have more sorcery points than the maximum, then it would be really crazy because at level 3 Java could be running around with 5th level spell slots. Of course, that doesn't work, so we're stuck with just lots and lots of lower level spell slots. That is, until Sorc 7, where java can make 5th level spell slots (possibly before anyone else gets them).

I'm pretty sure there isn't anything in the book about having more spell slots than your maximum. The entry on flexible casting just says that you can a spell slot of level X for Y sorcery points as a bonus action. Something might get tweeted out about it later, but I don't see why a level 2 sorcerer couldn't wake up at the start of the day and say "I have literally nothing else to do with these so I'm just going to spend these 2 sorcery points to make a 1st level slot now rather than waste a bonus action later doing it." It would be strange if the DM said no to that.



The other big weakness you didn't really mention was damage. Without long rests your natural healing quickly hits zero, and it's not that hard to just beat on Java til she collapses. (Java is totally a girl's name). Even with shield spamming, it's not impossible to smack her around (particularly if you can get advantage) and then there is AoE damage to soak up. At which point you are becoming a massive drain on party resources to keep you going.

Basically I think Java would burn out before a normal sorcerer or normal warlock when faced with less then optimal circumstances.


As for getting smacked up, Java isn't particularly more or less vulnerable than any other caster. Unlimited temp HP (though never much at one time), unlimited use of shield (what else was I using reactions for?), that's as good as most level 3 casters can boast. Heck, that wizard is going to spend a slot on mage armor just to match the fact that Java can actually wear armor. Proficiency in Con saves is none too shabby either.

The healing thing is a big issue though, that is true. I had hoped that taking the Herbalism kit would let you make healing potions, but it's up to the DM as to what is needed to make one (other than 100g and 4 days). I mean, Java can sleep if needed, but it sort of resets everything and isn't what you want to do every day.

[SharkForce]

no point in advancing your warlock level past the point where a single spell fills your sorcery pool (which is capped to 3 at any one time). personally, i'd actually recommend you just go lock 3/sorcerer 17 in the long run; you get the majority of what you want out of warlock by the time you've hit level 3 in it (assuming you want your pact), and 32 points per night is plenty, especially if you stockpile during downtime.

as for healing, this won't help at level 1, but you could eventually pick up vampiric touch. also, at some point, you should really invest in the healer feat.

plus of course, you're fairly likely to find yourself at some point needing to burn yourself down below your maximum spell slots. on such days, you may want to take a long rest. especially for your high level spell slots, which cannot be replenished except with a long rest.

[XmonkTad]

The simple solution to that is to either be a Favored Soul sorcerer with the Life domain for Cure Wounds, Take Magic initiate for cure wounds, or just take your first level in Cleric for Heavy Armor and Cure Wounds.

I absolutely love the Favored Soul idea. Java would make a spectacular healer as a Life Domain FS sorcerer. Pushing the DM to allow that particular subclass might be difficult, because that would provide you with a ton of healing. Dipping life cleric seems like a big sacrifice as Java is already running behind the single classed full casters, and magic initiate specifically requires a long rest before you can cast that spell again (poor Java).


no point in advancing your warlock level past the point where a single spell fills your sorcery pool (which is capped to 3 at any one time). personally, i'd actually recommend you just go lock 3/sorcerer 17 in the long run; you get the majority of what you want out of warlock by the time you've hit level 3 in it (assuming you want your pact), and 32 points per night is plenty, especially if you stockpile during downtime.

as for healing, this won't help at level 1, but you could eventually pick up vampiric touch. also, at some point, you should really invest in the healer feat.

plus of course, you're fairly likely to find yourself at some point needing to burn yourself down below your maximum spell slots. on such days, you may want to take a long rest. especially for your high level spell slots, which cannot be replenished except with a long rest.

That's very true. Warlock 3 would probably be my limit too. Java doesn't really operate differently from a regular caster before level 3 though. Before that it's the normal long rest nights.

The healer feat idea is really good. If the DM doesn't allow for favored soul sorcerers, then that feat is a really good idea.

[Scarab112]

and magic initiate specifically requires a long rest before you can cast that spell again (poor Java).

Magic Initiate says that you learn the spell as well, which means you can cast it with your normal spell slots.

[Forum Explorer]

Been editing my previous post, and now I need to resay stuff. :smallsigh:


The simple solution to that is to either be a Favored Soul sorcerer with the Life domain for Cure Wounds, Take Magic initiate for cure wounds, or just take your first level in Cleric for Heavy Armor and Cure Wounds.

That works (well not the favored soul part. They don't exist.) Though Cleric gives you medium armor, not heavy. But point taken. It does slow you down a level, but for nigh unlimited healing it's worth it.


Well, the consensus is that this is cheesy. Oh well.


Yeah. When I came up with the idea for Java that was a big sticking point. If I could have more sorcery points than the maximum, then it would be really crazy because at level 3 Java could be running around with 5th level spell slots. Of course, that doesn't work, so we're stuck with just lots and lots of lower level spell slots. That is, until Sorc 7, where java can make 5th level spell slots (possibly before anyone else gets them).

I'm pretty sure there isn't anything in the book about having more spell slots than your maximum. The entry on flexible casting just says that you can a spell slot of level X for Y sorcery points as a bonus action. Something might get tweeted out about it later, but I don't see why a level 2 sorcerer couldn't wake up at the start of the day and say "I have literally nothing else to do with these so I'm just going to spend these 2 sorcery points to make a 1st level slot now rather than waste a bonus action later doing it." It would be strange if the DM said no to that.



As for getting smacked up, Java isn't particularly more or less vulnerable than any other caster. Unlimited temp HP (though never much at one time), unlimited use of shield (what else was I using reactions for?), that's as good as most level 3 casters can boast. Heck, that wizard is going to spend a slot on mage armor just to match the fact that Java can actually wear armor. Proficiency in Con saves is none too shabby either.

The healing thing is a big issue though, that is true. I had hoped that taking the Herbalism kit would let you make healing potions, but it's up to the DM as to what is needed to make one (other than 100g and 4 days). I mean, Java can sleep if needed, but it sort of resets everything and isn't what you want to do every day.

I said this above in an edit, but the other big problem is you're going by Air Bud rules, where just because something isn't specifically forbidden means that thing is allowed. Most things don't work like that, and that makes the trick barely RAW at all. By that logic, a wizard can eat his spellbook and puke it up every night to read it without penalty (because there's no rules for the PCs digestive system in the game).


Also by that logic, nothing is said about you losing spell slots when you finish a rest, only that you regain spent slots (or just regain slots in general). Which means it wouldn't reset on a long rest. You'd just keep gaining more and more spell slots depending on how many you used in the day. (A normal sorcerer would be able to do this as well to a lesser extent)

And casters are generally pretty vulnerable to getting smacked around. In comparison to a more tanky class anyways.

[Scarab112]

That works (well not the favored soul part. They don't exist.) Though Cleric gives you medium armor, not heavy. But point taken. It does slow you down a level, but for nigh unlimited healing it's worth it.




Favored Soul was given example rules in a recent article. As for the Cleric, you get heavy armor from the domain, not the class.

[XmonkTad]

Been editing my previous post, and now I need to resay stuff. :smallsigh:
I said this above in an edit, but the other big problem is you're going by Air Bud rules, where just because something isn't specifically forbidden means that thing is allowed. Most things don't work like that, and that makes the trick barely RAW at all.


In some ways, yes. I always interpreted "regain" to mean that any spell slots expended were returned, up to the maximum shown in the table. But yes, that part is open to interpretation as to what exactly they mean. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's not RAW though. The flexible casting entry is very clear that by spending X sorcery points you gain a spell slot of level Y. That part, at least, is 100% RAW. Considering how clear the text was that you're not allowed more than your maximum amount of sorcery points I think that my interpretation isn't entirely unfounded.



Also by that logic, nothing is said about you losing spell slots when you finish a rest, only that you regain spent slots (or just regain slots in general). Which means it wouldn't reset on a long rest. You'd just keep gaining more and more spell slots depending on how many you used in the day. (A normal sorcerer would be able to do this as well to a lesser extent)


The "losing spell slots thing" is how I read it. I just feel like a long rest is a reset while a short rest is a recharge. That part of the build came out more flavorful than anything else. I suppose a normal sorcerer could do this, especially with their capstone.



And casters are generally pretty vulnerable to getting smacked around. In comparison to a more tanky class anyways.
True.


Magic Initiate says that you learn the spell as well, which means you can cast it with your normal spell slots.

Oh, that's handy! Better than the healer feat, that's for sure. Healing word for everyone!

[Giant2005]

Oh, that's handy! Better than the healer feat, that's for sure. Healing word for everyone!
It doesn't work - the spell explicitly states that "Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again." so even if you were allowing it to use spell slots, you could still only do it the once.

[Forum Explorer]

In some ways, yes. I always interpreted "regain" to mean that any spell slots expended were returned, up to the maximum shown in the table. But yes, that part is open to interpretation as to what exactly they mean. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's not RAW though. The flexible casting entry is very clear that by spending X sorcery points you gain a spell slot of level Y. That part, at least, is 100% RAW. Considering how clear the text was that you're not allowed more than your maximum amount of sorcery points I think that my interpretation isn't entirely unfounded.



The "losing spell slots thing" is how I read it. I just feel like a long rest is a reset while a short rest is a recharge. That part of the build came out more flavorful than anything else. I suppose a normal sorcerer could do this, especially with their capstone.


Is there any doubt what they intended? :smallamused: I don't entirely understand how the sentence that you can never have more then your max sorcery points leads to you having more then your max spell slots as valid though. It seems to be exactly why that interpretation is not valid. And yeah, it's not explicitly forbidden by the rules. But like I said in another thread, it certainly invalidates RACS and RAI, and that's what your DM is most likely going to be working on.


Like I said, it doesn't explicitly say it's a reset, just that you regain expended spell slots. Which is the exact same logic you are using to justify having additional spell slots in the first place.

[XmonkTad]

Magic Initiate says that you learn the spell as well, which means you can cast it with your normal spell slots.


It doesn't work - the spell explicitly states that "Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again." so even if you were allowing it to use spell slots, you could still only do it the once.

:smallfrown:

Well one of you is correct.

[XmonkTad]

Is there any doubt what they intended? :smallamused: I don't entirely understand how the sentence that you can never have more then your max sorcery points leads to you having more then your max spell slots as valid though. It seems to be exactly why that interpretation is not valid. And yeah, it's not explicitly forbidden by the rules. But like I said in another thread, it certainly invalidates RACS and RAI, and that's what your DM is most likely going to be working on.


