Favoured Soul Battle Priest Build

[Lubber]

So want to make a favoured soul with focus on dishing out melee damage. As a basis, I want to use this battle priest concept here. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Battle_Priest_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29 ) I know that a standard cleric is probably better than a favoured soul, but I like spontaneous casting and I'm not going for the best build ever. The character starts at level 4 and the campaign will probably go to level 10 or 12, so no need to plan ahead to level 20 or so.

What I would like my character to do:

1) No healing spells
2) Dish out melee damage
3) Buff himself (primarily) and others (secondarily)
4) No focus on DC-based spells so I don't have to focus on WIS, CHA and STR/CON
5) Non-core books are okay (obviously, because FS isn't core), but I don't want to go too exotic

Any hints, tips, suggestions? :smallsmile:

[GilesTheCleric]

Don't overlook the spontaneous cleric variant in UA 64. All the goodness of cleric, but with sorc/fs casting.

The SADdest route to go is zen archery, of course, but there's just something about rearranging your enemies' facial structure with your mace that's difficult to replace.

The linked battle priest seems to think that investing anything other than gold into shields is a good idea; don't be misled by this. It also neglects the single most important feat for meleeing in 3.5, which is power attack. If you're fine with "not the best build ever", then all you need to do is spend one feat on power attack, cast Divine Power (+righteous wrath of the faithful +righteous might if you're feeling especially vengeful) before fights, and spend all of the rest of your feats/skills/spells/race on whatever else it is that's important to your character concept. If you have a general idea of what your foe's AC is, then use a power attack calculator to determine the best PA number, and you're set. Frankly, one feat for PA is all you need for most games, and it's especially effective at low levels, and still relevant in the midgame at lvl 12.

If you want to increase your output, increase the number of feats/spells/items you invest into your str and PA.

Beyond that, check out the link in my sig for some useful spells (the fellow I wrote the list up for had a request very similar to yours, so it should be appropriate). If you want some domain suggestions, let me know. There's a lot of domains, some good, some not, but it's a good way to add flavour to your character so I won't impose anything unrequested on you.

Edit: I looked over the entire battle priest page, and oh my. Not to be too down, but pretending like that page doesn't exist is a good idea. It's not that it's a bad build -- it has cleric 10 in it -- it's just that it doesn't really do anything better than a cleric 10 with no feats, no skills, and no items would do, while still using up every single one of those resources. As a rule of thumb, dandwiki isn't a good resource, though I've heard that they've cleaned up their act a bit recently (most of the flak they get is for not making it clear what is homebrew and what isn't, though judging by a lot of the brew and advice I've seen there, I'd give them flak for that as well). It's a shame -- they have "wiki" in the url, so it does seem like a legit place to go. In short, your decision making skills are good since you've come here to ask about it.

[Lubber]

Thanks for the feedback and the link. :smallsmile:

So, is there any point in going the shield bash way or should I just use the shield as a shield and focus on my primary weapon.

I'm also open for domain suggestions. I don't know which campaign world we're in, though (still waiting for a message for my DM because I forgot to ask that). The War domain seems to be pretty popular in general. Time looks nice for Improved Initiative, but it's a bit obscure and with heavy equipment and low DEX, my initiative is probably not going to be top anyway. Trickery looks good for some CHA-based skills. Destruction would fit my theme.

[GilesTheCleric]

Thanks for the feedback and the link. :smallsmile:

So, is there any point in going the shield bash way or should I just use the shield as a shield and focus on my primary weapon.

I'm also open for domain suggestions. I don't know which campaign world we're in, though (still waiting for a message for my DM because I forgot to ask that). The War domain seems to be pretty popular in general. Time looks nice for Improved Initiative, but it's a bit obscure and with heavy equipment and low DEX, my initiative is probably not going to be top anyway. Trickery looks good for some CHA-based skills. Destruction would fit my theme.

