5.0 monk

[j_spencer93]

looking at the monk class, i am greatly disappointed to see its damage nerfed. However, i really like its monastic disciplines. The elemental one is far more appealing to me then the others though. Can a monk stand on its own in 5.0 or is this going to be a 3.5, looks good at first but your a goldfish out of water, kind of thing?

Also, a staff wielding monk, is that possible in 5.0? lol NVM...they get dex to dmg and attack with monk weapons. wow. they must have seen the barely viable builds of 3.5 and been like, lets combine these two feats used in every one of them and give it to them lol

[TrollCapAmerica]

The Monks damage is fine. You have to remember that this edition works on a different scale than before and they are good for the first time in D&D history.

[Easy_Lee]

The 5e monk is quite good. Its at-will damage is comparable to a rogue, ahead of most casters, and behind a fighter or barbarian. It is the only class which becomes proficient in all saves, also gains evasion, and can stun-lock opponents with stunning strike vs their CON save, all three of which make the monk very good at dealing with casters. The monk's AC scales with attributes up to 20, a very good number.

Using a quarterstaff is not only possible, but ideal until unarmed strike die reaches a d8. This produces a 1d8 attack plus 1d4 bonus attack using DEX at level 1, a unique capability which scales with unarmed damage die.

The archetypes are quite good. A shadow monk may use ki to cast silence, pass without trace, and so on up to 10 times per short rest at level 20; even a warlock is limited to fewer spells per short rest, invocations notwithstanding. Elemental monks gain a wide variety of spell-like abilities which, unlike the battle master's short rest maneuvers, actually get better as one levels. Open hand monks have versatile, balanced power, can go into the astral plane, and can use quivering palm to straight kill targets.

Only bad thing to be said about the monk is that they have few ways of dealing with high HP, high CON, heavy-hitting targets like giants. That said, they can easily run away from such foes with their grest speed and ascendant step.

In short, I think monks are quite good this edition.

[j_spencer93]

Well idk, maybe its just the d4 that bothers me. Idk. I am thinking a quarterstaff wielding monk would be cool. Actually thinking it will be pretty badass.

[SharkForce]

Well idk, maybe its just the d4 that bothers me. Idk. I am thinking a quarterstaff wielding monk would be cool. Actually thinking it will be pretty badass.

that's a d4 on their bonus action attack, and it even scales. with their regular attack, they can easily deal 1d8 from first level.

compared to the bonus attack that is built into any other class (ie no bonus attack at all), d4 + attribute modifier sounds pretty good to me.

[MrStabby]

Well don't even be put off by the d4. Remember it is d4+str or d4+dex. It is pretty easy to begin with +3 or +4 from this. This extra bonus damage get applied to all of the additional attacks you might get through flurry of blows and martial arts. Monks are pretty ok for damage.

[TrollCapAmerica]

The problems I see with the Monkey are archetype dependant.

Open hand is the best pure combat option but has no range/utility. If you can't run up to an enemy and boot them to death your gonna have a bad time

Shadow gets to be a Ninja which is awesome and flipping out and killing people is awesome.it just lacks combat capabilities beyond base monk stuff once your done flipping out and killing people

Being a Bender is cool and has the only real ranged option but it drains ki fast you only get4 powers in a lifetime and several of them are traps. Water Whip should be the standard for their abilities not far and away the best one

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Well it doesn't remain a d4 for very long, and it's still beating out dual-weilding since the bonus martial attack gets the ability mod. As in, getting a 1d4+3 bonus attack is better than the 1d6 you'd get from an off-hand shortsword.
And unless I'm mistaken, you can use the quarterstaff 2-handed for 1d8+DEX and still get the unarmed bonus attack (Kung Fu Kicks yo).

Edit: Ninja'd

[j_spencer93]

Really thinking i want to run one of these now lol. Seriously, i am really like the 5.0 classes.
The "bender" as someone called it really speaks to me. I like its abilities. Water Whip is cool too although i was looking at some air focused ones.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Really thinking i want to run one of these now lol. Seriously, i am really like the 5.0 classes.
The "bender" as someone called it really speaks to me. I like its abilities. Water Whip is cool too although i was looking at some air focused ones.

The Flight ability is another of the dangers good ones and the air blast one would also be nice if it was activated like Water Whip

Really a few more well thought out abilities would help the archetype tremendously

[SharkForce]

The problems I see with the Monkey are archetype dependant.

Open hand is the best pure combat option but has no range/utility. If you can't run up to an enemy and boot them to death your gonna have a bad time

Shadow gets to be a Ninja which is awesome and flipping out and killing people is awesome.it just lacks combat capabilities beyond base monk stuff once your done flipping out and killing people

Being a Bender is cool and has the only real ranged option but it drains ki fast you only get4 powers in a lifetime and several of them are traps. Water Whip should be the standard for their abilities not far and away the best one

ummm... in what way are darkness and silence not useful combat abilities? heck, in the right situation, darkvision is also an amazing combat ability. teleportation that grants advantage on your next attack, and the ability to use your reaction to hit an enemy that someone else hit... these sound like combat abilities to me as well.

[j_spencer93]

ummm... in what way are darkness and silence not useful combat abilities? heck, in the right situation, darkvision is also an amazing combat ability. teleportation that grants advantage on your next attack, and the ability to use your reaction to hit an enemy that someone else hit... these sound like combat abilities to me as well.

I agree those actually are nice. Although...they don't really make up a ninja to me. A think a ninja class is needed, as well as a samurai but still.

[j_spencer93]

That air blast one seems really good, as well as flight. Flight was a big thing for 3.5

[Shining Wrath]

The 5e monk is quite good. Its at-will damage is comparable to a rogue, ahead of most casters, and behind a fighter or barbarian. It is the only class which becomes proficient in all saves, also gains evasion, and can stun-lock opponents with stunning strike vs their CON save, all three of which make the monk very good at dealing with casters. The monk's AC scales with attributes up to 20, a very good number.

Using a quarterstaff is not only possible, but ideal until unarmed strike die reaches a d8. This produces a 1d8 attack plus 1d4 bonus attack using DEX at level 1, a unique capability which scales with unarmed damage die.

The archetypes are quite good. A shadow monk may use ki to cast silence, pass without trace, and so on up to 10 times per short rest at level 20; even a warlock is limited to fewer spells per short rest, invocations notwithstanding. Elemental monks gain a wide variety of spell-like abilities which, unlike the battle master's short rest maneuvers, actually get better as one levels. Open hand monks have versatile, balanced power, can go into the astral plane, and can use quivering palm to straight kill targets.

Only bad thing to be said about the monk is that they have few ways of dealing with high HP, high CON, heavy-hitting targets like giants. That said, they can easily run away from such foes with their grest speed and ascendant step.

In short, I think monks are quite good this edition.

The monk is, at last, the anti-mage nightmare it was intended to be.

[Ardantis]

Bender seems caught between ranged and melee. I love the ninja, and boilerplate open hand is cool. Effective, niche, and not ridiculous.

[j_spencer93]

Bender seems caught between ranged and melee. I love the ninja, and boilerplate open hand is cool. Effective, niche, and not ridiculous.

honestly i like all three of them.

[j_spencer93]

So with a human monk, using its first feat for polearm mastery, when you attack you get your polearm, + unarmed strike + other side of polearm for 3 attacks?

Nope, nvm, missed bonus action being mentioned in the feat.

[TrollCapAmerica]

ummm... in what way are darkness and silence not useful combat abilities? heck, in the right situation, darkvision is also an amazing combat ability. teleportation that grants advantage on your next attack, and the ability to use your reaction to hit an enemy that someone else hit... these sound like combat abilities to me as well.

I meant like straight forward combat ie the OH Monk can flurry like mad while tripping when things become a slugfest while the Ninjas Monk takes more finesse

Really I love them all I'm just comparing

[Easy_Lee]

Open hand's a generalist, shadow's a sneaky monk, elemental's a monk with spells and options.

[j_spencer93]

What would be a good feat for a 1st level monk??? I was thinking of maybe defensive duelist, or duel wielder.

[Chronos]

We already have a samurai class, too. It's on page 70 of the PHB.

j_spencer93, dual wielder would be nearly useless on a monk. You already have a means of attacking as a bonus action, so dual wielding wouldn't give you anything you didn't already have. Even assuming you picked up rapier proficiency somehow, dual wielding would only let you do 2d8+dex damage per round, compared to the 1d8+1d4+2*dex you can do without any feats. Assuming a 14 or 15 dex, they're the same damage, and if you've got a 16, dual wielding actually decreases your damage.

