have 5th ed bards changed your games?

[Camman1984]

Its seems to me that bards are now masters of all trades, whenever someone asks "what is the best class to ...." 9 times out of 10 the answer is bard, or bard comes right up there. I know the same situation used to exist for druids but my last party had 3 bards out of a group of 5 players, including one guy who liked to use swift quiver while riding a paladin mount just to show up the ranger. How do others feel?

[MrStabby]

Yeah, bards are good. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are masters of everything but if they want to be they can be only a little behind what any of the other classes want to do whilst also doing a lot of other things.

[Snorunt30]

Its seems to me that bards are now masters of all trades, whenever someone asks "what is the best class to ...." 9 times out of 10 the answer is bard, or bard comes right up there. I know the same situation used to exist for druids but my last party had 3 bards out of a group of 5 players, including one guy who liked to use swift quiver while riding a paladin mount just to show up the ranger. How do others feel?

This is coming from someone who is currently playing one, so I may be biased in the matter, but they are really only great at covering stuff nobody else is covering. In my party at least, everyone in the party assumed I'd be useless because they only excel at being generalists (until some hilarious, and creative, uses of my expertise in performance, and deception saved the party from a room full of goblins, bugbears, and some others), due to how they were perceived in the past. They may come across as being great at everything because your party wasn't diversified enough to have the bards be stepping on the toes of anyone else that specializes in a specific area. After all, bards are the Jack of all trades, Master of none... not Master of all trades, second to none.

People may make them sound like they are able to master everything, but in reality there is a lot they can't do, and if they can come one thing that means they can't cover others. Due to how few spells they grab from other lists, they really can't match any class within their own spell lists. Take the one riding the mount while using swift quiver, sure he can do those two things now, but now he can't use the class feature for many more levels to get other spells that he could use to shore up the weaknesses of the party (or whatever the party needs. Party low on people capable of healing? Take the aura of vitality and prayer of healing as spells, now your ability to be a jack of all trades filled a hole the party had, but it also means now you can't help kill the monsters faster by taking attack spells like tidal wave, or something of the sort). Then there the actual Jack of all trades feature, where the only time it is useful (for skills) is when nobody is trained in a specific skill, because /some/ proficiency is better than /no/ proficiency to tack on.

Anyway, just my two cents. (And hope it helps.)

[MadBear]

In my group the bard is really well at covering most of the Face skills in the game. In combat the bard helps make others shine, and contributes through throwing fireballs. However, the bard is far from the most skilled combatant (in fact he's the weakest at fighting in the group).

Like others have said, the bard is always a great 4th character that can fill in roles that others are missing, but I've never seen another player feel overshadowed by the bard.

[AvatarVecna]

Currently playing a bard in my main IRL game, and here's my take: a bard is not the best at everything, they're potentially the best at anything, or the second (or third) best at everything.

A lore bard with good illusion spells can out-rogue the rogue...but their healing and buffing will fall on the wayside, and their damage will never be comparable.

A valor bard taking paladin or ranger spells can outdo them at their own specialty...but sacrifices their skills and non-combat spells.

A bard is at their best when they're combining a few different things together to accomplish the impossible. To offer an example...

Recently, I was finally able to rejoin my usual gaming group, where I play a Tiefling Bard styled after Indiana Jones. Our fairly large party (7 PCs and 2 NPCs) was ambushed by 10 Trogladytes; in the surprise round, our warlock and rogue were knocked out, and the barbarian was killed. As our life cleric rushed to heal our fallen friends, my bard used Bardic Inspiration on himself, spent an inspiration pointn and made an untrained Deception check (1d20+1d6+5). With a total resultof 27, i managed to convince most of the trogs that I was the physical avatar of their deity. Since said deity had sent them to kill us, this turned out to be very confusing for the low Int creatures and distracted them long enough for the cleric and paladin to heal the rogue and warlock, and for the monk, the paladin, and the rogue to tear their way through enough trogs to turn the odds inout favor. When one of them finally attacked me, I cast Thaumaturgy to turn my eyes pitch black and began screaming in Infernal. The cleric added her assistance by also casting Thaumaturgy to make the floor start shaking. By the time it was my turn again,there were only 3 left...at which point my sleep spell took them down easily.

To be clear: the cleric spent 3 spells,the paladin spent 2, the warlock spent 2, and I spent 1 (at least, that's all without including cantrips). I combined inspiration, bardic inspiration, two cantrips, and a skill check, and got something equivalent to mass confusion. At 2nd level. And it was only possible because I had refused to build a specialist with a generalist class.

Not to say that bards aren't awesome, because they are. But in 5e, everything is awesome (with the debatable exception of the ranger).

[jaydubs]

Its seems to me that bards are now masters of all trades, whenever someone asks "what is the best class to ...." 9 times out of 10 the answer is bard, or bard comes right up there.

You're half right. If you look at the situation as "bards vs other classes," bards potentially being good at everything would be a major problem. But the things is, no one gets to play "bards." A single player can only play "a particular bard."

In 5e, the bard is a great generalist (skills and magic), who can also be very good at 1 or 2 other things, if they invest resources into it. Since those 1 or 2 things are determined by college choice, magical secret choice, and feat choice, it's a very broad list. So when someone asks the question - what would make a good X? A good Y? A good Z? So on and so forth. The bard ends up on a lot more lists than most other classes. But since college/magical secrets/feats are limited on a single character, a bard cannot be great at X, Y, and Z simultaneously. So yes, bards can be very competitive at (almost) all trades. But any single bard can't be competitive at all of them at once. And the classes that can only be great at X, Y, or Z, tend to edge out the bard at that particular task.

