Paying Feats Forward

[Vhaidara]

So, I've had a thought in mind. One of the biggest problems that a lot of really fun builds, like thrown weapons, for example, run into is that they have in insanely high Feat cost, sometimes forcing the character to wait until double digit levels to come properly into what they were supposed to do from the beginning. Archery and TWF have these issues as well. Let's look at some of them
Dex TWF: Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, TWF (only available to Humans with a level 1 class bonus feat)
Str TWF: Prodigious TWF, TWF, Double Slice (same)
Archery: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot/Rapid Shot (Sniper vs Volley)

So, I had an idea. At level 1, you can take more feats than normal. The GM can choose a cap, I recommend 10 in addition to feats from race/class. You must qualify for all of these feats, though you can use them to qualify for each other.

Now, however many feats you choose, they lock your next X feats. So, for example, take a level 1 Half Orc Fighter who wanted to focus on Str based TWF with throwable weapons.
Level 1, he has a bonus feat from Fighter. He chooses to take
Quick Draw, Prodigious TWF, TWF, Double Slice, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
For a total of 7 feats. He has 2 naturally (level 1 and Fighter 1). So he has a Feat Debt of 5
He levels up, and would normally gain a Fighter Bonus Feat. However, because he has Feat Debt, he doesn't gain a new feat. Instead, his Feat Debt drops to 4
Because he's a fighter, gaining a feat every level (either FB or normal), he pays off his debt by level 6, taking a new feat at 7.

Now, let's consider if this was a Barbarian. Because he lacks a bonus feat at level 1, he starts with a Feat Debt of 6. And it takes him until level 15 before he gets a new feat. Not ideal, but now he doesn't have to wait that long just to get the basics needed to be on the same playing field as a barbarian who grabbed a Greatsword and Power attack at level 1.

What is the opinion of the Playground on this system?

As a note, for retraining purposes, you gained all of these feats at level 1. So no loading up on Toughness and then retraining out of it when you actually qualify for good feats.

[Jormengand]

So...

Why would you ever not take all your feats at first level?

[Vhaidara]

So...

Why would you ever not take all your feats at first level?

Because you need to qualify for them. There are these things called "Prerequisites" that first level characters sometimes don't meet.

[GilesTheCleric]

I really like this idea. I'm always frustrated when almost every interesting build concept I come up with doesn't reach completion until level 10-15, by which point it's never going to see actual play. Trying to get them to be viable/complete earlier usually necessitates more cheese+DM adjucation than I'm willing to use, even if the build itself isn't powerful.

For picking up every feat at level 1, yes there's pre-reqs that might not be met, but there's even a strategic advantage to not picking everything up immediately: if you have a BBEG who scrys you for the whole campaign, you need to grow into something new so that you have a trick they're not prepared for. Besides, learning new things as you level is a large part of the feeling of accomplishment associated with the game (and many games, which is why eg level caps keep increasing in WoW), so taking everything at 1 might lead to a pretty boring game in terms of mechanical character growth.

[Jormengand]

Because you need to qualify for them. There are these things called "Prerequisites" that first level characters sometimes don't meet.

True, but most wizards will happily take most to all of their feats in one go, and so will a fair few clerics. In fact, prereqs will normally end up hurting martials more than casters.

[Necroticplague]

True, but most wizards will happily take most to all of their feats in one go, and so will a fair few clerics. In fact, prereqs will normally end up hurting martials more than casters.

True this. A lot of martial feats have Prereq: BaB. Most spellcasting only have prereq: must be able to cast spells or Prereq:other metamagic feat.

[Vhaidara]

Well, most of those metamagics wouldn't be useful yet.

The idea here was to let the Martials snag all those feats that they could take at level 1 if they had the feats to do so.

I would probably be inclined to tack caster level requirements onto metamagics, however.

[Zaq]

I'd be in support of allowing it on a case-by-case basis.

I think it would be awfully abusable if you just allowed it with no restrictions, but with an involved GM keeping things in check, I think it would work pretty well.

You might want to include a clause about these feats not qualifying you for PrCs until you earn them normally, but again, that's something an involved GM could handle on a case-by-case basis.

[Mithril Leaf]

As a note, for retraining purposes, you gained all of these feats at level 1. So no loading up on Toughness and then retraining out of it when you actually qualify for good feats.

Look at the FAQ on retraining.