A better choice might be mobility, to let you get onto the front lines, attack, and then get back off the front lines. Your damage output is higher than a fighter's, and you have more options, but you're also squishier.

[j_spencer93]

Open hand's a generalist, shadow's a sneaky monk, elemental's a monk with spells and options.

good way to classify them.

[holygroundj]

honestly, Mobile is pretty neat for a monk. I'd stay away from Dual Wielder at all costs, as basically it's just +1 AC for you. You already have a bonus action attack, and spending a Ki turns it into two attacks.

Outside of spells, Stunning strike is hands down the best class ability in the game. If it lands, you have just granted advantage to everyone and locked down a mob.

And at level 1, monks can do 1d8+dex, 1d4+dex every round, rivaling a polearm master human fighter.

[Submortimer]

The 5e monk is quite good. Its at-will damage is comparable to a rogue, ahead of most casters, and behind a fighter or barbarian. It is the only class which becomes proficient in all saves, also gains evasion, and can stun-lock opponents with stunning strike vs their CON save, all three of which make the monk very good at dealing with casters. The monk's AC scales with attributes up to 20, a very good number.

Using a quarterstaff is not only possible, but ideal until unarmed strike die reaches a d8. This produces a 1d8 attack plus 1d4 bonus attack using DEX at level 1, a unique capability which scales with unarmed damage die.

The archetypes are quite good. A shadow monk may use ki to cast silence, pass without trace, and so on up to 10 times per short rest at level 20; even a warlock is limited to fewer spells per short rest, invocations notwithstanding. Elemental monks gain a wide variety of spell-like abilities which, unlike the battle master's short rest maneuvers, actually get better as one levels. Open hand monks have versatile, balanced power, can go into the astral plane, and can use quivering palm to straight kill targets.

Only bad thing to be said about the monk is that they have few ways of dealing with high HP, high CON, heavy-hitting targets like giants. That said, they can easily run away from such foes with their grest speed and ascendant step.

In short, I think monks are quite good this edition.

Not only that, but they are FANTASTIC to Multiclass with. Despite generally needing Dex and Wis, You can get away with having a lower wisdom than you could in 3.0/3.5/PF.

- Go all in on Dex, take three levels of assassin rogue, mix that with shadow ninja, and you're all set to ninja it up.
- Forget about wisdom, go charisma and Multiclass bladelock. I have one sentance for you: Your unarmed Strike can be your pact weapon. Seriously though, I have a pretty nice 12 Bladelock/8 Shadow Monk build that almost perfectly replicates Akuma from Street Fighter.
- Mix in some druid, Flurry of Blows as a bear.
- Forget Dex, go Str and Rage as a barbarian Monk. Punch through the walls. Use a shield and be Captain America, but REALLY angry.

[j_spencer93]

We already have a samurai class, too. It's on page 70 of the PHB.

j_spencer93, dual wielder would be nearly useless on a monk. You already have a means of attacking as a bonus action, so dual wielding wouldn't give you anything you didn't already have. Even assuming you picked up rapier proficiency somehow, dual wielding would only let you do 2d8+dex damage per round, compared to the 1d8+1d4+2*dex you can do without any feats. Assuming a 14 or 15 dex, they're the same damage, and if you've got a 16, dual wielding actually decreases your damage.

A better choice might be mobility, to let you get onto the front lines, attack, and then get back off the front lines. Your damage output is higher than a fighter's, and you have more options, but you're also squishier.

THANK YOU lol seriously, idk how i missed mobility but it works a hell of a lot better.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

What would be a good feat for a 1st level monk??? I was thinking of maybe defensive duelist, or duel wielder.
Dual wielder doesn't help a monk as much as others, since rapiers and longswords aren't considered monk weapons.
Alert, Charger, Grappler, Lucky, Mage Slayer, Magic Initiate, Mobile, Sentinel and Tough all seem like they would be useful to a monk.

[j_spencer93]

You guys are all helping alot. Warlock was actually something i was looking at but idk yet.

[RedMage125]

I'm glad you've had your mind changed on the monk's damage.

I DM a game (now 5th level) where one of the players is a monk, his damage output is quite good, I assure you.

In my opinion, Elemental Monk needs more support. The player in my group is Open Hand, and having riders onto all of his FoB attacks are awesome.

I second Mobility as a good monk feat. Alert is good for anyone (especially DEX-based classes).

Apart from those, I would start taking the Ability Score increases, though. A DEX and a WIS of 20 will make you all the BA monk that you can be.

[Easy_Lee]

What would be a good feat for a 1st level monk??? I was thinking of maybe defensive duelist, or duel wielder.

As the others said, dual wielder is redundant on a monk (and is inferior to +2 DEX even in the best cases).

Defensive duelist doesn't actually work unless you keep a shortsword or similar in your offhand at all times, since the monk feature doesn't actually make monk weapons "finesse." Most DMs would probably be okay with it, though, and slapping a sword away with your hand is a cool image.

In my opinion, the overall best feats for a monk are sentinel, mage slayer, mobile, and observant / athlete when you need a +1. Monks, particularly open hand, are very good at defending their party members; sentinel enhances that. Mage slayer, particularly on a shadow monk with their superior mobility, is a very effective anti-caster tool and works well with their innate reaction-attack feature (I forgot the name). Mobile us just a generally useful feat, particularly on a monk who gets lots of attacks and runs fast anyway.

That said, stats are king for monks. Get your stats straight first, before worrying about anything else.

[calebrus]

The Flight ability is another of the dangers good ones and the air blast one would also be nice if it was activated like Water Whip

This has been confirmed to be a mistake. Water Whip was intended to be an Action, not a Bonus Action. Since it was confirmed as such, once we get some errata it will probably be changed.
So the one you called far and away the best was not intended to be so.

That said, as others have stated, Monks are more than fine in 5e, they're flat out amazing at low levels, and continue to remain good as you level.

[TrollCapAmerica]

This has been confirmed to be a mistake. Water Whip was intended to be an Action, not a Bonus Action. Since it was confirmed as such, once we get some errata it will probably be changed.
So the one you called far and away the best was not intended to be so.

That said, as others have stated, Monks are more than fine in 5e, they're flat out amazing at low levels, and continue to remain good as you level.

Wizards OP? Better nerf Irelia...I mean element Monks

[Chronos]

The problem I have with elemental monks is the same problem I have with eldritch knights: They can blast or they can hit things, but they have to choose one or the other, and whichever one you choose, you could have done it better by choosing something else.

[ad_hoc]

Yeah, the problem with Elemental Monks is that they gain options, not power.

The Monk already has things to do with their Ki. And those things are in addition to their regular actions. Elemental powers for the most part replace your combat action rather than adding to it.

Their 6th level ability is to spend half of their Ki to either cast Hold Person or Shatter, 2nd level spells.

The 6th level ability for Way of Shadow allows you to make a 60ft teleport as a bonus action then get advantage on your next attack. This doesn't cost any Ki, you just need shadows.

The 6th level ability for Open Hand gives you a once/day self heal as an action. This does not cost any Ki.

Way of Shadow gets 4 2nd level spells at level 3 that cost 2 Ki each and can be used prior to combat to save actions. Elemental gets their 2nd level spells at 6th level and they cost 3 Ki each.

I haven't seen an Elemental Monk in action but they just look bad.

[Safety Sword]

I haven't seen an Elemental Monk in action but they just look bad.

It's tradition. But they couldn't break the whole class at once this time :)

[j_spencer93]

I thought the elemental monks looks cool.

[calebrus]

Wizards OP? Better nerf Irelia...I mean element Monks

Changing exact wording to more closely correspond to what was intended in the first place is not a Nerf.
That's called a Fix.
So if that errata occurs (as I expect it probably will eventually), that errata will be a Fix, not a Nerf.

[ChubbyRain]

The problem I have with elemental monks is the same problem I have with eldritch knights: They can blast or they can hit things, but they have to choose one or the other, and whichever one you choose, you could have done it better by choosing something else.

Yeah, this is my issue too.

Having elemental spells that changed their basic abilities in some way would have been awesome.

Spit Ball so don't freak out over ki consumption or duration. Totally haven't looked that per just throwing stuff out there.

Water Whip (3 ki)
Bonus Action
Water surrounds your body and weapons. Until the end of your next turn, when you use an unarmed attack or monk weapon, you may attack a creature out to 20'. The attack deal bludgeoning damage.

Icy Soul (1 ki)
When you use water whip you may freeze the water as it hits your target. You may deal piercing or cold dage instead of bludgeoning.

Not perfect but what it does is allows you to use your magic (ki) in conjuncture with your martial abilities. I think there is a ki ability that let's you deal fire damage... But as I recall it kinda sucked.