For instance, what is the best tanky melee character? No one is going to say bard. What is the best arcane caster? Again, not the bard. What is the best divine caster? Not the bard. What is the best dedicated skill-monkey? Rogue. But for broader concepts (especially those that involve magic), you basically fall right into the bard's niche of generalist. What is the best class if I want to cast lots of spells, be good at skills, and also fight? Bard. Or "I don't mind being second best at X, but I want the character to be really versatile." Bard.

Does that make sense?


my bard used Bardic Inspiration on himself

Not to nitpick, but I don't think bards can inspire themselves. And if I'm wrong about that, I'd find it useful information.

Under the bardic inspiration entry, it specifies "one creature other than yourself."

[Ardantis]

I always used to play Bards, they were my favorite, but now that the other classes seem to be working as well as they do (especially in terms of being more multifaceted and able to do things outside their specialty) I'm trying a rogue.

Bards seem to still do what they've always done, except now all other classes are more evenly dealt with (due to bounded accuracy.) I'm just glad they get credit for their awesome ability to fill others' shoes and occasionally bring the party together for some awesome roleplay.

[MadBear]

Currently playing a bard in my main IRL game, and here's my take: a bard is not the best at everything, they're potentially the best at anything, or the second (or third) best at everything.

A lore bard with good illusion spells can out-rogue the rogue...but their healing and buffing will fall on the wayside, and their damage will never be comparable.

A valor bard taking paladin or ranger spells can outdo them at their own specialty...but sacrifices their skills and non-combat spells.

A bard is at their best when they're combining a few different things together to accomplish the impossible. To offer an example...

Recently, I was finally able to rejoin my usual gaming group, where I play a Tiefling Bard styled after Indiana Jones. Our fairly large party (7 PCs and 2 NPCs) was ambushed by 10 Trogladytes; in the surprise round, our warlock and rogue were knocked out, and the barbarian was killed. As our life cleric rushed to heal our fallen friends, my bard used Bardic Inspiration on himself, spent an inspiration pointn and made an untrained Deception check (1d20+1d6+5). With a total resultof 27, i managed to convince most of the trogs that I was the physical avatar of their deity. Since said deity had sent them to kill us, this turned out to be very confusing for the low Int creatures and distracted them long enough for the cleric and paladin to heal the rogue and warlock, and for the monk, the paladin, and the rogue to tear their way through enough trogs to turn the odds inout favor. When one of them finally attacked me, I cast Thaumaturgy to turn my eyes pitch black and began screaming in Infernal. The cleric added her assistance by also casting Thaumaturgy to make the floor start shaking. By the time it was my turn again,there were only 3 left...at which point my sleep spell took them down easily.

To be clear: the cleric spent 3 spells,the paladin spent 2, the warlock spent 2, and I spent 1 (at least, that's all without including cantrips). I combined inspiration, bardic inspiration, two cantrips, and a skill check, and got something equivalent to mass confusion. At 2nd level. And it was only possible because I had refused to build a specialist with a generalist class.

Not to say that bards aren't awesome, because they are. But in 5e, everything is awesome (with the debatable exception of the ranger).

That story sounds fun, but a few things that I'm also inclined to nitpick (at least so far as, I can see extreme table variance taking place).

At my table a deception roll of 27 to convince the trogs that you were a avatar, would have probably resulted in them believing that you believed that, but would not have convinced them. That sounds like something that should be impossible, or nearly impossible. With that said, it sounds like it was a fun encounter.

Other then that, maybe I'm misinterpreting what you wrote (as I'm prone to do), but I've never seen a bard that can out rogue a rogue, out paladin a paladin, or out ranger a ranger at their specialty, unless we're talking about their specialty being a skill.

[AvatarVecna]

@jaydubs

Well, that's good to know. I'llbe sure to bring that up with the DM since it slipped my mind.

@MadBear

That's how the DM ruled it, actually, hence why they were confused for several seconds rather than bowing in awe and fear. It helped that they were pretty stupid, too.

Edit:

And yeah, it was really fun. Everything went well in the end: the trogs were tricked, weall had moments of awesome, and the Leeroy Jenkins style Barbarian who had been the bane of our party's survival died in the surprise round. Even better, his new character will be a gnome, which should be very fun indeed.

[MrStabby]

One thing that bards are genuinely good at: Talking.

Lots of skills, proficiency, expertise and primary stat being charisma all helps here.

[Ashrym]

Its seems to me that bards are now masters of all trades, whenever someone asks "what is the best class to ...." 9 times out of 10 the answer is bard, or bard comes right up there. I know the same situation used to exist for druids but my last party had 3 bards out of a group of 5 players, including one guy who liked to use swift quiver while riding a paladin mount just to show up the ranger. How do others feel?

I fell like I need more ranger levels to show up the ranger and like I would have been better off with other spells learn.

I agree with several comments about bards not being masters of everything. There's too much investment in such focus and that leaves more of a highly customizable class instead of the master of all trades.


One thing that bards are genuinely good at: Talking.

Lots of skills, proficiency, expertise and primary stat being charisma all helps here.

That still gets to opportunity costs and assumptions. Proficiency doesn't make them any better than any other class that has proficiency and CHA as an important stat. Expertise is not a given and available to rogue as well.

You will find a sorcer with proficiency has a better chance than a halberd using valor bard, for example. You will also find some social interaction is handled via WIS skills.

In building a social skilled party face we can easily do so on a bard and still get back to those opportunity costs. No expertise in a different skill as the most obvious example.

[Safety Sword]

It's changed my game a lot! Instead of my players singing out "+1 for Bard" when they attack they now say "+1d6 for Bard"

By the way, Battlemaster Fighters backed up by Bards and Barbarians... wow.. that's a lot of advantage and extra dice.