Like I said, it doesn't explicitly say it's a reset, just that you regain expended spell slots. Which is the exact same logic you are using to justify having additional spell slots in the first place.

Oh I certainly don't know what they intended :smallwink:. Do Drow drink coffee?
The reason I feel like "not explicitly forbidden" in this case is closer to "yes you can do that" is because in a very similar situation (the sorcery points) they explicitly called out that you may not do it. If the spell-slot situation was also forbidden, then a similar line of text would have declared it such.
Either way, you're right: it's total Air Bud until your DM rules on it.

[Forum Explorer]

Oh I certainly don't know what they intended :smallwink:. Do Drow drink coffee?
The reason I feel like "not explicitly forbidden" in this case is closer to "yes you can do that" is because in a very similar situation (the sorcery points) they explicitly called out that you may not do it. If the spell-slot situation was also forbidden, then a similar line of text would have declared it such.
Either way, you're right: it's total Air Bud until your DM rules on it.

See, I figure it's more a situation of not repeating themselves.


Looks like Giant is right, I looked it up.

Still I don't think Java is actually that overpowered if there isn't really a healer to help her out, or a minor one anyways (and she doesn't get access to Cure Wounds somehow). I'd be curious to see how she'd hold up in a game without one. The other 'real game' factor is long term attrition and lack of down time. I mean, I know in my games, the spellcasters rarely go to sleep with all that many spells (and by extension Sorcery Points) left.

@Scarab; sorry your post got skipped by my computer. Sure, domain works. But I would hardly consider an example they use as a legitimate variant. I mean, examples tend to be slapdash by their nature, cause they are just showing how they would create a variant, without looking to actual balance and the like.

[Malifice]

Sneak some paladin in there for unlimited smites.

Like on literally every single attack.

[Ardantis]

I just imagine Java wobbling around after a few days, bloodshot eyes, trying to cast spells. Try explaining that to the city guard.

So cheesy.

[dev6500]

Yup this idea is RAW. It's not even an "air bud" scenario as people are describing it.
You spend sorcery points to get spell slots. Those spell slots do not have an expiration date just like regular spell slots.

If you take a short rest while you have unused regular spell slots do they disappear? Nope. This is regular rules behavior.

[SharkForce]

well, i'd agree that this is regular rules behaviour in the sense that this is what the rules say. if you try and pull this kind of stunt in an average game, i rather suspect the DM will disapprove quite strongly, though.

[Forum Explorer]

Yup this idea is RAW. It's not even an "air bud" scenario as people are describing it.
You spend sorcery points to get spell slots. Those spell slots do not have an expiration date just like regular spell slots.

If you take a short rest while you have unused regular spell slots do they disappear? Nope. This is regular rules behavior.

That's not the problem, it's can you have more spell slots then is stated on the Sorcerer/Warlock class table? And if so, does it keep stacking to an infinite amount?

Also, can you regain spell slots used on a short rest, or do you regain enough spell slots to be restored to the max number given on the table?

[dev6500]

That's not the problem, it's can you have more spell slots then is stated on the Sorcerer/Warlock class table? And if so, does it keep stacking to an infinite amount?

Also, can you regain spell slots used on a short rest, or do you regain enough spell slots to be restored to the max number given on the table?

All that stuff you brought up would be adding rules that don't exist. If one interpretation requires adding whole sentences of extra rules and another requires no additional sentences, then the latter is the RAW.

Warlock spell slots are regained on a short rest. As long add you use them up they come back.
Sorcery points may be turned into spell slots. No expiration our max number of slots listed. This idea of max spell slots our slot expiration is only brought up because some may see this as a balance issue. Perceived balance issues are a reason for an errata rule change or a dm rule change... not for reading raw.

It's raw and a little roundabout and depending on the game scenario possibly strong. Though you delay your spell level progression to do it so it may not be worth it. Would need to see it in play first.

[XmonkTad]

Sneak some paladin in there for unlimited smites.

Like on literally every single attack.

It would work great, if you're in darkness or not a Drow. Disadvantage on attack rolls in sunlight is a steep price to pay for this build, but it's what works.


I just imagine Java wobbling around after a few days, bloodshot eyes, trying to cast spells. Try explaining that to the city guard.

:smalltongue: Technically no elf sleeps (and Drow are elves in 5th). And what Drow doesn't have to explain themselves to the city guard? Deception is definitely going to need to be a proficient skill.



It's raw and a little roundabout and depending on the game scenario possibly strong. Though you delay your spell level progression to do it so it may not be worth it. Would need to see it in play first.

This is also my interpretation. I'm also not sure this actually reaches broken levels of play. Delayed spell progression hurts any build, and even NI low level spells can't make up for that. The optimal situation for Java would probably be one where there are just tons and tons of low level mooks requiring tons and tons of AoE to deal with them. Java can keep dropping burning hands and fireballs all day long, but never gets more disintegrate than that single classed evoker.
If Java hits warlock 3 and gets pact of the tome and book of ancient secrets invocation, then that would open up a lot of utility, but Java is a consistent, AoE blaster through and through.

[Person_Man]

I'd allow this as a DM as long as the player was willing to eat progressively harder Constitution Saves vs Exhaustion. Even if you don't physically need the sleep, mentally holding all of that spell potential has got to take some kind of toll. A lot would also depend on the play themselves. If they really just want an insomniac who spams low level spells (while their allies get progressively better spells/abilities), I have no problem with that. But if they're using this as an end run around the rules to try and break my game, they will soon be introduced to some improbably precise and deadly falling rocks.

[VoxRationis]

Is there a reason I'm not seeing for why this is drow-specific? All elves trance, right?

[Madfellow]

Java Do'Urden would still need to trance for 4 hours every day, or else any activity on subsequent days would count as a forced march, and (s)he'd have to start making Con saves vs Exhaustion. And any DM worth their salt would rule that his/her spell slots and sorcery points can't exceed their maximums; infinite spell slots is dumb.

[Symphony]

Java Do'Urden would still need to trance for 4 hours every day, or else any activity on subsequent days would count as a forced march, and (s)he'd have to start making Con saves vs Exhaustion. And any DM worth their salt would rule that his/her spell slots and sorcery points can't exceed their maximums; infinite spell slots is dumb.

So if I'm a level 2 Sorcerer, whose only use for my 2 sorcery points is to convert them into a single level 1 spell slot, you wouldn't let me do it until I cast a spell?

[Chronos]

I think the only reason for using drow is that they get a Cha bonus, which is handy on a sorc/warlock.

[XmonkTad]

I'd allow this as a DM as long as the player was willing to eat progressively harder Constitution Saves vs Exhaustion. Even if you don't physically need the sleep, mentally holding all of that spell potential has got to take some kind of toll. A lot would also depend on the play themselves. If they really just want an insomniac who spams low level spells (while their allies get progressively better spells/abilities), I have no problem with that.


I feel that those houserules would be a little harsh. I would argue that trance helps restore mental fatigue as well and that it's thanks to nightly trances that Java is able to hold this amount of magical potential. And a low level spell spammer will either contribute next to nothing or run circles around the rest of the party depending on the challenges that you, as the DM, would present to them.



But if they're using this as an end run around the rules to try and break my game, they will soon be introduced to some improbably precise and deadly falling rocks.

It's not running around the rules! It's exactly how the rules are written :smalltongue:.

[Easy_Lee]

It's not running around the rules! It's exactly how the rules are written :smalltongue:.

As written, reach weapons make your arms grow 5' longer every time you attack with them. While I'm very much a RAW player, I think that we have to draw the line somewhere.

[XmonkTad]

Is there a reason I'm not seeing for why this is drow-specific? All elves trance, right?


I think the only reason for using drow is that they get a Cha bonus, which is handy on a sorc/warlock.

Chronos got it. But yes, it's not Drow specific.


Java Do'Urden would still need to trance for 4 hours every day, or else any activity on subsequent days would count as a forced march, and (s)he'd have to start making Con saves vs Exhaustion.


See what Symphony said. As for needing to trance for 4 hours a day, that's 100% true. But does trance require you to use all 4 hours at once? You don't have to sleep for 8 hours straight to gain the benefits of a long rest (if you're a human) so why would trance be uninterruptible? Even if it was, the build wouldn't break, just be slower.



And any DM worth their salt would rule that his/her spell slots and sorcery points can't exceed their maximums; infinite spell slots is dumb.

DM doesn't need to rule that sorcery points can't exceed their maximum, it's in the rules.
Infinite spell slots would be powerful, but not an instant win button. Keep in mind that these are limited to level 5 and below and spell progression in terms of "what level of spells you know to cast" is always below the single classed full caster (until they both cap out). Some DMs may allow that level of power in their game. Some even expect it.

[XmonkTad]

As written, reach weapons make your arms grow 5' longer every time you attack with them. While I'm very much a RAW player, I think that we have to draw the line somewhere.

I agree with the sentiment. Decide is cheese is right for your table!

[Madfellow]

So if I'm a level 2 Sorcerer, whose only use for my 2 sorcery points is to convert them into a single level 1 spell slot, you wouldn't let me do it until I cast a spell?

That's how I would rule it, yes.

[XmonkTad]

That's how I would rule it, yes.

And if you were the DM then that would be fine. But a DM that doesn't want to homebrew that rule would allow it.

[Forum Explorer]

So if I'm a level 2 Sorcerer, whose only use for my 2 sorcery points is to convert them into a single level 1 spell slot, you wouldn't let me do it until I cast a spell?

Nope!


All that stuff you brought up would be adding rules that don't exist. If one interpretation requires adding whole sentences of extra rules and another requires no additional sentences, then the latter is the RAW.

Warlock spell slots are regained on a short rest. As long add you use them up they come back.
Sorcery points may be turned into spell slots. No expiration our max number of slots listed. This idea of max spell slots our slot expiration is only brought up because some may see this as a balance issue. Perceived balance issues are a reason for an errata rule change or a dm rule change... not for reading raw.

It's raw and a little roundabout and depending on the game scenario possibly strong. Though you delay your spell level progression to do it so it may not be worth it. Would need to see it in play first.

I really need to add this to my sig, but I don't care about RAW one whit. I only care about RAI, RACS, and RAF.

Because this doesn't look overly powerful, I think I would allow this particular combo for a sillier game, likely a one shot.


And if you were the DM then that would be fine. But a DM that doesn't want to homebrew that rule would allow it.

I hate this attitude. Saying that your interpretation isn't allowed, because this is a case where the rules simply don't state a rule on way or the other, doesn't mean that you are homebrewing anything.

Homebrewing implies actually changing an existing rule, not filling a gap not covered by the rules.

