So I've Bitten Off More Than I Can Chew... (Zelda Campaign)

[LoyalPaladin]

Hello Playgrounders,
Inspired by a recent thread, I brought the prospect of a Zelda game up with one of the tables I DM for and they were immediately taken with the idea. While fairly well versed in the Zeldaverse, I feel I've bitten off more than I can chew. This will be a 1-30 campaign in a completely home brew world with completely home brewed races. But this isn't where I am stumbling. Where I am stumbling is creating Link in his many incarnations.

I was going to write a long winded thing about the campaign as a whole (I did actually then erased it...), but I think it's better that I just get to the point. I need to create all eleven Links. It doesn't need to be too complicated, the ground rules we all set for this campaign forces you to gestalt a PC class and an NPC class, Link however will be a special occasion in that he will be gestalted with Favored Soul.

In short, if you were making a 20 ______ / 20 Favored Soul for each Link, what would you do?

Skyward Sword: Knight
Minish Cap:
Four Swords:
Ocarina of Time & Majora's Mask:
A Link to the Past, Oracle of Ages/Seasons, Links Awakening:
A Link Between Worlds:
The Legend of Zelda & The Adventure of Link:
Twilight Princess: Warblade
Four Swords Adventure:
Windwaker & Phantom Hourglass:
Spirit Tracks:

I appreciate your help and I hope that together we can create eleven Link NPCs that play and feel unique when fighting along side my players. I'd like to keep most of the DM mumbo-jumbo down, but I'm not opposed to giving him Preform (Ocarina) as a class skill if need be.

[Powerdork]

It'd actually be Perform (wind). And yes, I am very fun at parties.

[LoyalPaladin]

It'd actually be Perform (wind). And yes, I am very fun at parties.
I bet you're a riot. I can definitely tell you've got a couple of ranks in Perform (Stand Up Comedy)...

[danzibr]

Huh. I love this idea.

I'd say the original should be straight Fighter with a bag of tricks, and the second should be some sword dude with magic, maybe Duskblade.

You do want pure classes right?

[LoyalPaladin]

Huh. I love this idea.
My players went bats over it. So I'll run with it haha.


I'd say the original should be straight Fighter with a bag of tricks, and the second should be some sword dude with magic, maybe Duskblade.
"The Original" as in "The Legend of Zelda"? I'm assuming that means the second would be "A Link to the Past"?


You do want pure classes right?
Yes! Once we get to post 20 levels I'll probably go 10 Factotum / 10 Paladin of Freedom.

[Troacctid]

Don't forget about Eternal Blade. It comes with its own fairy sidekick to help you with Z-targeting or whatever.

Most of Link's abilities come from magic items rather than class levels, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just don't overcomplicate things. He's probably a simple Fighter in the majority of his incarnations.

[Seclora]

Most of them are fighters, sadly. OoT, MM, and WW could probably be argued for Bard. Most of what makes Link powerful is items, not inherent magical ability, so find a way to get him Use Magic Device early and reliable (I like the idea of giving him a dorky green hood of the Magic Savant personally, lets him take 10 and gives him a +4 to the skill). Dodge for those games with targeting abilities, Whirlwind attack for nearly all of them, and Bow and Boomerang proficiency is a must.


The Four Sword should have a Body Outside Body(Wu Jen 7) spell built into it at Caster level 15. Consider making the Minish accordingly.

Edit: Factotum is a great idea also. Let's him sneak attack powerful enemies in the vulnerable spots, like anywhere that isn't a massive eyeball.

[Yael]

Edit: Factotum is a great idea also. Let's him sneak attack powerful enemies in the vulnerable spots, like anywhere that isn't a massive eyeball.

Gee, I wonder if that's its weak point.

[Karl Aegis]

Daaaaang. You gonna kill all the Links? Pretty ambitious campaign goal.

[LoyalPaladin]

Don't forget about Eternal Blade. It comes with its own fairy sidekick to help you with Z-targeting or whatever.

Most of Link's abilities come from magic items rather than class levels, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
That... is an awesome class...

That is true. I just want every bit of him to feel different. Since they are all technically different people. Even if it is minor abilities.


Most of them are fighters, sadly. OoT, MM, and WW could probably be argued for Bard.

The Four Sword should have a Body Outside Body(Wu Jen 7) spell built into it at Caster level 15. Consider making the Minish accordingly.

I did think about Bard for OoT and MM. I was hoping Stormwrack had goodies for WW, but I was wrong.

I like the Four Sword idea.


