Batman Vs The Punisher [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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TheThan

2015-04-16, 07:07 PM

So since there seems to be a trend of Marvel vs DC here’s yet another interesting line up. The punisher is somehow transported from Marvel’s New York City to DC’s Gotham City. There he sees that the city is overrun with crime and decides to do what he does best; punish the guilty.
So let’s look at each character’s traits, capabilities, equipment, allies and personality to determine the winner, I think you guys will be a bit surprised at how close this is.

The punisher:
The punisher has military training as a Capitan in the US marine corps (force recon). He also has training from the airborn school, US Navy S.E.A.L.S as well as the Australian SAS (SASR). This has granted him a wide variety of “special forces” skills. Including basic infantryman skills, underwater and night operations, demolitions (including underwater demolitions training) and explosives training, infiltration, forced entry, intelligence gathering, parachuting, non-conventional warfare, specialized raiding, he is trained in camouflage, stealth, heavily trained in martial arts (able to pick apart and kill a group of enemies unarmed with ease). He’s a superb marksman, an armourer, gunsmith and an expert in field medicine.
In the Ultimate version of the punisher he also has police training as a former NYPD officer (although I can’t find anything to specify what he did as part of the NYPD). Some versions of the punisher depict him as having once been involved in the catholic priesthood, indicating at least partial religious training.
The batman:
Batman is a polymath, a master of multiple disciplines. He has extensive martial arts training and is known as one of the greatest martial artists in the DC universe. He is a master of disguise, a multi-lingual, an expert in espionage, master of stealth and escapology. He is an expert in interrogation techniques. He is an inventor, a proficient scientist. And has knowledge or expertise in almost every discipline known to man.

The punisher:
The punisher uses a wide array of weapons and equipment. He usually employs a variety of assault rifles (select fire rifles), semi-automatic rifles, sub-machine guns, full sized machine guns, various hand guns, various grenades such as fragmentation grenades, smoke bombs, tear gas. He uses a variety of explosives such as dynamite, plastic explosives and even IEDs. He also employs a variety of knives including gravity knives, K-bar military knives, and ballistic knives.
Because the punisher sticks to conventional weaponry, he has the capability to pick up the weapons of his enemies and use them with as much effect as he would his own. Meaning any weapon that happens to be lying around can be put to good use in his hands.
The punisher also uses body armor, decorated with a white deaths head, to protect himself from gunfire. The punisher also uses a variety of specialized gear to accomplish his goals; night vision, scuba, sonic listening devices you name it.
Frank uses just about any sort of vehicle he deems necessary. At times he’s used custom built “battle vans” that allow him to deploy more high tech weaponry including “super tech” taken from super villains and even some super heroes; including pumpkin bombs, a goblin glider, a tentacle from doctor octopus and even Ant-man’s Pym Particles.
Frank has no permanent base of operations and must move about often. Additionally all of The Punisher’s weaponry is conventional which leaves no obvious signs of who was responsible for whatever sort of carnage he has left in his wake.
The Batman:
The batman deploys a wide range of strictly speaking non-lethal technology all with a bat motif, and all held in his ubiquitous utility belt. His belt includes but is not limited to batarangs, his grapple gun, bolas, tracers, smoke pellets, gas pellets, a line launcher, tranquilizer gun, glue globules, lock pics, rebreather, Cryptographic sequencer, laser, pellet grenades, concussion mines, explosive jell, thermite grenades, napalm, a tazer, stun pellets, EMP gun, disruptor, a remote claw, ultrasonic bat beacon, sonic devastator, freeze grenades and even kryptonite.

His bat motif costume, the bat suit is also quite the piece of equipment. It’s body armor; providing batman with ballistic protection, his cape can be deployed to slow his falls or even as a hang glider in some instances. He uses it to conceal his moves and blend into the shadows.
He has a list of bat-themed vehicles including the famous batmobile, the bat-copter, the bat-boat, the bat- sub, the bat cycle, and even the batwing, a bat-jet if you will.

Batman’s lair, the batcave, houses all of the batman’s gadgets and gizmos. It also is home to the bat-computer which is batman’s primary analytical tool. The batcave also holds a crime lab, specialized laboratories, a workshop, a gym, and a vast library.

Bruce Wayne is rich, very, very rich and also the CEO of a major multi-national conglomerate. This grants him the wealth to develop, build and test his equipment as well as the resources he needs to keep the batcave and his utility belt well stocked. It also gives him access to various forms of super tech, as he can just aquire it from his company or simply outright buy it.

The punisher:
Frank Castle has no family and few if any real friends. He has from time to time teamed up with proper super heroes such as Daredevil, Spiderman and even members of the Avengers. However he has never formed a permanent relationship with any of them. All of his team-ups have been temporary at best.

Because of his status as a wanted vigilante, Frank has no ties to the police. Although some versions of him show he has ties to SHIELD and nick Fury. Even the US military has turned its back on him, listing him as a deserter; even though someone that has gone through that level of training is not likely to desert since he’s already invested A LOT of time and effort to acquire that training. His only real connection to anyone is a man called Microchip who at one time was responsible to equipping the punisher with more advanced equipment.
The Batman:
Bruce Wayne has one son, Damian. His personal butler Alfred is also a close confidant to batman, he also has a personal physician and a personal business manager involved in handling Wayne Enterprises and the Wayne foundation.
He also has a long list of friends and allies that fight along with him or support him in his efforts.
Batman has had numerous sidekicks and allied superheroes joining him in his fight against crime. The most prominent is Richard Grayson the original robin and later NIghtwing.

He has ties to the Gotham police department and has a very strong working relationship with the police commissioner and at least one of its detectives. Giving him access to information the police have that he might not. This seems to be a two way relationship as he routinely gives information over to them as well. This also means that his activities have an air of legitimacy about them. When the police commissioner asks for your help, people will tend to associate that with being on the up and up.

He has a long list of friends among the super hero community. The founding members of the justice league are counted amongst his friends and he has a working relationship with most of its upstanding members.

The Punisher:
Despite his military training, the punisher rarely shows more tactics than a straight forward in your face approach. He kicks in the door and starts shooting. While seemingly simple his tactics are very effective as he has very few reoccurring enemies cropping up to threaten innocents. He’s simply killed his enemies. In The 1989 punisher movie (staring Dolph Lundgren; check it out it’s actually pretty good) has successfully weakened the New York crime families enough that the Yakuza has begun to take over. He has had a noticeable effect on crime weakening organized crime enough that they cannot protect their business from a hostile takeover.

The batman:
Batman relies heavily upon stealth and terror to defeat his foes. His fearsome image and ninja training allow him to strike from the shadows and disappear, leaving remaining victims in terror. His slew of non-lethal gadgets easily incapacitates most of his foes and his skill with his specialized gear is unparalleled.

However despite his tremendous martial training and tactics; He has had little actual effect on crime. Batman has an entire rogues gallery of enemies that have not been successfully put away. Even though Batman consistently defeats them, they manage to get back on the streets in seemingly no time at all. Therefore despite long years of fighting crime he has little to show for his efforts.

The punisher:
Frank Castle is a pure loner, with few friends, loved ones or romantic interests. He is purely dedicated to his work as a vigilante and his outlook reflects this. He has little remorse for his enemies and rarely shows leniency for those he’s decided to punish. However he’s occasionally shown remorse and has used his fearsome reputation to scare young criminals straight. He has a soft spot for children and will go out of his way to protect those he sees as innocent. He exists to make the world a better place for innocents, and it’s clear he doesn’t count himself as one. He feels his actions are justified by the lives he’s saved in his war on crime. However he also realizes that his justification alone does not absolve him of his own wrongdoing. Because Frank has nothing to live for and is not afraid of death; he is completely fearless.

The Batman:
Bruce Wayne is in as much pain over the murder of his parents as Frank is over the murder of his wife and children. The batman is alone in a crowd; he has an extensive network of friends and family that care for him and look after him, but he rarely reaches out for their help; choosing instead to brood in his batcave. He’s famously known for treating his sidekicks poorly, manipulating them emotionally. Occasionally Batman has been known to crack a cynical joke. Batman cannot take a life; he fears that doing so would turn him into one of the very monsters that he fights against. Batman is loaded with fear; his psyche is a mess and he has issues, lots of issues. However he uses that fear as a weapon in his war on crime.

The Punisher:
Frank castle is mentally very tough, able to resist mind control. He is also notoriously resilient, with an unparalleled pain threshold. This gives him the ability to shrug off injuries that would incapacitate a lesser man. He has likely undergone training to resist interrogation techniques; considering his military background. The Punisher stays physically fit and remains in top condition.

The batman:
Bruce wayne posses a genius level intellect and is also considered the world’s greatest detective and the world’s greatest crime solver. Batman also remains at peek human conditioning.