Basically if the rules explicitly stated that you could stack spell slots to beyond what you gain per rest, then yes, saying no would be homebrewing. But it doesn't, so it's not.

[SharkForce]

"you can use your sorcery points to gain additional spell slots..."

sounds like it is explicitly allowed to me.

not saying i would necessarily allow this if i were DM (main problem being i'd want to playtest it for balance first, but then if i say no later it kinda screws the one trick the entire character was built around), but it is definitely allowed unless you houserule otherwise.

my main concern would be with downtime... i don't think it would really be much of a problem overnight, but if you took a week off or something like that, you could easily build up a ridiculous number of level 5 spell slots.

[VoxRationis]

I really need to add this to my sig, but I don't care about RAW one whit. I only care about RAI, RACS, and RAF.


It's this forum's finest hour.

[Malifice]

I don't see anything wrong with it strictly RAW. Although it clearly contravenes RAI.

It plays on the short rest mechanic which is a function of the DND metagame. Most DMs simply won't allow the Multiple short rest premise it's built on, and will stick to enforcing 2-3 short rests per long rest meta.

Even if it's as simple as:

Player -''I short rest again'
DM: 'Nothing happens, aside from you wasting an hour. Also, seeing as you haven't taken a 4 hour trance in a while, make me a DC10 con save to avoid gaining a level of fatigue'

[XmonkTad]

I hate this attitude. Saying that your interpretation isn't allowed, because this is a case where the rules simply don't state a rule on way or the other, doesn't mean that you are homebrewing anything.

Homebrewing implies actually changing an existing rule, not filling a gap not covered by the rules.

Basically if the rules explicitly stated that you could stack spell slots to beyond what you gain per rest, then yes, saying no would be homebrewing. But it doesn't, so it's not.

Maybe "homebrew" is the wrong term, but it is definitely a house rule. There isn't a reasonable way that I could predict what anyone's house rules are, which is why this forum generally deals with RAW. This build deals exclusively with that RAW because it's what I can predict. I wouldn't say it isn't "allowed" but it's really hard to argue with "well I'm the DM at my table 3000 miles away from you and so what I say goes!" I'm interested to hear what people have to say, but the only person who's house rules are law are my DMs, whom it is not particularly useful to tell you all about.

I think I'll be updating the OP with the case for why stacking spell slots should be allowed by RAW.

[Malifice]

Maybe "homebrew" is the wrong term, but it is definitely a house rule. There isn't a reasonable way that I could predict what anyone's house rules are, which is why this forum generally deals with RAW. This build deals exclusively with that RAW because it's what I can predict. I wouldn't say it isn't "allowed" but it's really hard to argue with "well I'm the DM at my table 3000 miles away from you and so what I say goes!" I'm interested to hear what people have to say, but the only person who's house rules are law are my DMs, whom it is not particularly useful to tell you all about.

I think I'll be updating the OP with the case for why stacking spell slots should be allowed by RAW.

As a question, why place supremacy on interpretations of RAW in a vacuum of RAI?

Surely the latter should be used to interpret the former. We don't interpret laws in a vaccum in the courts, why do it at the game table?

[Forum Explorer]

Maybe "homebrew" is the wrong term, but it is definitely a house rule. There isn't a reasonable way that I could predict what anyone's house rules are, which is why this forum generally deals with RAW. This build deals exclusively with that RAW because it's what I can predict. I wouldn't say it isn't "allowed" but it's really hard to argue with "well I'm the DM at my table 3000 miles away from you and so what I say goes!" I'm interested to hear what people have to say, but the only person who's house rules are law are my DMs, whom it is not particularly useful to tell you all about.

I think I'll be updating the OP with the case for why stacking spell slots should be allowed by RAW.

House rule...perhaps. I'd argue that a ruling in either direction would be a house rule.

So perhaps you should put that in your OP? Where you found a blank spot in the rules that requires a house rule, one way or the other. You can argue why is should be one ruling over the other, but I find your assumption that without anything being stated that it's allowed, to be just as much of a house rule then anything I've encountered.

[XmonkTad]

As a question, why place supremacy on interpretations of RAW in a vacuum of RAI?

Surely the latter should be used to interpret the former. We don't interpret laws in a vacuum in the courts, why do it at the game table?

They talked about this a lot in the 3.5 forums, here is the link if you want to read a bit about it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240444-RAW-vs-RAI-When-did-TO-become-the-norm). Basically, it's just impossible to determine what RAI is with any objectivity. At the game table a lot of the things we come up with online wouldn't work at all, or wouldn't be allowed. However, when we talk about some of this stuff online, it is in a vacuum. Java isn't a character that has ever seen a table (though I did show it to my DM).


House rule...perhaps. I'd argue that a ruling in either direction would be a house rule.

So perhaps you should put that in your OP? Where you found a blank spot in the rules that requires a house rule, one way or the other. You can argue why is should be one ruling over the other, but I find your assumption that without anything being stated that it's allowed, to be just as much of a house rule then anything I've encountered.

That's fair. I'll mention it.

[Malifice]

They talked about this a lot in the 3.5 forums, here is the link if you want to read a bit about it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240444-RAW-vs-RAI-When-did-TO-become-the-norm). Basically, it's just impossible to determine what RAI is with any objectivity. At the game table a lot of the things we come up with online wouldn't work at all, or wouldn't be allowed. However, when we talk about some of this stuff online, it is in a vacuum. Java isn't a character that has ever seen a table (though I did show it to my DM).



That's fair. I'll mention it.

Without wanting to get all postmodern on you, how can the text itself be considered objective?

And why is it desirable to ignore the context (RAI) those witten rules exist in?

Surely any rules interpretation that ignores the context of the rule and the intent of the rule, can result in an incorrect interpretation of the rule as written?

In this case you're clearly ignoring the intent of short rests (discussed in the DMG) and tbe context of how they are to be implemented in the game, and falling back on the literal wording of the rule in isolation of its intent and context.

It's no different to the Supreme Court of the US ruling the 'right to bear arms' as being a right to own ursine hands, or in a less absurdist RAW authorising the private ownership of nuclear weapons. Same deal with biblical texts, which are not taken literally, but read in context.

Context and intent of any text is the framing of the text itself. Reading something in isolation of that context and intent means you lose that key to understanding the texts meaning.

Sorry for getting postmodern here, but I find arguments relying on RAW in isolation of RAI and other contxt to be an exercise in reducto ad absurdum.

[XmonkTad]

Without wanting to get all postmodern on you, how can the text itself be considered objective?

And why is it desirable to ignore the context (RAI) those written rules exist in?

Surely any rules interpretation that ignores the context of the rule and the intent of the rule, can result in an incorrect interpretation of the rule as written?


That's a heavy one. The text is considered objective because without the text there is no game (or at least, it's not D&D 5th ed). It's mechanics are quite objective, "add 2d6" means you add 2d6 and can't really fuss about that too much. A computer, if given those mechanical rules would come up with that interpretation no problem. It is reproducible. That's what RAW means to me: that a different person could read the rules and, trying to follow them as mechanically as possible, would come up with the same interpretation. Sometimes that will yield silly results.

To turn your postmodern-ness back on you: how can you know the entire context that a rule was written in? Is the only context the text of the book? What about the pictures, they're in the book too?



In this case you're clearly ignoring the intent of short rests (discussed in the DMG) and the context of how they are to be implemented in the game, and falling back on the literal wording of the rule in isolation of its intent and context.


Well in this, at least, I may defend myself. I am not ignoring the purpose of short rests. Short rests are small breaks taken to "refresh their minds and spirits for spellcasting" (PHB 186) and that's exactly what Java does. Java spends her sleepless nights recuperating and storing her power, but because her nights also involve the stress of draining her power and storing it, they can't possibly completely restful as a long rest would be. I'm using short rests exactly as they were intended: as breaks from doing something else.

I'm not sure where in the DMG you're reading about the purpose of short rests. I'm getting my info from the PHB and looking through the DMG I don't see anything on the purpose of resting. On DMG 84 it says that parties will likely need to take two short rests, but other than the variant rules that's all I found.



Sorry for getting postmodern here, but I find arguments relying on RAW in isolation of RAI and other context to be an exercise in reducto ad absurdum.


Let me sum up with this: there is no way my RAW is better than your RAI if I'm at your table (and you're the DM). If our RAW doesn't agree then it's because we don't agree on what words mean (I've seen one too many arguments about the word "and"). If we disagree about RAI we could be arguing about what is "reasonable" (which is why you see so much reducto ad absurdum) and what's reasonable at my table might be very different than what's reasonable at yours.

After all, maybe I created Java to stand on par with a half-orc barbarian who just grabbed a custom magic item that makes every attack that hits a crit. If that's the power level of my table, what good is it for me to say "it's reasonable for a level 3 character to do upwards of 50 damage a round" when that's not reasonable for you at all? It's like we're not even playing the same game at that point. I wrote in Java's OP (before any edits even!) that you need to assess the power level of your table before breaking Java out. "It's not for everyone" is different from "it doesn't work because I think they meant to have a rule forbidding doing just that."

[Malifice]

That's a heavy one. The text is considered objective because without the text there is no game (or at least, it's not D&D 5th ed). It's mechanics are quite objective, "add 2d6" means you add 2d6 and can't really fuss about that too much. A computer, if given those mechanical rules would come up with that interpretation no problem. It is reproducible. That's what RAW means to me: that a different person could read the rules and, trying to follow them as mechanically as possible, would come up with the same interpretation. Sometimes that will yield silly results. at."

Yes but this isn't a computer game is it? It expressly requires human interpretation of those rules. Via a social contract no less.


To turn your postmodern-ness back on you: how can you know the entire context that a rule was written in? Is the only context the text of the book? What about the pictures, they're in the book too?at."

The context the book was written in is down to several thjngs. First it's the intent of the rule itself, taking into account the rules as a whole. In this case the short rest mechanic is designed to be a meta game mechanic to allow DMs to balance encounters, pace adventures and so forth. See the DMG for a discussion. The standard number of short rests is given at 2-3 per long rest, broken up by encointers either side. Cycling short rests is not discussed in the text of the rules as its not considered something that would occur; the texts silence on the matter doesn't aithorise such rest cycling as you interpret.

The second method of interpreting (and the most important) lies in the interpretation of the reader, not the intent of the author. It's true postmodernism here, but it's doubly relevant in the fact that the interpretation of the RAW isn't down to some fictional objective person, but in every case down to a real DM. The rules (quite literally) do not exist outside of such interpretation, as much as you try and make that claim.

In my campaigns, I (as the DM) interpret the RAW. I use RAI and RAC to do so (among many other tools).