[Dralnu]

I really want to like elemental monk because I always wanted to play an avatar character. Unfortunately, I find their spell selection crummy and severely limited on how many you get and how quickly it spends ki points.

It made me desperately miss the swordsage of 3.5 . Man, I loved playing that so much.

Thankfully, the monk base class is strong enough that elemental monk is still strong, but I find the other two archetypes much more appealing crunch-wise.

[j_spencer93]

I must be missing something. I actually thought it was better then open hand....

[ad_hoc]

Water Whip (3 ki)
Bonus Action
Water surrounds your body and weapons. Until the end of your next turn, when you use an unarmed attack or monk weapon, you may attack a creature out to 20'. The attack deal bludgeoning damage.

Icy Soul (1 ki)
When you use water whip you may freeze the water as it hits your target. You may deal piercing or cold dage instead of bludgeoning.


I would do something like this:

Water Whip (2 ki)
Bonus Action. Concentration. 1 min.
Action to do a 20' unarmed attack. Deal an extra 1d6 damage.

Icy Soul
6th level
When using Water Whip instead deal 2d6 extra cold damage. Also inflict a rider of some kind like halving their speed on their next turn.

It could probably even be stronger than that and still be fine. The idea, like you said, is to add to their power, not offer them something to do instead of their other powers.


I must be missing something. I actually thought it was better then open hand....

Why?

Open Hand makes your Ki use stronger and gives you new powers that don't consume your Ki so you can keep using your base powers.

If you use your Elemental powers then you aren't using your Monk powers. That is not good.

[j_spencer93]

Hmm i guess that is true. Still i really like all three, just wanting elemental ones for this character i am working on.

[Chronos]

If you want to be a blaster, it's simpler and more effective to be a sorcerer. If you want to be a sneaky blaster, then be a sorcerer, and pick up Stealth from a background. If you want to be a sneaky blaster who calls herself a monk, then be a sorcerer, pick up Stealth from a background, and call yourself a monk.

[MadBear]

Thematically I always thought an affinity recharge ability would be cool
Elemental Affinity lvl 5

You have resistance to the element of your choice

Greater Elemental Affinity lvl 9

When you take damage from chosen element, regain 1 point of ki for every 5 damage resisted


This would be helpful because it would allow the most ki starved monk a means of regaining ki thematically. The only issue with this would be that people could break it by having wizards/sorcerers shoot their ally to regain ki. (then again they would take damage.)

[ChubbyRain]

I would do something like this:

Water Whip (2 ki)
Bonus Action. Concentration. 1 min.
Action to do a 20' unarmed attack. Deal an extra 1d6 damage.

Icy Soul
6th level
When using Water Whip instead deal 2d6 extra cold damage. Also inflict a rider of some kind like halving their speed on their next turn.

It could probably even be stronger than that and still be fine. The idea, like you said, is to add to their power, not offer them something to do instead of their other powers.


However I probably wouldn't give them concentration. There are a lot of nice things for other classes that don't have concentration, spiritual weapon comes to mind... Sooo perhaps something like this.

Base Level: 1 minute
For each additional ki it gives you an additional minute of use. You may even fuel this later with additional ki if you like. This would make the monk very unique as most effects must be decided on at the point of casting but ki could be added on later.

So a base ability may be (Bonus Action) Water Whip 2 ki for 1 minute duration. After 30 seconds another wave of baddies appear. You use your (Bonus Action) to put in another 1 ki so that the ability lasts for an additional minute.

Make all base abilities like Water Whip be bonus actions (so they compete with FoB and the like) but yeah make rider abilities specific to each elemental ability you make.

Icy Soul: Changes Water Whip to Cold Damage + Rider

Fire Gleam: Changes Water Whip to fire damage (boiling water) + rider effect (mini fog cloud due to the steam you can make?)

Heaven's Conduit: Lightning Water Whip + rider.

Eastern Gale: Thunder Damage + Push Back or to the Side rider if some sort.

[Vortenger]

The Monks damage is fine. You have to remember that this edition works on a different scale than before and they are good for the first time in D&D history.

Um, monks were badass in 4e.

@ Chronos: Wouldn't you need Tavern Brawler to fit the theme? You can call yourself a monk all you like, but unarmed strike is sort of the defining feature.

[ChubbyRain]

Um, monks were badass in 4e.


Hell yes they were, so many people overlook all the good 4e brought us just because they don't like something about the edition.

The monk in 4e was the most monk we have ever got to monk in d&d and that includes comparing it to 5e monk and the 3e swordsage. Though I do still rank swordsage up with the 5e monk as the swordsage is pretty much the grandaddy of all good single class monks. Actually I'm pretty sure there wasn't a monk class before the swordsage *decided to forget all about pre-swordsage monks*

[Mara]

I think you are all missing that elemental monks get a prestidigitation-like effect. Best monk.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Um, monks were badass in 4e.
.

I'll try not to spew Hasbro marketing department edition hate

Even if real D&D called itself Pathfinder for a little while....

Dang it I really tried there

[ChubbyRain]

I'll try not to spew Hasbro marketing department edition hate

Even if real D&D called itself Pathfinder for a little while....

Dang it I really tried there

If paizo actually did anything with the core rules or classes that fixed the issues of 3e I wouldn't sound like such a hasbro-fanboy.

Pathfinder is "real DND" like 13th age is "real DND". It isn't, just a different company/people that has a game based on D&D. Not that there is anything wrong with that but at least 13th age put some effort I to making their game and it doesn't end up a carbon copy of someone else's work.

[SharkForce]

Um, monks were badass in 4e.

@ Chronos: Wouldn't you need Tavern Brawler to fit the theme? You can call yourself a monk all you like, but unarmed strike is sort of the defining feature.

i wouldn't say unarmed strike is the defining feature for all monks. or rather, it shouldn't be. there are plenty of what i would consider monks in movies, video games, etc, who, while *capable* of making a competent unarmed strike, actually focus on using a different weapon, ranging from swords and spears to darts/thrown objects, fans, various chain or rope-based weapons, etc.

now, unfortunately, as written, monks in D&D are kinda stuck with an unarmed focus (their bonus attacks need to be made unarmed. also open hand has to use unarmed for some of their special attacks, but that's fine because they're open hand, and are supposed to be the unarmed focused monks).

that said, it's a fairly simple fix. let them make their bonus attacks with monk weapons, but limit the damage as their quick strike isn't a conventional attack, and suddenly you can make a monk that uses whatever (monk) weapon you like.

but anyways, back to the main point, monks don't have to be weapon-focused.

[Chronos]

Quoth Vortenger:

@ Chronos: Wouldn't you need Tavern Brawler to fit the theme? You can call yourself a monk all you like, but unarmed strike is sort of the defining feature.
You would if you're planning on punching things. But if you're blasting, you're not punching anyway.

[ChubbyRain]

i wouldn't say unarmed strike is the defining feature for all monks. or rather, it shouldn't be. there are plenty of what i would consider monks in movies, video games, etc, who, while *capable* of making a competent unarmed strike, actually focus on using a different weapon, ranging from swords and spears to darts/thrown objects, fans, various chain or rope-based weapons, etc.

now, unfortunately, as written, monks in D&D are kinda stuck with an unarmed focus (their bonus attacks need to be made unarmed. also open hand has to use unarmed for some of their special attacks, but that's fine because they're open hand, and are supposed to be the unarmed focused monks).

that said, it's a fairly simple fix. let them make their bonus attacks with monk weapons, but limit the damage as their quick strike isn't a conventional attack, and suddenly you can make a monk that uses whatever (monk) weapon you like.

but anyways, back to the main point, monks don't have to be weapon-focused.

Though I hate the Anime/Manga I would love to see a Monk with a black hole in his hand.

It does make me sad what D&D did to monks.

[ad_hoc]

I think you are all missing that elemental monks get a prestidigitation-like effect. Best monk.

That even comes at a cost. Best to trade it out as early as you can for something better.

Shadow monk gets a better cantrip along with 4 2nd level spells at 3rd level.

[Chronos]

And those spells are cheaper than the elementalist's spells of the same level, and they're a lot more potent. Seriously, Pass Without Trace is amazing.

