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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other Humanity and Bonfires (Dark souls inspired death mechanics, looking for input)



curious-puzzle
2015-04-14, 11:44 PM
So for a game I'm hoping to run in the next while, I've devastated the homebrew setting I was making, and taken a LOT of inspiration from the "Souls" line of games by FROM software (Demons Souls, Dark Souls 1&2, Bloodborne - all awesome games I would highly recommend), specifically Dark Souls. One of the biggest parts of the game is the Curse your character is under - forever dying only to be reborn, over and over again until you've lost your sanity and identity, reduced to a murderous Hollow. Whenever you die, you are reborn at the last Bonfire you rested at; But so are the enemies you had previously slain. This is what I've slapped together so far!

I'm allowing races other than human, so can't just leave it as Humanity. This is meant to represent a character's identity and sanity. Without it, they become nothing but a Hollow, a murderous shell of themselves.

You start the game with a Vitae score equal to half (round down) of one attribute chosen at that time. This should be a defining aspect of your character (and yes, I'm meaning for players to choose their highest/most important stat)
Whenever you die, you lose one Vitae. As you lose Vitae, your body and mind degrade (I'm thinking at half your starting Vitae, healing magic begins to have a reduced effect, and you no longer can benefit from morale bonuses). At 0 Vitae, you've nearly gone Hollow. You gain the Undead template (probably use the Corpse template). If you die with 0 Vitae, you've gone Hollow and are permanently lost (the character is now a murdermonster under the DM's control).
You regain Vitae by defeating powerful monsters, discovering rare caches of crystallized Vitae...or defeating other Cursed individuals and consuming their Vitae
There is a danger to having too much Vitae, however. As your total goes past your starting Vitae score, your emotions start to burn more and more strongly, making you act erratically. Your body begins to twist and reform in response to the power. If your Vitae score ever doubles your starting total, you mutate into a horrific daemonic abomination, and control passes to the DM
I'm also planning on there being benefits to "burning" Vitae. The first is instant healing; by reducing your Vitae score by 1, you regain your maximum hp (standard action). You can also reduce your Vitae score by 1 to regain all the daily uses of a class ability. Spellcasting may also be refreshed by this as well



Places of sanctuary and respite, a Bonfire replenishes a cursed individual, and once attuned to, allows the cursed one to return to life here

To attune to a bonfire, you must rest at one for at least 15 minutes (unsure on the timing on this, should be more than just a quick sit-down, but I don't want to require 8 hours or anything like that)
Once you've attuned to a bonfire, when you die, your body and possessions will be reformed next to the bonfire 1 minute later. Class abilities and spell slots are NOT refreshed by this (this may change)
Bonfires are places of healing. If you rest for a night (8 hrs)within 30 feet of a Bonfire, you regain twice the amount of hp you normally would. I'm also considering just attuning to a Bonfire restoring some health, any thoughts? They may also exude a Sanctuary effect
To prevent characters from being too far separated if they go for quite a while without finding a new Bonfire, a member of a group of cursed individuals can become a Torchbearer. By sacrificing one point of Vitae (this point returns once they relinquish the role of Torchbearer, but cannot be restored by any means during that time) they take a piece of the Bonfire within themselves. If anyone but the Torchbearer dies, they instead are reborn next to the Torchbearer 1 minute later. If the Torchbearer dies, this reverts back to the Bonfire.



Those are the two main things I've got so far. Once the game starts, I may start adding additional abilities related to Vitae and Bonfires (possibly eventually warping between Bonfires for one). Any thoughts or opinions are appreciated, and anyone who's run or played in a Souls-themed game, I'd love to pick your brain. And if anyone's interested, here's a little blurb for the game and a draft of the intro doc for players:
The End has come to all of us, Gods and Mortals alike. The only choice, to be consumed by Flame or Darkness. Our only hope, to steal heroes from other worlds, other times, and pray one of them can succeed where all others have failed. Their fate becomes ours, and for that we should be damned even if they prevail. The Sun gutters, and the Moon burns. What will you do with the rest of your life?

You dream, and you dream of fire. An all-encompassing inferno, too bright to see anything but the flames, too hungry to do anything but feed the blaze. You burn, and are reborn in turn.

But the light dims, the flames contract. The darkness surrounds you, circling closer and closer as the fire flickers. Finally you are left with nothing but a small tongue of fire in the palm of your hand, no more than a candle flame, and the darkness presses down. It’s hungry. You can feel it watching you, waiting, all that is keeping it away is that small pinpoint of light.

You can hear a rhythmic grinding and ticking, the working of some vast machine in the distance that is slowing...to...a...h a l t

The flame goes out, and as the darkness consumes you, you snap awake.


This same dream has haunted you, driven you, these past few months. Perhaps you had it after finding a strange relic, symbols and carvings you didn’t recognize. Or perhaps after reading a scroll speaking of distant worlds, strangely new and crisp unlike the molding detritus it hid among. A madman mumbling riddles. Or you just had the terrible dream after laying down to sleep like any other night. But it has stayed with you since, whether the dream has awaited you every time you close your eyes, or if you’ve only had the dream once, but with such crystalline clarity that it branded itself into your memory.