If RAW existed (and I posit that it does not) then every table would be the same. They aren't. Human beings are involved and we need a point of reference to interpret anything. Not even a single word has meaning in and of itself without subjective interpretation having regards to the context in which the word appears.

In a nutshell, I refute the argument that a 'text in and of itself' even exists. The Devs even posted recently on the topic of RAI, RAF and RAW.

That said, yoir build is interesting from a theory craft position.

[Person_Man]

I think its fair to say that this isn't something the designers intended. Mearls in particular almost always rules against combinations that aren't clearly discussed in the rules, and dislikes rules lawyers and power gamers. (At least in social media and at game conventions. I haven't played a real game with him as DM).

Again, I'm not saying I'd have any problem with it, and clearly I spend a chunk of my time thinking about unintended combinations and how they'd be fun. I'm just saying the 5E designers probably didn't anticipate this combination.

[Inevitability]

How about using a warforged instead? You lose the charisma bonus, but you probably have an easier time convincing your DM to allow it.

[XmonkTad]

Yes but this isn't a computer game is it? It expressly requires human interpretation of those rules. Via a social contract no less.

That's true. But the human interpretation differs. It can differ to the point where actions, builds, and even entire campaigns can't be understood because our notion of the rules are so different. That's ok. When we're around the table, that's what we want is the unique experience that only the act of being around the table can bring. It's not a computer game, because every game is unique. Reproducibility of the rules is important for discussion, but not for play.

Said another way, is there any 100% completely unambiguously RAW character that's appropriate for every table? I think the answer is no. Doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss characters. My OP is full of "ask your DM if Java is right for you."



In a nutshell, I refute the argument that a 'text in and of itself' even exists. The Devs even posted recently on the topic of RAI, RAF and RAW.

That said, your build is interesting from a theory craft position.

Well thank you. That's all this build was going for. "Interesting" may not always be "playable" but it doesn't have to be to be interesting. So thank you. Also, could you post that dev talk about RAW/RAI/RAF?


I think its fair to say that this isn't something the designers intended. Mearls in particular almost always rules against combinations that aren't clearly discussed in the rules, and dislikes rules lawyers and power gamers. (At least in social media and at game conventions. I haven't played a real game with him as DM).

Again, I'm not saying I'd have any problem with it, and clearly I spend a chunk of my time thinking about unintended combinations and how they'd be fun. I'm just saying the 5E designers probably didn't anticipate this combination.

Designers 100% did not intend for this interaction. Mearls and Crawford have both said that they want the DM to decide what's right for their game. That being said, WotC in general recognizes power gamers and Magic the Gathering designs with them in mind (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b). I agree that rules lawyering/powergaming is part of the fun, so why not?


I think even if just the target is in sunlight the penalty still applies.


Can't the Wis be 12?

Sunlight sensitivity is very clear that if you or your target are in direct sunlight, then yes, you have disadvantage. But would sunglasses negate that? It's up to the DM! Some people have suggested this as a "fix" for Drow so that people can actually play them, but I don't think it's necessary.

And yes, you're right. That Wis should be 12. That's a typo on my part.

[XmonkTad]

How about using a warforged instead? You lose the charisma bonus, but you probably have an easier time convincing your DM to allow it.

Totally viable, and you don't really take a hit to Cha (you just spend extra points there). As for convincing my particular DM, we actually don't like Warforged at our table after an unfortunate incident of a really loud player pretending to be mechanical Bruce Willis. But, if your DM prefers Warforged to Drow it works just as well (and maybe even better than the other types of Elves).

[RedMage125]

Minor nitpick on your OP here (didn't see if anyone else said it, so I apologize if it's been covered):

1- You have the Friends cantrip for your cantrips known for both classes.
2- You have too many Warlock spells known. You get 2. The Archfey patron adds those spells to your class list for purposes of when you choose your spells known, but they are knot "spells automatically known" like how cleric domain spells work.

[Madfellow]

The problem here isn't really about the warlock/sorcerer multiclass build. Eating spell slots for sorcery points only gets you a number of sorcery points equal to the level of the spell(s). Turning spell points into spell slots is actually more expensive, so if you try to use this method to turn warlock spell slots into sorcerer spell slots, you end up giving up more than you get back. It's inefficient to the point of actually being pretty much pointless.

The problem isn't, "Can a warlock/sorcerer multiclass get infinite spell slots?" Instead, it's, "Can a sorcerer (single-class or not) get infinite spell slots?" As written, there's actually nothing to prevent it. Each day you convert all of your sorcery points into spell slots, and the next day you get all of your points back. There's no rule that says spell slots bought with sorcery points disappear if they're not used. That is the problem here.

What this means is that the sorcerer, as written, is broken. It can buy spell slots and store them indefinitely, which completely breaks the game's assumptions about daily resource expenditure for a full spellcaster. No sane DM would allow this at their table, but luckily this problem is solved with very simple house rule: You can never have more spell slots than indicated by your level on the Sorcerer table. I also expect that this bug will be patched as soon as Wizards gets around to publishing errata for 5th.

Edit: And I just went and re-read the rules for trances. It says that trances grant the same benefit as 8 hours of sleep, but that's not the same as saying they grant the same benefit as a long rest. The rules for long rests don't mention trances at all; it just says that a long rest is a period of extended downtime lasting at least 8 hours. Sleep (or the racial equivalent) is not a necessary ingredient. What this means is that an elf cannot just trance for 4 hours to get the benefits of a long rest; they have to be "resting" the for the full 8 hours, just like anybody else. So we're back to square 1 in that if she did spend the entire night taking short rests for sorcery points, she would then have to start rolling against Exhaustion. In other words, the build doesn't even work. At all.

Sorry for being a party pooper.

[SiuiS]

This is amazing and you deserve a hug. ^^

[Chronos]

I think the assumption is that, ordinarily, a sorcerer would lose any excess slots the next time he took a long rest and refreshed the slots. That works fine, ordinarily. It's just that this build subverts it by never taking a long rest.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I think this is hosed by the line "Regardless of how many spells a caster knows or prepares, he or she can cast only a limited number of spells before resting" in chapter 10. Java, while not infinite in his capacity, has no limit. A thing cannot be and not be at the same time in the same way. His spellcasting cannot be limited and unlimited, and the line I quoted is unambiguous in meaning, compared to the somewhat ambiguous lines Java relies on, so I think the unambiguous line saying limits exist trumps the interpretation that they don't.

That's what I have to add on the RAW front.

That being said, I think this sounds cool. I think the min sorc / max 'lock is probably actually balanced. Unlimited level one sorcerer spells in exchange for being two level behind on all sorts of warlock stuff. Min warlock / max sorcerer seems imbalanced. I don't know exactly where I'd draw the line. I don't think this actually works RAW, but I'd be Ok with playing in a game where the DA let it slide up to some point.

[Eisenheim]

I don't think that line really short circuits this, insofar as it seems like it's just a summary of the fact, also encoded in the spells per day table, that casters have limited spell slots. I don't think it does more than show that this combination of peculiar rules was not intended or envisioned by the designers, which has been quite obvious for the whole thread.

[Madfellow]

I don't think that line really short circuits this, insofar as it seems like it's just a summary of the fact, also encoded in the spells per day table, that casters have limited spell slots. I don't think it does more than show that this combination of peculiar rules was not intended or envisioned by the designers, which has been quite obvious for the whole thread.

Again, the combination is not the problem. The sorcerer is the problem.

[XmonkTad]

Minor nitpick on your OP here (didn't see if anyone else said it, so I apologize if it's been covered):

1- You have the Friends cantrip for your cantrips known for both classes.
2- You have too many Warlock spells known. You get 2. The Archfey patron adds those spells to your class list for purposes of when you choose your spells known, but they are knot "spells automatically known" like how cleric domain spells work.

You're right on both counts so I fixed both counts. Thank you for pointing these out!


The problem here isn't really about the warlock/sorcerer multiclass build. Eating spell slots for sorcery points only gets you a number of sorcery points equal to the level of the spell(s). Turning spell points into spell slots is actually more expensive, so if you try to use this method to turn warlock spell slots into sorcerer spell slots, you end up giving up more than you get back. It's inefficient to the point of actually being pretty much pointless.

The problem isn't, "Can a warlock/sorcerer multiclass get infinite spell slots?" Instead, it's, "Can a sorcerer (single-class or not) get infinite spell slots?" As written, there's actually nothing to prevent it. Each day you convert all of your sorcery points into spell slots, and the next day you get all of your points back. There's no rule that says spell slots bought with sorcery points disappear if they're not used. That is the problem here.

What this means is that the sorcerer, as written, is broken. It can buy spell slots and store them indefinitely, which completely breaks the game's assumptions about daily resource expenditure for a full spellcaster. No sane DM would allow this at their table, but luckily this problem is solved with very simple house rule: You can never have more spell slots than indicated by your level on the Sorcerer table. I also expect that this bug will be patched as soon as Wizards gets around to publishing errata for 5th.

Edit: And I just went and re-read the rules for trances. It says that trances grant the same benefit as 8 hours of sleep, but that's not the same as saying they grant the same benefit as a long rest. The rules for long rests don't mention trances at all; it just says that a long rest is a period of extended downtime lasting at least 8 hours. Sleep (or the racial equivalent) is not a necessary ingredient. What this means is that an elf cannot just trance for 4 hours to get the benefits of a long rest; they have to be "resting" the for the full 8 hours, just like anybody else. So we're back to square 1 in that if she did spend the entire night taking short rests for sorcery points, she would then have to start rolling against Exhaustion. In other words, the build doesn't even work. At all.

Sorry for being a party pooper.

If you only have 1 night of short rest power building, then it's definitely not better than a long rest. I wrote in the OP that comparing "available sorcery points are a false equivalency" but it's to illustrate your nightly power production.

The rules for trances say you don't need to sleep, but that 4 hours of trance gives you the same benefits that a human gains from 8 hours of sleep. That benefit is not feeling tired. Java doesn't want to take a long rest, so only needing 4 hours of downtime is great. The 4 hours of downtime prevents you from having to make con checks. The question for the DM is: does a trance need to be uninterrupted? I think no, because if a human wakes up at night to go to the bathroom, that doesn't mean they don't gain the benefits of sleeping. Of course, that's me bringing my bias/real world logic into D&D, which is an exercise in madness.

I'm not actually sure the errata will fix this, but I look forward to the 5th ed errata. Houserules fix it, and that's fine for most tables, but RAW it stands.

A regular sorcerer could do this as soon as they get their capstone. I'm not sure they can before then because it requires a long rest to get back sorcery points, which resets their spell slots. A sorcerer 20 is just as good (and probably better optimized) than a sorc 17/warlock 3.

