Tripping without a tripping weapon?

[Windrammer]

If I have improved trip, is there a compelling reason to be tripping with a weapon designed for it?

[eggynack]

I think the compelling reason is that you just can't trip with a weapon unless it's a tripping weapon. After that point, you have the obvious and many advantages of using a weapon instead of an unarmed attack.

[Windrammer]

I think the compelling reason is that you just can't trip with a weapon unless it's a tripping weapon. After that point, you have the obvious and many advantages of using a weapon instead of an unarmed attack.

Does a vampire's natural attack count as something that can allow you to trip without a tripping weapon without provoking an AoO?

I'm ok with provoking AoO's in this case anyways

[eggynack]

Does a vampire's natural attack count as something that can allow you to trip without a tripping weapon without provoking an AoO?
You can probably get the trip, because the rule specifies an unarmed melee attack rather than an unarmed strike, but there's no way you're not provoking without improved trip (allowing for the corner case possibility of a weird workaround).

[Windrammer]

You can probably get the trip, because the rule specifies an unarmed melee attack rather than an unarmed strike, but there's no way you're not provoking without improved trip (allowing for the corner case possibility of a weird workaround).

But I do have improved trip. I'm wondering how much I can do with that

[eggynack]

But I do have improved trip. I'm wondering how much I can do with that
You can do this thing with that, this thing being defined as tripping without an AoO. The thing is, you're not falling into the tripping weapon category, but into the kinda more intended unarmed melee attack category, and you should treat this attack as such in all respects related to tripping. If you give a character a manufactured melee weapon, then you can start worrying about tripping versus non-tripping weapons.

[Windrammer]

You can do this thing with that, this thing being defined as tripping without an AoO. The thing is, you're not falling into the tripping weapon category, but into the kinda more intended unarmed melee attack category, and you should treat this attack as such in all respects related to tripping. If you give a character a manufactured melee weapon, then you can start worrying about tripping versus non-tripping weapons.

Ok here's what I'm asking

I have improved trip, and intend to use it. But I don't intend to use a weapon designed for tripping. But I do very much intend to use a weapon.

Are you implying that I provoke an attack of opportunity for committing an unarmed attack without Imp. Unarmed Strike?

[eggynack]

I have improved trip, and intend to use it. But I don't intend to use a weapon designed for tripping. But I do very much intend to use a weapon.
What weapon are you using? If it's a weapon without the tripping property, then you just can't use it to trip things. If it's a weapon with the tripping property, you can.


Are you implying that I provoke an attack of opportunity for committing an unarmed attack without Imp. Unarmed Strike?
I think improved trip overrides that AoO in that case.

[goto124]

Caltrops...

marbles...

... banana peels...

[Crake]

You can probably get the trip, because the rule specifies an unarmed melee attack rather than an unarmed strike, but there's no way you're not provoking without improved trip (allowing for the corner case possibility of a weird workaround).

A natural weapon (of which a vampire's slam is) is considered an armed attack according to the natural weapons entry, so you couldn't trip with the attack unless you had the trip special ability, such as a wolf.

Note that an unarmed melee touch attack and an unarmed strike are not the same thing, so even with improved unarmed strike you would still provoke. Improved trip obviously removed this attack of opportunity.

As for benefits of trip weapons. If you have a reach weapon, that comes with the benefit of having reach on your trip, plus you can still trip when the enemy is adjacent by simply taking a hand off your weapon and using it to trip. Additionally, if you fail a trip with a weapon, you can drop the weapon to avoid being counter tripped, which is not an option with an unarmed strip attack.

[Molosse]

From the Paizo FAQ:

"Trip Weapons: If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?
No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don't have to use a weapon with the trip special feature--you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don't have the trip special feature.
Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.

On a related note, you don't have to use a weapon with the disarm special feature (a.k.a. a "disarm weapon") when making a disarm combat maneuver--you can use any weapon."

So to clarify, the only benefit of using a "Trip" weapon is that you may drop the weapon to avoid being knocked prone yourself. You can still apply enhancement bonus' and the like to your "Trip" attempt when you use a specific weapon to trip an enemy.
In addition tripping with a Reach weapon outside of the threatened area of your opponent will allow you to try a "Trip" attempt without Improved Trip.

[Windrammer]

From the Paizo FAQ:

"Trip Weapons: If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?
No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don't have to use a weapon with the trip special feature--you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don't have the trip special feature.
Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.

On a related note, you don't have to use a weapon with the disarm special feature (a.k.a. a "disarm weapon") when making a disarm combat maneuver--you can use any weapon."

So to clarify, the only benefit of using a "Trip" weapon is that you may drop the weapon to avoid being knocked prone yourself. You can still apply enhancement bonus' and the like to your "Trip" attempt when you use a specific weapon to trip an enemy.
In addition tripping with a Reach weapon outside of the threatened area of your opponent will allow you to try a "Trip" attempt without Improved Trip.

I KNEW THIS

It was in the back of my head, I knew there was a detail like this. Thank you so much, you're the only one to properly answer this haha

[eggynack]

I KNEW THIS

It was in the back of my head, I knew there was a detail like this. Thank you so much, you're the only one to properly answer this haha
That's pathfinder, and is thus likely inaccurate relative to your game. You need a tripping weapon if you're using a weapon to trip in 3.5.

[Molosse]

I KNEW THIS

It was in the back of my head, I knew there was a detail like this. Thank you so much, you're the only one to properly answer this haha

As mentioned this is a PF exclusive FAQ so depending on your game it could or could not be relevant, however that'd depend on the your GM mate.

Anyway hope it helps.

[Windrammer]

That's pathfinder, and is thus likely inaccurate relative to your game. You need a tripping weapon if you're using a weapon to trip in 3.5.

That would explain why I couldn't find the rule but I could have sworn it does exist in 3.5

[eggynack]

That would explain why I couldn't find the rule but I could have sworn it does exist in 3.5
Pretty sure it does not. I mean, just look at the structure of everything that talks about it. On the weapon end, "You can make trip attacks with the chain," and on the tripping end, "Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks."It all seems rather direct. On a more positive note though, guisarmes are sweet business.