If you want to use a shield and shield bash things for the style points, go for it. Who needs a mace when you can slowly walk at your giggling enemies with nothing but a shield and then send them to the Wall of Souls like the unrepentant sinners they are? Just be sure to wield it with two hands so you can get str *1.5 and x2 PA with it. Don't forget to add shield spikes to it if you're going that route, so that you can put both armour and weapon enchants on it (also spells like Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment). Really optimizing shields takes a lot of work, but if your DM is chill with you just using it like a 2hander, that's all you really need. Otherwise, the problem with using a shield is that with heaver shields you don't have a free hand for casting; also, by lvl 12 the +1-4 AC you get from a shield isn't going to appreciably reduce the number of incoming attacks from foes (attack bonuses scale faster than AC bonuses). At level 4, it's still useful to have +2 or more AC, though.

If you can talk your GM into letting you worship Konkresh (CW 148), Syreth (CW 148), Gaerdal Ironhand (FaP 135), Yondalla (PHB), Valkur (FaP 110), Mayaheine (Drag323 65), Nobanion (FaP 102), Tempus (FaP 71), or Dispater (FC1 27) and have their favoured weapon be a shield instead of their current one, all of those make sense for that. With the Heretic of the Faith feat (PoF 46), you can choose for any deity to have the shield as their favoured weapon.

Aurifar (Ss 45) has the heavy spiked shield as his favoured weapon, though.

In terms of domains, this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19034443&postcount=4) sums up the best ones in core for each type of cleric build. Some other decent ones:
Bestial, BoVD 80: scent
Deathbound, LM 60: x1.5 undead control limit
Destiny RoD 163: reroll
Dragon Below, ECS 106: Augment Summoning
Dream, SC 273: immunity to fear
Drow, SC 273: Lightning Reflexes
Dwarf SC 273: Great Fortitude
Fate, SC 274: uncanny dodge
Gluttony, SC 274: 1/day enlarge person
Hunger, SC 275: natural bite attack
Hunt, Drag342 89: Track
Incarnum, MoI 96: Incarnum Spellshaping
Inquisition, SC 275: +4 dispel checks
Knowledge, PHB: all know skills
Liberation, SC 276: 1 rd later reroll mind-affecting save
Luck, PHB: reroll
Lust, SC 276: 1/day, 1 rd: clr lvl to cha
Magic, PHB: use wiz UMD
Mentalism, SC 276: 1/day clr lvl+2 to next will save
Metal, SC 276: Wep focus+prof: warhammer/ light hammer
Night, Drag342 89: low light/DV
Planning, SC 278: Extend Spell
Pleasure, BoED 87: immune to cha drain/dmg
Portal, Und 53: Portal Sensitive
Pride, SC 287: reroll 1s on saves
Revered Ancestor, FoE 149: wep focus+ewp: valenar double scimitar
Rune, SC 279: Scribe Scroll
Seafolk, Sw 110: swim feat
Spell, SC 280: +2 spellcraft, concentration
Time, SC 281: Imp Init
Travel, PHB: free FoM
Trickery, PHB: social skills
Undeath, SC 281: Extra Turning
War, PHB: wep focus+prof deity's wep There's other domains that are good because of their spell options, but it doesn't sound like you'll be casting too many spells, and you already have access to basically every buff you'll ever want save for a few wiz ones (eg Nerveskitter, Tenser's Transformation), and drd ones (Greater Mighty Wallop, Brambles, etc). If you want them, use Anyspell from the Spell domain. Unless you're taking the -6 init flaw, you can still have a positive init between Imp Init and Sign. (+4+4 = +8).

Edit: I'll note that on any cleric build that I'm not going DMM:X (Divine Metamagic), I usually pick up the Pride and Spell/Time domains, unless I need something like Great Fortitude for a pre-req.

[Red Fel]

Thanks for the feedback and the link. :smallsmile:

So, is there any point in going the shield bash way or should I just use the shield as a shield and focus on my primary weapon.

