Replacing Vancian Magic

[squab]

So I've spent a decent amount of time recently thinking about Vancian Magic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VancianMagic) and how I just really don't like it. The spell per day thing makes no sense to me on spontaneous casters and I just hate quadratic wizards. I want something that doesn't usually feel really weak at level 1 (without a silly amount of optimizing) and at level 20 is at least a couple of orders of magnitude weaker then the reality warpers I've read that level 20 wizards end up being. (I've got 0 experience playing at really high levels.) A tier 3 full caster would be great.

Anyways, the past couple days I've posted in a few threads with comments and questions about it, read some encouraging stuff about Spheres of Power and Psionics (which I own) and Akashic Mysteries, mostly I'm just hoping for some input and discussion and summarized descriptions of other options.

[Asrrin]

Binders, Soulshapers, Warlocks, Psionics (minus the game breaking stuff), shadowcrafters. I think that covers most of the usable magical subsystems...

[ArcanistSupreme]

I just bought Spheres of Power yesterday. I've only read through 5 of the 20 spheres and one of the classes, and it's all amazing. It's an incredibly flexible system that can fit almost any casting concept that you can come up with, including many not natively supported by 3.5/PF without severe refluffing.

[Chronikoce]

I purchased spheres of power a little while back and it seems really cool, better balanced, and very flavorful. The abilities for the most part seem about T3 or so in terms of power and the only thing that I think you would have to watch out for is Conjuration Sphere if a player decides they want to go the build a massive army of weak guys who just abuse action economy to win.

[stack]

Spheres of power, Akashic mysteries, and psionics are all good. Psionics still leaves you running out of juice and has a higher power than the others. Spheres of power is great, though I feel many of the talents use more spell pool than warranted. I like all of them, though just bought spheres so haven't done more than read it and try a couple builds.

[Der_DWSage]

Let's just say that you're gonna get several recommendations for Spheres of Power. (And for good reason!) It helps that there's examples for replacing base casting classes with Spherecasting archetypes.

[squab]

Spheres of Power acquired. Might get Akashic mysteries in the future.

[atemu1234]

Let's just say that you're gonna get several recommendations for Spheres of Power. (And for good reason!) It helps that there's examples for replacing base casting classes with Spherecasting archetypes.

I still haven't read the preview pdf. Shhh, no spoilers.

[Kaidinah]

From experience, Spheres of Power, Psionics, and Akasha work fine.

I want to try Pact Magic from Radiance House, but their new book is still being worked on and its a remake of their previous books+new content. Therefore I will wait. I have heard incredibly good things about the previous books though.

Ultimate Ethermagic from Interjection Games I have heard is phenomenal. It is an incredibly highly rated product that is supposedly balanced while giving infinite magic use.

Lastly, the Onmyoji from Interjection Games has a unique casting system that is well balanced and good. It is very Japanese in theme, so it may not float everyone's boat, but its darn great.

[Crake]

is spheres of power gonna be put on the pathfinder SRD at any point? Or is it too 3rd party to hope?

[Snowbluff]

Spheres of power, Akashic mysteries, and psionics are all good. Psionics still leaves you running out of juice and has a higher power than the others. Spheres of power is great, though I feel many of the talents use more spell pool than warranted. I like all of them, though just bought spheres so haven't done more than read it and try a couple builds.


From experience, Spheres of Power, Psionics, and Akasha work fine.


Yeah, no. Psionics is an awful suggestion. The powers are pretty much just as strong, you'll still run into Quadratic Wizards, and you'll still be running out of juice. :smallsigh:

[Ravens_cry]

How is Words of Power from Ultimate Magic? I love the concept, but it sounds like it would add a huge system mastery boundary.

[Der_DWSage]

I still haven't read the preview pdf. Shhh, no spoilers.

Ooooh. Uh. You may want to avert your eyes on page 110 then-when Druid gets introduced, he kinda does horrible things to Shifter. Like, beats him up and rifles through his pockets for change.

[Afgncaap5]

The thing is, I like Vancian magic for certain flavors of wizard. And to an extent it makes sense... say the right word, wave your hands the right way, manipulate an eye of a newt and you get a decent image of a spell from a lot of fantasy tropes. But it really doesn't fit *everything*, and the problem gets glaringly bad.

I generally ramble to myself about various fixes (https://craterlabs.wordpress.com/category/magical-mondays/) (many involving copious amounts of flavor and Spellcraft checks to manipulate how magic works on the fly), but I do hope to read Spheres Of Power some day.