[j_spencer93]

Please no one mention 4.e...i want that nightmare to just go away. lol
Seriously though, I was introduced to D&D with 4th edition and, to put it nicely, i almost quit D&D. Didn't see why it was so great until we started picking up 3.5

[MrStabby]

Please no one mention 4.e...i want that nightmare to just go away. lol
Seriously though, I was introduced to D&D with 4th edition and, to put it nicely, i almost quit D&D. Didn't see why it was so great until we started picking up 3.5

3.5 began pretty well but suffered a lot from bloat. 5th edition is sometimes known as the "Sorry we released 4th edition" edition. Still, 4th ed seems to have had a few fans. I would say that reactions round there to it were that most people hated it and stuck with third but a few people loved it. By loved it I mean loved in a deeply creepy and disturbing evangelical way and took great pleasure in explaining to people who didn't care why it fixed so many different things... A lot of people cornered in the backs of rooms looking uncomfortable whilst an evangelist preached in their face is not something I want to have to see again.

[SharkForce]

*shrug* to be fair, i consider 4th edition D&D to be a good game.

it just didn't feel like D&D to me. i can't argue that it fixed a lot of things that were problems. i can only disagree that the cost in other areas was worth it.

so, for what it's worth, i'm inclined to agree with statements like "4th edition is the most balanced edition of D&D" (bearing in mind that i consider it D&D in name only), or even "4th edition fixed a lot of the problems that existed in 3.x", because they're pretty much true.

it was a well-made game. but it was also a well-made game that i didn't particularly like.

in any event, 5th edition monks are in a pretty good place.

[j_spencer93]

*shrug* to be fair, i consider 4th edition D&D to be a good game.

it just didn't feel like D&D to me. i can't argue that it fixed a lot of things that were problems. i can only disagree that the cost in other areas was worth it.

so, for what it's worth, i'm inclined to agree with statements like "4th edition is the most balanced edition of D&D" (bearing in mind that i consider it D&D in name only), or even "4th edition fixed a lot of the problems that existed in 3.x", because they're pretty much true.

it was a well-made game. but it was also a well-made game that i didn't particularly like.

in any event, 5th edition monks are in a pretty good place.

Well atleast we are back on track now. Honestly though, my problem with 4.0 is strange. As someone who is actually going to college to design games, it works in concept and should have at least been a good game. however, playing it left a really bad taste. I don't know what it was really either.

[j_spencer93]

I would really like to see more base classes. Or atleast "paths" or whatever they are called. Hexblade was a fav in 3.5 but no real analogue to it in 5.0. Soulknife either. Incarnum classes. ToB or ToM classes. Really if you think about it the tomes could simply have 1 class made after them with a different path to cover prestige classes or the other base classes presented originally alongside them.

[TrollCapAmerica]

I'm hoping that someday we get an UA that buffs up the couple of weaker archetypes like Element monks Bladelocks Berserker and Champion

[j_spencer93]

liked expanded options? that would be nice.

[Strill]

Yeah, this is my issue too.

Having elemental spells that changed their basic abilities in some way would have been awesome.

Spit Ball so don't freak out over ki consumption or duration. Totally haven't looked that per just throwing stuff out there.

Water Whip (3 ki)
Bonus Action
Water surrounds your body and weapons. Until the end of your next turn, when you use an unarmed attack or monk weapon, you may attack a creature out to 20'. The attack deal bludgeoning damage.This is crap. Monks already have the best mobility in the game, and you're sacrificing an attack and THREE KI and a bonus action for even more effective mobility? That's an absolutely terrible trade! You could've used Stunning Strike three times for how much this costs, which would've been way, way, way better.

Considering how few abilities the elemental monk gets, I don't see any reason why this should cost anything. Just make it passive and always on. Even if it were passive I'd still rate it as mediocre, which probably just goes to show how bad the archetype is.


Whenever you consider making a monk ability, ask yourself "is this better than using Stunning Strike x times? The answer for pretty much all the elemental monk abilities is "no."

[Giant2005]

You could've used Stunning Strike three times for how much this costs, which would've been way, way, way better.

This here is pretty much why the Elemental Monk is terrible mechanically. It might give you more options but all of those options are either too weak or too expensive to justify using instead of the Monk's default abilities.

[Chronos]

To be fair, at high levels, eventually you're going to have enough ki to use Stunning Strike basically whenever it matters. At that point, you're looking to use Stunning Strike and some other ki-spender, and you have to compare your option to the second-best ki-spender available.

[SharkForce]

To be fair, at high levels, eventually you're going to have enough ki to use Stunning Strike basically whenever it matters. At that point, you're looking to use Stunning Strike and some other ki-spender, and you have to compare your option to the second-best ki-spender available.

what, you mean like flurry of blows every round for an extra bonus attack?

honestly, with only the perfectly good default monk abilities you can spend 5 ki per round as early as level 5 (4 per round at level 1-4) (1 to flurry, 1 per attack to use stunning strike). that's potentially as few as 4 rounds of combat for a level 20 monk. and that assumes you for some reason don't want to be invisible and have damage resistance against basically everything ever at that level.

you have to beat both the action cost and the effectiveness cost of stunning targets.

[ad_hoc]

you have to beat both the action cost and the effectiveness cost of stunning targets.

Or do something different.

Open Hand is the best combat Monk.

Shadow gives the Monk a lot of exploration tools.

I see a reason for both to exist.

I can't see the reason for the Elemental Monk to exist. (I mean, that's fine. Most of the classes and subclasses are good in 5e. I am happy with 2 good Monk ones)

Shape the Flowing River, one of their cool powers is awkward and poorly thought out. "You can't shape the ice to trap or injure a creature in the area." I am having trouble envisioning what that limitation looks like.

[Safety Sword]

Or do something different.

Open Hand is the best combat Monk.

Shadow gives the Monk a lot of exploration tools.

I see a reason for both to exist.

I can't see the reason for the Elemental Monk to exist. (I mean, that's fine. Most of the classes and subclasses are good in 5e. I am happy with 2 good Monk ones)

Shape the Flowing River, one of their cool powers is awkward and poorly thought out. "You can't shape the ice to trap or injure a creature in the area." I am having trouble envisioning what that limitation looks like.

So you can set your hands on fire and punch bad guys. That is reason enough! Yeah the mechanics can be a bit wobbly with Elemental Monks, but they are still viable and can be fun. Not everything has to be about getting maximum damage or having the same damage as other classes/archetypes.

Sometimes it exists because it's cool. End of story.

[j_spencer93]

Personally i like the elemental monk

[Malifice]

The Monks damage is fine. You have to remember that this edition works on a different scale than before and they are good for the first time in D&D history.

Mystics (Monks) in BXCMI were pretty awesome. As were Monks in AD&D when used with the rules for martial arts in OA.

But yeah; the 5th edition Monk is a totally viable class. Competitive at all levels.

[ad_hoc]

So you can set your hands on fire and punch bad guys. That is reason enough! Yeah the mechanics can be a bit wobbly with Elemental Monks, but they are still viable and can be fun. Not everything has to be about getting maximum damage or having the same damage as other classes/archetypes.

Sometimes it exists because it's cool. End of story.

I'm saying I don't find it cool because the mechanics don't work.

It is unfair to say that I only like something that does maximum damage because I don't like something that I believe to be poorly designed.

At some point you would probably agree with me. If it cost 3 Ki to light their hands on fire to do 1 extra damage it would still have the same flavour.

Would you still like it?

What if it did not extra damage, it only counted as being fire damage. Would you still like it?

There is a point where the mechanics have to represent the flavour.

In this case we have different opinions on where that is. That doesn't mean that all I care about is damage.

[Safety Sword]

I'm saying I don't find it cool because the mechanics don't work.

It is unfair to say that I only like something that does maximum damage because I don't like something that I believe to be poorly designed.

At some point you would probably agree with me. If it cost 3 Ki to light their hands on fire to do 1 extra damage it would still have the same flavour.

Would you still like it?

What if it did not extra damage, it only counted as being fire damage. Would you still like it?

There is a point where the mechanics have to represent the flavour.

In this case we have different opinions on where that is. That doesn't mean that all I care about is damage.

I didn't mean to suggest that this is the only thing you care about. I am suggesting that the Elemental Monk is not that far behind the other archetypes that it is something to be concerned about.

Again, if it was clearly much worse or awesome to the point that you'd always take it, then it would be a problem. I just don't think we're there yet.

So you don't stun as often so you can do elemental damage. So what? Parties without monks seem to deal with that.

As everything in this game it's a matter of opinion and perspective. I played a Monk in 3.5E and that was a terrible experience because the whole class and game rules were against what you were trying to do. In 5E monks are just as effective as other martial types and they're not outclassed by spell casters in every facet of the game. I think it's still a pretty good place.