Daaaaang. You gonna kill all the Links? Pretty ambitious campaign goal.
Well, I mean I'm not going to. The party is... if they fail.

[Troacctid]

I did think about Bard for OoT and MM. I was hoping Stormwrack had goodies for WW, but I was wrong.

You don't like the Windsinger feat?

If it's wind-themed musical prestige classes you want, you're looking in the wrong book--Stormsinger is over thataway, in Frostburn.

[LoyalPaladin]

You don't like the Windsinger feat?

If it's wind-themed musical prestige classes you want, you're looking in the wrong book--Stormsinger is over thataway, in Frostburn.
Oooooo... I'm logging that away.

[KillingAScarab]

The idea I had some time ago for a character based on Link in Twilight Princess was to make a Lythari Aquatic Elf. Lythari is a Faerûn variation on werewolves, but they're all lawful good instead of chaotic evil, and if I remember correctly only elves can receive their curse. The aquatic elf has fighter as a favored class and would breathe water, but I saw the shapeshifting as a way to get around their gills. An item to mimic the Zora tunic is probably a better idea, and you're planning on using gestalt so multiclass penalties probably won't come into play.

[atemu1234]

The idea I had some time ago for a character based on Link in Twilight Princess was to make a Lythari Aquatic Elf. Lythari is a Faerûn variation on werewolves, but they're all lawful good instead of chaotic evil, and if I remember correctly only elves can receive their curse. The aquatic elf has fighter as a favored class and would breathe water, but I saw the shapeshifting as a way to get around their gills. An item to mimic the Zora tunic is probably a better idea, and you're planning on using gestalt so multiclass penalties probably won't come into play.

The alignment rules for the template are now pretty much up to the DM.

[Sith_Happens]

Don't fall into the trap of making him an elf. Hylians may have pointy ears, but besides that they're humans. That does mean you'll need to fiat or finangle some things to get him into Eternal Blade, though. Or just have him also be a Ruathar.

[Crake]

Make sure that all the links have whirlwind attack, or if they use maneuvers one of the tornado maneuvers.

[Platymus Pus]

I'm double check all the links regarding timelines and existence to make sure you don't make the same link.
I'd also include Hyrule Warrior's link. (http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=24669)

Also something to keep in mind.
Link is strong, really really strong.
The Links also have largely varied amounts of strength,skill and power.
For example, the Link that starts out at the beginning of OoT's strength (http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=18894).
Near 4.474 kilograms of tnt of energy from throwing a rock.

Link at the end of OoT for his strength (http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=20408)
The adult link with the golden gauntlets in OoT would have a str score of 68-69 just based on him lifting and throwing the thing with such ease.

The reactions they have should (http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21586) be all (http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=18814) off the charts (http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19375), DEX, insane amounts of it, think 100's+.
WIS and INT would be decent because they can all solve puzzles and use things nearly instantly with no training, Cha near non-existent due to well... not talking really, unless you want to get into him using magic items that have the power to wipe continents clean in a link to the past. (http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21710)

Also if you're wondering how powerful the goddesses are at minimum.
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=20410
A reference for how strong fierce deity should be if you decide to throw him in there since he's canon.
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19908
A reminder that it destroys the entire world and not just Termina. Majora is a major villain after all.

I'll be glad to discuss canon with you if you need help with that.

[justiceforall]

Or just have him also be a Ruathar.

I don't have the books in front of me, but if I recall correctly it has no mechanical effect for qualifying for elf-only classes? (as opposed to the Stone Blessed prestige)

[Sith_Happens]

[Snip]

Ah yes, NarutoForums. The meticulous researchers whose opinions on all matters of fictional character stats are respected across the Internet. We have dismissed that claim.


I don't have the books in front of me, but if I recall correctly it has no mechanical effect for qualifying for elf-only classes? (as opposed to the Stone Blessed prestige)

*checks*

You're right, I was getting... something or other backwards in my head. Probably the prerequisite to have done a great service to the elves, combined with the class being one of the go-to suggested ways for a full caster to get martial weapon proficiencies without losing a caster level or spending a feat.

[justiceforall]

It's got me curious enough to see if there's other ways around the racial restrictions to have just put up a question in the RAW QnA thread. If the seers come up with anything useful to Link I'll put it in here.


Also - I think Link is a ranger not a fighter :)

[Platymus Pus]

Ah yes, NarutoForums. The meticulous researchers whose opinions on all matters of fictional character stats are respected across the Internet. We have dismissed that claim.

The thing Link lifts and tosses should be about 344 tons,688000 that's why the score is so high.
A str score of 68-69, 614400-716800 would be needed for lifting a marble monolith of that size.