The results:

category
The Punisher
The Batman

training
X
X

equipment

X

friends and allies

x

tactics and effectiveness
X

personality

x

other characteristics
x

Results:
The Punisher and Batman tie in the training category. Both have precisely the tools needed to perform their tasks and match up well against each other. So that becomes a push.

Batman has the Punisher licked in the equipment category. His vast wealth and advanced tech really push it over the edge. If it wasn’t for that; I’d given it to the Punisher as his ability to take up his enemies weapons is huge. Batman’s specialized and stylized gear does not allow that.

Batman wins the friends and allies category. Frank has no contacts that can be used against him; however that also means he has no allies to fall back on should he get in over his head. Batman has that safety net so when he gets in trouble, his allies can come to his aid. They can even provide alibis for him should someone figure out that batman and Bruce Wayne are the same and also provide support such as medical care, and access to specialized equipment or skills (such as magic).

The punisher owns the tactics and effectiveness category hands down. While he’s not known as a strategist, the simple fact his efforts to wipe out crime in New York City work brilliantly and has been shown to actually reduce crime is a hard one to beat. Batman’s non-lethal policy means that criminals end up roaming the streets again and again and again; no matter how many times batman puts them behind bars. Drug dealers are still out there peddling their drugs; the joker is still out there killing; Catwoman is still out there stealing; you get the idea.

Personality: I give this one to Batman. While Frank shows remorse when he makes a mistake and genuine compassion for victims of crimes; he is still a brooding loner with no relationships. Bruce has had several love interests and even has a son, suggesting he can get out of his brood and that he actually has a personality outside of brood mode. Even despite his track record with sidekicks.

Other characteristics: I give this one to the Punisher. Frank’s physical and mental toughness is a huge benefit for him. While Bruce’s genius level intellect and polymath abilities allow him to know any piece of relevant information at any time; I don’t feel that’s a sufficient advantage in this particular contest.

The Punisher: 2
The Batman: 3

I see the scenario going down in three parts:

Part one: Frank Castle gets into town, he spends an appropriate amount of time gathering intelligence; who the big names are, what sort of business they’re involved in, who the competition is and what their MO is. During this period he lays low and doesn’t do anything to raise anyone’s attention.
Then he plans his first move: he selects his target and prepares his raid. He gets his equipment and goes in, cutting the power remotely before kicking in the door guns a blazing. However he’s unaware that Batman is also raiding the location. The criminals flee; some are killed or wounded by the punisher; others are incapacitated by batman. But the two meet. Batman is horrified by the punisher’s violence and the two fight. Batman tries to use his stealth and terror tactics to scare the Punisher. But he’s immune to the terror and batman is forced to retreat. round one goes to the Punisher.

Part two: Finding himself with a new threat, Batman begins studying up on his new threat; however because the Punisher comes from a different universe, there isn't much to go on so much of Batman's detective skills falls into the realm of guesswork. However the Punisher is also studying up on batman how he fights, what his MO is etc. They have another conflict with both combatants ready. Batman’s ninja skills counter the Punisher’s weapons and soon the two are in close combat. Batman gets a surprise and discovers just how tenacious and skilled the Punisher really is. However they prove to be evenly matched. They break up the fist fight; batman hits the punisher with a tazer and the punisher hits batman with a solid gunshot. Both are injured and must flee. The round goes to nobody, an even tie.

The third and final confrontation has batman setting up a trap for the Punisher. Using his Matches Malone alias as bait, he sets up a target the Punisher can’t refuse, a meeting between two mob bosses. The Punisher takes the bait. The two fight and Punisher proves just as tenacious and dangerous as before. But batman is ready and has developed a plan; use his non lethal gear to wear the Punisher down before closing in to melee to take him out. This works however batman does not win cleanly and suffers several injuries before putting Punisher down. Unfortunately for batman; it won’t be long before the Punisher is stalking the streets again.

The the outcome:
While they both prove quite the match for each other; batman’s detective capabilities will allow him to spot weaknesses and vulnerabilities in the Punisher’s defense as well as make accurate educated guesses about what the Punisher's MO is; which gives him the ability to get inside his head figure out what the Punisher's next move is before he does it. He also has a huge list of potential allies he could call. if he can’t stop the Punisher, superman certainly can. While I didn’t depict that in the scenario, I have to take that into account. The Punisher simply can’t contend with that sort of raw power.

Batman wins the scenario because he always comes off as a more cleaver opponent, with tactics that change for each combatant he faces. The Punisher is hard pressed to shrug off the image of being nothing more than a guy with a machine gun. Therefore his tactics and capabilities always seem to fall short despite their proven effectiveness. However The Punisher is notoriously tough and wears body armor, so batman's standard issue bat-gear will have a minor effect on him. Instead Batman would have to fall back on more harder hitting equipment than he typically uses. But that's not an issue when you're super rich.

I’ve tried to be as thorough and as fair as I could in this contest. Feel free to post your perspective here.

Tiki Snakes

2015-04-16, 07:20 PM

My perspective is that DC and Marvel got there already.
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080201151511/marveldatabase/images/e/e9/Punisher_and_Batman_Deadly_KnightsVol_1_1.jpg

Though invariably it would probably segue into the whole common-goal thing sooner or later, I'm sure.

Traab

2015-04-16, 07:32 PM

Zmeoaice

2015-04-16, 07:47 PM

I wonder how Punisher would fare agaisnt Batman's rogue's gallery.

Probably not very well, he can't even take out a bald fat guy.

Metahuman1

2015-04-16, 08:01 PM

Punisher's enemy's don't come back? Did Jigsaw and the Russian get that memo?

Also, I could see Batman during the research phase just going "You know what, he's not carrying any Kryptonight or red solar radiation or sufficiently powerful electric or sonic weapons." *Makes call.* "Dr. Fate, I'm sending you some info, does this guy have any magic anything going on?" *beat, beat, beat.* "Oh, he doesn't? Thanks, appreciate the info." *Calls Clark Kent.* "Hey, I'm gonna set up a mob meeting outside town. No, no, not entrapment, I'm actually not worried about getting the Mob guys right now. New player in town, fancies himself a shoot'em up movie hero, decent martial artists too. Was wondering if you'd be willing to spot me five minutes to get him off the street when he takes the bate? Thanks, appreciate it.".

And so it as that Batman defeated Punisher through the power of being smart enough to pick his battles and do his research after the first unplanned engagement.

TheThan

2015-04-16, 08:04 PM

Honestly, my perspective is, Batman fights gunmen ALL THE TIME. He doesnt just fight gunmen, he fights gunmen who are working as henches for bad guys with actual superpowers. So he is dodging bullets and taking down gunmen while at the same time... I dunno, mr freeze, is trying to turn him into an icicle. I just dont see a guy who revolves around shooting guns without having some sort of ace like bullseye, or deadshot, in order to make "guy with guns" dangerous as being particularly effective against batman. In all honesty, its pure author fiat that keeps castle alive all this time. You keep charging face first into tony montanas headquarters, eventually they are going to get lucky.

I agree to an extent. The Punisher has the toolkit to be a complete terror to anyone he goes up against. but he's usually depicted using kick in the door, start shooting tactics. these tactics shouldn't work all the time. I blame it on lousy comic book writing and what i call the "the Rambo" syndrome. That's the ultimate gun toting badass's ability to stand completely still, spraying and praying everywhere and kill everything everywhere, without ever running out of ammo or getting shot.

Punisher's enemy's don't come back? Did Jigsaw and the Russian get that memo?
i thought I said most of his enemies. let me go back and see if i need to make a correction. OK I made a correction to be more clear.

Traab

2015-04-16, 08:20 PM

I agree to an extent. The Punisher has the toolkit to be a complete terror to anyone he goes up against. but he's usually depicted using kick in the door, start shooting tactics. these tactics shouldn't work all the time. I blame it on lousy comic book writing and what i call the "the Rambo" syndrome. That's the ultimate gun toting badass's ability to stand completely still, spraying and praying everywhere and kill everything everywhere, without ever running out of ammo or getting shot.

i thought I said most of his enemies. let me go back and see if i need to make a correction. OK I made a correction to be more clear.

The Punisher movie where he fought travolta had a smart final battle iirc. He basically used stealth, setup traps, and fought everyone he could one on one or in small groups while HEAVILY armed and armored. When he had to fight a room full of armed guys, he sent up a grenade or something to take out a few of them and disorient the rest, then charged them while they were staggering back to their feet. THAT is clever combat style.