[odigity]

what, you mean like flurry of blows every round for an extra bonus attack?

honestly, with only the perfectly good default monk abilities you can spend 5 ki per round as early as level 5 (4 per round at level 1-4) (1 to flurry, 1 per attack to use stunning strike). that's potentially as few as 4 rounds of combat for a level 20 monk. and that assumes you for some reason don't want to be invisible and have damage resistance against basically everything ever at that level.

you have to beat both the action cost and the effectiveness cost of stunning targets.

This.

I am constantly starved for Ki, and I don't think that will change for a while. Granted, I'm still only level 7, but the scenario describe above is very realistic. Just today, my party got surprised by three Banshees in a small room who started wailing (which dropped our tank to 0 on the first wail). We probably wouldn't have surived the other two wailing, so I started running back and forth between them each round with flurry of blows and stunning strike to keep them both completely locked down until they were dead. I ran out of Ki on the second round. (Luckily that was all we needed.)

[ad_hoc]

I didn't mean to suggest that this is the only thing you care about. I am suggesting that the Elemental Monk is not that far behind the other archetypes that it is something to be concerned about.

Again, if it was clearly much worse or awesome to the point that you'd always take it, then it would be a problem. I just don't think we're there yet.

So you don't stun as often so you can do elemental damage. So what? Parties without monks seem to deal with that.

As everything in this game it's a matter of opinion and perspective. I played a Monk in 3.5E and that was a terrible experience because the whole class and game rules were against what you were trying to do. In 5E monks are just as effective as other martial types and they're not outclassed by spell casters in every facet of the game. I think it's still a pretty good place.

Thanks for clarifying.

Where we disagree then is that I think it is that far behind.

At level 6 you can do 4 attacks with 2 stunning strikes and 2 shoves as riders in 1 turn you can do 4d10 damage to 1 creature or 3d8 in an AoE (something a full caster can do at level 3).

Both of those options cost 3 Ki, half of your pool.

It's not just the Ki you are giving up. You are giving up your extra attack and martial arts bonuses to do it (for that turn). You will also likely get less use out of your increased movement.

I just think it is unfortunate that the Elemental Monk's powers are not only overpriced, they also don't work with the base Monk's powers. They work instead of them.

They're not all bad of course. I like the idea of Shape the Flowing River, I just think it is clumsily written and wish there more like it. Stoneskin is good, making you tough. Though you are casting it instead of being a special ability so it takes your concentration. You don't have con save proficiency until 14th level. The abilities should at least not require concentration.

[Safety Sword]

Thanks for clarifying.

Where we disagree then is that I think it is that far behind.

At level 6 you can do 4 attacks with 2 stunning strikes and 2 shoves as riders in 1 turn you can do 4d10 damage to 1 creature or 3d8 in an AoE (something a full caster can do at level 3).

Both of those options cost 3 Ki, half of your pool.

It's not just the Ki you are giving up. You are giving up your extra attack and martial arts bonuses to do it (for that turn). You will also likely get less use out of your increased movement.

I just think it is unfortunate that the Elemental Monk's powers are not only overpriced, they also don't work with the base Monk's powers. They work instead of them.

They're not all bad of course. I like the idea of Shape the Flowing River, I just think it is clumsily written and wish there more like it. Stoneskin is good, making you tough. Though you are casting it instead of being a special ability so it takes your concentration. You don't have con save proficiency until 14th level. The abilities should at least not require concentration.

AoE damage is not usually a martial character schtick, so I don't think that it's all that unreasonable. Otherwise you're doing nothing but AoE because it's too cheap a resource cost.

I think an AoE stunning fireball is a bit much? Whilst I agree that you're using your elemental powers instead of martial arts, it's great that you have that choice.

Other monks don't have that option. Fighters don't have that option unless they're Eldritch Knights. Rogues can't unless they're Arcane Tricksters. Oh look, 1 out of 3 archetypes that changes the way you play by having spells. Seems consistent ;)

[ChubbyRain]

This is crap. Monks already have the best mobility in the game, and you're sacrificing an attack and THREE KI and a bonus action for even more effective mobility? That's an absolutely terrible trade! You could've used Stunning Strike three times for how much this costs, which would've been way, way, way better.

Considering how few abilities the elemental monk gets, I don't see any reason why this should cost anything. Just make it passive and always on. Even if it were passive I'd still rate it as mediocre, which probably just goes to show how bad the archetype is.


Whenever you consider making a monk ability, ask yourself "is this better than using Stunning Strike x times? The answer for pretty much all the elemental monk abilities is "no."

First off, I'm not sure if you saw that I said it was a spitball. It was a spur of the moment example of what could be made. No need to get hostile it isn't like it put that much time into making that specific post. It isn't like I'm getting paid to print a book and then half ass it.

With what I wrote you aren't sacrificing anything. You still get to use your normal monk abilities at range. It just cost you a bonus action to set up and then lasts whatever duration would be balanced.

It however does need to cost something. Nothing is free in D&D unless it sucks. Look at the champion fighter and how mundanely boring they are for example. Even sneak attack costs something during game play.

But since it was a spitball idea, you could totally say that there are multiple abilities that are activated with a Bonus Action (costs ki) but lasts for 8 hours or whatever. You can have only one elemental ability at a time. Then have multiple smaller abilities that alter that one.

With my spitball take on Water Whip you could stun a creature from 20' away, it damn well better cost some ki to activate.

[silveralen]

Personally i like the elemental monk

I like them thematically, they just suffer mechanically. The recent elemental evil player guide which should have at least helped ignored them.

There are some nice points. Water whip is, as printed, fairly nice, though word from on high is it shouldn't be a bonus action meaning it becomes meh once errata hits. You can eventually fly but monk is one of the few characters for whom that isn't as big a deal, he can already run up vertical walls. Fireball comes too late to be that helpful, the flaming fists ability is absurdly inefficient with ki, etc.

[j_spencer93]

I like them thematically, they just suffer mechanically. The recent elemental evil player guide which should have at least helped ignored them.

There are some nice points. Water whip is, as printed, fairly nice, though word from on high is it shouldn't be a bonus action meaning it becomes meh once errata hits. You can eventually fly but monk is one of the few characters for whom that isn't as big a deal, he can already run up vertical walls. Fireball comes too late to be that helpful, the flaming fists ability is absurdly inefficient with ki, etc.

I like it fluff and concept wise. Actually getting into the mechanics (like action economy) it does have its problems. Honestly even with errata i will prob ignore that about water whip (pretty cool by itself actually). I agree that the EE should have helped this archetype but oh well...

[ad_hoc]

AoE damage is not usually a martial character schtick, so I don't think that it's all that unreasonable. Otherwise you're doing nothing but AoE because it's too cheap a resource cost.

We have very different ideas of what is reasonable.



I think an AoE stunning fireball is a bit much?

I am not sure where I suggested they have an AoE stunning fireball?


Whilst I agree that you're using your elemental powers instead of martial arts, it's great that you have that choice.

Other monks don't have that option. Fighters don't have that option unless they're Eldritch Knights. Rogues can't unless they're Arcane Tricksters. Oh look, 1 out of 3 archetypes that changes the way you play by having spells. Seems consistent ;)

Oh I understand the design goals. I just don't think they hit the mark on the Elemental Monk.

Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters both get spells and abilities that complement the rest of their design.

The Elemental Monk doesn't get any abilities and their spell list is highly restrictive.

Do you see the difference between them?

[j_spencer93]

We have very different ideas of what is reasonable.



I am not sure where I suggested they have an AoE stunning fireball?



Oh I understand the design goals. I just don't think they hit the mark on the Elemental Monk.

Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters both get spells and abilities that complement the rest of their design.

The Elemental Monk doesn't get any abilities and their spell list is highly restrictive.

Do you see the difference between them?


Personally i thought a good fix for most of it was allow a monk to use it as a bonus action. But idk, havent played as one yet.

[silveralen]

I like it fluff and concept wise. Actually getting into the mechanics (like action economy) it does have its problems. Honestly even with errata i will prob ignore that about water whip (pretty cool by itself actually). I agree that the EE should have helped this archetype but oh well...

Yeah, I've been fine tuning things a bit with some homebrew, improving action economy and ki efficiency a bit. Even after some straight buffs it feels pretty balanced with the others, so I'm fairly happy.

[ad_hoc]

Personally i thought a good fix for most of it was allow a monk to use it as a bonus action. But idk, havent played as one yet.

Yeah, that is probably the simplest solution. Let's them nova a lot more.

It doesn't fix the design problems but does help with their power.

If we keep the comparison to the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster.

The EK gets abilities that seek to complement their archetype. They can impose disadvantage on saves against spells after hitting their enemy for example.

The AT greatly improves their lockpicking and sleight of hand by doing unique things with mage hand. And they impose disadvantage on spell saves by being hidden.