And you're not a party pooper.


This is amazing and you deserve a hug. ^^

:smallredface: thank you!


I think the assumption is that, ordinarily, a sorcerer would lose any excess slots the next time he took a long rest and refreshed the slots. That works fine, ordinarily. It's just that this build subverts it by never taking a long rest.

This is exactly right, at least by my reading.


I think this is hosed by the line "Regardless of how many spells a caster knows or prepares, he or she can cast only a limited number of spells before resting" in chapter 10. Java, while not infinite in his capacity, has no limit. A thing cannot be and not be at the same time in the same way. His spellcasting cannot be limited and unlimited, and the line I quoted is unambiguous in meaning, compared to the somewhat ambiguous lines Java relies on, so I think the unambiguous line saying limits exist trumps the interpretation that they don't.

That's what I have to add on the RAW front.

That being said, I think this sounds cool. I think the min sorc / max 'lock is probably actually balanced. Unlimited level one sorcerer spells in exchange for being two level behind on all sorts of warlock stuff. Min warlock / max sorcerer seems imbalanced. I don't know exactly where I'd draw the line. I don't think this actually works RAW, but I'd be Ok with playing in a game where the DA let it slide up to some point.

From a RAW perspective "specific beats general." And the sorcery point spell slot buy mechanic is very specific. Every other spellcasting classes' recovery mechanic also defies that rule.
See what Eisenheim says below:


I don't think that line really short circuits this, insofar as it seems like it's just a summary of the fact, also encoded in the spells per day table, that casters have limited spell slots. I don't think it does more than show that this combination of peculiar rules was not intended or envisioned by the designers, which has been quite obvious for the whole thread.

This is right.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Every other spellcasting classes' recovery mechanic also defies that rule.

No, they don't. The general rule is only that it must be limited. Arcane recovery, for instance, is clearly well within this general rule - while it allows you to cast spells beyond the limits of the spells per day table, it does so while maintaining a limit on the number of spells you may cast in a day.

Your interpretation of the font of magic spellcasting feature is that it places no limit on the number of spells a character could cast in one day. That's different.


From a RAW perspective "specific beats general." And the sorcery point spell slot buy mechanic is very specific.

Specific may cancel general, that's absolutely true. But this isn't that. Further on in the text, it says, "Some characters and monsters have special abilities that let them cast spells without using spell slots." For instance, wizards get spell mastery. That's a special ability that specifically allows unlimited casting.

There are some cases when you can say that an ambiguous wording leaves us in the realm where RAW can go crazy, and one can only reign it in with soft arguments about RAI. This isn't one of those cases. A written rule establishes how things normally function. Nowhere in the font of magic class feature does it say that you can ignore the general rule against limitless casting. There is nothing specific to justify the violation of the general rule.

[XmonkTad]

Again, the combination is not the problem. The sorcerer is the problem.

I think the sorcerer only gets this ability when they get their capstone, which seems on par with things like infinite wild shape.


No, they don't. The general rule is only that it must be limited. Arcane recovery, for instance, is clearly well within this general rule - while it allows you to cast spells beyond the limits of the spells per day table, it does so while maintaining a limit on the number of spells you may cast in a day.

Your interpretation of the font of magic spellcasting feature is that it places no limit on the number of spells a character could cast in one day. That's different.



Specific may cancel general, that's absolutely true. But this isn't that. Further on in the text, it says, "Some characters and monsters have special abilities that let them cast spells without using spell slots." For instance, wizards get spell mastery. That's a special ability that specifically allows unlimited casting.

There are some cases when you can say that an ambiguous wording leaves us in the realm where RAW can go crazy, and one can only reign it in with soft arguments about RAI. This isn't one of those cases. A written rule establishes how things normally function. Nowhere in the font of magic class feature does it say that you can ignore the general rule against limitless casting. There is nothing specific to justify the violation of the general rule.

First of all, this isn't truly infinite casting. It's Nearly Infinite, but you never actually get infinite.

Second the specific rule says it creates spell slots. Not infinite spell slots, just one of a certain level. "You can transform unexpected sorcery points into one spell slot" is the text, and it works fine.

[Malifice]

Its perfectly acceptable to allow MC Sorcerer/ Locks to burn un-expended warlock spell slots into additional sorcery points.

If you enforce the default 2-3 short rests per long rest/ 8 encounter adventuring day, it breaks absolutely nothing.

[Madfellow]

Java doesn't want to take a long rest, so only needing 4 hours of downtime is great. The 4 hours of downtime prevents you from having to make con checks.

You need to read the rules for Forced Marches and Resting (pages 181 and 186 respectively). Forced March rules say that if you travel for more than 8 hours in a day, you have to start rolling against Exhaustion. The Resting rules say that a long rest is what counts as ending one day and starting the next. They also say that a long rest is 8 hours. This is not conditional. Elves do not get to take 4-hour long rests. They have to wait the requisite 8 hours just like everybody else. Sleeping is not the same as taking a long rest. You can do both at the same time, but one is not considered to be equivalent to the other. Java cannot just trance for 4 hours and be good. Nor can she just skip a long rest without negative consequences. The build doesn't work. I'm sorry.

[Forum Explorer]

Oh that could be a problem. Your DM might rule that doing 8 short rests back to back will count as a single long rest unless you go do something strenuous.

[Chronos]

Your character has a limited lifespan, and a limited number of hours in that lifespan, therefore you still have a limit on your number of spell slots. It's an extremely high limit, but it's still a limit.

[Malifice]

Oh that could be a problem. Your DM might rule that doing 8 short rests back to back will count as a single long rest unless you go do something strenuous.

I doubt many (if indeed any) DM's would allow someone to take 8 short rests in a row. Or even 2 in a row. Or for that matter, abuse the rest mechanic in any way.

The intent of the mechanic (resource management) is clear from a reading of the DMG. And the DM's responsibility in all that is overseeing that player resource management (depleting it via appropriate encounters). My players know that most adventuring days they can take 2-3 short rests per long rest. They take them when needed (when resources are low). It's a collaborative decision made by the PC's as a group.

Same deal with long rests. I'm well aware of the 5 minute adventuring day. Any caster who novas in the first few encounters, better settle in for a long session of suckage for half a dozen encounters of hiding behind the Fighter before contributing nothing in the BBEG fights where those high level spells are actually needed.

After hitting them with this once, they fall into line, and ration spell slots accordingly.

I would apply the exact same RAI reading of the RAW to old Java here. He could take 2-3 short rests in an adventuring day (not during downtime) to burn slots into SP's. During that time he will face around 8 encounters. He then needs to take a long rest before getting access to any more short rests.

[Giant2005]

Why does the long rest thing even matter? There is no rule stating that you lose any excess spell slots upon taking a long rest.

You don't need Warlock levels nor do you need to forgo a long rest to make this work. At the end of each adventuring day you simply convert any and all remaining spell slots into points and use those points (and whatever remaining points you had) to create more spell slots. After the long rest, the spell slots you spent have recovered while the spell slots you created remain intact.

[Madfellow]

Why does the long rest thing even matter? There is no rule stating that you lose any excess spell slots upon taking a long rest.

You don't need Warlock levels nor do you need to forgo a long rest to make this work. At the end of each adventuring day you simply convert any and all remaining spell slots into points and use those points (and whatever remaining points you had) to create more spell slots. After the long rest, the spell slots you spent have recovered while the spell slots you created remain intact.

Yes, I said this on the previous page. The sorcerer, as written, is broken and needs to be patched.

[XmonkTad]

Why does the long rest thing even matter? There is no rule stating that you lose any excess spell slots upon taking a long rest.

You don't need Warlock levels nor do you need to forgo a long rest to make this work. At the end of each adventuring day you simply convert any and all remaining spell slots into points and use those points (and whatever remaining points you had) to create more spell slots. After the long rest, the spell slots you spent have recovered while the spell slots you created remain intact.

That's not a strict reading on my part, the actual rule just says "Finishing a long rest restores any expended spell slots" which (if you're reading is very... unusual) could mean that you have the spell slots listed on the table for your level restored to you if you cast a spell that day (which in Java's case makes them go down). Java's build/personality is as much for flavor as anything else. A Drow driven mad by lack of sleep hears voices urging them to horde power turns to coffee for solace? That's a character I could actually envision!

A much more strict TO infinite-slot spellcaster would probably just be a Warforged Sorcerer 20 who uses the capstone the same way Java uses spell slots. The TO Warforged however, operates on about the same level as any other 20th level character (infinite wild shapes/rages/wizard spell), and so it's not quite the same as having a level 3 pull of this trick. Quick note: that Warforged has been pulling this trick off since level 2, just much slower.


Yes, I said this on the previous page. The sorcerer, as written, is broken and needs to be patched.

It's a little broken. I think the patch needs to be done in such a way that it doesn't mess up a sorcerer using their capstone this way, but that's for the designers to decide. I don't feel like 4 sorcery points recovered on a short rest is an appropriate capstone considering a wizard can do that at level 8 (once per long rest) and doubles it at level 16 (which puts the wizard on par with 2 level 20 sorcerer short rests).

[Forum Explorer]

That's not a strict reading on my part, the actual rule just says "Finishing a long rest restores any expended spell slots" which (if you're reading is very... unusual) could mean that you have the spell slots listed on the table for your level restored to you if you cast a spell that day (which in Java's case makes them go down). Java's build/personality is as much for flavor as anything else. A Drow driven mad by lack of sleep hears voices urging them to horde power turns to coffee for solace? That's a character I could actually envision!

A much more strict TO infinite-slot spellcaster would probably just be a Warforged Sorcerer 20 who uses the capstone the same way Java uses spell slots. The TO Warforged however, operates on about the same level as any other 20th level character (infinite wild shapes/rages/wizard spell), and so it's not quite the same as having a level 3 pull of this trick. Quick note: that Warforged has been pulling this trick off since level 2, just much slower.



It's a little broken. I think the patch needs to be done in such a way that it doesn't mess up a sorcerer using their capstone this way, but that's for the designers to decide. I don't feel like 4 sorcery points recovered on a short rest is an appropriate capstone considering a wizard can do that at level 8 (once per long rest) and doubles it at level 16 (which puts the wizard on par with 2 level 20 sorcerer short rests).


It is such an easy patch. Just 'You cannot have more spell slots then listed on the Spellcasting class table.' It simply means that a sorcerer actually has to use some spells before he can start creating more.

Honestly, I figure metamagic will be the greater use of Sorcery Points then bringing spells back.