Can I retrain a feat to replace it with a feat I didn't qualify for at the level I originally gained that feat?

Yes. As long as the new feat is a valid feat for your current character, you can retrain the old feat and replace it with the new feat.

For example, if you are a 3rd-level rogue who took Improved Initiative at 1st level, you can retrain that feat and replace it with Weapon Focus. Even though Weapon Focus has a prerequisite of "base attack bonus +1" (which means you couldn't take it as a 1st-level rogue), it is a valid feat for your current level (3rd), and is therefore a valid choice for retraining. (Note: Likewise, the fighter class ability to retrain fighter bonus feats does not require you to meet all of the new feat's prerequisites at the level you originally gained the feat.)

[grarrrg]

As a note, for retraining purposes, you gained all of these feats at level 1. So no loading up on Toughness and then retraining out of it when you actually qualify for good feats.

There's also the fact that you can only take (PF) Toughness one time, thus there is no "loading up" on it. But what Mithril Leaf said still stands.

There's nothing stopping you from taking Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Blind-Fight, Skill Focus (Everything), etc...

Yeah... There NEEDS to be a NOTABLE downside to all this.

[Twilightwyrm]

True, but most wizards will happily take most to all of their feats in one go, and so will a fair few clerics. In fact, prereqs will normally end up hurting martials more than casters.

Is it just me, or does it feel like it is never not the case that game mechanic X hurts martials more than spellcasters?

[Necroticplague]

Also, because you can never guarantee the character will be around for those later levels, this can easily turn into a loan one never has to pay off. If you expect the campaign will never go past level 6, then why not 'borrow' from your level 9 self who will never exist? It's like a more extreme version of frontloaded classes.

[Feint's End]

With is seems like an overly complicated solution for a big problem.

Why not remove most of those feats / rule them into one?
-Remove the whole twf line and allow it for str and Dez based equally. Not broken
-rule point blank shot and precise shot into one feat

Those are just 2 examples but you get the idea. I personally use this solution.

[Necromancy]

With is seems like an overly complicated solution for a big problem.

Why not remove most of those feats / rule them into one?
-Remove the whole twf line and allow it for str and Dez based equally. Not broken
-rule point blank shot and precise shot into one feat

Those are just 2 examples but you get the idea. I personally use this solution.

I did this ages ago. Pathfinder loves its splatbooks, excepts there's almost no splat to be had. The end result is a master feat list that is well into the 1000s

I tossed them all into a spreadsheet. Deleted ones that will never be used, and modified existing ones. Getting that number down below 300 is nice.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Why not remove most of those feats / rule them into one?
That's probably the more elegant solution, though I don't think it's simpler.

As another alternative, how about doing what I did with my Giants and Graveyards rewrite and grant feats automatically? Make things like Point Blank/Precise Shot free at BAB +1, grant Slashing/Piercing Grace for free with Weapon Finesse, and so on. Grant follow-up TWF feats for free as soon as you qualify. Stuff like that helps feat load a lot.

[Vhaidara]

Also, because you can never guarantee the character will be around for those later levels, this can easily turn into a loan one never has to pay off. If you expect the campaign will never go past level 6, then why not 'borrow' from your level 9 self who will never exist? It's like a more extreme version of frontloaded classes.

This is why I mentioned a limit. 10 was given because that's how many feats every character will have by level 20, regardless of race/class. However, if you are only planning on running to 5, then you would want to limit to 3 (+ first level bonuses)


With is seems like an overly complicated solution for a big problem.

Why not remove most of those feats / rule them into one?
-Remove the whole twf line and allow it for str and Dez based equally. Not broken
-rule point blank shot and precise shot into one feat

Those are just 2 examples but you get the idea. I personally use this solution.

I generally do as well, but was considering other ways it could be handled

Also, 2 other points
@Retraining: Well, that's a chance from 3.5. And not one that I like. Add in that the retraining rules revert back to 3.5 (need to have qualified at the time

@Hurting martials more than casters: I think you guys are stating this wrong. This does not hurt martials at all. However, because of the fact that metamagics are stupid and Paizo doesn't dare put prereqs on anything for casters, it ends up helping martials less than casters. There is a difference. Hurting them more would be taking $50 from martials and only taking $5 from casters. This is giving the martials a $10 and giving casters a $20. Both are helped, just one more than others.