Magic Initiate and casters

[Daremonai]

So, we know that Magic Initiate lets non-casters use the 1st-level spell once per long rest. Additionally, casters gain it as a known spell for use with normal slots. But do casters gain the "virtual spell slot" as well?
i.e. could a wizard with Magic Initiate cast his/her full complement of spells and then the feat spell once on top of that?

[MrStabby]

Yeah, casters know it but it doesn't remove the restriction on casting it only once per long rest. Maybe in a reprint it could get included as an errata though.

[Gritmonger]

Currently I rule it as a separate spell slot for use only with that spell - it can't be converted to points, it can't be affected with metamagic - it's expressly for use with that one first-level spell, once per long rest.

[SharkForce]

Yeah, casters know it but it doesn't remove the restriction on casting it only once per long rest. Maybe in a reprint it could get included as an errata though.

it should get at least some errata. as written, a cleric who takes magic initiate cleric (presumably mainly with the intent of expanding their pool of cantrips) loses the ability to cast a spell that is on their spell list more than once as a result of taking the feat :P

[MrStabby]

it should get at least some errata. as written, a cleric who takes magic initiate cleric (presumably mainly with the intent of expanding their pool of cantrips) loses the ability to cast a spell that is on their spell list more than once as a result of taking the feat :P

Yeah, I wont argue with that! I think I have always played it as giving a spell slot and knowledge of a spell but i always run it past the DM if I am a player.

[MadGrady]

I rule it like a spell-like ability from older editions - you can cast it once per long rest. I hadn't even considered the possibility of just adding it to my spells known for use in regular spell slots.

Hmmmmm

[Easy_Lee]

Treating it as a spell known could cause a problem if, say, an evoker wizard picks up Hex, casts it out of a 5th level slot, and uses it to greatly increase his magic missile damage output all day.

[SharkForce]

Treating it as a spell known could cause a problem if, say, an evoker wizard picks up Hex, casts it out of a 5th level slot, and uses it to greatly increase his magic missile damage output all day.

not like he can't just grab a single level of warlock and do the same thing anyways.

[Easy_Lee]

not like he can't just grab a single level of warlock and do the same thing anyways.

Well, a single level of warlock limits the duration of Hex significantly, delays his progression, and ensures that he can only cast the spell once (though it's per short rest). And there could be some even more potentially busted level 1 spells that we just haven't thought of yet (something a sorcerer might cast out of a higher slot or metamagic, for instance).

[Giant2005]

Well, a single level of warlock limits the duration of Hex significantly, delays his progression, and ensures that he can only cast the spell once (though it's per short rest)
That Evoker can use his Wizard spell slots to cast any of his Warlock spells - he doesn't need to use his Pact Magic Spell Slot unless he wants to.

[Easy_Lee]

That Evoker can use his Wizard spell slots to cast any of his Warlock spells - he doesn't need to use his Pact Magic Spell Slot unless he wants to.

Does that work? I'm a bit rusty on cross-class spell slot usage.

[Giant2005]

Does that work? I'm a bit rusty on cross-class spell slot usage.

"If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know."

[Easy_Lee]

"If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know."

Got it. That gives me some ideas.

[Slipperychicken]

I recently had an idea, inspired by that fey knight thread. What if a war cleric (whichever one gets limited extra attacks per day), took magic initiate to pick Shillelagh off the Druid list (so he could cast it off wisdom), then used it with a quarterstaff, shield, and Polearm Master? By level 5, such a Cleric could get respectable attacks per round (2-3), be tanky as Clerics normally are, be pretty much SAD (using his casting stat for both tohit and damage), and still get his full casting progression on top of that. If point buy was allowed, he could mitigate the need for ASIs by putting everything into wisdom and con.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot that the war priest ability takes a bonus action. Still, 2 wisdom-based attacks per round doesn't seem to shabby for a fulllcaster,

[Theodoxus]

I'd thought of that Slipperychicken. The primary limiting factor is lack of useful heavy armor, unless you go dwarf - totally doable with hill dwarf, and the extra hit points don't suck. But it seems using a simple weapon and playing loosy-goosy with the armor cheapens the War domain.

I'd almost rather grab 6 levels of Paladin for the 3 casting levels, extra paladin spells, and the boons, including Aura of Protection (which doesn't suck) - more MAD, but if you're saving points from Str and Dex by using Wis to attack with shillelagh, you can afford to put a few points into Cha for the MC requirement (and more Cha to fuel Aura of Protection...)

[Person_Man]

I'm not the best RAW guy around, but I think its meant to be treated as a separate ability that does not interact with your normal spell list. Multi-classing is a bigger investment of resources then a Feat, and the rules for each are very different.

[Slipperychicken]

I'd thought of that Slipperychicken. The primary limiting factor is lack of useful heavy armor, unless you go dwarf - totally doable with hill dwarf, and the extra hit points don't suck. But it seems using a simple weapon and playing loosy-goosy with the armor cheapens the War domain.


The cleric would still get heavy armor proficiency, assuming he took the right domain. Not meeting the strength requirement merely subtracts 10 from his move speed.

My idea was basically to make a Cleric which is able to reliably fill the fighter's role (to some extent) while still getting full-casting and not investing in strength or dex.

[SharkForce]

I'm not the best RAW guy around, but I think its meant to be treated as a separate ability that does not interact with your normal spell list. Multi-classing is a bigger investment of resources then a Feat, and the rules for each are very different.

sure, but you also gain more with the multiclass. light armour, a short rest recharging spell slot, more HP, more spells known, your patron, don't have to wait until you can get a feat, and possibly something else that i'm forgetting.

with magic initiate, all you're getting is some cantrips and a single spell known. lower cost, lower reward.