And if you want REAL "Rambo" style, watch Arnold's Commando movie. The final battle is hilarious, Here, watch this part. 200 guys with guns? I barely have to MOVE!(or reload, lol) (https://youtu.be/SIAkLb6PiQA?t=1h7m20s)

Ravian

2015-04-16, 08:36 PM

Yeah Punisher is good but he's not good enough to be Batman. I'm not even saying that as a fanboy, mainly just that as effective Frank is, he's no genius, and he can't rely all on brute force and firepower when it comes to Batman.

Glad of it too. Batman may get a little grating at times, but I vastly prefer him to Punisher. Punisher is an absolutely amoral ******* that I find impossible to sympathize with. Honestly when the entire core of your character is "Superhero that kills criminals with lots of guns." you've already lost me in terms of interest.

TheThan

2015-04-16, 08:57 PM

Traab

2015-04-16, 09:18 PM

Haha, yeah I’ve seen commando. It’s hilarious and ripe with 80s action movie clichés. Love it. I haven’t seen that punisher movie in a long time so it’s a bit fuzzy.

The punisher really isn’t a superhero. He’s a vigilante that’s taking the law into his own hands. He’s judge, jury and executioner. He clashes with superheroes when he meets them; is wanted by the cops and probably the feds as well.

Basically, he starts out using a collapsible bow and arrow set to take out the sentries. He places c4 on a whole bunch of cars, slowly sneaks into the main building, again shooting with his bow and arrow to avoid drawing notice. He may use his knife as well at some point. He is finished with the ground floor, when the partying guards and the boss and his son on the next floor ring down for more champagne. He sends up a bucket of bubbly, with a tripwire attached to more c4. It explodes, he storms the place, taking some damage, but killing the guards. The son is trapped, pinned under heavy furniture he cant move. Frank plops another chunk of c4 attached to a wire trigger into the guys hand and basically says, "Isometric exercises are awesome. You live as long as you can hold your hand up" He then leaves to track down travolta who is injured but still capable of moving. He stops travolta from escaping, gives this rambling speech about his revenge and how he has taken his best friend, his wife, /boom, his son (yeah that happens) and now all thats left is to take his life. He ties travoltas ankle to a car, puts it in low gear and has him dragged into the parking lot, where everything blows up around him in the shape of his skull symbol when seen from above. Yeaaaah.... the ending isnt all that stealthy. :smalltongue:

JDMSJR

2015-04-17, 01:16 AM

I think they would have several battles, but eventually Batman would have sufficient prep time and manage to beat the Punisher and then they would send him....to.....Arkham. This will be regarded as the smartest thing the Gotham police have ever done and Batman will be able to retire three weeks later.

The Glyphstone

2015-04-17, 01:45 AM

Killer Angel

2015-04-17, 06:38 AM

"You put them all in one building for me? Is this my birthday present? Christmas!?"

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with ME!"

Mato

2015-04-17, 11:02 AM

Batman beats on highly trained, lethal-using, super-powered villains. So after the Punisher permanently takes care of the Joker problem, I suspect he'd lose the fight.

But then the Punisher would escape from Arkham and move to another city. Batman on the other hand would be left with a city devoid of so called "super" villains that the cop are unable to handle. And without them constantly breaking free, stealing money, and paying their henchmen your common criminal will turn to getting a job for steady employment. So Gotham's major crime is solved, forcing Bruce Wayne into retirement.

Winner: Gotham, for getting the hero is needed and deserved.

JDMSJR

2015-04-17, 11:27 AM

Calemyr

2015-04-17, 12:07 PM

But Batman's obsession will not let him just stop, so he will be reduced to swooping down to confront jaywalkers and litterbugs.

Batman: (raspy voice) You didn't have your seatbelt fastened...DID YOU!!

I don't keep up on comics much, but do they ever have Batman owning up to his psychosis? "You think I don't realize how batscat crazy this looks? Is? Honestly, the whole thing is absurd and I know it. But when you get down to it, it's the only tool I've found that works. I've tried to fix things. Lord knows I've tried, but nothing I do to fix anything ends up actually fixing it! Out here, at least, I'm breaking the things that are breaking society, and it works. Honestly. Crime is down on the streets, more than I'd ever hoped. Regular crime, including murders and muggings, fewer punks with guns who think a dark alley means anonymity. Yes, there are people I can't stop, not for long. They always come back, eventually. But that's because the only way to stop them would be to kill them... and let's face it, I do not trust myself to make that decision."

Batman would be a whole lot more interesting to me if he owned up like that.

Ranxerox

2015-04-17, 01:05 PM

Mato

2015-04-17, 01:26 PM

Not really, the Joker is a ham. Even his henchmen think it's odd if he doesn't show up on stage in a day or two.

You are confusing the Joker character with the theory Christopher's Joker had a plan all along making him a genius. Harley is better at creating death traps than him, because like you she misses the point.

Kyberwulf

2015-04-17, 01:52 PM

I don't think this is a close match up at all. Sad to say. Almost everything you can say about Frank, you can say about Bruce.

Training- Well Frank is trained in a lot of martial areas. That is almost all he is trained in, where as Bruce is also trained in the martial areas. As well as other stuff. All around Bruce has what Frank has, plus more.

Equipment- Yeah .. we all know who has this one... lol.

Friends and Allies- Yeah again.

Tactics and Effectiveness- Here I think you do Frank a little disservice. He does more then just kick down doors and shoot people. He uses a lot of Ambush tactics and also does a lot of foot work. Same as Bruce. I think it's a little off the mark to say batman is ineffective. He has little control over the way people can get out of prison. It shows how effective he is, in that he is the only one that can really catch people and bring them to be judged.

Personality- Yeah, I hate to say it they are both similar enough, except Frank just seems very one dimensional. I think there is a reason The Punisher is a secondary character, that has problems selling Comics..... Whereas Batman... is pretty much Keeping DC in buisness.. :D

Other Characteristics- Again, everything you can say about Frank, you can also say about Bruce.

Seriously, Everything about Frank can be applied to Bruce but dialed up to 11. I kid, i kid.

Frank and Bruce aren't even in the same league. For one, Bruce operates on a World level. Frank barely works a city. It isn't Franks fault for the most part. The two universes are vastly different. Frank's world strives for a more real setting. Whereas Gotham is so fantastical. IN Marvel Terms, I think it would be like Punisher vs Captain America.

Batman is right though, if he crossed that line and killed. Batman would be a monster. Seriously, think of how scary Batman would be if he said screw it. Picked up guns and stared killing. In that instance, whatever edge Punisher had. is gone. If it was flipped though, Punisher stopped killing and started ... not. what would he become.

TheThan

2015-04-17, 02:23 PM

Wait, you’re saying that batman and the punisher are very close in capability, yet the batman somehow wins by a landslide? Wouldn’t it be a very close fight, since the two are so close in capability?

Anyway I think it’d be really interesting to read the banter between the two. The Punisher and the Batman have similar ideals; however the Punisher has taken the next step and ends the lives of those that are guilty, because he knows that justice isn’t always blind or fair. Batman still clings to a broken justice system. The Punisher does what batman cannot do; lest he become the same sort of monster he hunts down.

edit:
also why would the Punisher get led around by the nose by the Joker. the Punisher would do his research and know all about the Joker and simply kill him instead of letting him manipulate him. Additionally; why would the joker even bother with the Punisher? The Joker's obsessed with batman, why would he pay any attention to a gun toting nut? I mean the punisher doesn't even have a cape!

(it's actually hard to say if the Punisher is really insane. sure it takes someone with a screw loose to do what he does. But does he really qualify for Arkham asylum? Would a captured Punisher even use the insanity plea? i mean it's not like he doesn't know or understand what he does; he has sympathy and compassion for innocents, so it's not like he's a total sociopath. I can see him doing it just to get into Arkham and kill the nuts incarcerated there; but other than that why would he go with it?)

Kyberwulf

2015-04-17, 02:52 PM

I am saying they aren't in the same league. Everything Frank is, Batman is too.. but more so.

Let me put it this way.

Batman is Jason Bourne. Punisher would be..lets see.. Paul Blart.

Killer Angel

2015-04-17, 04:47 PM

I am saying they aren't in the same league. Everything Frank is, Batman is too.. but more so.

I think that you are selling short The Punisher.
He was involved in the Civil War, fighting supercriminals, he can resist telepathic mental control and even Nick Fury respects his combat abilities.

The Glyphstone

2015-04-17, 05:05 PM

No one is saying Frank isn't a badass. He is. But the line about how you can judge a man by the quality of his enemies carries a lot of weight here, and while they have extremely similar skill sets, the difference is in who those skills get used against.

Frank fights super-criminals, but as far as I can tell the only genuine supervillain (as in, actual superpowers) he's been pitted against outside of crossovers is The Russian. He's a street-level hero, and his rogues' gallery are street-level criminals for the most part.