I'm also open for domain suggestions. I don't know which campaign world we're in, though (still waiting for a message for my DM because I forgot to ask that). The War domain seems to be pretty popular in general. Time looks nice for Improved Initiative, but it's a bit obscure and with heavy equipment and low DEX, my initiative is probably not going to be top anyway. Trickery looks good for some CHA-based skills. Destruction would fit my theme.

Honestly, the math behind shields is bad. Unless you're specifically making a shield bash build - which is your call - I'd avoid it altogether in favor of a two-handed weapon. If your goal is breaking face, that's how it's done; if you really need a shield, get an Animated Shield so you can use your hand to wield the aforementioned murdermaker.

With respect to domains, Strength Domain has a rather vicious 1/day power. At high Cleric levels, that's incredibly brutal for a melee Cleric. That said, there's a lot of spell overlap with the War Domain. And while Enlarge Person is nice, it's rendered obsolete by Righteous Might once that comes online - and the latter is a standard Cleric spell. The Time Domain, as you mention, is a nice touch, and more importantly lets you access a lot of spell from outside of the Cleric list, including Haste. Lastly, the Knowledge domain is valuable, not just because of the skills, but because of Knowledge Devotion, which will basically give you boosts in melee against all sorts of opponents.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, dandwiki is generally not worth using. Its homebrew articles are often indistinguishable from official content, and terrible builds such as the one you linked are touted as 'optimized' when they're anything but. Seriously, shield bash and dragonscale husk? For your own benefit, please stop going to dandwiki, if you want suggestions for a build just type (class name) handbook into google and follow links that go to brilliantgameologists, minmaxboards, community.wizards, and right here at giantitp. For example, a search for cleric handbook (https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1AVNC_enUS596US596&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=cleric%20handbook) has the top three results at brilliantgameologists, giantitp, and community.wizards, and all three contain superb information.

I would recommend using the Spontaneous Divine Casters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) variant and making a LN Human Cleric of Zarus (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=1), get the Strength and War domains and use the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 for one of those so you can cast your domain spells more than 1/day. Trade your Strength domain power for Divine Restoration in Dungeonscape.

Take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) for two extra feats if possible and get Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persistent, Power Attack, and Extra Turning. If you can't use flaws, then either get Power Attack, Law Devotion, and Strength Devotion, or start with DMM: Persistent and let Power Attack wait until 6th. In any case say you visited the Frog God's Fane in Complete Scoundrel to get Skill Focus: Knowledge: Religion for 2,000 gp instead of spending a feat on it, and go Cleric 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 1+ for your build.

Get a Reliquary Holy Symbol in MIC and try to pick up some Nightsticks from LM. Get a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend for buffs like Magic Vestment, and get a +1 Animated shield. Put a Wand Chamber from Dungeonscape in your Greatsword and put a (partially charged) wand of a low level utility spell such as Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) in that. Get a standard Strand of Prayer Beads that's had the Bead of Smiting removed, so it only has the Bead of Healing and the Bead of Karma, post-errata DMG pricing puts that at just 9,000 gp. Activate the Bead of Karma before casting your long duration buffs each day. Take a look at the weapon crystals and the armor/shield crystals in MIC.

[Lubber]

Wow, Dandwiki is really unpopular here. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks for your help, but we're not using variant rules. There's also no way to just "get equipment", so I want to focus on stuff like feats (which I as a player have control over).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Thanks for your help, but we're not using variant rules. There's also no way to just "get equipment", so I want to focus on stuff like feats (which I as a player have control over).

If you begin play at 4th level, then you begin play with 5,400 gp worth of gear (DMG p135), which can include magical gear. If reliably obtaining particular magic items is an issue, get item creation feats or better yet take Leadership for an Artificer cohort. A given city (DMG p137) should have any item that exists in the game available for purchase as long as its value is within the gp limit for a community of that size. If a town has a population of 2,001 or more, you should be able to buy a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend there.

[GilesTheCleric]

Thanks for your help, but we're not using variant rules. There's also no way to just "get equipment", so I want to focus on stuff like feats (which I as a player have control over).