[SharkForce]

yeah, considering how much sorcerers give up relative to wizards in exchange for metamagic, i would really hate to ever use sorcery points to generate spell slots on a sorcerer unless they last through to the next day. get rid of that, and your problems all disappear.

honestly, if anything, i would be more likely to ditch spells to recover sorcery points for metamagic. way better trade in my opinion.

[Capac Amaru]

If I was the DM I'd rule a fix like:

For each spell slot above the casters maximum, the chance of the spell triggering an effect from the wild magic table is doubled (1x2, 2x4, 3x8, etc). Any caster with more than the maximum slots suffers disadvantage on all ability checks and saving throws of the relevant casting ability score (int,wis,cha) until the slots are expended.

I might even throw in some problems maintaining sanity, magical mutations, and 3rd parties interested in investigating/purging the magical 'phenomenon'.

[Madfellow]

For each spell slot above the casters maximum, the chance of the spell triggering an effect from the wild magic table is doubled (1x2, 2x4, 3x8, etc).

This would only apply to Wild Magic sorcerers though.

[Capac Amaru]

This would only apply to Wild Magic sorcerers though.

You don't think a sorcerer of any kind pushing the limits of his power beyond his capabilities might not provoke wild magic surges or weird spell effects?

Well if you don't like that you could use spell failure instead, or make a custom 'magic abuse random effect' table.

[Malifice]

It's a little broken. I think the patch needs to be done in such a way that it doesn't mess up a sorcerer using their capstone this way, but that's for the designers to decide. I don't feel like 4 sorcery points recovered on a short rest is an appropriate capstone considering a wizard can do that at level 8 (once per long rest) and doubles it at level 16 (which puts the wizard on par with 2 level 20 sorcerer short rests).

This doesnt indicate to you that taking '20 short rests a day' is not RAI?

Try looking at it from a 2-3 short rests per long rest perspective.

Why does it need a patch? If a DM is happy with such absurdist rest cycling happening in their games, then go for it. I dare say most DM's will stick to the encounter pacing as outlined in the DMG, and allow 2-3 per long rest (sometimes they may allow more, sometimes less).


yeah, considering how much sorcerers give up relative to wizards in exchange for metamagic, i would really hate to ever use sorcery points to generate spell slots on a sorcerer unless they last through to the next day. get rid of that, and your problems all disappear.

honestly, if anything, i would be more likely to ditch spells to recover sorcery points for metamagic. way better trade in my opinion.

Out of curiosity, thoughts on the following homebrewed feat:

Metamagician
Prerequisite: Ability to cast spells


You have one sorcery point. You may add this sorcery point to any sorcery points you already have. You recover spent sorcery points on a long rest.
You know one metamagic option of your choice from the list available to sorcerers on page 102 of the PHB. You can spend your sorcery point on this or any other metamagic option you know.
As a bonus action on your turn, you can expend any one spell slot and gain extra sorcery points equal to the level of the spell slot expended.

[Giant2005]

You don't think a sorcerer of any kind pushing the limits of his power beyond his capabilities might not provoke wild magic surges or weird spell effects?

Well if you don't like that you could use spell failure instead, or make a custom 'magic abuse random effect' table.

A Sorcerer that is pushing the limits could possibly provoke Wild Magic Surges but that isn't what he was talking about. The issue with your rule is that it only applies to Wild Magic Sorcerers - Favoured Souls and Draconic Sorcerers have zero chance of Wild Surging and you can double that zero chance all day long and it will stay zero.

[Theodoxus]

Yes, I said this on the previous page. The sorcerer, as written, is broken and needs to be patched.

Nope, working as intended. Seriously, play a sorcerer, with your whole 4 spells known at 3rd level when metamagic kicks in. Ooh, you're such a powerhouse! Go you! No flexibility, no picking the right spell to hit the right save or get through the wrong resistance. So you can cast MM 2 extra times because you stopped at a farmhouse for a day? Big whoop.

It's not broken - it just looks that way on paper.

[Theodoxus]

A Sorcerer that is pushing the limits could possibly provoke Wild Magic Surges but that isn't what he was talking about. The issue with your rule is that it only applies to Wild Magic Sorcerers - Favoured Souls and Draconic Sorcerers have zero chance of Wild Surging and you can double that zero chance all day long and it will stay zero.

Or, he was talking about borrowing from the wild magic bloodline for this specific instance. Because it'd be flavorful, for people concerned about how 'broken' this is (hint: it isn't).

[Capac Amaru]

A Sorcerer that is pushing the limits could possibly provoke Wild Magic Surges but that isn't what he was talking about. The issue with your rule is that it only applies to Wild Magic Sorcerers - Favoured Souls and Draconic Sorcerers have zero chance of Wild Surging and you can double that zero chance all day long and it will stay zero.

Wild magic comes from the 'wild forces of chaos that underlie the order of creation'.

Its not unreasonable to suggest that any form of 'breaking' the 'rules' of magic has the potential to cause wild magic effects. I'd expect wild magic effects from wizards trying to create/cast 10+ level spells also.

[Giant2005]

Wild magic comes from the 'wild forces of chaos that underlie the order of creation'.

Its not unreasonable to suggest that any form of 'breaking' the 'rules' of magic has the potential to cause wild magic effects. I'd expect wild magic effects from wizards trying to create/cast 10+ level spells also.

That isn't the point. The point is that doubling the chance of a Wild Magic Surge does nothing at all if you aren't a Wild Mage.
For a Wild Mage, their chance is 1/20, doubling that would increase it to 2/20.
For a Sorcerer of any other origin, their chance is 0/20, doubling that would increase it to 0/20.

[Capac Amaru]

That isn't the point. The point is that doubling the chance of a Wild Magic Surge does nothing at all if you aren't a Wild Mage.
For a Wild Mage, their chance is 1/20, doubling that would increase it to 2/20.
For a Sorcerer of any other origin, their chance is 0/20, doubling that would increase it to 0/20.

"For each spell slot above the casters maximum [there is a chance of triggering a wild magic surge as per the table on page 104 in the PHB.] The chance of the spell triggering an effect from the wild magic table is doubled (1x2, 2x4, 3x8, etc) [for each spell slot beyond the casters maximum]."

So your problem is that I wasn't implying heavily enough that I was adding a wild magic surge possibility to ANY archetype?

Fix'd.

So if Espresso McFireball has 3 level 1 spell slots, but he somehow finagles his way into having 9 level 1 slots through cheesemongering, then the first 2 spells he cast have a 100% chance to generate a wild magic surge, his third has a 4/5ths chance, his forth a 2/5ths chance, his fifth a 1/5th chance, his sixth a 1/10 chance, and his regular 3 spells cast normally.

Espresso suffers disadvantage on all charisma checks and saving throws until he has used the first six 'extra' slots.

He takes 6 'sanity damage', receives a random magical mutation, and a nearby cleric of Mystra sends paladins of the Knights of Mystic Fire to investigate the disruption of the weave.

[SharkForce]

Out of curiosity, thoughts on the following homebrewed feat:

Metamagician
Prerequisite: Ability to cast spells


You have one sorcery point. You may add this sorcery point to any sorcery points you already have. You recover spent sorcery points on a long rest.
You know one metamagic option of your choice from the list available to sorcerers on page 102 of the PHB. You can spend your sorcery point on this or any other metamagic option you know.
As a bonus action on your turn, you can expend any one spell slot and gain extra sorcery points equal to the level of the spell slot expended.


my thoughts on it are that as much as i might wish to have such a feat in the game, it takes away a lot from the sorcerer when you give away even a little bit of metamagic because that is basically the only thing going in their favour.

sorcerers have given so much to gain metamagic that i just can't see letting anyone else get it, even in such a limited way, without taking sorcerer levels or otherwise giving up a huge amount.

which is unfortunate, because i feel like certain metamagic options almost need to be available to everyone.

also, this feat almost becomes a requirement for sorcerers. not for the sorcery point of course, but for the bonus metamagic known.

[Malifice]

my thoughts on it are that as much as i might wish to have such a feat in the game, it takes away a lot from the sorcerer when you give away even a little bit of metamagic because that is basically the only thing going in their favour.

sorcerers have given so much to gain metamagic that i just can't see letting anyone else get it, even in such a limited way, without taking sorcerer levels or otherwise giving up a huge amount.

which is unfortunate, because i feel like certain metamagic options almost need to be available to everyone.

also, this feat almost becomes a requirement for sorcerers. not for the sorcery point of course, but for the bonus metamagic known.

Its no different to Martial Adept in the final respect.

Anyone can get Metamagic via a simple 2 level dip into Sorcerer. You get 2 Sorcery points for doing so, and learn (AFB) 2 or three options, AND can convert SP's into more slots (which the feat doesnt allow).

There isnt much difference from Wizard 18/ Sorcerer 2 (loses capstone and an ASI that would have been spend on the feat) than a Wizard 20 with this feat (uses the 19th level ASI to learn the feat, keeps Capstone, and only has the single MM option and less SP's, and inability to convert SP's to extra spells).

That was my logic anyways. It also gives casters something to do with feats to differentuate themselves (and allows Sorcerers to further specialise in MM).

[SharkForce]

metamagic is level 3 for sorcerers (and it's only 2 options). level 2 only gets you the font.

so right there, you're losing out big time on unlimited shield and mirror image (or replace those with spells of your choice) for the wizard.

but the real kicker is the delayed access to new spells. you either go 17 levels of wizard and then don't get access to metamagic until level 20, which is basically the same as "never", or you pick up 3 levels of sorcerer in your first 4 levels and are way behind on spells (even if not in spell slots) for the rest of your adventuring career. not to mention multiclass requires an investment in charisma, not something which many wizards will make a priority; realistically, there's a cost to your other attributes as a result.

edit: and let's not forget, the vast majority of a battlemaster's maneuvers tend to have an impact for 1 round or less. metamagic can be a real gamechanger in a much bigger way, because it modifies a spell that can be a gamechanger. there's a thread just today that basically boils down to "how do i capture a level 9 sorcerer that has subtle spell", and basically it all came down to "you need to keep her from acting at all", with the general recommendation being that you don't do it in combat at all, but by poisoning her food or something like that while she's unaware.

for a single feat, every other caster in the game can pretty much buy that level of immunity once per day. that's a pretty huge deal.

[Endarire]

Why must/should this character be a Drow? Why not another CHA or/and DEX bonus race?

[Madfellow]

It's a little broken. I think the patch needs to be done in such a way that it doesn't mess up a sorcerer using their capstone this way, but that's for the designers to decide. I don't feel like 4 sorcery points recovered on a short rest is an appropriate capstone considering a wizard can do that at level 8 (once per long rest) and doubles it at level 16 (which puts the wizard on par with 2 level 20 sorcerer short rests).


