Pippin
2015-04-15, 03:37 PM
Description of Extract Gift (http://dndtools.pw/spells/fiendish-codex-i-hordes-of-the-abyss--66/extract-gift--1154/)
Obscure handbook about Extract Gift (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2421.0)
Discussion thread about the obscure handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2761.0)
So, I'm trying to use extract gift to get the best enhancement bonus to Int (and while I'm at it... to Dex/Con/Wis/Cha) possible. Preferably more than +8 otherwise a persisted necrotic empowerment would be better. Let's pretend our DM is permissive enough to make it work. Since I've never read something really clear about this issue, I would like to make a thread as clear and comprehensive as possible about it. Sadly, I haven't understood everything yet, so I'll probably edit in the future.
Right! So, to get the most of EG, you have to use two different creatures (let's call them A and B) and boost them as much as possible. Once this is done, we just have to cast EG a few times, then we have the permament bonus to Int.
For example, let's say both A and B are boosted to 74 Int (modifier is +32) :
Use polymorph to grant them the demon type. Since the casting time of EG is 1 hour, you might want to extend polymorph.
Apply EG to A, using B. A now has 74 + 32/2 = 90 INT. (modifier is +40)
Then apply EG to B, using A. B now has 74 + 40/2 = 94 INT. (modifier is +42)
Repeat. A now has 74 + 42/2 = 95 INT. (modifier is +42)
Again. B now has 74 + 42/2 = 95 INT. (idem)
Any further casting would be useless as we reached the limit.
Then, use either creature to get a +42/2 = +21 enhancement bonus to Int. That's the theory. Now, there are a few problems we must solve in order for us to make this possible:
The CL of the spellcaster using EG must be at least 42 to issue a +21 enhancement bonus (and at least 30 to make an extended polymorph last a full hour).
The total cost in XP and GP for all the EGs is so expensive that we can only do it using another creature that has EG as a spell-like ability. So we must find someone or something that will do the job for us.
We must find a creature with as much Int as possible. It seems that Ha-Naga (Epic Level Handbook, 195) is the best candidate for this.
Boosting Ha-Naga
Hire a SCM with access to miracle to shadow-miracle two Simulacrum of these: Ha-Naga (ELH p195); Draconic (RotD p74); Pherenic (XPH p205); Multi-Headed, 29 extra heads (SS p125); Half-Fiend (MM p148); Paragon (ELH p209) with the higher stats form the elite ability score array, and the levels, into Int for a creature with 39 HD and an Int of 60.
Boost the first one. Profane bonus (from possession) of 4, Enhancement of 6 (spell w/ ability enhancement feat), and the shoes for 10. Ending at 80.
Elaborating his post a bit:
Ha-Naga HD 20, Str 27, Dex 38, Con 032, Int 35, Wis 31, Cha 36
Draconic Template HD 21, Str 29, Dex 38, Con 034, Int 35, Wis 31, Cha 38
Pherenic Template HD 23, Str 29, Dex 38, Con 034, Int 37, Wis 33, Cha 42
Multi-Headed Template (29) HD 32, Str 29, Dex 38, Con 092, Int 37, Wis 33, Cha 42
Half-Fiend Template HD 36, Str 33, Dex 42, Con 094, Int 41, Wis 33, Cha 44
Paragon Template HD 36, Str 48, Dex 57, Con 109, Int 56, Wis 48, Cha 59
Leveling (to Int) HD 36, Str 48, Dex 57, Con 109, Int 60, Wis 48, Cha 59
The cheapest way to get two of these would be simulacrum, with a 3,600 XP cost for each. You must have a CL of 36 for that, but I'm not sure how to get there at, say, level 17. Help.
Also I'm not so sure as to why he added 4 points to Int due to leveling. Gaining HDs from templates isn't actually gaining levels, but what do I know. If someone could confirm that this is all legit, that would be appreciated. He then uses a fiend of possession to possess Ha-Naga and grant her a +4 bonus to Int. He then uses the Horseshoes of Flame to grant her another +10 bonus to Int, but he doesn't specify how Ha-Naga would get the UMD Skill required for it, nor does he explain if the entire procedure remains legal because, well, they are horseshoes. Not to mention that Ha-Naga isn't a fiend, so after you cast polymorph, it's unlikely that the +10 bonus is still applied.
After that, Ha-Naga has an Int score of 74. Lucky for us, that's exactly the score used in the example! So her final Int score would be 95, which means a +21 enhancement bonus to Int for us.
Finding the creature with a CL of 42 that will cast EG for us
In Complete Arcane on page 162. Add this template to an undead with a Wis score of at least 17, and make Extract Gift one of its granted SLA’s.
Pro: It does not require any particular build to function, thus no character level investment. Only 1,000gp and the Craft Wondrous Item Feat.
Con: Requires 500XP for each point of the creatures Wis score, thus a minimum of 8,500xp. Caster level is based on HD. Caster level difficult is to raise. Only usable 1 or 2 times per day. Resigned to dealing with undead.
This is the obscure part. (I didn't even get why he talked about a crafting feat, nor what the XP cost refers to.) Maybe use a third simulacrum to get an undead with the Spellstitched template, possibly with a base CL of 20, then find ways to boost his CL even more. But again, I need help for this. The main spell for that is consumptive field, but it can only grant you a bonus up to half your CL. Using the spell multiple times to maximize this bonus might not be approved by the DM.