3rd edition actually assumes a minimum amount of item progression as part of its monster scaling; it might be worth showing your GM PHB2 pg 217-219. There, WotC has suggested item progression lists for each PHB class, adding nothing but +stat, +x weapons/armour, +x save, and maybe one wondrous item like winged boots or boots of striding and springing. Those +x increases are what's assumed for the game. Of course, those matter most to mundanes since casters can self-buff, but having that progression would benefit others in your party if they aren't casters.

If your GM doesn't want the "christmas tree" effect, then there's homebrews that build these +x increases right into the leveling system. If you follow the "Wands of Lesser Vigour!" link my sig, you'll find I think four different brews (which I've used to model con increases, but which were formulated for all stats). The game itself has some different rates built in as well (such as the PHB2 rates, Vow of Poverty progression, and others) that can also be used as a basis.

I would echo what others have said and say that if you're not able to purchase magic items period, then picking up item creation feats will help not only your own character, but the entire group, and should help to keep everyone in the game happy, particularly if some of your party mates are fighters or barbarians/ other mundanes.

[Lubber]

I'm aware of the 5,400 GP starting money (and I can get an animated shield for that), but I might not just be able to simply and item I want. I'm not sure where you get from that a city of size X has automatically every magic item ever within its price limit.


In very large cities, some shops might specialize in magic items if their clientèle is very wealthy or includes a large number of adventurer (and such shops would have lots of magical protections to ward away thieves). Magic items might even be available in normal markets and shops occasionally. For example, a weaponsmith might have a few magic weapons for sale along with her normal wares.

Going by that, a large town (2,001+ inhabitants) won't have a dedicated magical shop but merely some random magic items and I'm sure that's how my DM handles it.

[GilesTheCleric]

Take a peek at DMG 137.
Nothing that costs more than a community’s gp limit is available for purchase in that community. Anything having a price under that limit is most likely available, whether it be mundane or magical. While exceptions are certainly possible (a boomtown near a newly discovered mine, a farming community impoverished after a prolonged drought), these exceptions are temporary; all communities will conform to the norm over time.

A large town has a cap of 3k gp; a +1 sword costs 2k+mwk sword (~305 gp). Once you get to metropolises, the cap is 100k, which means that basically anything is available.

I recall someone mentioning in a thread that the gp limit of towns is just like shrodinger's cat: until a PC goes to buy something, what the town has isn't determined. A large town would have 100 dwarven waraxes, 200 heavy flails, 5 half-plates, etc, until a player character goes to buy something or asks if it's available, at which point the max wealth of that area effectively drops by the amount of the "seen" item. Perhaps that was in a dysfunctional rules thread?

Edit: How your GM rules things is however they rule things, and that's fine. Again, since you're a full caster you probably won't be affected by the ruling, but once you hit 12th level and you're facing incorporeal/flying/etc foes, then mundanes won't be able to contribute without their magic items. This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) outlines abilities that PCs are assumed to have acquired by certain points in order to not be horribly mutilated.

[Lubber]

I read "most likely" as "DM's call", and the two quotes seem to contradict one another. I get the idea that whatever magic items the PCs desire just happen to be the ones that the local alchemist/apothecarian/blacksmith has, but I never played a campaign where everything was available at the same time.

Anyway, I'll how my DM handles that. Any suggestions for my 5,400 GP starting gear? A greatsword if I take Zarus as my god, obviously. An animated heavy shield will eat a good part of my budget. I could probably get half plate too (not focussing on DEX anyway). Anything else?

[GilesTheCleric]

The magic items described in Chapter 7 all have prices. The assumption is that, while they are rare, magic items can be bought and sold as any other commodity can be. The prices given are far beyond the reach of almost everyone, but the very rich, including mid- to high-level PCs, can buy and sell these items or even have spellcasters make them to order. In very large cities, some shops might specialize in magic items if their clientele is very wealthy or includes a large number of adventurer (and such shops would have lots of magical protections to ward away thieves). Magic items might even be available in normal markets and shops occasionally. For example, a weaponsmith might have a few magic weapons for sale along with her normal wares.