The dream, and the Mark. A black circle, more like a deep bruise on the back of your hand than anything. Except that nothing you have tried can change or remove it...no wizardry, no healers, no prophets or priests. It doesn’t seem to do anything, other than fill you with a sense of foreboding. You’ve had the terrible feeling that even if you lost that hand entirely, the Mark would somehow still be there, a part of you.

You have found others with the Mark, others who have shared the eerie dream of darkness and flame. Perhaps you’ve become close companions, or knew them before. Or perhaps you are only thinly allied by the threads of the dream. Either way, you’ve finally come across a solid clue. An ancient temple, recently unearthed and the entrance discovered. No one has yet returned with treasure or knowledge, but all of your searching and hunting points to here.

There has to be something. There are scant few options left.

Alerad
2015-04-15, 07:15 AM
I'm a big fan of the Souls series myself and have been thinking about such designs. So far I like your idea very much. With the life and death cycles you can have some really deadly and fun encounters.

Does the Vitae depending on the max ability score represent some strength of the character? Like you can increase your stats and thus be able to hold more Vitae?

Here is one idea for a feat - Fire Keeper. Your maximum Vitae is increased without you turning into monster, and maybe you benefit from holding more Vitae.

Do characters need to sleep? Can they take a full rest at a place other than a bonfire?

curious-puzzle
2015-04-15, 08:09 AM
Thanks, Alerad.


Does the Vitae depending on the max ability score represent some strength of the character? Like you can increase your stats and thus be able to hold more Vitae?
I agree with that, just only ever the natural ability of the character (stat-increasing items don't increase your Vitae limit). The danger of too much Vitae won't be very well known, and should only be a danger if a character tries to hoard Vitae and/or starts actively hunting other Cursed adventurers (I plan on a LOT of deaths:smallbiggrin:)


Here is one idea for a feat - Fire Keeper. Your maximum Vitae is increased without you turning into monster, and maybe you benefit from holding more Vitae.
Good idea. This could be introduced once the players have learned more about the world...shall have to think of a way that doesn't tie them too tightly to a single Bonfire though.


Do characters need to sleep? Can they take a full rest at a place other than a bonfire?
Most definitely, there's just benefits to sleeping at a Bonfire instead.

Fizban
2015-04-15, 09:05 AM
Love me some dnd dark souls, basic mechanics seem fine. Spending a [humanity] for 1hp/level (a night's rest) is laughable though. Unless you're giving it out like candy an actual full heal is probably okay, especially if the bosses have appropriately 'souls game strength attacks and there's no analogue for an estus flask. For bonfires, while the torchbearer mechanic seems like a good patch, it's a patch that's only needed if the game is highly lethal (just because there's a respawn mechanic doesn't necessarily mean all the encounters should be overpowering), and bonfires aren't exactly rare. By the usual game conventions there should be at least one near every area worth noting, and it only makes sense for undead to move their operations if there's no bonfire nearby (though that brings up the problem that every bonfire should be fortified like the Bed of Resurrection it is). Torchbearers are much easier to cheese than arbitrary bonfires, even more so for NPCs that aren't limited to a 4 person party.

Here's the rules I put together after I decided using souls for currency was a great idea:

For hollowing: taint from Heroes of Horror, but you can't remove taint except with humanity and the usual expected source of taint damage is respawning at a bonfire (either depravity or both corruption and depravity depending on taste). The amount of damage vs the rarity of humanity will vary based on how lethal the group wants the game to be, and at only 1 point per death it could take quite a while to go full hollow, but the penalties for accruing taint are no joke so players will still want to avoid death if they can (much like how Dark Souls 2 has you slowly lose max hp). At 3 depravity per death an 18 wis character will hit mild/moderate/severe at 1/4/10 deaths, becoming a Tainted Raver after the 14th. And then if you want to put the squeeze on 'em you drop in a monster that deals taint damage in place of a darkwraith. Finding humanity should take more than just randomly murdering innocents or even cursed undead: you have to find those that have actually accrued some. An item/feat/spell or something could be concocted by an aspiring darkwraith to aid in the hunt. Aside from overpowering boss encounters and rare crystalized shards, exploring new areas full of creatures could be worth humanity (clearing out areas multiple times before fighting the boss in DS will get you some, and fine clothing has the same curse resistant effects of carrying humanity so even exploring friendly areas could be worth something).

Bonfires are placed by the DM with at least one near every area of note (if you know the path you can probably make it from one bonfire to the next within a day or two). Said "estus fonts" can only be seen by those with the curse of the undead, and since the curse is relatively new and/or rare only a scant few have been claimed and fortified (and since no one knows how they work doing so might cause them to dry up in time, it's all fiat after all). One could use divinations or develop a new spell/feat/item to aid in the finding of bonfires, up to you if you want non-cursed people to find also find a way. If you die, you and your gear dissipate and reform at the last bonfire you rested at, leaving any souls and humanity you had absorbed behind, which can then be absorbed as a standard action by anyone in the space where you died. Note that even those without the curse still leave their souls (and humanity if they're picked any up) behind, so we can stop using gold for everything.