So yea, I really need help to clear up everything.
Obscure handbook about Extract Gift (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2421.0)
Discussion thread about the obscure handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2761.0)
So, I'm trying to use extract gift to get the best enhancement bonus to Int (and while I'm at it... to Dex/Con/Wis/Cha) possible. Preferably more than +8 otherwise a persisted necrotic empowerment would be better. Let's pretend our DM is permissive enough to make it work. Since I've never read something really clear about this issue, I would like to make a thread as clear and comprehensive as possible about it. Sadly, I haven't understood everything yet, so I'll probably edit in the future.
Right! So, to get the most of EG, you have to use two different creatures (let's call them A and B) and boost them as much as possible. Once this is done, we just have to cast EG a few times, then we have the permament bonus to Int.
For example, let's say both A and B are boosted to 74 Int (modifier is +32) :
Use polymorph to grant them the demon type. Since the casting time of EG is 1 hour, you might want to extend polymorph.
Apply EG to A, using B. A now has 74 + 32/2 = 90 INT. (modifier is +40)
Then apply EG to B, using A. B now has 74 + 40/2 = 94 INT. (modifier is +42)
Repeat. A now has 74 + 42/2 = 95 INT. (modifier is +42)
Again. B now has 74 + 42/2 = 95 INT. (idem)
Any further casting would be useless as we reached the limit.
Then, use either creature to get a +42/2 = +21 enhancement bonus to Int. That's the theory. Now, there are a few problems we must solve in order for us to make this possible:
The CL of the spellcaster using EG must be at least 42 to issue a +21 enhancement bonus (and at least 30 to make an extended polymorph last a full hour).
The total cost in XP and GP for all the EGs is so expensive that we can only do it using another creature that has EG as a spell-like ability. So we must find someone or something that will do the job for us.
We must find a creature with as much Int as possible. It seems that Ha-Naga (Epic Level Handbook, 195) is the best candidate for this.
Boosting Ha-Naga
Hire a SCM with access to miracle to shadow-miracle two Simulacrum of these: Ha-Naga (ELH p195); Draconic (RotD p74); Pherenic (XPH p205); Multi-Headed, 29 extra heads (SS p125); Half-Fiend (MM p148); Paragon (ELH p209) with the higher stats form the elite ability score array, and the levels, into Int for a creature with 39 HD and an Int of 60.
Boost the first one. Profane bonus (from possession) of 4, Enhancement of 6 (spell w/ ability enhancement feat), and the shoes for 10. Ending at 80.
Elaborating his post a bit:
Ha-Naga HD 20, Str 27, Dex 38, Con 032, Int 35, Wis 31, Cha 36
Draconic Template HD 21, Str 29, Dex 38, Con 034, Int 35, Wis 31, Cha 38
Pherenic Template HD 23, Str 29, Dex 38, Con 034, Int 37, Wis 33, Cha 42
Multi-Headed Template (29) HD 32, Str 29, Dex 38, Con 092, Int 37, Wis 33, Cha 42
Half-Fiend Template HD 36, Str 33, Dex 42, Con 094, Int 41, Wis 33, Cha 44
Paragon Template HD 36, Str 48, Dex 57, Con 109, Int 56, Wis 48, Cha 59
Leveling (to Int) HD 36, Str 48, Dex 57, Con 109, Int 60, Wis 48, Cha 59
The cheapest way to get two of these would be simulacrum, with a 3,600 XP cost for each. You must have a CL of 36 for that, but I'm not sure how to get there at, say, level 17. Help.
Also I'm not so sure as to why he added 4 points to Int due to leveling. Gaining HDs from templates isn't actually gaining levels, but what do I know. If someone could confirm that this is all legit, that would be appreciated. He then uses a fiend of possession to possess Ha-Naga and grant her a +4 bonus to Int. He then uses the Horseshoes of Flame to grant her another +10 bonus to Int, but he doesn't specify how Ha-Naga would get the UMD Skill required for it, nor does he explain if the entire procedure remains legal because, well, they are horseshoes. Not to mention that Ha-Naga isn't a fiend, so after you cast polymorph, it's unlikely that the +10 bonus is still applied.
After that, Ha-Naga has an Int score of 74. Lucky for us, that's exactly the score used in the example! So her final Int score would be 95, which means a +21 enhancement bonus to Int for us.
Finding the creature with a CL of 42 that will cast EG for us
In Complete Arcane on page 162. Add this template to an undead with a Wis score of at least 17, and make Extract Gift one of its granted SLA’s.
Pro: It does not require any particular build to function, thus no character level investment. Only 1,000gp and the Craft Wondrous Item Feat.
Con: Requires 500XP for each point of the creatures Wis score, thus a minimum of 8,500xp. Caster level is based on HD. Caster level difficult is to raise. Only usable 1 or 2 times per day. Resigned to dealing with undead.
This is the obscure part. (I didn't even get why he talked about a crafting feat, nor what the XP cost refers to.) Maybe use a third simulacrum to get an undead with the Spellstitched template, possibly with a base CL of 20, then find ways to boost his CL even more. But again, I need help for this. The main spell for that is consumptive field, but it can only grant you a bonus up to half your CL. Using the spell multiple times to maximize this bonus might not be approved by the DM.
So yea, I really need help to clear up everything.