Nope, working as intended. Seriously, play a sorcerer, with your whole 4 spells known at 3rd level when metamagic kicks in. Ooh, you're such a powerhouse! Go you! No flexibility, no picking the right spell to hit the right save or get through the wrong resistance. So you can cast MM 2 extra times because you stopped at a farmhouse for a day? Big whoop.

It's not broken - it just looks that way on paper.


Or, he was talking about borrowing from the wild magic bloodline for this specific instance. Because it'd be flavorful, for people concerned about how 'broken' this is (hint: it isn't).

Okay, people SERIOUSLY need to go back and read my post on page 2, because apparently nobody has yet. It's not that sorcerers in general are broken, it's that they have a hole in their rules that allows them to generate unlimited spell slots and store them indefinitely. Unlimited spell slots are what breaks the game, because they absolutely destroy the daily resource allocation that is central to balancing full spellcasters in 5th. A sorcerer with infinite spell slots of levels 1 to 5 can cast as many spells as they want without needing to stop to conserve resources, the way ANY OTHER CASTER would have to.

You can even test this out. Run a one-shot with a party that includes a sorcerer abusing this bug. Do it with, say a level 10 party. For each of the sorcerer's spell slot boxes, just write a little infinity symbol and don't count how many spells the sorcerer casts during that one-shot. Just let them cast as many as they like. See what happens. I dare you.


Why must/should this character be a Drow? Why not another CHA or/and DEX bonus race?

Because the OP believes (erroneously) that because drow and other elves don't have to sleep that they don't have to take long rests, and can instead just take 4-8 short rests and get the same benefit. They can't.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I think the sorcerer only gets this ability when they get their capstone, which seems on par with things like infinite wild shape.



First of all, this isn't truly infinite casting. It's Nearly Infinite, but you never actually get infinite.

Second the specific rule says it creates spell slots. Not infinite spell slots, just one of a certain level. "You can transform unexpected sorcery points into one spell slot" is the text, and it works fine.

It's not infinite, but your interpretation is that there's no limit. This relies, as you freely admit, on several particular interpretations of the written rules. Changing your interpretation at any one of those points changes it so that this limitless casting loophole closes, and takes the base font of magic class feature out of conflict with a general rule.


It's a little broken. I think the patch needs to be done in such a way that it doesn't mess up a sorcerer using their capstone this way, but that's for the designers to decide. I don't feel like 4 sorcery points recovered on a short rest is an appropriate capstone considering a wizard can do that at level 8 (once per long rest) and doubles it at level 16 (which puts the wizard on par with 2 level 20 sorcerer short rests).

Limitless 5th level spells is undoubtedly better than many capstones. Heck, it even essentially grants you the druid capstone, as you can polymorph yourself as a bonus action an unlimited number of times per day.


If I was the DM I'd rule a fix like:

For each spell slot above the casters maximum, the chance of the spell triggering an effect from the wild magic table is doubled (1x2, 2x4, 3x8, etc). Any caster with more than the maximum slots suffers disadvantage on all ability checks and saving throws of the relevant casting ability score (int,wis,cha) until the slots are expended.

I might even throw in some problems maintaining sanity, magical mutations, and 3rd parties interested in investigating/purging the magical 'phenomenon'.

I doubt any of my players would even try this, but I'd either stop it by saying the max you can do is what you could do in a day, with the standard adventuring day guidelines (so, iirc, you can get 3 short rests for warlock spell slots to convert into sorcery points) or say that you cannot store capacity in excess of your sorcery point limit / spell slots (this also prevents sorcerers from casting 5th level spells two levels early, at level 7, where otherwise they can cast 4 spells using 5th-level slots per day with two sorcery points left over, or twin two 5th level spell slots with 6 points left over). I think the latter interpretation is less justified, so I'd probably just go with "the limit is what you can do in a standard day."

[XmonkTad]

Limitless 5th level spells is undoubtedly better than many capstones. Heck, it even essentially grants you the druid capstone, as you can polymorph yourself as a bonus action an unlimited number of times per day.

Of all the balance problems with 5th, capstones are the most glaring/egregious. 4 sorcery points vs. Unlimited wild shape? Breaking bounded accuracy and getting 24 strength vs. an extra 3rd level spell per short rest? The poor poor sorcerer. Unlimited 5th levels seem a bit too powerful, but unlimited 3rd or 4ths doesn't seem out of whack to me. Not at 20th anyway.

[goto124]

I'm wondering how you'll RP Java.

[Inevitability]

I'm wondering how you'll RP Java.

Half-mad, unpleasant to be around, and always on the hunt for caffeine-rich beverages?

[Gort]

Cool build. I like the character and the way you have used the rules.

But if you are going to bend the conventions of the game to this extent then why are you concerned about taking long rests or trances at all?

After all a "long rest restores any expended spell slots". There is nothing about losing any extra spell slots you may have. The limits on spell slots in the PHB chapter 10 are overridden by the sorcerors ability to create spell slots or that ability doesn't work at all. So why can't a single class sorceror simply create a large pool of extra spell slots over many days? Every day he can rest and recover the expended slots form the spell slots from the level he is choosing to convert into sorcery points for other level spell slots.

Likewise the Warlocks feature to recover expended spell slots is not tightly tied down to recovering Pact Magic spell slots. Most people infer it that way from the section it is in of course, but the language is "You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a short rest or long rest". Spell slots of a multiclass with the spellcasting class feature are still spell slots.

No doubt there will be official rulings on these eventually. I'll certainly be limiting this in any game I GM.

[Giant2005]

Cool build. I like the character and the way you have used the rules.

But if you are going to bend the conventions of the game to this extent then why are you concerned about taking long rests or trances at all?

After all a "long rest restores any expended spell slots". There is nothing about losing any extra spell slots you may have. The limits on spell slots in the PHB chapter 10 are overridden by the sorcerors ability to create spell slots or that ability doesn't work at all. So why can't a single class sorceror simply create a large pool of extra spell slots over many days? Every day he can rest and recover the expended slots form the spell slots from the level he is choosing to convert into sorcery points for other level spell slots.

Likewise the Warlocks feature to recover expended spell slots is not tightly tied down to recovering Pact Magic spell slots. Most people infer it that way from the section it is in of course, but the language is "You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a short rest or long rest". Spell slots of a multiclass with the spellcasting class feature are still spell slots.

No doubt there will be official rulings on these eventually. I'll certainly be limiting this in any game I GM.

The Errata did fix this somewhat - created spellslots not vanish at the end of a long rest.
Although that particular amendment doesn't do anything for a Warlock/Sorc combo that never takes a long rest, all it does is force a character that wants to exploit this into taking Warlock levels and doing this trick, rather than just doing it as a normal, long-resting, pure, Sorc.

[Chronos]

It's worth noting that the rule in the errata is exactly what the OP was assuming was in play, and why he came up with this concept. Indeed, when I saw that this thread had been bumped, I assumed it was by someone posting to point that out.

[XmonkTad]

Cool build. I like the character and the way you have used the rules.

But if you are going to bend the conventions of the game to this extent then why are you concerned about taking long rests or trances at all?

After all a "long rest restores any expended spell slots". There is nothing about losing any extra spell slots you may have. The limits on spell slots in the PHB chapter 10 are overridden by the sorcerors ability to create spell slots or that ability doesn't work at all. So why can't a single class sorceror simply create a large pool of extra spell slots over many days? Every day he can rest and recover the expended slots form the spell slots from the level he is choosing to convert into sorcery points for other level spell slots.

Likewise the Warlocks feature to recover expended spell slots is not tightly tied down to recovering Pact Magic spell slots. Most people infer it that way from the section it is in of course, but the language is "You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a short rest or long rest". Spell slots of a multiclass with the spellcasting class feature are still spell slots.

No doubt there will be official rulings on these eventually. I'll certainly be limiting this in any game I GM.

Oh hey, thanks! Yes you could do this as a single classed sorcerer, but there are two reasons not to:
1) Normal sorcerers don't get anything from short rests until level 20. In a TO setting, this is a moot point. I just like having the sorcerer capstone early.
2) If you assume one long rest plus 2 or 3 short rests, the math for a hybrid Java works out better than a single classed sorcerer. Not true at level 20.

Either way, you're right not to allow this in your game.


The Errata did fix this somewhat - created spellslots not vanish at the end of a long rest.
Although that particular amendment doesn't do anything for a Warlock/Sorc combo that never takes a long rest, all it does is force a character that wants to exploit this into taking Warlock levels and doing this trick, rather than just doing it as a normal, long-resting, pure, Sorc.

I'm not sure I get this. So created spell slots don't vanish with a long rest, how does that interfere with a single classed sorcerer's operation?


It's worth noting that the rule in the errata is exactly what the OP was assuming was in play, and why he came up with this concept. Indeed, when I saw that this thread had been bumped, I assumed it was by someone posting to point that out.

Yeah, this thread got necro-ed. If anyone has questions or comments about the build, feel free to PM me rather than bumping. To be perfectly honest, I still don't know what errata we're talking about. This build was half math/rules optimization and half (coffee) flavor.

[Madfellow]

I'm not sure I get this. So created spell slots don't vanish with a long rest, how does that interfere with a single classed sorcerer's operation?

Likely a typo on the poster's part. If you check the errata, it does specifically point out that created spell slots vanish after a long rest. The build doesn't work, and it never did.

[SharkForce]

Likely a typo on the poster's part. If you check the errata, it does specifically point out that created spell slots vanish after a long rest. The build doesn't work, and it never did.

the build is a character that never takes long rests (gets vastly more plausible if your DM uses the longer rest options in the DMG). that's why it is called the *sleepless* sorclock.

[Madfellow]

the build is a character that never takes long rests (gets vastly more plausible if your DM uses the longer rest options in the DMG). that's why it is called the *sleepless* sorclock.

A character that doesn't take long rests has to start making saving throws against exhaustion, as I have said multiple times before on this thread.

[SharkForce]

A character that doesn't take long rests has to start making saving throws against exhaustion, as I have said multiple times before on this thread.

i suspect the actual rule is regarding getting sufficient sleep, not taking a long rest. otherwise switching to needing a full week to take a long rest, as suggested in the DMG for those who want to stretch such things out, will likely kill most parties quite thoroughly in short order.

conveniently, this character only needs 4 hours of quasi-sleep-like-status, which is less than a long rest.

[numerek]

I would apply the exact same RAI reading of the RAW to old Java here. He could take 2-3 short rests in an adventuring day (not during downtime) to burn slots into SP's. During that time he will face around 8 encounters. He then needs to take a long rest before getting access to any more short rests.