Estus flasks probably shouldn't be craftable or purchaseable because bleh, but they can still be assigned a gold value as part of PC gear if you want (minor artifacts left over from when the curse of the undead ran rampant in ages past). The flask gathers 1 charge of estus each hour it remains close to a bonfire up to it's maximum capacity, using a charge restores X hp per hit die based on the strength, and rejoyce the banning of Healing Belts. The party can share one flask, but if you want to use more than one you might add a limitation: after drinking from one estus flask, any other pases your lips without effect until the next day.

Souls (or "essence," or something) are a reward allotted by the DM, generally when treasure wouldn't make sense. Characters that are properly dead should additionally leave behind souls equal to the value of their bonded items, but obviously this doesn't happen with a cursed undead for quite some time. Souls are used for crafting, which can be done in various ways. Using the DMG2 bonding rituals (and make some more because there's hardly any) anyone can upgrade their stuff with souls, but as a bonded item it's all non-transferable. People with crafting feats can use souls in place of gold as well: magic items made with cash show it in their materials and re-construction, while those reinforced with souls usually don't look any different at all. People with crafting skills can make magic items using souls without a ritual or feat by acquiring rare components (titanite, etc, not usually bought or sold). Finally, add a feat for consuming items and converting them into half that many souls. People who use bonding rituals can also use this feat to reclaim half the power they previously invested if needed.

A person who's absorbed souls won't lose them until dead, but can transfer them to another within reach as a standard action and knows precisely how much they have in comparison to an imbued item, allowing measured trades. Since they're doled out at the DM's whim, characters in-universe can note trends (large beasts and people with bonded items tend to be good sources), but attempts to literally farm souls are met with failure and people simply use what they find. The fact that you can securely store and move this raw power anyone can use makes it the natural currency of adventurers. Gold can move large numbers of normal people, and larger cities have enough people that you can usually find someone selling what you want for gold, but when it comes to individuals who deal in concentrated power outside of cities gold is only worth half the souls if they'll even take it. I like this 'Souls game approach because unlike all the other suggested adventurer currencies, this actually has intrinsic worth so it makes sense. Astral diamonds are just hard to make change for, residium is still requires whatever normal crafting rules were in 4e, and the wish economy is amusing but dumb. Souls on the other hand are literally a trade good: if someone trades you food you can eat it, and if someone trades you souls you can convert them to magic items (power).

Gotta sleep, will try and check back eventually.

curious-puzzle
2015-04-15, 10:07 AM
Copious info dump of awesome

You're right on the healing amount, a full heal is appropriate given that I want humanity/vitae to be quite valuable.

I didn't even think of the taint rules, that's an awesome idea, I will pillage my book after work.

I'm planning on bonfires being relatively rare places of safety is why I was considering the torchbearer idea (and yes, this is shaping up to be a pretty lethal game). I quite like your mechanics for souls, but I'm just keeping it pretty simple with souls as xp for now. The setting I'm making for this isn't quite as far gone as Lordran, but it's not too far behind, so I'll be making most treasure equipment and consumables.

Thank you very much!

Picanet
2015-04-15, 01:29 PM
As a beta tester for this setting... my answer to all this is Meep!

Fizban
2015-04-16, 02:57 AM
Thank you very much!
You're welcome, glad you liked it :smallsmile:

Edit: also, here's a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?408942-A-New-Anti-Magic-Mart-Solution&p=19119001) to Seerow's anti-magic-mart thread I just posted in, and Grod's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357810-Chopping-Down-the-Christmas-Tree-Low-Magic-Item-Rules&) christmas tree chopping from last year as well. If you aren't using soul currency but want your 'souls setting to be similarly magic item lite, they might be useful. (You may find weapons, armor, consumables, and rings, but that's about it for 'souls equipement, not so for dnd's great piles of gadgets and required haberdashery.)

curious-puzzle
2015-04-18, 03:23 PM
Okay, updated the burning of a vitae to cause you to fully heal. Still reading through the taint rules, I'll most likely use them for having too much or too low a Vitae score (but that'll be behind my screen, the player will just know once it's changed their character).

I want some spellcasting to be able to either be recharged or supercharged, either regaining spells, or acting as an impromptu metamagic application. But I'm leery of the balance of it. Vitae/Humanity will be rare and precious, so it needs to be a pretty noticeable benefit to burning it, but I also don't want it to be too powerful. Would a Vitae restoring spells/spell slots like a pearl of power or Memento Magica item (level depending on the character's HD) be reasonable?

And in regards to metamagic, allowing the character to apply a metamagic feat that they don' possess without level adjustment for burning a vitae was what I was thinking. Which should be on the list? I was thinking Widen/Maximize/Extend/Twin/Chain, certainly not things like Persist. Any thoughts / opinions?