Their spells are on top of what they get from their chassis.

The Elemental Monk doesn't get abilities. They get a few spells that eat into what they get from their base class. It doesn't feel like they are combined in a cool new way. They're just basic spells that are rethemed. The Monk doesn't get to do anything cool with them.

[j_spencer93]

I see what you are saying. Idk though, i thought water ship and the air blast one (idr name) were good for controlling the battlefield. However i do see what you mean, they don't really work with what the monk can already do.

[Chronos]

And they could have made them work with what you normally do. Suppose, for instance, that Water Whip took a bonus action to activate, and lasted for some short duration (a minute, probably), with the effect that while it was active you could make unarmed strikes with the whip instead of with your hands. Now, you can use your Extra Attack and (on rounds after you activated it) Flurry to get more attacks with your whip. That'd have the same flavor, but now it's something you do while being monkish, rather than being something you do instead of being monkish like it is now.

Now, like ChubbyRain's ideas, this is just a spitball. You'd have to play around with the damage and ki cost to get the right balance point. But something qualitatively like that.

And I absolutely agree that they should have gotten some love in the elemental supplement. If nothing else, take some of the new spells, add one to their spell level for a ki cost, and give them a wuxia name: Presto, new elemental disciplines. It's just lazy that they couldn't even put in that much effort.

[j_spencer93]

ya...to be 100% honest I fear they won't give us many more player options. That doesn't seem to be a priority of theirs. Honestly so far with no 3rd party support and no player support in the future outside of adventures, I am kind of worried about this edition.

Anyways back to the point, that would have made a bad ass water whip

[silveralen]

I think that's a worry for everyone. With their focus on selling adventures over splat, a somewhat option starved edition (compared to the last two) seems to be getting most content updates via free online supplements that don't feel like the focus.

I would really enjoyed a paid subscription for unearthed arcana if it meant a bit more content a bit more fully fleshed out. Or at least a splat book being worked on.

[j_spencer93]

I 100% agree. I would subscribe for that too if it gave me more options. My players have noticed the lack of options too, which isn't good. The most experienced one is afraid that after 4-5 campaigns we will have exhausted what the Player's handbook gives you, which is possible.

Really hoping either we get 3rd party support or maybe even 1 splat per year.

[ChubbyRain]

Before they will start expanding on anything that isn't race or caster spell list people need to get over their weird fear of splat being bad.

Splat books and power creep is only bad if two things happen. You don't balance it. And you don't retcon previous stuff that isn't balance.

So a year after 5e comes out and they finally see the Elemental Monk for how weird in design it really is (and how lazy), instead of saying here is more powers to the previous EE monk they should just say here is a totally new Elemental Monk (circa 2015) and how it works. This will be balanced with the other class/subclass and the older version is obsolete (at least in organize play). Get the Sorcerer, Monk, and make real updates for them. Don't call them Warvlade, Swordsage, and Whatevercaster. Actually replace what is broken or damaged and change it.

Like in 3e, when they finally fixed the Fighter, Paladin, and Monk they for whatever reason decided to give them new names. There was no reason for that other than they wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

5e has a very nice core, probably the best I've seen (except for how the d20 matters more most of your career and your skill and ability does not...). But once you start getting out of the core rule designs and into class designs things start going the way of 3e... That isn't good.

Oh and splat book at tables has a simple solution. PHB/Free pdfs + One Book for each PC creation. This keeps things simple yet allows the player the freedom to use what they like. With no digging around in every book it also will keep things "balanced" or at least as balanced as what wotc considers balance.

I absolutely love options. Maybe it is because I love playing casters or it helps me make builds I've never tried before but options is a great thing.

I would love to see a "Way of the Monk: A Book of Monkly Options". This would have the phb options plus a lot more. If wotc doesn't want to take a chance of printing to many and having a lot f unsold items... Well a little thing called PDF would fix that problem. Sell the PDF at a reasonable price or have an example PDF, and then let people preorder the book.

But then again since core isn't balanced maybe splat options can never work because they can't be balanced or else you get the same crap over and over... Unbalanced and unfulfilling options.

[j_spencer93]

I agree with your sentiments actually. Lets just hope wizard sees this.

[Mara]

I do not plan to go far outside of the core books for 5e. I do not see any problem with the elemental monk. It's rather awesome.

I'm not playing 5e for endless splat content. If I wanted that, I would just play pathfinder.

[Safety Sword]

We have very different ideas of what is reasonable.



I am not sure where I suggested they have an AoE stunning fireball?



Oh I understand the design goals. I just don't think they hit the mark on the Elemental Monk.

Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters both get spells and abilities that complement the rest of their design.

The Elemental Monk doesn't get any abilities and their spell list is highly restrictive.

Do you see the difference between them?

I totally understand where you're coming from and I respect your position on it. I just don't agree. If we were face to face I'd buy you a beer and we'd talk about wizards or something...


I do not plan to go far outside of the core books for 5e. I do not see any problem with the elemental monk. It's rather awesome.

I'm not playing 5e for endless splat content. If I wanted that, I would just play pathfinder.

This is pretty much where I'm at. Elemental Monks can be effective characters, play nicely with other classes and can bring something unusual to the party.

I just think that this whole issue has been beat up (pardon the pun). In certain situations having a burst AoE a couple of times a day is fantastic for a primarily melee character. Just like being able to do more single target damage is going to serve you well sometimes. I just don't think they're at all that far away from where they should be.

[j_spencer93]

im playing a monk right now and its a blast lol

[Arc-Royal]

One point that I don't think has been raised about the Elements Monk is that they can target a save that's less common for front-liners than those that can be targeted by an Open Hand Monk. Open Hand can target CON for Stunning Strike and either STR or DEX for Open Hand Technique (I don't in any way wish to downplay how strong these abilities are), but an Elements Monk can also target WIS with Clench of the North Wind (starting at level 6). Also, access to additional damage types does have some niche potential against enemies that are vulnerable to certain types of damage (fire, cold, thunder) and some potentially life-saving utility (trapped in a Forcecage that takes the form of a barred cage rather than solid-walled cage? Mist Stance and slip through the cracks).

Sure, they're not battlefield controllers like Open Hand Monks, nor are they anything like Shadow Monks, but I'm still excited by the prospect of playing one in an upcoming campaign a friend of mine is going to run. It also fits in beautifully with the world he's created.

[Yagyujubei]

I agree those actually are nice. Although...they don't really make up a ninja to me. A think a ninja class is needed, as well as a samurai but still.

just throwing this out there, but im playing a warlock 2/monk 8 right now in one of my campaigns that's is 100% flavored as a ninja and its working out incredibly well. I homebrewed a background that got me proficiency with alchemists tool and poisoners kit, and took proficiency in nature. now I stealth around inside real or magical darkness and attack in flurries of daggers that are tipped in poison and empowered with ninjutsu (warlock stuff like Hex specifically) while teleporting all the **** around.

it's also REALLY fun to describe the things im doing in a cinematic and amazing way.

[Malifice]

just throwing this out there, but im playing a warlock 2/monk 8 right now in one of my campaigns that's is 100% flavored as a ninja and its working out incredibly well. I homebrewed a background that got me proficiency with alchemists tool and poisoners kit, and took proficiency in nature. now I stealth around inside real or magical darkness and attack in flurries of daggers that are tipped in poison and empowered with ninjutsu (warlock stuff like Hex specifically) while teleporting all the **** around.

it's also REALLY fun to describe the things im doing in a cinematic and amazing way.

Now you just need three levels of Assassin for the win.

[ad_hoc]

but an Elements Monk can also target WIS with Clench of the North Wind (starting at level 6).

Can they really though? Remember that it only affects humanoids. This is your 6th level ability. It costs 3 Ki to use it. How much higher Con do you think a humanoid would need to have to have a better chance of saving against 3 Stunning Strikes than 1 Hold Person? And you get to deal damage while using Stunning Strike. And Stunning Strike is not Concentration so you won't lose it when you take damage.



Also, access to additional damage types does have some niche potential against enemies that are vulnerable to certain types of damage (fire, cold, thunder)

Very niche. Only 9 monsters in the MM are vulnerable to Fire. 4 are vulnerable to Cold and 1 is vulnerable to Thunder.




and some potentially life-saving utility (trapped in a Forcecage that takes the form of a barred cage rather than solid-walled cage? Mist Stance and slip through the cracks).

Can you even afford to take Gaseous Form? You need Hold Person and a bunch of other damage types, and other utility spells. Gaseous Form you get at 11th level. You only know 4 spells at that level.

You get Shadow Step at 6th and it doesn't cost Ki.