Again, if your game isn't using those rules, that's fine; just note that the playground typically assumes that everything short of artifacts is fair game for purchase when giving suggestions. If your GM is okay with at least one instance of every item occurring somewhere in the game world, then you can still use divination spells to find where it's being sold, then go and get it. If that's not possible, then divine where a 20th level caster is who can make your item for you. It might take a week or two, but the price is the same as is listed in the book.

In terms of purchasing things, a +1 weapon is essential; spending on magically enhanced armour or shields might not be worth it at level 4, though.

Some specific items:
Purple Mournlode holy symbol, MoE 141, 400gp. +1 resistance to all saves (much cheaper than a cloak)
Sanctified Armour/shield Ds 33. Armour counts as your holy symbol
Special Holy Symbol, CC 133, 350 gp. Can give some sort of really good buffs, even up to increasing DCs and CL

Otherwise, the list of necessary magic items I linked before has some good things, though most are pretty expensive. For cheaper options, look at The Complete Shopping List (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/12/complete-shopping-list.html), Bunko's Bargain Basement (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=350.0), Shax's Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-(Equipment-Handbook)), and The Utility Belt (I don't have a link for that one bookmarked; google does).

[Petrocorus]

The War domain seems to be pretty popular in general. Time looks nice for Improved Initiative, but it's a bit obscure and with heavy equipment and low DEX, my initiative is probably not going to be top anyway. Trickery looks good for some CHA-based skills. Destruction would fit my theme.
The War domain is popular mostly because of his granted power. The cleric needs the martial weapon proficiency. But it's included in the Favoured Soul class features.
Generally, among core domains, the Time, Travel and Trickery domains are considered the best, and Knowledge because of Knowledge Devotion.

Here (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/ASMoNM/domains.html) is a quite exhaustive list of domains.



So want to make a favoured soul with focus on dishing out melee damage. ... I know that a standard cleric is probably better than a favoured soul, but I like spontaneous casting and I'm not going for the best build ever. The character starts at level 4 and the campaign will probably go to level 10 or 12, so no need to plan ahead to level 20 or so.

Have you thought about the multiclassing and PrC'ing options?
Have you looked into Knight of the Raven, Ordained Champion, Prestige Paladin, WindWalker?



What I would like my character to do:

1) No healing spells

One spell of the vigor line would be useful.



2) Dish out melee damage
3) Buff himself (primarily) and others (secondarily)
4) No focus on DC-based spells so I don't have to focus on WIS, CHA and STR/CON
5) Non-core books are okay (obviously, because FS isn't core), but I don't want to go too exotic

Any hints, tips, suggestions? :smallsmile:
Favoured Soul or Spontaneous Cleric, i would advice to PrC out at 6th level or earlier; simply because the class feature at later level are not really worth it. Is 3.0 material allowed?
Have you decided the race & the alignment?

[Lubber]

The War domain is popular mostly because of his granted power. The cleric needs the martial weapon proficiency. But it's included in the Favoured Soul class features.
True, but as I read it, if my PC already has Weapon Focus, I can simply choose another feat and nothing is wasted.


Have you thought about the multiclassing and PrC'ing options?
Have you looked into Knight of the Raven, Ordained Champion, Prestige Paladin, WindWalker?

Is 3.0 material allowed?
Have to check this with my DM.


Have you decided the race & the alignment?
Humans and, if I take Zarus as my deity (see above), Lawful Neutral. I like humans both from a roleplaying perspective and because of the extra feat (and Zarus would require me to be human anyway).

As for feats, I'd take Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword) and Weapon Focus (Greatsword) from the War domain. This leaves my starting feat, my level 3 feat, my feat for being a human and the de facto bonus feat I also get at level 3 because I already have Weapon Focus and can thus take a different feat (that's how I read it).