Batman battles supervillains, evil mad scientists, phytokinetic eco-terrorists, and apparently chaos elemental clowns - and that's in his solo books, when he's not part of the Justice League and battling intergalactic warlords or evil gods. And he doesn't just survive, but frequently wins - just surviving the sorts of enemies Batman has puts him an order of magnitude above Frank.

Kyberwulf

2015-04-17, 05:43 PM

TheThan

2015-04-17, 06:22 PM

Batman may have more powerful foes. However he cannot permanently defeat any of them. He may be able to beat them up and lock them in jail, but they keep coming back over and over and over and over and over and over again to the point where it's become a cliche. There is no end in sight. No matter how hard batman fights, no matter how much time and effort he puts into his crime fighting, he cannot win in any significant lasting manner.

He beats up the joker, puts him in jail and the joker is out on the streets before batman’s even changed out of the bat suit. This is a constant reoccurring thing. Granted this is not something unique to batman as it happens to most other comic book heroes. But its particularly noticeable and very prominent occurrence.

But it doesn’t happen to the Punisher that much. Why? Because he kills his enemies. Killing the joker doesn’t somehow make the joker win, the Punisher doesn’t have that teetering morality, there is no slippery slope for which he can fall down, he’s already been there and proven that he can resist turning into the horrible monster that the joker is. What it does is prevent the joker from getting out of jail and committing more crime and terror. That’s what it does. Baring any sort of resurrection or zombification mind you (its comic books it will happen).

With that in mind, is batman really that much of a better crime fighter? He puts criminals in jail and they get out on the streets again in no time. The Punisher kills those criminals and they don’t get back out on the streets again ever. There are no repeat offenders and people will know if they commit crimes the Punisher might just take them out making people think twice before robbing that mini-mart. The batman really isn’t terrifying everyone knows he doesn’t kill, he may hurt but he doesn’t kill combined with the awful manner in which criminals get out of jail (or avoid it all together), it’s no wonder crime is so rampant in Gotham. All his efforts are for naught.

How many people have died because batman can’t kill? Hundreds? Thousands? Guess what if the Punisher was there, then those people would probably still be alive and comparatively few will have died in the possess. In fact; most of those that were killed were probably already criminals already.

Traab

2015-04-17, 06:28 PM

Thats only because he chooses not to finish off his enemies. That doesnt make him somehow weaker than castle, or less able to win a fight, it just means he is capable of routinely defeating bad guys that are several weight classes above castle and his bad guys. Frank is a tough fighter, but he is bantam weight at best, batman is a cruiser weight fighter that can punch at the heavyweight level.

If you want to argue over who is more effective at stopping crime, thats fine, but the argument is over who wins in a fight. And frank castle is way out of his league.

Ranxerox

2015-04-17, 08:05 PM

edit:
also why would the Punisher get led around by the nose by the Joker. the Punisher would do his research and know all about the Joker and simply kill him instead of letting him manipulate him. Additionally; why would the joker even bother with the Punisher? The Joker's obsessed with batman, why would he pay any attention to a gun toting nut? I mean the punisher doesn't even have a cape!

Why would Joker even bother with the Punisher? I was responding to the notion that the Punisher would wind up be put into Arkham where he would kill Batman's entire rogue's gallery. I'm less than convinced that he could get the job done.

Why would the Punisher get led around by the by the Joker? Well, Bullseye tricked him into blowing up a home full of people in The Punisher Vs Bullseye miniseries, and the Joker is both smarter and more evil than Bullseye. So if Bullseye can trick, I figure the Joker should be able to run rings around him.

Kyberwulf

2015-04-17, 09:11 PM

So The Batman doesn't kill the criminals. It's not on him to be Judge, Jury, and executioner. He does what he can to not go that far. Wither Batman is there or not, the crime and corruption would still be rampant. In any case, it isn't really important to this matchup. So far, all that would end up happening, is Batman would roflstomp Punisher. Bring him to justice.... then invariably Punisher would escape. And the cycle would happen again. Batman would kick his ass and put him in jail. Punisher would get out, Batman would put him back in jail. That is assume Punisher wants to try again. I don't think he is that stupid. Seeing how he interacts with other heroes in his dimension. In any case, Batman wins.

TheThan

2015-04-17, 09:33 PM

It just baffles me how people can claim that batman is an effective crime fighter that’s all.

Anyway I still do not see why batman is supposedly so much more formidable than the Punisher.
The essence of batman is that he’s a ninja that throws boomerangs at people while dressed up as a bat.
The essence of the Punisher is that he’s a highly trained commando that’s waging a one man war on crime.

Doesn’t similar training suggest similar capably in a fight?

The punisher got his training by an array of military organizations that specialize in turning regular soldiers into elite weapons. Who did batman receive his training from? wildcat? An elderly furry that’s into boxing… Seriously why is batman so superior to everyone else in existence? This really, really bothers me. Is his secret superpower not losing or something? Seriously the Punisher is hyper dangerous and picking a fight with him is a good way of of ending up dead. Batman cannot approach this fight half-assed or he'll end up riddled with bullets. He will certainly suffer injuries in the battle. It’s not going to be a clean easy win for batman.

If your superhero doesn’t have any legitimate threats then there’s no real conflict and that superhero is boring. That’s why a lot of people have a disconnect with Superman, he’s so powerful there’s very little that can challenge him. Well it’s become the same way with batman if he’s so superior at everything then nothing can challenge him and he’s boring. Nobody can out smart him, out fight him, out brood him or just be better in any field than batman.

I’ve not said that the punisher would bet batman. What I’m saying is that it’s not an easy landslide victory or an auto win for the bat. It’s going to be a tough fight and one batman could lose.

.... sorry if i get ranty. i just hate the overblown version of batman that's so prevalent now a days.

Mato

2015-04-17, 09:38 PM

it's actually hard to say if the Punisher is really insane. sure it takes someone with a screw loose to do what he does. But does he really qualify for Arkham asylum? Would a captured Punisher even use the insanity plea?You don't have to be insane to end up at Arkham. Alberto Falcone, Deadshot, and Ra's Al Ghul have all made a trip in. Maybe you can claim Deadshot is suicidal, but he can logically explain why he chooses to be that way.

Frank fights super-criminals, but as far as I can tell the only genuine supervillain (as in, actual superpowers) he's been pitted against outside of crossovers is The Russian. He's a street-level hero, and his rogues' gallery are street-level criminals for the most part.Bushwacker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushwacker_%28comics%29) has gun-arms (important in a minute), complete with super strength and built in self-healing on top of that. Olivier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivier_%28comics%29) is a demon that can manipulate illusions and has immunity to bullets. Rev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rev_%28comics%29) maybe can raise the dead and while Fisk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingpin_%28comics%29) has no real super powers he is as strong as Bane, smarter as the Riddler, better at running a mob than Falcone, and even as skilled as Captain America in a fight without any criminal insanity slowing him down.

One Fisk is worth half of Batman's enemies since they are limited to gimmicky guns, high strength, and Clayface. But strong weather defeats him. Even the Russian is built out of Adamantine and plastic these days and Damage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damage_%28Marvel_Comics%29) is a walking Batbelt that happens to be equipped with lethal weapons instead of hardly effective knockout-gas.

The Glyphstone

2015-04-17, 10:16 PM

Bushwacker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushwacker_%28comics%29) has gun-arms (important in a minute), complete with super strength and built in self-healing on top of that. Olivier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivier_%28comics%29) is a demon that can manipulate illusions and has immunity to bullets. Rev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rev_%28comics%29) maybe can raise the dead and while Fisk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingpin_%28comics%29) has no real super powers he is as strong as Bane, smarter as the Riddler, better at running a mob than Falcone, and even as skilled as Captain America in a fight without any criminal insanity slowing him down.

Alright, I stand corrected. I was going off his Wikipedia entry, where his villains are an evil Green Beret, a mob boss, a vigilante, a mob boss, a hitman (named Hitman), another vigilante, Jigsaw, another mob boss, a female mob boss, a third vigilante, a mob boss, an evil engineer, The Russian, a mob boss, another mob boss, and an evil CIA agent. The Russian was the only guy you listed on the same list, and the only one with superhuman abilities (though the Green Beret is apparently inhumanly indestructible).

Though I always thought Kingpin was a Daredevil villain. How did Frank beat a guy who's immune to bullets?