You also get things like Darkness, Silence, and Pass Without Trace and you get them at 3rd level. Much less niche and they cost less to use.



Sure, they're not battlefield controllers like Open Hand Monks, nor are they anything like Shadow Monks, but I'm still excited by the prospect of playing one in an upcoming campaign a friend of mine is going to run. It also fits in beautifully with the world he's created.

Sure, I like the theme. It is just disappointing that they work against the standard Monk features and their abilities are very weak.

[Broken Twin]

Would it be overpowered to make the Element Monk abilities cost an attack, rather than a bonus/standard action? I mean, once you multiple attacks, being able to go Attack + Water Whip as your standard action.

[Easy_Lee]

Would it be overpowered to make the Element Monk abilities cost an attack, rather than a bonus/standard action? I mean, once you multiple attacks, being able to go Attack + Water Whip as your standard action.

Yeah, that'd be pretty busted when he flurries and turns the hits into cones of cold.

[Broken Twin]

Considering how many Ki points he gets, and the cost of those abilities, would he be able to burst like that more than once or twice before needing to recharge?

[Easy_Lee]

Considering how many Ki points he gets, and the cost of those abilities, would he be able to burst like that more than once or twice before needing to recharge?

Not often, but it's more the devastation caused by multiple cones of cold, or other relevant monk spell likes, that concerns me. Even a pure sorcerer couldn't do much better than one twinned spell, or one quickened spell plus a twinned cantrip, in a single round.

[MrStabby]

So in a game I DM I let one of my players combine Sorcerer and Elemental Monk

Original Thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409597-What-consequences-haven-t-I-seen

A few sessions in I have to say this is working very well for both him and the party. Switching between Ki and Sorcery Points and Spells does provide a lot of versatility and, whilst the spells are relatively low level compared to where they would be his willingness to spend Ki on them makes them just about viable.

He was underpowered at the start till he got the hang of his resources and the appropriate rate to go through them - being able to recover (some) power on a short rest he likes but does require some judgement.

His fire theme is really working for him in character as well and he is having a blast with it.

If you can get you DM to agree something like this is it might work as a practical way to play an elemental monk that has the feel you want and isn't just a worse version of another archetype.

I am pretty sure it isn't perfect (I think it will be losing power at the higher levels without a little more adjustment) but it has performed well up to level 9 so far.

[Anlashok]

Sort of disappointing to hear that they're taking the one good thing Elemental monks can do and nerfing it as their way of "fixing" the archetype.


Hoping future updates do something for it though I'm not sure what they could.

Also hoping to see better support for weapon wielding monks. Monks with swords and spears aren't nearly as outlandish as WotC seems to think they are.


Oh and better support for strong monks.

[Arc-Royal]

Can they really though? Remember that it only affects humanoids. This is your 6th level ability. It costs 3 Ki to use it. How much higher Con do you think a humanoid would need to have to have a better chance of saving against 3 Stunning Strikes than 1 Hold Person? And you get to deal damage while using Stunning Strike. And Stunning Strike is not Concentration so you won't lose it when you take damage.
Yes, they can target humanoids' WIS saves, so the "Can they really?" is a definite yes for the right (and, depending on your campaign, potentially most common) enemies. It also has the ability to last for more than one round (failed saves permitting) and target multiple enemies (yes, at increased ki cost, but I wouldn't use that as grounds on which to immediately dismiss the ability).


Very niche. Only 9 monsters in the MM are vulnerable to Fire. 4 are vulnerable to Cold and 1 is vulnerable to Thunder.
I don't have the Monster Manual, so I had no way of knowing how many are vulnerable to various damage types. Elemental damage types do let you bypass physical resistances, too (not sure how common resistance to all bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage is versus resistance to nonmagical bludgeoning/piercing/slashing--yes, I'm aware that monks' fists eventually count as magical for the purposes of resistances).


Can you even afford to take Gaseous Form? You need Hold Person and a bunch of other damage types, and other utility spells. Gaseous Form you get at 11th level. You only know 4 spells at that level.
Depends on what you've decided you want to focus on. No one's saying you have to take all the damage types out there.


You get Shadow Step at 6th and it doesn't cost Ki.
Congratulations? If you want to play a ninja who gets Shadow Step, go for a Shadows Monk. Not everyone wants to be a Shadows Monk.


You also get things like Darkness, Silence, and Pass Without Trace and you get them at 3rd level. Much less niche and they cost less to use.
And if those don't fit with the kind of monk you'd like to play, the point is negligible. Yes, they're strong abilities, but they might not fit with what you want out of a monk. You seem pretty set on the Shadows Monk hype train...


Sure, I like the theme. It is just disappointing that they work against the standard Monk features and their abilities are very weak.
Based on what I've read in this thread, I can definitely agree that the features seem weak, but I still feel an Elements Monk isn't a trap option like I get the feeling most of the folks in this thread think it is.

Mostly just trying to play devil's advocate here and raise some a point or two. Not trying to portray the different types of monks as being equal to one another, but I'd like to at least change the narrative from one that feels like "Elements Monks are garbage and no one should ever play them."

[SharkForce]

i don't think he's saying shadow monk is a better elemental monk.

i think he's saying that shadow monk is an example of how to make a monk that has a bunch of utility and cool abilities that synergize with the core monk class rather than compete with it.

and that's why, for example, the ability to teleport 60 feet without spending ki (and gaining advantage on your next attack) is compared to the ability to go ethereal by spending a whole bunch of ki.

it isn't relevant because shadow step should replace anything from elemental monk (it shouldn't). it's relevant because shadow step works well with the theme in fluff and mechanics, and works well with the core monk abilities, while that can't be said of elemental monk abilities.

it isn't an example of how to make an elemental monk by putting that ability in; it's an example of how to make a monk path in general.

[Malifice]

Also hoping to see better support for weapon wielding monks. Monks with swords and spears aren't nearly as outlandish as WotC seems to think they are.

Arent shortswords and spears monk weapons anyways? Its any non two handed or heavy simple weapon and short swords. Spears are versatile simple weapons.

Just refluff your handaxe or shortword to a katana, wakazashi, jian or dao.

[SharkForce]

Arent shortswords and spears monk weapons anyways? Its any non two handed or heavy simple weapon and short swords. Spears are versatile simple weapons.

Just refluff your handaxe or shortword to a katana, wakazashi, jian or dao.

that would be fine, if you didn't *have* to make certain attacks with your unarmed strike specifically rather than making them with your weapon.

[Arc-Royal]

i don't think he's saying shadow monk is a better elemental monk.

i think he's saying that shadow monk is an example of how to make a monk that has a bunch of utility and cool abilities that synergize with the core monk class rather than compete with it.

and that's why, for example, the ability to teleport 60 feet without spending ki (and gaining advantage on your next attack) is compared to the ability to go ethereal by spending a whole bunch of ki.

it isn't relevant because shadow step should replace anything from elemental monk (it shouldn't). it's relevant because shadow step works well with the theme in fluff and mechanics, and works well with the core monk abilities, while that can't be said of elemental monk abilities.

it isn't an example of how to make an elemental monk by putting that ability in; it's an example of how to make a monk path in general.
That makes more sense than the way I was reading it. Whoopsies.

I was pretty surprised that the EE Player's Companion didn't toss anything toward Elements Monks.

[Vogonjeltz]

Open hand is the best pure combat option but has no range/utility. If you can't run up to an enemy and boot them to death your gonna have a bad time

Factually true and yet...

"X is the best combat option but has no range/utility. If you can't run up to an enemy and Y them to death you're gonna have a bad time"

Choose the combination of X and Y that fits the above sentence in quotes:

The Greatsword : hack
Open Hand : boot
Wild shape : claw

The point being that the generic statement is equally applicable to all forms of melee combat. Yeah, if your character is melee range focused and is somehow incapable of being in melee range the fight is gonna be a lot harder.

I'm not seeing this as a serious drawback in a game where almost everything fights in melee.

The rest of thread has convinced me to try out an Elemental monk for the next character. I want to actually see how it works in practice (rather than just imagining).

[ad_hoc]

i think he's saying that shadow monk is an example of how to make a monk that has a bunch of utility and cool abilities that synergize with the core monk class rather than compete with it.

That is exactly it, thanks.

[j_spencer93]

Factually true and yet...

"X is the best combat option but has no range/utility. If you can't run up to an enemy and Y them to death you're gonna have a bad time"

Choose the combination of X and Y that fits the above sentence in quotes:

The Greatsword : hack
Open Hand : boot
Wild shape : claw

The point being that the generic statement is equally applicable to all forms of melee combat. Yeah, if your character is melee range focused and is somehow incapable of being in melee range the fight is gonna be a lot harder.