I definitely want Power Attack. Is Quicken Spell worth it so I don't need a full round to buff myself before I can start attacking? Holy Warrior also looks interesting too.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, it's better to have buffs already up than to quickly cast buffs in the first round(s). For the most part, you don't have the level to cast quickened spells anyway - that takes level 9, for fifth-level spell slots, at least. You can have DMM:Persist online before then - it costs three feats, and seven turn attempts - and simply enjoy your 24-hour buffs. DMM:Persist is at its best when used on your round/level buffs (Divine Power). Cast your hour/level buffs once or twice per day, depending on caster level, and just tell your DM they're up at the start of combat.

A human cloistered cleric with the Planning domain (Extend Spell as bonus feat) can spend their two feats on Persistent Spell and DMM:Persist, giving them one persistent spell right at level 1, as long as they can get 7 turn attempts. The Undeath domain grants Extra Turning as a bonus feat, for +4 turn attempts, which means your total is at least 7. Getting more than that one spell is tricky, though. If your DM rules that turn attempts against other creatures - [fire]-type, spiders, snakes, lycanthropes, oozes - work, it's easier to get multiple persists. You can pick up three domains that grant those turn attempts, for 12 + 4*cha mod turn attempts per day. You'd get Persistent Spell with your third-level feat, and immediately have two persistent spells (with at least 12 charisma), or three (with at least 16 charisma).

You can also get DMM:Quicken, which costs one feat and two turn attempts per spell less, but you won't have your buffs on when ambushed.

Since favoured souls don't get domains or turn undead, they're pretty sucky for this long-term buffing. Seriously, the favoured class gets absolutely nothing at the first level. That's just stupid.

[Lubber]

As Is aid, I would like to play a Favoured Soul, so no turn undead for my PC.

[GilesTheCleric]

Turn Undead (and gods/domains) is basically the only mechanic that differentiate clerics from other casters. If you're trying to build a gish, then the clr list is arguably better than the wiz list (though maybe only as good or worse than the druid list). Your character will still have plenty of options as a favoured soul since it's casting off the clr list, but neglecting TU and domains (which you can get on a spontaneous chassis as mentioned a few times above) means that you're losing opportunities to customize your character and make it more unique. If you're opposed to using TU as a character concept, then that's fine -- those uses of TU can be used for other things, such as metamagic, or other [divine] feats like increasing your AC, increasing the power of your heals, granting your weapon enchantments, counterspelling, or any number of other things. It's just something to consider.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can still get turn undead by dipping into Sacred Exorcist (Complete Divine, requires 10 ranks in k(planes), so level 8) or Master of Radiance (Libris Mortis, requires 8 ranks in k(nature), so level 6). You don't need powerful turning, only the ability to turn at all. One level is all it takes.

A favoured soul or spontaneous cleric can't normally use quickened spells because they're spontaneous casters. So if you want to buff quickly, neither quicken nor DMM:persist will help you if you play a favoured soul, unless you prestige out.

[Petrocorus]

True, but as I read it, if my PC already has Weapon Focus, I can simply choose another feat and nothing is wasted.

AFAIK, Many DM allow this, but there's no rule about this.


I definitely want Power Attack. Is Quicken Spell worth it so I don't need a full round to buff myself before I can start attacking? Holy Warrior also looks interesting too.

Power Attack is mandatory, Quicken Spell is probably not worth the cost in many cases. Holy Warrior (with spontaneous casting) and Knowledge Devotion are two of the feats helping the cleric to be a better warrior than the Full BAB classes, along with DMM: Persist.



As for feats, I'd take Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword) and Weapon Focus (Greatsword) from the War domain. This leaves my starting feat, my level 3 feat, my feat for being a human and the de facto bonus feat I also get at level 3 because I already have Weapon Focus and can thus take a different feat (that's how I read it).


As Is aid, I would like to play a Favoured Soul, so no turn undead for my PC.
You understand this two sentences are a contradiction. If you're a Favoured Soul, you do not have Domains. You do get Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus.

Favoured Soul works well, but you'd probably need to acquire Turn Undead to persist Divine Power. Spontaneous Cloistered Cleric works too.