Anteros

2015-04-18, 01:03 AM

I don't keep up on comics much, but do they ever have Batman owning up to his psychosis? "You think I don't realize how batscat crazy this looks? Is? Honestly, the whole thing is absurd and I know it. But when you get down to it, it's the only tool I've found that works. I've tried to fix things. Lord knows I've tried, but nothing I do to fix anything ends up actually fixing it! Out here, at least, I'm breaking the things that are breaking society, and it works. Honestly. Crime is down on the streets, more than I'd ever hoped. Regular crime, including murders and muggings, fewer punks with guns who think a dark alley means anonymity. Yes, there are people I can't stop, not for long. They always come back, eventually. But that's because the only way to stop them would be to kill them... and let's face it, I do not trust myself to make that decision."

Batman would be a whole lot more interesting to me if he owned up like that.

That's actually a fairly common plot point in his stories. He's very open about not wanting the Robins to end up damaged like him. He regularly avoids emotional entanglements because he knows he's damaged. He's also said he doesn't trust himself to take the Joker's life is because he knows once he makes that decision he knows he won't be able to stop himself from killing again and again.

Killer Angel

2015-04-18, 03:18 AM

I am not selling The Punisher short. It's just a matter of the power of the settings.

Like I said, everything Punisher does, Batman just does better. Everyone was involved in the Civil War. Batman has been involved in Galactic wars. He fights Superpowered Supervillians.

Then we shouldn't overestimate Bat's abilities. We already had a thread on the subject: Batman is a top level human, probably at the highest peak of potential of humankind: he's trained, intelligent and full of tech resources (BTW, it's the same chassis of Frank Kastle). Realistically, Batman should move within this boundaries. Batman that wins a hand to hand fight with Aquaman breaks my suspension of disbelief, while Batman that is almost killed in the first fight with Predator, makes more sense.

For example: take the eternal "batman Vs superman" debate. Batman, in the end, wins because praparation yadda yadda AND cryptonite.
At this point, Punisher got the same chances to take out Supes. He already got a high-powered Skrull rifle and can shoot targets from miles away: he only needs a crypto bullet and Superman at the power level that we see in DK2 or similar...

comicshorse

2015-04-18, 07:09 AM

Doesn’t similar training suggest similar capably in a fight?

The punisher got his training by an array of military organizations that specialize in turning regular soldiers into elite weapons. Who did batman receive his training from? wildcat? An elderly furry that’s into boxing…

You said it yourself Batman was trained as a Ninja by Ninja and then layered other training on top of it. Its a consistent part of the Batman mythos that he left home and travelled the world for years seeking the finest teachers in existence to help shape him into what he needed to be. ( Obviously by now in various Bat books we've had so many teachers show up Bruce would have had to spend only a few day with each one but that's comics)

Though I always thought Kingpin was a Daredevil villain. How did Frank beat a guy who's immune to bullets?

He pretty much is a Daredevil villain. I don't think Fisk is immune to bullets ( he's certainly not immune to knives) and in the stories I remember Frank either loses or stops Fisk's current scheme and then moves on.

Traab

2015-04-18, 08:07 AM

Then we shouldn't overestimate Bat's abilities. We already had a thread on the subject: Batman is a top level human, probably at the highest peak of potential of humankind: he's trained, intelligent and full of tech resources (BTW, it's the same chassis of Frank Kastle). Realistically, Batman should move within this boundaries. Batman that wins a hand to hand fight with Aquaman breaks my suspension of disbelief, while Batman that is almost killed in the first fight with Predator, makes more sense.

For example: take the eternal "batman Vs superman" debate. Batman, in the end, wins because praparation yadda yadda AND cryptonite.
At this point, Punisher got the same chances to take out Supes. He already got a high-powered Skrull rifle and can shoot targets from miles away: he only needs a crypto bullet and Superman at the power level that we see in DK2 or similar...

They may have a similar "chassis" but its the experience factor that needs to be accommodated for. Batman fights, just in his own sphere of gotham, super criminals like clayface, croc, mr freeze, (he counts, even if its tech based imo) and poison ivy. In addition to that, he is constantly dealing with gun toting henchmen spraying and praying during those fights. On top of that, he is dealing with them non lethally. Ask any professional and they will tell you, the level of skill it takes to fight an armed assailant out to kill you non lethally is WAY higher than shooting back.

Mato

2015-04-18, 09:18 AM

Though I always thought Kingpin was a Daredevil villain. How did Frank beat a guy who's immune to bullets?Other than one (non-super-powered) arc I really don't read the Punisher. But based on what I understand of his character I'd say if bullets don't work then the next thing he would try is C4. :smallwink:

None-crossover Frank does mostly stick to real-world scale, he's had a few oddities like every other comic. It's the cross-over Frank that's scary. Even JL Batman's primary role is strategic and he mostly fights in the background for plot-powered reasons. But Frank has "gunned down" just about everyone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe), even if it took nukes to do it.

Benthesquid

2015-04-18, 09:32 AM

Is JLA/Avengers still in canon? I think Batman pretty handily got the better of Frank there.

Brother Oni

2015-04-18, 09:49 AM

I am not selling The Punisher short. It's just a matter of the power of the settings.

You should bear in mind that the Punisher effectively has two settings: one is a very much real world sort of setting (for example, the Max imprint) where about the only 'superpowered' human he meets regularly is Daredevil, the other is the regular Marvel universe (Tony Stark mentions that the Punisher is seemingly able to travel between two different worlds).

Using the expanded setting for both, Batman would win. Drag Batman into the Punisher's other world and you've got a martial artist versus a soldier with lots of automatic weapons, which isn't going to end well.

Kyberwulf

2015-04-18, 11:18 AM

A couple things to bear in mind. The Punisher is an extremly capable and well trained soldier. He is that though, just a trained soldier. I hate to come off as disparaging against the military. I hold them in high regard. Just because he was trained as a soldier, doesn't mean he is Rambo, if we want to be honest. I think if you ask any real world soldier.. they would scoff at this idea. The reason why those elite units work so well and have such a reputation isn't because they are some kinds of super soldiers. It's because of the men next to them. The trust in someone has your back. They all work as a unit. Being a soldier, even an Elite soldier, doesn't automatically make you a Mystical unkillable hero. Not any more then being a trained "ninja" at any rate.

Let's talk about motivation. Sure Frank has been trained since he left school. He was in the military since then. Seen some stuff that made him question his morals. After he lost his family is where he really got into it though. Since then he has pretty much just given up on everything and kills out of some sense of.. ambiguousness. I don't know much about before He was The Punisher, but it seems like he got to be so driven after the death of his family. He might be driven to kill but as far as I know, he knows that he isn't making a difference. Bruce has.. never known anything other then the pain since he was a child. It is what drives him. Not vengeance, but Justice. He doesn't want any innocent to suffer as he did. He has trained his entire life to stop injustice. It's what keeps him awake in a near obsessive state. Each Innocent that is victimized he sees as a failure on his part. He knows that the Justice system is broke, but it could be fixed. That it would be so easy to cross that line, but it is something you can never really come back from. Both are stuck in and endless perpetual cycle..but Bruce stands for something.

About the whole effectiveness thing. I think it is forgotten that Punisher isn't any more effective really. Crime still exists. People are still being victimized. It doesn't matter if its the same guy doing it over and over, or just some new guy doing the same crimes. It is still happening. If Frank's way was any more better, crime would stop happening. Batman stops criminals and gives them up to the cops. It's up to them to pass judgement. to keep the criminals behind bars. Its so comically insane how often criminals get out or break out.

I think the whole argument about how ineffective Bruce is, is almost ludicrous. That is just a thinly veiled attempt to start an an argument about Capital punishment.

The Glyphstone

2015-04-18, 02:07 PM

He pretty much is a Daredevil villain. I don't think Fisk is immune to bullets ( he's certainly not immune to knives) and in the stories I remember Frank either loses or stops Fisk's current scheme and then moves on.

I was talking about the Olivier guy, who is apparently an indestructible ruler of Hell with a grudge against Frank.

Killer Angel

2015-04-18, 03:33 PM

Ask any professional and they will tell you, the level of skill it takes to fight an armed assailant out to kill you non lethally is WAY higher than shooting back.

Actually, this is a good point.

TheThan

2015-04-18, 03:38 PM

A couple things to bear in mind. The Punisher is an extremly capable and well trained soldier. He is that though, just a trained soldier. I hate to come off as disparaging against the military. I hold them in high regard. Just because he was trained as a soldier, doesn't mean he is Rambo, if we want to be honest. I think if you ask any real world soldier.. they would scoff at this idea. The reason why those elite units work so well and have such a reputation isn't because they are some kinds of super soldiers. It's because of the men next to them. The trust in someone has your back. They all work as a unit. Being a soldier, even an Elite soldier, doesn't automatically make you a Mystical unkillable hero. Not any more then being a trained "ninja" at any rate.

