Level One and Done

[sjeshin]

My group of players and I were thinking about doing some arena style PVP (for laughs / challenge / fun, not to resolve PC to PC conflict) and I thought it would be cool to do all level 1's. But unlike most optimization attempts / contests it would be desirable to pick things that are extremely good at level one, with no regard for how good they are at higher levels. We use all 1st party for the most part, no more than 2 flaws, and only the written ones. For me the things that come to mind are things with sneak attack, warlock with mortalbane, maybe some warmage? After a few rounds of this if sneak attack damage even seems relevant I imagine everyone will be necropoliton, but hey.

We either do 80 point buy (which is nothing like most point buy systems if I understand correctly. You get 80 points, max 18 in one ability before racials.) or we do rolled stats as per PHB. We would probably use the 80 points to allow for crazy characters, as it lets you do more with MAD builds and it's just fun. We also usually do max hp per HD for all characters be they monsters NPCS or PCS. Also for this, no LA greater than 0 if that wasn't obvious.

What would the playground do?

[Wacky89]

I don't think every1 is going to be Necropolitan, since if you apply that template at level 1 you die permanently.

[ComaVision]

Fell Drain Sonic Snap and pump initiative up.

Boom, instant death. No save, no attack roll.

[sjeshin]

Fell Drain Sonic Snap and pump initiative up.

Boom, instant death. No save, no attack roll.

Isn't fel drain +2 at least?

[Bucky]

Isn't fel drain +2 at least?

I think the level 1 Fell Drain builds use Metamagic School Focus or similar.

With considerably more investment it's even possible to fire off a Fell Drain Magic Missile at level 1, but I forget how.

(E) See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?126485-Optimized-level-1-pvp-characters&p=7043574#post7043574) for a previous discussion on the subject.

[sjeshin]

I think the level 1 Fell Drain builds use Metamagic School Focus or similar.

I didn't realize there was any metamagic cheese other than DMM for level 1. That's pretty awesome. Still, I think everyone will be stacking initiative, so there would be more variance than snap wins.

[ComaVision]

Isn't fel drain +2 at least?

It's +2, and Sonic Snap is 0 so you need to reduce the metamagic cost by 1. Metamagic School Focus feat will do that.

EDIT: I'm slow. Wizard has an easy time stacking Initiative though. Max Dex, hummingbird familiar, Improved Initiative feat, and Nerveskitter spell is pretty sweet. You don't even need high intelligence.

[sjeshin]

It's +2, and Sonic Snap is 0 so you need to reduce the metamagic cost by 1. Metamagic School Focus feat will do that.

EDIT: I'm slow. Wizard has an easy time stacking Initiative though. Max Dex, hummingbird familiar, Improved Initiative feat, and Nerveskitter spell is pretty sweet. You don't even need high intelligence.

Ok. I can definatley see how they are going to have a clear advantage in that respect. I'm hoping this doesn't devolve into wizard wins lol. I'm curious for other ideas. It may be we all try something else for the sake of it if the wizard proves to almsot always win initiative.

[Bucky]

Terrain matters. The playground Arena standard is to start combatants out of sight of each other, so that stealthies have a chance to hide before the fighting starts. It shifts some of the burden from Initiative onto Stealth vs. Spot.

[sjeshin]

Terrain matters. The playground Arena standard is to start combatants out of sight of each other, so that stealthies have a chance to hide before the fighting starts. It shifts some of the burden from Initiative onto Stealth vs. Spot.

We haven't usually done this. We had plenty of things to block LOS / LOE, and decent distance, but I guess this is much better. Even so though, unless you make the arena a forest, once they come out of cover / concealment, unless they can generate it themselves or have HIPS at level 1, they aren't hiding anymore.

[ComaVision]

Ok. I can definatley see how they are going to have a clear advantage in that respect. I'm hoping this doesn't devolve into wizard wins lol. I'm curious for other ideas. It may be we all try something else for the sake of it if the wizard proves to almsot always win initiative.

Hm... Death Devotion feat Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian? Increased movement speed, extra attack, and increased attack bonus. I think negative levels are the way to go at level 1.

[Glimbur]

Shape Soulmeld: Rage Claws is effectively +10 hp for one feat. At level 1 that's not bad... unless fell drain spells are getting thrown around then it doesn't matter.

[ComaVision]

Shape Soulmeld: Rage Claws is effectively +10 hp for one feat. At level 1 that's not bad... unless fell drain spells are getting thrown around then it doesn't matter.

Would be pretty funny if everyone's trying to stack HP/AC and OP comes in slinging the negative levels.

[Chronos]

The other thing that gets distorted in fights like this is that endurance becomes irrelevant. A once per week ability is just as good as an at-will ability, if it's enough to win the fight.

And clerics also have a first-level initiative-boosting spell, if you get to pre-buff sometime in the prior ten minutes: Sign, from the Spell Compendium, gives +4 to the first initiative check you roll while it's active.