Everything else falls in line with the series and is based on canon.

It's got me curious enough to see if there's other ways around the racial restrictions to have just put up a question in the RAW QnA thread. If the seers come up with anything useful to Link I'll put it in here.


Also - I think Link is a ranger not a fighter :)

A classic switch hitter that is.

[Sith_Happens]

The thing Link lifts and tosses should be about 344 tons,688000 that's why the score is so high.
A str score of 68-69, 614400-716800 would be needed for lifting a marble monolith of that size.

There's other ways to increase carrying capacity.

[Platymus Pus]

There's other ways to increase carrying capacity.
Not to that degree while remaining humanoid and medium.
For context a character with 18 str would be able to lift an object of 600 pounds above.
The gauntlets would have to give a 1146.66666667 increase in lifting to a character with 18 str.
Also other links can do that sort of stuff WITHOUT magic.
Link's natural ability is just lower than thought of because he's a nintendo property and people don't pay attention.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Or, y'know, those fancy gauntlets just have a custom enchantment, something like 'allows the wearer to those these specific plot-barrier rocks'. :p

Or lift X tons, whichever is easier for you.

Also: Hylian, counts as both human and elf for all things that require either. Stats as human, otherwise.

[KillingAScarab]

Or, y'know, those fancy gauntlets just have a custom enchantment, something like 'allows the wearer to those these specific plot-barrier rocks'. I will second this. I wouldn't even consider them to add a bonus on strength checks. There were also no differences in the number of sword swings required to kill monster X with type Y gauntlets. They were a gating device for linear progression, not for simulation. Just as bombs are never simulations of demolitions or excavation projects.

[Red Fel]

Don't forget about Eternal Blade. It comes with its own fairy sidekick to help you with Z-targeting or whatever.

Pretty much this. You can craft any number of versions of Link from a combination of Bard, Crusader, Warblade, and Eternal Blade. Switch up stances and maneuver selections to further differentiate.

But yeah, I don't think there's a single person who looked at Eternal Blade, in particular the Blade Guide, and didn't immediately think, "Hey! Listen!"

And yes, I've seen some Eternal Blade archery builds that are fairly brutal as well. It can be done. Within those four classes you can pretty much find everything you need.

Alternatively, given his reliance on magical items and his tendency towards puzzles, what about Factotum or Artificer?

[LoyalPaladin]

Don't fall into the trap of making him an elf. Hylians may have pointy ears, but besides that they're humans.
I've got custom races for everything. So don't fret too much about qualifications.


I'm double check all the links regarding timelines and existence to make sure you don't make the same link.
I'd also include Hyrule Warrior's link. (http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=24669)
There are eleven canon Links as far as I am aware. I think that Hyrule Warriors would probably muddy the game too much, on top of not being canon.


Also - I think Link is a ranger not a fighter :)
I bet some of the Links would be a ranger... must look into it.


Also: Hylian, counts as both human and elf for all things that require either. Stats as human, otherwise.
I know this is going to make everyone vomit all over their keyboards, but wouldn't that just be a Half-Elf?


Alternatively, given his reliance on magical items and his tendency towards puzzles, what about Factotum or Artificer?
I am trying to go 20/20 in a class, but Factotum is pretty cool. I never felt Link was a tinkerer of sorts though, so I feel like Artificer is a poor fit thematically? Maybe I'm wrong.

[Ditto]

For the Windwaker version, think about the Windwright Captain PrC from Eberron. If you're gestalting him as a favored soul on one sight with all of them, I see no reason not to mix prestige classes in on the other side - you want them to feel distinct, and the base class abilities are all very similar. PrCs are the best way to mix it up!

I think several Links could benefit from Battle Trickster, Arcane Trickster, or Uncanny Trickster.

Use Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar to grab a lantern archon as your Navi stand-in. Maybe start with an owl (Kaepora!) as your starting familiar, he's Mr. Tutorial guy anyhow.

[LoyalPaladin]

For the Windwaker version, think about the Windwright Captain PrC from Eberron. If you're gestalting him as a favored soul on one sight with all of them, I see no reason not to mix prestige classes in on the other side - you want them to feel distinct, and the base class abilities are all very similar. PrCs are the best way to mix it up!

I think several Links could benefit from Battle Trickster, Arcane Trickster, or Uncanny Trickster.