For one anybody that knows anything about negotiation your 2-3 is 3 short rests.

For two that is not RAI, rules as intended is a player can take a short rest whenever he wants to, my warlock has short rested while some of my party was fighting in the next room(it was an easy fight), as many times as he wants to, could there be consequences of taking that short rest of course, our dm let some group we were chase after get away because we decided to take a short rest thinking they were trapped.

But this makes no sense so coffee drow is sitting there for at least 4 hours when everybody else is long resting but he can not short rest because through out the course of the day he has already short rested 3 times. What do you call it then restless sitting/laying. "A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking reading, and tending to wounds.", by that anytime a player does that he has finished a short rest.

[Raktus]

I don't know if this was still considered a valid build, as it was listed in a pinned threads build listing, but I just thought I'd add something that addressed the entire emphasis of the build. It's not my work or my words, so all credit goes to Koosemose over on reddit:


If you want to get into a really technical bit by bit reading of it, you can't build up an infinite number of spell slots.
Under Sorcery Points, "You regain all spent sorcerery points when you finish a long rest" (emphasis mine)
Under flexible casting, "You can transform unexpended sorcery points into one spell slot as a bonus action on your turn." (emphasis mine)
So, with an in detail reading, you can see that you don't spend sorcerery points to gain spell slots, you transform them, they are now changed into spell slots, not spent to buy spell slots, so you don't regain them, since you only regain spent ones, they're still there, they've just been polymorphed into spell slots.

[Zene]

So at 10 sorc/10 lock, each short rest I get 2 5th-level pact magic spell slots, which convert to 10 sorcery points, which convert to 1 5th-level spell.

So at 20th level, instead of a full spell pyramid with access to 6th - 9th level spells, or any of the higher-level class features or capstone, I can cast a 5th-level spell every round, and usually twin it?

It's a neat trick, but it doesn't seem broken to me at all. In fact, it seems like a ton of investment for a relatively small benefit. It's not great at lower levels, it's not great at 20 ... is it great somewhere in between?

Not trying to be harsh, just trying to figure out if I'm missing something. Seems like a lot of hubbub if there's not more to it than that.

[Raktus]

So at 10 sorc/10 lock, each short rest I get 2 5th-level pact magic spell slots, which convert to 10 sorcery points, which convert to 1 5th-level spell.

Well, what I just posted is that those points are transformed. You don't get more points until you expend that 5th level spell and thus actually spend the points.

[Sariel Vailo]

this is now happening as sariel dro urden sorc/lock
warlock of the undead and wild ****ing magic.

[Asmotherion]

In defance of this Necromancy Animated Thread, it was made before the erata that clerified that you loose extra spell slots created by flexible casting after a long rest. It was a creative RAW way to virtually stack as many spell slots as you needed, and save them up (as 1st level to be more efficient), to change them into Sorcery Points whenever they were needed. Currently, it technically can still be done, but transforming pact magic spell slots into SP, and then 5 1st level spell slots. However, you are never allowed to long rest wile doing so, as it would vanish your aquired power. Using only Short Rests is viable in downtime (to prepare for the next big adventure), as you won't need to regain HP.

[Sans.]

Say I was to play this build as Warlock 3/Sorcerer X. What order should I take the classes in? Also, what metamagics would be best?

[numerek]

So at 10 sorc/10 lock, each short rest I get 2 5th-level pact magic spell slots, which convert to 10 sorcery points, which convert to 1 5th-level spell.

So at 20th level, instead of a full spell pyramid with access to 6th - 9th level spells, or any of the higher-level class features or capstone, I can cast a 5th-level spell every round, and usually twin it?

It's a neat trick, but it doesn't seem broken to me at all. In fact, it seems like a ton of investment for a relatively small benefit. It's not great at lower levels, it's not great at 20 ... is it great somewhere in between?

Not trying to be harsh, just trying to figure out if I'm missing something. Seems like a lot of hubbub if there's not more to it than that.
every week a 3 warlock 9 sorcerer can make 96 5th level spell slots

At that level other full casters are limited to 2 fifth level spells and 1 sixth level spell with some possessing ways to get some slots back.

Great!


Say I was to play this build as Warlock 3/Sorcerer X. What order should I take the classes in? Also, what metamagics would be best?
it largely depends on what you want, to get good advice you must provide more info
but I will assume you want to perform the point of this build as fast as you can.
I would start sorcerer for constitution saving throw proficiency
level 1 warlock / level 2 sorcerer is the bare minimum to start doing this, you get one sorcery point per short rest so 2 short rests and you can get 1 first level spell slot.
but level 3 spells is where spells start to hit there stride so I would go to level 5 sorcerer from there
level 1 warlock / level 5 sorcerer

from there I would probably get warlock up to 3 so that you are getting 4 sorcery points per short rest instead of 1
then its sorcerer on til 17th.

as for meta magic again I'm not sure what your goals are none are necessary for the build, probably best would be twin because it lets you abuse concentration then I prefer quicken and subtle to break action economy and to counter some of the ways to shout down spell casters. I prefer draconic to wild if you want to go with other ones you will need to look at a guide for more detail.

for warlock choices if you get quicken you might as well pick up eldritch blast invocations, if you don't then it might not be worth it. if your dm allows undying warlock I've heard its good otherwise the fiend's level one adds some survival for free. Pact of chain is the only one that is going to provide you with much use since you can't get 5th level invocations.

Again don't know enough to recommend spells

Hope this helps.

[Dalebert]

This mechanic is IMHO the main reason to go sorlock. My drow sorlock (with exactly the same starting stats as OP's Java, unsurprisingly) is now 15/3 and I've been doing this for some time. I limit the extent though just so as not to piss of a DM even though it is absolutely legal.

If he doesn't need the benefits of a long rest at the end of the day, he takes 5 short rests (one 4 hour meditation and 4 one hour rests). That nets him 20 sorcery points. I typically make two 5th level slots and two 2nd level slots. The 2nd levels are just stored up to convert to sorcery points as needed since 2nd level is the most efficient storage value (150% cost). I do a lot of twinning of cantrips and such. I hardly ever cast a spell without applying some metamagic to it so he burns through the points but always has plenty.

You just have to convert points to slots, then warlock slots back to points, then rest, since you can never have more than your level total in points but no limit on slots.

It's a nice mechanic and arguably worth the dip but I don't think it's broken. It's a trade-off of a little more versatility in low level spells and sheer volume of spell slots over optimization and power since you take a significant hit in higher level spells and higher level class features, e.g. frickin' wings.

[8wGremlin]

With the new Sorcerers from Unearthed Arcana, would taking Favoured Soul, and picking up cure light wounds be worth it?

is there any reason why you needed to be Warlock (Archfey)

[8wGremlin]

From the new Warlock UA

Aspect of the Moon Prerequisite: The Archfey patron
You have gained the Maiden of the Moon’s favor. You no longer need to sleep and can’t be forced to sleep by any means. To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading and keeping watch.

I take it this opens up the races available for Sleepless Sorlock.
Plus allows 4 more short rests per long rest.

So with this what is a good race to pick, and what Sorcerer type would be good?

[XmonkTad]

From the new Warlock UA

Aspect of the Moon Prerequisite: The Archfey patron
You have gained the Maiden of the Moon’s favor. You no longer need to sleep and can’t be forced to sleep by any means. To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading and keeping watch.

I take it this opens up the races available for Sleepless Sorlock.
Plus allows 4 more short rests per long rest.


This is amazing and deserves an update to the OP, which I will get around to eventually. Worth noting: you have to do something to make sure break up your day with spellcasting or other activity to prevent accidentally taking an actual long rest.
Also, what happens if an Elf/Drow takes this? "You no longer need to sleep" strictly speaking doesn't apply to elves, as they never sleep, they trance.



So with this what is a good race to pick, and what Sorcerer type would be good?

I like the half-elf or variant human personally. This should come as no surprise, since this is an optimization thread. Half-elf shines because of it's +2 cha, and variant human because of the level 1 feat. Of course, any other race that has Cha bonuses is a good pick too.

[8wGremlin]

Other things to note is that if the Sorcerer Side is Favoured Soul (2.0) you get to pick Cleric spells.
Cleric spells like "Cure Light Wounds" which solves on of the issues with Sleepless Sorclock.

If you don't take the Archfae patron, but keep being a Drow, you can pick hexblade as the Warlock patron side.
This gives you martial weapons usable with CHA, medium armour, shields.

As well as a hex like Curse, that adds your proficiency bonus to ALL damage rolls, crits on 19+, and when the target dies you get temp HP = warlock level + cha mod, but you can only use that 1/short rest for 1 minute and it's only 1 target.

[Klorox]

Just tagging this for future reference. 😈

[Grondsmash]

Can you have more spell slots than your normal "slots per level" indicate? If so, how long do they last? The DM has to make a ruling on this, and the build doesn't work without it. There isn't really a "default assumption" available.

From the PHB
"You have 2 sorcery points, and you gain more as you reach higher levels, as shown in the Sorcery Points column of the Sorcerer table. You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level."
So there is no ruling needed, and there is a Default Rule, no assumption. No, you can't build up trillion spell slots, you get as many on the sheet. I don't see the wiggle room you claim, just an outright rule change. Personally, I wouldn't allow it, as allowing such abusive stuff just makes my job harder and is nothing about game balance.

Now to be clear, I have my own set of House Rules, so I am not saying you can't convince a DM to change them, just let him know what you plan on doing first. DM's tend to resent getting played. Although I am a pretty flexible DM and have made House Rules to create better balance in my game. For example, I have the universal ASIs based on Character, Off-hand attacks are part of the Attack Action, Shield Mastery gets 1d4 damage with their bash, you can take a feat a second time, as long as it is for a different ability/focus/effect. That being said, I would not allow it in my game.

[8wGremlin]

From the PHB
"You have 2 sorcery points, and you gain more as you reach higher levels, as shown in the Sorcery Points column of the Sorcerer table. You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level."
So there is no ruling needed, and there is a Default Rule, no assumption. No, you can't build up trillion spell slots.

It works like this:

1) convert sorcery points to a spell slot
2) convert a warlock spells into more sorcery points (to a maximum number of sorcery points as shown on the table for your level)
3) convert sorcery points to a spell slot
4) short rest
5) regain warlock spell slots
6) go to #2

You only reset your spell slots back to your normal allotted amount if you long rest.
Which with the Coffeelock you don't do, if you can help it.

The limit you see is the number of spell points you can hold at any one time, so some of the posts do have this wrong.
But there isn't a limit set on the number of spell slots you can create as a sorcerer. (given you have the sorcery points to create them)

I hope that clarifies it.