[chando]

And whats wrong with that? Said wizard used a feat and a high level spell slot , and his concentrarion, for the ability to add 1d6 points of damage to its spells attacks for 8h (until he fails a concentration check). I think thats a dumb wizard, as i'm sure there must be better uses for a 5th level spell slot. And if it fits his character concept a his willing to pay for a feat and all the extra costs, let him have it a little bit of extra damage. :)

[Easy_Lee]

And whats wrong with that? Said wizard used a feat and a high level spell slot , and his concentrarion, for the ability to add 1d6 points of damage to its spells attacks for 8h (until he fails a concentration check). I think thats a dumb wizard, as i'm sure there must be better uses for a 5th level spell slot. And if it fits his character concept a his willing to pay for a feat and all the extra costs, let him have it a little bit of extra damage. :)

Well, it's 1d6 per attack roll. That's a lot on magic missile.

[Spojaz]

Don't forget the cantrips though. Variant level 1 human wizard with magic initiate has almost double the cast-able cantrips (2 level 1 spell slots means you mostly use cantrips at first level anyway) of a different build. I'm even thinking of it instead of level 8 ability score increase. just for the ability to choose between more than 4 cantrips. Those things are useful.

[SharkForce]

Well, it's 1d6 per attack roll. That's a lot on magic missile.

if by "a lot" you mean "3", then i suppose so (well, technically magic missile doesn't have *any* attack roll, which is pretty much its main claim to fame, so it might actually not work; you might need to use scorching ray... which a warlock can do anyways).

of course, they could use a higher level slot, but then they're burning higher level slots on magic missile, which really isn't a particularly great use of said higher level spell slot most of the time.

i suppose it certainly does make them rather stronger against creatures which are extremely hard to hit but have no defence against force and necrotic damage and only have a small amount of hit points, but honestly, i don't see that being a particularly awe-inspiring niche.

[Easy_Lee]

if by "a lot" you mean "3", then i suppose so (well, technically magic missile doesn't have *any* attack roll, which is pretty much its main claim to fame, so it might actually not work; you might need to use scorching ray... which a warlock can do anyways).

of course, they could use a higher level slot, but then they're burning higher level slots on magic missile, which really isn't a particularly great use of said higher level spell slot most of the time.

i suppose it certainly does make them rather stronger against creatures which are extremely hard to hit but have no defence against force and necrotic damage and only have a small amount of hit points, but honestly, i don't see that being a particularly awe-inspiring niche.

On an evoker wizard at INT cap, each missile normally does 1d4 + 1 + 5 damage, or 7 to 10. Against a hexed target, this becomes 8 to 16. That's a 40% increase in damage output. Considering that the Wizard can cast this spell from any slot, fires three missiles out of a level 1 slot, and fires an additional missile per level of higher slot used, I think that's considerable. 24 to 48 guaranteed damage from a 1st level spell slot is significant damage.

[MrStabby]

On an evoker wizard at INT cap, each missile normally does 1d4 + 1 + 5 damage, or 7 to 10. Against a hexed target, this becomes 8 to 16. That's a 40% increase in damage output. Considering that the Wizard can cast this spell from any slot, fires three missiles out of a level 1 slot, and fires an additional missile per level of higher slot used, I think that's considerable. 24 to 48 guaranteed damage from a 1st level spell slot is significant damage.

compare this to an average from an agonizing blast eldritch blast on 3 missiles. 3d10 + 3d6 +15 -> average 16.5 + 10.5 + 15 = 42 on average. If you hit on average 2/3rds of the time this is 28 damage of average. Scaling up the damage a bit to account for the extra spell slots consumed seems reasonable, especially given the investment of feats and the specific specialisms needed for this.

[SharkForce]

On an evoker wizard at INT cap, each missile normally does 1d4 + 1 + 5 damage, or 7 to 10. Against a hexed target, this becomes 8 to 16. That's a 40% increase in damage output. Considering that the Wizard can cast this spell from any slot, fires three missiles out of a level 1 slot, and fires an additional missile per level of higher slot used, I think that's considerable. 24 to 48 guaranteed damage from a 1st level spell slot is significant damage.

it's better than magic missile without hex, sure. but each one you cast is eating into your other options, like shield and mirror image, which you kinda rely on to keep you alive.

[Dark Tira]

Just need to point out that Hex doesn't work with magic missile because magic missiles aren't attacks.

[Vortenger]

So Scorching Ray, then. Melf's Minute Meteors gains similarly.

[chando]

If I'm not mistaken (away from books), scorchoring ray (witch can be used by warlocks just as well) creates 3 rays that so 2d6 dmg as a 2nd level spell, one more ray/level. So as 9th level, thats 10 rays doing 2d6 each. With hex, each ray does 2d6 instead, for a 10.5 average dmg on a hit. So 105 average vs 70 average damage assuming all attacks hit. Assuming that you hit half the time, thats a 52.5 DPR (damage per round). If you did the regular 70 average with the same to hit chance but with invisibility instead for advantage on all attack rolls, you would have a 52.5 DPR. Yes, its actually the same DPR. (Without acconting to critical hits, that would increase both averages but more so the advantage one dur to increased crit chance)

Assuming 2/3 hits, the hex would pull ahead with 70 DPR vs 62.22 DPR in the spell cast with advantage. Thats all ofcourse assuming a single target, hex previously cast as you cannot change targets mid action i belive.
Thats in the round you use your 9th level spell, that you have one and only one each day. Yea its a increase in damage. Yes, its a nice spell. Yes its a good combo with spell that have lots of attacks. So? Players are using a feat, another spell slot, and more importantly their concentration, for a bit of extra damage. Don't see what the big whoop about it.
Caster already have so little feats that actually benefit them, if they wanna spend one of their feats for a modicum amount of extra damage, let them. :)