Use Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar to grab a lantern archon as your Navi stand-in. Maybe start with an owl (Kaepora!) as your starting familiar, he's Mr. Tutorial guy anyhow.
Maybe I should specify a little more clearly. I'd like to have the Links feel like they are all different, I'd even like it if I could get them to fill different rolls at some point. I'd also hate if my poor players got outshone by an NPC, so I need to keep that in mind. However! I think most of them want to be outshone by Link, since he is their hero...

I have a spreadsheet somewhere about the levels it will take to get through which timeline... hold on... there it is. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K8NyFGB4eM9RFlDdOCexlOVjxrimT55PuCOUX53IDFc/edit?usp=sharing)

Anyways, the leveling is something like 20 _______, 10_________ // 20 Favored Soul, 10 Paladin of Freedom

[Red Fel]

For the Windwaker version, think about the Windwright Captain PrC from Eberron. If you're gestalting him as a favored soul on one sight with all of them, I see no reason not to mix prestige classes in on the other side - you want them to feel distinct, and the base class abilities are all very similar. PrCs are the best way to mix it up!

You know, speaking of Windwright Captain, a Half-Elf with the Mark of Storms is a heck of a thing. Link's been summoning the whirlwind since the beginning, hasn't he? The Greater Mark gives you Control Winds as an SLA, which can - among other things - create a pretty nasty tornado. And you can put that Mark on pretty much any Half-Elf, as you like - could even make it a defining Link trademark. As I recall, his more recent incarnations tend to acquire a certain triangle-shaped mark, anyhow...

[LoyalPaladin]

You know, speaking of Windwright Captain, a Half-Elf with the Mark of Storms is a heck of a thing. Link's been summoning the whirlwind since the beginning, hasn't he? The Greater Mark gives you Control Winds as an SLA, which can - among other things - create a pretty nasty tornado. And you can put that Mark on pretty much any Half-Elf, as you like - could even make it a defining Link trademark. As I recall, his more recent incarnations tend to acquire a certain triangle-shaped mark, anyhow...
Oooooooo. That is another thing I will log away!

[The-Mage-King]

Why Favored Soul, may I ask? The Mystic class from Dragonlance CS is less, uh, 'spread out' if you're wanting spontaneous divine casting, and Factotum is an overall better 'fit' for what Link can do otherwise.

[LoyalPaladin]

Why Favored Soul, may I ask? The Mystic class from Dragonlance CS is less, uh, 'spread out' if you're wanting spontaneous divine casting, and Factotum is an overall better 'fit' for what Link can do otherwise.
I don't think he really needs to be super powerful. The favored soul is mostly because it won't give him a ton more than the other players get. On top of all that, the fluff really fits him well. After all, he is the goddesses favorite plaything to reincarnate again and again.

[Platymus Pus]

Or, y'know, those fancy gauntlets just have a custom enchantment, something like 'allows the wearer to those these specific plot-barrier rocks'. :p

Or lift X tons, whichever is easier for you.

The item states that it lets you lift mountains.
On that note, Oni Link from Majora's mask is stronger than the 4 giants, Giants that stopped a moon with the force to destroy the entire world behind it.

[Sith_Happens]

The item states that it lets you lift mountains.

Which you never actually do anything near, so that line is obviously hyperbole.

[Platymus Pus]

Which you never actually do anything near, so that line is obviously hyperbole.

Well, if you feel like downplaying magical items that would be considered artifacts it's not my problem.
It's hyperbole sure, but it's enough to let a character with 18 str to lift objects over a multiple of x1000 of lifting capacity.
Throw something like that on a hulking hurler and see how it goes.

[KillingAScarab]

I noticed you did connect Wind Waker with Phantom Hourglass. That one easily has the greatest treasure hunter feel to it, with all the sea charts you end up needing. Whatever else you do for that Link, I feel it was the sneakiest one from the games I have played. He doesn't need hide in plain sight, but hide/move silently ranks shouldn't be overlooked. Especially in Phantom Hourglass, where he had to reapeat portions of the Temple of the Ocean King (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Temple_of_the_Ocean_King) about as much as Solid Snake backtracks on the otherwise-straightforward Shadow Moses Island (http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081207010100/metalgear/images/0/08/Shadow_Moses_Map.JPG), with one of your DS screens acting not all that different from Soliton Radar (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/MGS_Solton_Radar_Shot.svg).

I'm tempted to say the Link in Majora's Mask is the most likely to use Incarnum, given the fluff for the masks, but nothing in Magic of Incarnum would really be transformative; even giralon arms and incarnate avatar are ghostly and soulmelds aren't discrete items the Happy Mask Salesman could peddle. Soulmelds also wouldn't be great at switching masks repeatedly. I suppose, rather than having meldshaper levels, you just make the masks magic items and give the Ocarina of Time young Link access to a feat which grants some essentia to power them. The essentia pool could then be used for switching between enhancing movement, combat abilities and your perform skill with one instrument (except Fierce Deity Mask: it was optional and it was only for combat).