[jiriku]

I'm hoping this doesn't devolve into wizard wins lol.

I'm afraid it's likely. Even non-optimized wizards can throw a save-or-lose sleep from 110' away, and most characters have at best a 60% chance of saving against it. Power word: pain + run away will also kill most 1st level opponents in 2-3 rounds with no attack roll and no save, and with expeditious retreat and a sufficiently large arena a wizard can easily keep out of melee range for a couple of rounds while the spell does its work.

What's your starting wealth? If it's a fixed amount and more than a few gp, I do encourage you to play a commoner optimizing handle animal and spend all of your starting wealth on attack dogs and a donkey or pony to use as a mount. The look on their faces will be priceless.

[Chronos]

I'm having a hard time thinking of a character that wouldn't have a 100% chance against Sleep. Sleep is really easy to deal with: Once the wizard starts casting, you kill him, and if you can't kill him, then you move out of the range of the spell. All it accomplishes is wasting a spell slot and giving up the initiative.

[Eloel]

We had an arena here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396919-The-Howling-Arena-The-Stands-OOC) for level 1s a couple months ago. You can check the builds there for ideas.

There's a feat that gives effective negative level immunity - you may want to give that a go.

I used the aforementioned Fell Drain trick here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396920-The-Howling-Arena-Site-1-IC&p=18775615), the fight was a sad one.

Another fun trick: Take Resist Energy on a Mystic Ranger. Cast it a couple times, and shoot stuff.

[Crake]

Power Word: Pain

[Chronos]

Quoth Eloel:

There's a feat that gives effective negative level immunity - you may want to give that a go.
What feat is that? I didn't see it mentioned in the linked thread. The only defense mentioned there against Fell Drain was a potion of Death Ward.

Which wouldn't actually work: Death Ward protects against energy drain and negative energy, and Fell Drain isn't actually specified to be either.

[sjeshin]

We had an arena here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396919-The-Howling-Arena-The-Stands-OOC) for level 1s a couple months ago. You can check the builds there for ideas.

There's a feat that gives effective negative level immunity - you may want to give that a go.

I used the aforementioned Fell Drain trick here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396920-The-Howling-Arena-Site-1-IC&p=18775615), the fight was a sad one.

Another fun trick: Take Resist Energy on a Mystic Ranger. Cast it a couple times, and shoot stuff.

Do you know what that feat is? I looked into necropolitan as a way around fell drain, and as someone mentioned already it won't work, you lose a level and xp, so at lvl 1 you couldn't build it. But the same book does have undead monsters as classes that pretty much invalidate that strategy. I feel like in my head it goes undead class x beats fell drain / control wiz, cleric with good turning beats that undead, and that cleric gets owned by fell drain. So, since wizard has a rock to its scissors maybe this will actually end up with some variety.

[Bronk]

Maybe have a flying archer or caster by using the +0LA Unseelie Fey template?

[dextercorvia]

I'm having a hard time thinking of a character that wouldn't have a 100% chance against Sleep. Sleep is really easy to deal with: Once the wizard starts casting, you kill him, and if you can't kill him, then you move out of the range of the spell. All it accomplishes is wasting a spell slot and giving up the initiative.

Uncanny Forethought reduces the casting time of spells like Sleep or Hail of Stone to something more reasonable.


What feat is that? I didn't see it mentioned in the linked thread. The only defense mentioned there against Fell Drain was a potion of Death Ward.

Which wouldn't actually work: Death Ward protects against energy drain and negative energy, and Fell Drain isn't actually specified to be either.

It's from one of the evil books, IIRC. I don't have all of those.

Found it, I think: Heart of the Nabassu, FCI, harmlessly absorb a number of negative levels = to the number of abyssal heritor feats (including this one) each day.

I did see a level one Martial build that countered most of the common tricks of 1st level wizard optimization. It included HotN, and IIRC Deformity Madness to immunize against mind-effecting. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Edit: Here it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17802041&postcount=125)

[lytokk]

My money would be on the warforged crusader normally, but with what was that 80 point buy? The adamantine body is going to hamper AC so hard. Maybe a warforged fighter with mithral body, weapon focus longbow, point blank and rapid shot.

[Eloel]

Do you know what that feat is? I looked into necropolitan as a way around fell drain, and as someone mentioned already it won't work, you lose a level and xp, so at lvl 1 you couldn't build it. But the same book does have undead monsters as classes that pretty much invalidate that strategy. I feel like in my head it goes undead class x beats fell drain / control wiz, cleric with good turning beats that undead, and that cleric gets owned by fell drain. So, since wizard has a rock to its scissors maybe this will actually end up with some variety.

Enduring Life from Libris Mortis

[danzibr]

For kicks I would optimize hp. You can get over 30 for sure. Maybe 40.