Yeah what you’re saying about elite soldiers working in teams is very true. However the Punisher can employ some of the same tactics a unit would use. He’d have to adapt them for his one man war on crime. Its no different than Batman applying his ninja training to fighting crime.
For both Batman and The Punisher’s there’s a certain amount of suspension of disbelief that goes into it.

Let's talk about motivation.

It depends on what version of the Punisher we’re talking about. Usually the people responsible for the deaths of his family get arrested, put on trial and are then acquitted of that crime. Despite Franks own testimony and other witnesses. Frank Knows who killed his family; he saw them do it; testifying in court; doing it the "right" way. But those criminals didn’t get the justice they deserved. So frank takes it onto himself to seek that justice. The justice system failed him so he is compelled to exact justice on those who are above the law.

The same is sort of true for batman. Even though some version the person responsible is actually found guilty and is thrown in jail. The justice system hasn’t failed Bruce quite the same way; he still blindly clings to it believing that it works. Even though we see in Gotham it clearly doesn’t.

Honestly I don’t know which one is worse; only knowing sorrow, or having your joy torn from you permanently.

comicshorse

2015-04-18, 04:22 PM

I was talking about the Olivier guy, who is apparently an indestructible ruler of Hell with a grudge against Frank.

My mistake. A quick glance at the link indicates this was the time when the Punisher was resurrected complete with celestial uzi (no sadly I'm not joking :smalleek:) which is presumably how Frank affected him

Being a soldier, even an Elite soldier, doesn't automatically make you a Mystical unkillable hero. Not any more then being a trained "ninja" at any rate.

Garth Ennis's mini-series 'Born' (which is excellent btw) hints heavily that during his final tour in Vietnam Frank unwittingly made a made a deal with 'something' that may account for just how hard is to kill
Obviously as Frank isn't always a Vietnam veteran, depending on the writer, this isn't that reliable

leafman

2015-04-18, 06:19 PM

Can I jump in here a sec? Some things I want to point out for fun.

Ask any professional and they will tell you, the level of skill it takes to fight an armed assailant out to kill you non lethally is WAY higher than shooting back.
Batman may be more skilled, but Punisher is the armed assailant. Just sayin'. :smallbiggrin:

Bruce has.. never known anything other then the pain since he was a child. It is what drives him. Not vengeance, but Justice.
But... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckZWT33DQ78) :smallwink:

Batman might be the guy who has fought "gods" and won but he's also the guy who got his back broken by a luchador with super strength. So the question that decides the fight in my mind is: Is Punisher fighting BatGOD or BatMAN? If it is Batgod, Batman wins by using Bat-Anti-Gun Spray and a mystical ninja punch that usually takes a lifetime to learn but Bruce mastered in a week. If it is BatMAN the it is a more fair fight and much harder to call.

I feel like Punisher is being a bit undersold in this thread too. Frank doesn't bust in the doors of the bad guy lair, guns blazing, and somehow come out alive. He recons a location, gets information on floor plans, guard schedules, everything he can. Then he plans his attack. He works like a real elite strike team would but with fewer resources. Punisher doesn't always win, but he also knows when to retreat. I really don't think either would win, unless Punisher doing his best to avoid a confrontation with Batman would be considered a win.

The situation proposed where Batman sets up a fake mob boss meeting as trap assumes that Punisher is stupid enough to rush in for a kill without knowing what he is up against. Punisher would do the same thing Batman would, observe the meeting from a safe location and attempt to gather intel that could lead him to the mob bosses' hideouts. Batman could stake-out the location and wait to see if Punisher shows up, but it may only result in a minor encounter where Punisher retreats or they talk it out and Punisher agrees to leave Gotham.

Kyberwulf

2015-04-19, 12:52 PM

I think Punisher vs. a Robin would be a better match up.

Anyone not including **** Grayson. I think it would be a good one if he fought Damian.

Anteros

2015-04-19, 12:58 PM

Damian has super powers now, so that certainly wouldn't be a good fight. Punisher vs Jason Todd would be interesting. They work on a similar scale, have similar motives, and both use firearms.

Kyberwulf

2015-04-19, 01:47 PM

I thought Damian lost his powers after a while. Although Either Tony or -Pre superpowered Damian would be a pretty good matchup.

Anteros

2015-04-19, 02:52 PM

He might have. He only got them a few months ago, but I stopped reading at that point so I'm not sure what happened afterwards. I assumed they would wait a bit longer before ret-conning his powers away, although I certainly assumed it would happen.

Brother Oni

2015-04-19, 05:59 PM

Kyberwulf

2015-04-19, 07:08 PM

Which again, could be applied to both, Frank and Bruce. They are both exceptions to the norm. Both Driven.

I think Punishers skills are getting blown out of proportion. Yes he was a soldier, that doesn't make him anymore mythical or mystical. Essentialy, Frank is nothing more then a glorified psychopathic Murder. An episode villain for Bones or CSI to take down.

Also. I think people are letting their prejudices, and hate of his "Hype" get in the way of any unbiased judgement of Bruce's skills. Wanting some hero to come in and take Batman down a peg or two. Batman is more then just a Ninja throwing bananas at people. That is just a costume and a shtick he does for a purpose. He is better educated in far more areas, that make him more versatile. He was trained in more Martial Arts masters then just Wild Cat.

Again, the training and experience you get in the military is also being blown out of proportion. As if the training you receive is peerless and second to none. It is good training, don't get me wrong. If your dedicated and talented, it doesn't matter who trains you. You are going to find a way to make that training work to your advantage.

Again, I am not trying to undersell Frank's abilities. He is good at what he does. However, that is a very narrow field of expertise. He is a B class character of his universe. Where as Batman is more A class. Again, not disparaging the military either. I am just keeping a realistic view of the training.

leafman

2015-04-19, 10:51 PM

Mato

2015-04-19, 11:48 PM

Ask any professional and they will tell you, the level of skill it takes to fight an armed assailant out to kill you non lethally is WAY higher than shooting back.
Actually, this is a good point.Ask any professional, the level of skill it takes to fight someone who uses cheap shots and dirty tricks with no sense of honor is WAY higher than some code adhering ninja.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/31103/1604290-wolverine_punisher.jpg:smallbiggrin:

TheThan

2015-04-20, 01:06 AM

He actually just made that personal. :smallbiggrin:

The thing that gets me is that everyone gives Batman a free pass on ridiculousness but other characters of similar training and capability don’t get it?

That’s total favoritism on batman’s part.

Killer Angel

2015-04-20, 06:10 AM

I think Punishers skills are getting blown out of proportion.

While Batman's are perfectly reasonable?

also, what TheThan said.

Traab

2015-04-20, 08:44 AM

Kyberwulf, don't take this as an insult, have you ever read any Punisher comics? Punisher is a master of the lone wolf commando style. He is an expert tactician and strategist, to the point that he has survived years of his war on crime and evaded every law enforcement agency in the States.
You say Punisher is only a B-Lister and Batman is A-List, that's true, but Batman is A-List because of when he was created and is the most popular character in DC comics. I mean they didn't name the company after the title Batman debuted in for nothing. This isn't a popularity contest though.
If you want to "keep a realistic view of the training", Batman should either be a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, know fewer disciplines, or be elderly, because realistically it takes a very long time to master many different martial arts and have expertise in almost every discipline known to man. My point is that you can't apply a strict view of realism to Punisher and not do the same to Batman if you want there to more conversation than "OMG Batman is teh bestest evar!"

When I say B lister I dont mean his popularity. I am talking about the level of bad guys he fights. His bread and butter are unpowered mobsters with guns. It looks like there are or have been a few outlying big guys in his lineup, but really, he spends most of his time gate crashing al pachinos safehouses and killing everyone present. Batman is an A lister because even in his own main continuity, meaning not a part of the justice league, he fights lots of super powered criminals as well as the swarms of gun toting thugs and mobsters. I am very carefully AVOIDING his more insane exploits because they are outliers, crossover events, and bat god stupidity. Just because there was an xmen/star trek crossover where wolverine gets his butt handed to him by a bored spock on at least two occasions doesnt suddenly mean wolverine is a wimp. And just because batman managed to shoot darkseid in the head once and kill him doesnt mean he is a multiversal level fighter. And when you include the fact that batman is doing all this fighting nonlethally it just widens the inherent skill gap between them that much more. Like I said, frank castle is a bantam weight, while batman is a cruiserweight that sometimes punches heavyweight.