[squab]

Yeah, no. Psionics is an awful suggestion. The powers are pretty much just as strong, you'll still run into Quadratic Wizards, and you'll still be running out of juice. :smallsigh:

Psionics at least doesn't have "you can only cast your best spell once" and "none of the spells you have left are useful" problem. I think that the most powerful 9th level spells are more stronger then the most powerful 9th level powers, but (ignoring outliers) they probably have pretty close to the same average power. (Also I can create my own demi plane at level 11 so there's THAT. At least according to a spell that's completely different in the book then the SRD.)

I don't think Vancian magic is bad per se, the flavor of a wizard who does most of the work ahead of time for a spell and then finishes on the fly when needed is kinda cool, but imho it shouldn't be the default and it's certainly not what I want to play.

[Elric VIII]

The way I have balanced full casters is with the following rules:


You cannot cast spells of a base level higher than a bard of your spellcaster level could cast.


You still retain normal spell slot progression (for metamagic, etc)


Full casters get heighten spell for free.


There are a few other minor clarifications and exceptions, but that is the general idea. So wizards/clerics/druids are the same power level at level 1 and slowly reach a power level of a partial caster but with additional metamagic capabilities instead of the secondary focus of bards/inquisitors/magi/alchemists.

It's not perfect, but it noticeably lowers the power ceiling of high level casters. I know it's still vancian casters, but this is something to consider if your players still like them.

[Snowbluff]

The way I have balanced full casters is with the following rules:



You still retain normal spell slot progression (for metamagic, etc)



This part is important when nerfing them by spell level, but overall the casters will get bored with a slower progression. I think you'd pretty much have to spot ban the powerful spells, but I honestly think that casters should get to do something crazy every so often.

[Crake]

if you don't like the power of high level casters, 5th edition toned down their power and brought everything much more in line. Note that vancian magic and quadratic wizards are two separate issues, even though the OP made them sound like they were somehow related. So solving them requires two separate fixes. I haven't looked at spheres of power, so I can't really speak for it. Words of power solves the quadratic wizard problem to a degree, removing much of the versatility from spellcasting, and pretty much reducing it to blasting, with a few borderline useful effect words. As for not liking vancian casting, there's the spell points variant in unearthed arcana that acts as more of a mana/MP system more similar to psionic power points if that's what you'd prefer.

Edit: 5th also KINDA solves the vancian problem, in that it changes some stuff around and now you prepare a smaller list of spells and can spontaneously cast off that list, including the free ability to heighten many spells (indeed, that is the only way to make spells more powerful in 5e, spells no longer scale with CL but with spell level now). You still have spell slots, but they aren't so bad really, plenty of games have used them in the past, even games like final fantasy

[squab]

5th Edition also has a spellpoints alternate rule variant, which when I eventually play 5th ed, that's getting used if I have anything to say about it.

I'm under the impression that they still have the "linear warriors quadratic wizards" problem, just toned down a lot from previous editions.

[Vhaidara]

Spheres. Spheres. Did I mention Spheres? It just works so much better. There Spheres themselves are very well balanced, and the Advanced Talents still let you do some silly things (mostly non-combat) at very high levels. Like the Midnight Advanced Talent for the Darkness Sphere: Spend 2 Spell Points, and your Darkness ability gets a 2 mile radius. "I WILL TURN OFF THE SUN!"


is spheres of power gonna be put on the pathfinder SRD at any point? Or is it too 3rd party to hope?

I think it will be. It's still in development, and the PFSRD doesn't include things that haven't received a full release (like PoW:E content, for example).

[Snowbluff]

Spheres. Spheres. Did I mention Spheres?

Hey, is this you?
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120808212405/finalfantasy/images/7/73/Yuripa.jpg
"Get it cuz there sphere hunters"

[Vhaidara]

Hey, is this you?
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120808212405/finalfantasy/images/7/73/Yuripa.jpg
"Get it cuz there sphere hunters"

Hey, it was my first FF game, so I can't overly object.

[SimonMoon6]

So I've spent a decent amount of time recently thinking about Vancian Magic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VancianMagic) and how I just really don't like it. The spell per day thing makes no sense to me on spontaneous casters and I just hate quadratic wizards. I want something that doesn't usually feel really weak at level 1 (without a silly amount of optimizing) and at level 20 is at least a couple of orders of magnitude weaker then the reality warpers I've read that level 20 wizards end up being. (I've got 0 experience playing at really high levels.) A tier 3 full caster would be great.

How about this:

Sorcerers. Take away "spells per day" limitation, but keep the "number of spells known". So, if he knows magic missile, he can cast it as many times as he likes. Then, treat the class' spell list as only being the spells known. If he doesn't know magic missile, he can't use a wand of magic missile.

Mission accomplished?