On the subject of intruments, would Link from Link's Awakening require the ability to play all eight instruments (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naWA-iMGQKo), or would he just need to gather them?

[The-Mage-King]

I don't think he really needs to be super powerful. The favored soul is mostly because it won't give him a ton more than the other players get. On top of all that, the fluff really fits him well. After all, he is the goddesses favorite plaything to reincarnate again and again.

Then I'd still suggest Mystic over FS. Less extraneous stuff, and one fewer casting stat, along with a domain of choice. Not as much stuff as a Favored Soul, but... It opens up more options, since you get a whole domain, including powers.

Anyway, my two rupees.


Skyward Sword: Knight (Doesn't quite fit. Crusader, instead? Either way, he needs Ancestral Weapon.)
Minish Cap: 'Thug' Fighter. Put some skills in Craft. Maybe Psywar, too, since there's size-changing shenanigans.
Four Swords: No clue
Ocarina of Time & Majora's Mask: The aforementioned Eternal Blade. Maybe with a dash of Bard for the music
A Link to the Past, Oracle of Ages/Seasons, Links Awakening: Knight or maybe Thug Fighter. Maybe Feat Rogue, too.
A Link Between Worlds: Not really sure. (Planar) Ranger, perhaps?
The Legend of Zelda & The Adventure of Link: Fighter. Variants up to you.
Twilight Princess: Warblade(That works well enough. Meaning nearly perfectly. Eternal Blade as an option, to.)
Four Swords Adventure: No clue
Windwaker & Phantom Hourglass: Swashbuckler/Rogue. Maybe Bard.
Spirit Tracks: No clue


Oh, and Hyrule Warriors Link is a Warblade, focusing on Iron Heart. Gotta sweep the mooks. :smalltongue:

[Red Fel]

Gah! I almost forgot something!

Twilight Princess Link should be a Longtooth Shifter. The reasons should be exceedingly obvious, and it beats statting a full Werewolf. It's not the most optimal race, or the most optimal Shifter trait, but you know why it fits.

Four Swords Link could be Dvati, I guess. If you want to deal with that madness.

[Twice]

I personally wouldn't have much to add here other than a suggest. I'd be inclined toward giving Link some sort of sign language, perhaps a custom Hylian one or simple Drow Sign.

[Reprimand]

An elf factotum/warblade/eternal blade goes a long way toward being link. You add your int bonus to a billion things cementing the character as a thinker and a fighter together, factotum gives you access to all skills eternal blade even gives you a Blade Guide following you to give you advice which can be snarky or annoying at the players choice.

[goto124]

a Blade Guide following you to give you advice which can be snarky or annoying at the players choice.

heylisten!heylisten!heylisten!heylisten!heylisten! heylisten!heylisten!heylisten!heylisten!heylisten! heylisten!heylisten!heylisten!heylisten!heylisten! heylisten!heylisten!heylisten!heylisten!heylisten! heylisten!heylisten!heylisten!heylisten!heylisten! heylisten!heylisten!heylisten!heylisten!heylisten!

[LoyalPaladin]

Anyway, my two rupees.:
Ooooooo. I like these. More things to add to my spreadsheet collection!


Gah! I almost forgot something!

Twilight Princess Link should be a Longtooth Shifter.
I will definitely take a look into this!

[The-Mage-King]

Ooooooo. I like these. More things to add to my spreadsheet collection!

My suggestions were based sorta on the Timelines (http://zeldawiki.org/images/7/7c/Timeline_Hyrule_Historia.jpg).


Timeline A is called the 'decline', so... Less 'magical' classes, overall.

B is more stable, so keeping with the higher fantasy feel.

And C is "Oceans and exploration", so...

[Reprimand]

Ooooooo. I like these. More things to add to my spreadsheet collection!


I will definitely take a look into this!

I Also believe there is an actual zelda d20 you can draw from as well somewhere in the corners of the internet such as custom races.

It sort of mixed the elf the halfling to get an elf with luck bonuses to saving throws to represent them being blessed by the godesses, etc

Gorans eat stone and moblins eat metal from what I remember fun racials to put in there.

[LoyalPaladin]

I Also believe there is an actual zelda d20 you can draw from as well somewhere in the corners of the internet such as custom races.
I've downloaded that purely for monsters haha.