Mato

2015-04-20, 10:43 AM

Batman is an A lister because even in his own main continuity, meaning not a part of the justice league, he fights lots of super powered criminals as well as the swarms of gun toting thugs and mobstersJoker's superpower: none, he is insane.
Harlequin's super power: none, she gets bashed in the head if she tries being too effective.
Calendar Man's super powers: none, like's to kill on certain days so Batman can catch him.
Riddler's super power: none, likes to include riddle-based disarm option in bombs.
Catwomen's super powers: none, into leather and nonlethal whips.
Ra's al Ghul's super powers: none, uses swords.
Clock King's super powers: likes to memorize time stamps a droid app can do.
The Falcone family's super powers (multiple): none, they use hand guns.
Black Mask's super powers: none, uses guns.
Deadshot's super powers: none, uses guns.
Two-Face's super power: none, flips a coin to decide if he'll even use a gun.
Electrocutioner's super power: none, uses gimmicky shock gloves.
Penguin's super power: none, uses gimmicky umbrella guns.
Mr Freeze's super power: he's cold, uses gimmicky ice guns.
Firefly's super powers: none, uses gimmicky fire guns.
Killer-Moth's super powers: none, copied some of Batman's gear instead of guns.
Scarecrow's super powers: none, uses gimmicky gas instead of guns.
Copperhead's super powers: none, uses gimmicky gas instead of guns.
:smallsigh:

Deathstroke's super power: plot-powered regeneration for high strength/durability, uses guns.
Bane's super powers: high strength/durability.
Croc's super powers: high strength/durability.
Solomon Grundy's super powers: high strength/durability.
Clayface's super powers: high strength/durability, polymorphic body is used to punch people even harder but weak against squirt guns and rainy days.
Impressive? :smallsigh:

Poison Ivy's super powers: none, but pheromones to control unique plants. Limited to vines, venus fly traps, and hoping Batman is dumb enough to run into a green house (he always does).
Amazing? :smallwink:

Kyberwulf

2015-04-20, 10:43 AM

When I mentioned Punisher's skills are getting blown out of proportion. I only meant that it was unfair to say Batman is getting blown out of proportion, then go directly into saying Punisher is ZOMG THE BEST EVr CUAUSE HE KILLZ TEH PEOPLZ.

And Yes, I read some Punisher. Didn't he die a couple times? Also, he survived the Law Enforcement looking after him because... for the most part. They didn't really care. He kept his killing to "Bad guys".

Wither fair on unfair. Batman has been given characteristics and qualities that just make him outweigh Punisher. I am not saying I like Batman more. I can just see he is far superior to Punisher in every way. And when I say b-lister, I don't mean popularity. Like it has been pointed out, they are just in different Leagues of skill. When Things go down, no one says "Hey lets go get the Punisher's help".

I don't know how else to say things, so people won't resort to saying I am some batfan or something. I can't really think of anyone that is a good match against batman to be honest. Either he would get his butt kicked so easy or he would end the fight so fast. The Punisher, unfortunatly, is in the latter catagory.

Kyberwulf

2015-04-20, 10:46 AM

Punisher Super power -None, uses guns.

See how you can make anyone seem weak when you list them like that.

Mato

2015-04-20, 10:58 AM

See how you can make anyone seem weak when you list them like that.It'd be more like this.
Hitman's super power: none, uses guns.
Sniper's super power: none, uses guns.
Jigsaw's super power: none, uses gimmicky exo-suits with guns.
Barracuda's super power: plot-powered regeneration, uses guns.

Thorn's super power: self-sustainability & immunity to pain for high strength/durability, also uses guns.
Bushwacker's super power: cyborg for high strength/durability, also uses guns.
Damage's super power: cyborg for high strength/durability, also uses guns.
Russian's super power: cyborg for high strength/durability, also likes to steal your gun.

Oliver's super power: demon, illusions and other demonic arts.
Rev's super power: mutant/devil worship for regeneration & resurrection, also uses guns.
Kingpin's super power: he is a superpower, also uses guns. :smalltongue:

Because unlike Batman, everyone in the Punisher's world is a highly trained gun user and they like to use them. And you don't have to reach into crossovers for the Punisher to take on supernatural beings.

Punisher Super power -None, uses guns.
Batman's super power: rich, uses it to use everything but a gun that shoots bullets against mentally ill criminals, including and not limited to; full-suit body armor, capes with psudo-flight capabilities, tanks & jets, cell-phone vision, powered exo-skeletons, a very important fearsome reputation, and in some incarnations: actual guns.
Punisher's super power: none, most of the time all he needs is a stolen cop car's worth of equipment or ten minutes at radio shack.

Traab

2015-04-20, 11:15 AM

Because unlike the punisher, batman doesnt need guns to defeat the people he goes after. As for your lineup of batmans rogues gallery, the various power lists have been altered many many times. Everything from poison ivy being able to make hashirama senju adopt her, to very little plant power and a lethal kiss. So yeah, choose the weaker versions of them. Bane is another one, yeah he is stronger and tougher, SO IS THE HULK. Im not claiming he is within a league of that level, im just pointing out that dismissing someone as "strong and durable" is foolish when in some versions he can pump himself up on venom to the point where he is hurling bank vaults around. And of course in others you have the latest batman movie. Where the various bad guys were intentionally made more "realistic" So no, he isnt that strong.

Mato

2015-04-20, 11:41 AM

Bane is another one, yeah he is stronger and tougher, SO IS THE HULK. Im not claiming he is within a league of that level, im just pointing out that dismissing someone as "strong and durable" is foolish when in some versions he can pump himself up on venom to the point where he is hurling bank vaults around.I get your point but you don't get mine.
The Punisher has killed the Hulk who is stronger than Bane using a gun and strategy.
The ultimate detective strategist Batman has lost to Harley's effective usage of death traps.
Most of Batman's villains do not have super powers. A lot of Batman discussion is based on "Batman fights supers but Punisher don't so easy answer". But in reality, it's the Punisher that fights the supers. And he does this with less equipment and honorary bachelor degrees than Batman. But let me ask you this, how does he do that?

When you get into crossovers, Batman's ridiculous feats seem impressive but no one can counter debate the fact that Batman's primary role is strategist. Not combatant, not the guy who gets the job done, not the guy you call while someone is rampaging through town, he is the plan maker. Throw a new villain at Batman and he loses until he can spend a couple hours in a lab to exploit some weakness or come up with an elaborate counter (that never includes immunity to bullets for some reason), that's his thing. Batman was even once was kicked out of the JL for making plans on how to beat everyone else. Frank Castle doesn't just make plans, he killed everyone. Often by using underhanded tactics like getting them to fight each other before blowing them up because only the end goal matters. And that is the primary contrast between the two characters. In other words, if Batman was tossed off a building the Punisher would continue shooting him all the way down. But if the Punisher was thrown off a building Batman would dash forward to save him and the Punisher would be counting on it as an opening to shoot him.

The Punisher represents finality whereas Batman does everything he can to risk continuation. There is only one end to things and you know better than to think Blackgate/Arkham is it.

Kyberwulf

2015-04-20, 12:33 PM

LOL.. a What if Story line.. that is your go to argument. See, in Canon. Batman has an answer to every superhero, and if wanted to he could neutralize any of them.

From what I remember of Punisher, he mostly relied on ambush tactics. He would come in guns blazing. Once it started to go against him. He would retreat. Rinse and repeat. Same as Batman. If Punisher ran into any supers. He would high tail it to Spiderman or some other super powered guy to get help. Same as Batman. I am sure Punisher has been taking by surprised in his stories as well... But manages to get out of it. Same as Batman. If he couldn't I bet he got some help from other people at the last minute... Same as Batman.

The times when he plays the role of strategist, and doesn't enter the fights is when there is some Super powered Villain. Punisher is hardly that. The only thing Punisher has is a one time Ambush. Which I hardly doubt he could really account for all of Batman's shenanigans. The reason most of batman's villains get the upper hand on him is because they HAVE been fighting him for years.

Seriously, Punisher is just a potential member of Batman's rogue's gallery. Sure he will win some fights, but in the end.. he would pose no more serious threat then The Joker.

Like I said, fair or unfair. Batman is written to be something the Punisher can never be. lol

Lost Demiurge

2015-04-20, 01:12 PM

I remember reading through the Punisher/Bat-man crossover stories...

If I recall rightly, they went something like this...

In the first one, he shows up during Knightfall, ends up running into Azrael as Batman, and the two team up for a little while. That one was kind of forgettable.

The second one, though... The second one was good.

In the second one, he shows up in Gotham, hits a drug deal or something of the sort going down pretty much by chance, and runs into the Joker. He kills every one of the men in Joker's gang, and ends up facing down Mistah J in a dark alley. Joker wounds him pretty badly, but Frank wins out.

Notable Dialogue:
"Hm, your bad day happened when you were an adult, didn't it? I can tell because you're dealing with it like an adult loony! You go around with a gun and kill the bad men to make them stop! Whereas with Batsy, his bad day was obviously while he was a kid. Which is why he puts on a costume, and tries to save the good people."