I'm not seeing this as a serious drawback in a game where almost everything fights in melee.

The rest of thread has convinced me to try out an Elemental monk for the next character. I want to actually see how it works in practice (rather than just imagining).

Works fine my my game. My players are a little less "optimization" and more "fun" though. Thematically it is pretty entertaining.

[silveralen]

The rest of thread has convinced me to try out an Elemental monk for the next character. I want to actually see how it works in practice (rather than just imagining).

Having seen one in play, it works fine at low levels and suffers at mid levels slightly just because you lag a bit just because your elements abilities aren't scaling well between your wisdom lagging slightly, few potent abilities, plus a general lack of utility. However, level 11 tends to help alot by providing numerous good utility options, and by 12/16 your wisdom has caught up more or less, allowing things like hold person, water whip, or fireball to actually hold their own. so 6-11 is the meh stretch, after that it evens out. It just hurts because 6-11 is one of the longer stretches of the game.

[ad_hoc]

Having seen one in play, it works fine at low levels and suffers at mid levels slightly just because you lag a bit just because your elements abilities aren't scaling well between your wisdom lagging slightly, few potent abilities, plus a general lack of utility. However, level 11 tends to help alot by providing numerous good utility options, and by 12/16 your wisdom has caught up more or less, allowing things like hold person, water whip, or fireball to actually hold their own. so 6-11 is the meh stretch, after that it evens out. It just hurts because 6-11 is one of the longer stretches of the game.

I do have limited experience at this level so I am genuinely curious.

At levels 12-16 do you find Hold Person to be a good thing to do compared to doing multiple attacks and Stunning Strikes in a round? Is it a worthwhile thing to do compared to the rest of the party?

Many classes get large spikes of power at level 11. How did the extra options at that level help the Elemental Monk stay relevant to them?

How do you find the concentration spells from levels 11-13? Is it worth casting Stoneskin or Fly?

When you use Fly, would Shadow Step have been better most of the time?

How many Short Rests did you get in a day? How many encounters per day?

Did you feel like you had enough Ki to use regular Monk abilities and Elemental ones?

Did you feel like a Monk or a Monk/Wizard?

Thank you

[silveralen]

I do have limited experience at this level so I am genuinely curious.

At levels 12-16 do you find Hold Person to be a good thing to do compared to doing multiple attacks and Stunning Strikes in a round? Is it a worthwhile thing to do compared to the rest of the party?

Many classes get large spikes of power at level 11. How did the extra options at that level help the Elemental Monk stay relevant to them?

How do you find the concentration spells from levels 11-13? Is it worth casting Stoneskin or Fly?

When you use Fly, would Shadow Step have been better most of the time?

How many Short Rests did you get in a day? How many encounters per day?

Did you feel like a Monk or a Monk/Wizard?

Thank you

Didn't play, saw someone else play. So I can only give a bit of info.

Hold person is good when your save gets up a bit, but the limited targetting and need to spend ki to target multiples made it generally situational.

The player went with fireball at lvl 11 and enjoyed it. It broadened his abilities, helped fill in an area the party was lacking.

The party didn't really spike. Maybe it was the classes everyone was playing, but nothing huge happened then. Barbarian, rogue, and druid. So his wasn't any more noticeable than the others.

Can't speak to how he felt, though as often as he flurried compared to using ki for elemental abilities I think he sometimes regretted it.

[ad_hoc]

Didn't play, saw someone else play. So I can only give a bit of info.

Hold person is good when your save gets up a bit, but the limited targetting and need to spend ki to target multiples made it generally situational.

The player went with fireball at lvl 11 and enjoyed it. It broadened his abilities, helped fill in an area the party was lacking.

The party didn't really spike. Maybe it was the classes everyone was playing, but nothing huge happened then. Barbarian, rogue, and druid. So his wasn't any more noticeable than the others.

Can't speak to how he felt, though as often as he flurried compared to using ki for elemental abilities I think he sometimes regretted it.

Thanks for your insight.

That sounds about right.

Barbarians get a defensive ability at 11. Rogue's Reliable Talent is really good and class defining, but it is more of an exploration and social tool than a combat one so not as flashy. Druids are a full caster so they just get their level 6 spell, which is a whole new world of power.

With no blasting classes Fireball gives the Monk something to do that the rest of the party isn't doing. So that is probably the best case scenario. It is still a level 3 spell vs the level 6 that the Druid gets.

Fly and Stoneskin are problematic until level 14 so it is best that the player didn't take them.

The funny thing with Hold Person is that the things with high Con and low Wis tend to be big monsters and you can't use it on them. At least with Stunning Strike you can force multiple saves and do some damage in the meantime. You also can rely on it lasting a whole round because you don't need to concentrate on it.

I would be fine with the Elemental Monk if it didn't use the same currency as the rest of the Monk abilities.

[j_spencer93]

Ok this pertains to monk and something I read, idr where. I heard/read that they plan to errata bracers of defense to make it where a monk/barbarian can't use them with unarmed defense, that sounds stupid and nothing written seems to suggest this. Would you take it away from them?
Pretty sure i read that on this forum actually

[Giant2005]

Ok this pertains to monk and something I read, idr where. I heard/read that they plan to errata bracers of defense to make it where a monk/barbarian can't use them with unarmed defense, that sounds stupid and nothing written seems to suggest this. Would you take it away from them?
Pretty sure i read that on this forum actually

I'm pretty sure you must be wrong! Those Bracers were designed specifically for those classes. Maybe you got confused and it was the fact that the Bracers can't be used with Shields that you are referring to?

[silveralen]

I don't recall seeing anything like that on sage advice which is the only way people would have that information other than just speculation.

[Yagyujubei]

Now you just need three levels of Assassin for the win.

the problem is that taking 3 rogue levels will slow down my aquisition of other key upgrades and monk die. that was my theoretical build at the start, but in practice I think the power curve is too crappy.

[j_spencer93]

You know I am almost 100% positive I read that on this forum somewhere. If i wasn't doing my work at the moment I would go diving for it.

Would using bracers of armor change the way you calculate AC or can they stack with unarmored defence? probably not stack - think of bracers and unarmored defense as establishing a base AC, like using natural OR manufactured armor. -M

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1900-D-D-5th-Edition-Sage-Advice-from-Designers-Mearls-Crawford#.VTlIEWRViko#ixzz3YA8OyooT

This single sentence comes up almost everywhere. Atleast a designer says they shouldn't. Welp actually he went on to later state he might of recalled it wrong....he made that statement based off of the playtest document not the released item. cough moron cough. Anyways that makes me happier, now back to college work.

[Fralex]

All the new wizard spells in the EE supplement seemed like they'd work with the Elemental monk, so I made a thing (http://www.enworld.org/forum/5earchetypes/showentry.php?e=112) to help convert them. Absorb elements looks particularly interesting.

[silveralen]

Absorb element was one of the spells that actually has potential to help elemental monk.

Doesn't cut into action economy as bad, remains useful at high levels, cost is actually reasonable for effect, it's a solid ability albeit dependent on enemies tossing around elemental damage of some sort.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

All the new wizard spells in the EE supplement seemed like they'd work with the Elemental monk, so I made a thing (http://www.enworld.org/forum/5earchetypes/showentry.php?e=112) to help convert them. Absorb elements looks particularly interesting.

I like that a lot, I think i'll use it when my group starts PotA if anyone is interested in a monk. Looking at the Elements monk, I do find it a bit ridiculous that they only get 4 "spells" and a cantrip. Though, I suppose each monk subclass is intended to be minor, with the majority of the features being part of the base class.

[SharkForce]

I like that a lot, I think i'll use it when my group starts PotA if anyone is interested in a monk. Looking at the Elements monk, I do find it a bit ridiculous that they only get 4 "spells" and a cantrip. Though, I suppose each monk subclass is intended to be minor, with the majority of the features being part of the base class.

shadow monks get 4 spells with their first ability. and a cantrip.

i would hope that an archetype which is totally focused on spells would do better than that over the entire path.

[Chronos]

For what it's worth, you have to take the "cantrip" one as one of your first two, but you're allowed to trade it away for another one at a later level.

[Fralex]

For what it's worth, you have to take the "cantrip" one as one of your first two, but you're allowed to trade it away for another one at a later level.

That makes me sad, though. I love prestidigitation-type cantrips, but even I'm not gonna keep one if I can replace it with something that has a real mechanical impact. It should really be something you get for free. Like, that's really not unbalanced at all to do, it just makes the class more fun.