Frank doesn't give a crap, and the Joker slowly loses his crap, as he realizes that the Punisher's gonna kill him. He ends up begging for his life, but Frank remains crapless. Then Batman shows up, and tells the Joker to run. Frank calls the Bat to task for not finishing the Joker and stopping him long ago, and gives him one hell of a right hook. There's a good two-page spread of it, I think.

Batman's reply?

"I let you have that one, because you thought I deserved it. Now get the hell out of my city."

Frank tries another punch, and Batman owns him so hard that Mack Bolan feels it. And then he gets the hell out of Gotham.

Good story, I thought.

So yeah, that'd probably match how a Punisher/Batman throwdown would go. Frank would get a lick or two in, might have a few sneaky tactics that'd slow Bats down, but Batman would prevail in the end. Give him a hell of a beating, take his resources away, then STRONGLY ENCOURAGE him to leave Gotham.

Because seriously, he's not gonna let Punisher near Blackgate or Arkham. Frank gets in one of those places, there would be nothing but bloody bits inside of a week, and Batsy's rogues gallery would be down to like three guys.

Killer Angel

2015-04-20, 03:25 PM

Batman has an answer to every superhero, and if wanted to he could neutralize any of them.

(snip)

The reason most of batman's villains get the upper hand on him is because they HAVE been fighting him for years.

This works both ways.
Batman can neutralize superheroes, because he knows them since years, and he had time to plan and elaborate strategies.
But when it's the first time that Batman meets an enemy, he's not so prepared.
The first time he faced Predator was almost killed, and had to escape with very serious wounds.
in DKR, the first time he faced the mutant leader, he was almost killed, and was saved by Kelley.

Give Batman some time, and yes, he will be the winner.
But the first time he meets the Punisher, he will seriously risk to be killed.

Forum Explorer

2015-04-20, 03:42 PM

This works both ways.
Batman can neutralize superheroes, because he knows them since years, and he had time to plan and elaborate strategies.
But when it's the first time that Batman meets an enemy, he's not so prepared.
The first time he faced Predator was almost killed, and had to escape with very serious wounds.
in DKR, the first time he faced the mutant leader, he was almost killed, and was saved by Kelley.

Give Batman some time, and yes, he will be the winner.
But the first time he meets the Punisher, he will seriously risk to be killed.

The thing is the Punisher is basically Batman's 'standard kit', a gunfighting lunatic. So a lot of the gear and gadgets Batman brings to a fight is basically aimed to take people like him down already.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I do think Punisher's best chance to win is that first confrontation. Just that Batman already possesses the advantage in said confrontation.

Sapphire Guard

2015-04-20, 05:15 PM

In a hand to hand fight, Punisher might have a shot. But he doesn't really have an answer if Bruce breaks out his fighter jet.

TheThan

2015-04-20, 07:46 PM

In a hand to hand fight, Punisher might have a shot. But he doesn't really have an answer if Bruce breaks out his fighter jet.

Stinger missile... its out in the truck.

Kyberwulf

2015-04-21, 03:34 PM

lol... *facepalm So you think There aren't countermeasure to missiles on planes? Especially ones that are designed for combat.

TheThan

2015-04-21, 04:46 PM

You mean the batjet that was shot down by the joker using a hand gun? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hasipuR7-as).

I mean we’re talking about a purpose built shoulder fired surface to air missile designed to take out fighter jets. If the batjet can't survive a single gunshot how’s it going to survive a stinger?

This is the exact favoritism I was talking about. Batman gets his bat jet which of course is incapable of being shot down by modern military grade hardware designed to shoot down jets. Why? Because he’s the god damn batman and completely invincible; nobody can defeat him no matter what. Of course the Punisher can’t have any equipment that could possibly be used to counter the god damn batman; that would tip the balance out of favor of batman. Even if it makes perfect sense for the Punisher him to have it.

I mean if these two are going to war, wouldn't someone of Franks' training do a bit of studying and gear out to deal with batman's known equipment? that's pretty reasonable really. If batman can do research on the Punisher, can't the Punisher do research on batman?

Besides all the Punisher has to really do to defeat the batjet is to step into a crowded area. What's the batman going to do? shoot into a mob of innocent people just to get him? nope not going to happen.

The Glyphstone

2015-04-21, 05:32 PM

Nah, it'll drop a Bat-Sleeping-Gas-Bomb.:smallcool:

Traab

2015-04-21, 06:11 PM

Didnt somebody post the info showing that the jokers gun would actually be WEAKER than a regular hand gun due to its stupid barrel length? Like, all the gas would escape around the bullet as it travels the length of the barrel, causing it to lose a lot of momentum before it even exits the gun entirely.

Sapphire Guard

2015-04-21, 06:17 PM

Kyberwulf

2015-04-21, 07:32 PM

You mean this

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/97101/1827327-molly_vs._the_punisher.jpg

This guy is suppose to be able to take out Batman?

Brother Oni

2015-04-22, 02:14 AM

You mean this

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/97101/1827327-molly_vs._the_punisher.jpg

This guy is suppose to be able to take out Batman?

I suspect that's a super powered little girl who suckerpunched him.

This guy, who is ruthless enough to go to such lengths as disembowelment and setting people on fire as intimidation and interrogation (http://cdn.bloody-disgusting.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/punisherburnbowel.jpg), would be able to take out Batman.

As I said earlier, the Punisher effectively has two settings, one heroic (standard Marvel universe), one more real world; Batman basically only has the one (heroic).

Heroic Batman versus heroic Punisher, Batman wins as he's fully capable of taking out armed thugs within that setting. Real world Punisher versus a theoretical RW Batman, the Punisher would win, unless you're the sort of person who believes that a unarmed martial artist is capable of taking out a trained gunman without the element of surprise in a real world setting.

To pre-answer one argument, videos like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMC_zBWa28U)* are very specific disarms in set up situations that are advantageous to the martial artists. The only time that a gunman should be getting that close is if the target is lying down on the ground with his hands on his head (one of the few police procedures they get right in movies and TV).
*The person holding the gun in that particular video also has no idea how to use one properly, given his cup and saucer grip on the weapon.

Forum Explorer

2015-04-22, 03:24 AM

I suspect that's a super powered little girl who suckerpunched him.

This guy, who is ruthless enough to go to such lengths as disembowelment and setting people on fire as intimidation and interrogation (http://cdn.bloody-disgusting.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/punisherburnbowel.jpg), would be able to take out Batman.

As I said earlier, the Punisher effectively has two settings, one heroic (standard Marvel universe), one more real world; Batman basically only has the one (heroic).

Heroic Batman versus heroic Punisher, Batman wins as he's fully capable of taking out armed thugs within that setting. Real world Punisher versus a theoretical RW Batman, the Punisher would win, unless you're the sort of person who believes that a unarmed martial artist is capable of taking out a trained gunman without the element of surprise in a real world setting.

To pre-answer one argument, videos like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMC_zBWa28U)* are very specific disarms in set up situations that are advantageous to the martial artists. The only time that a gunman should be getting that close is if the target is lying down on the ground with his hands on his head (one of the few police procedures they get right in movies and TV).
*The person holding the gun in that particular video also has no idea how to use one properly, given his cup and saucer grip on the weapon.

Unarmed? No. But someone with full body armor, flashbangs, tazers, tranquilizers, a remoted controlled armored car, various gas bombs, bolas, and a bunch of other gadgets and gizmos should be able to win, particularly if they can get the drop on the armed gunman.

Drascin

2015-04-22, 05:20 AM

I suspect that's a super powered little girl who suckerpunched him.

She is superpowered, but he did engage the group of powered mutant teenagers and children with intent to kill in a frontal attack so that was kind of inevitable.

The girl, by the way, is Molly "Princess Powerful" Hayes, of the Runaways.

Brother Oni

2015-04-22, 06:02 AM

Unarmed? No. But someone with full body armor, flashbangs, tazers, tranquilizers, a remoted controlled armored car, various gas bombs, bolas, and a bunch of other gadgets and gizmos should be able to win, particularly if they can get the drop on the armed gunman.

True, but then we're getting into scenarios where the terrain matters, along with prep and recon time for both individuals.

She is superpowered, but he did engage the group of powered mutant teenagers and children with intent to kill in a frontal attack so that was kind of inevitable.

The girl, by the way, is Molly "Princess Powerful" Hayes, of the Runaways.

Wasn't that on Joss Whedon's run on the Runaways? Doesn't he absolutely hate the Punisher?

It doesn't matter how skilled or powerful a character is, if the author has it in for them.

Magatsu Izanagi

2015-04-22, 07:07 AM

Wasn't that on Joss Whedon's run on the Runaways? Doesn't he absolutely hate the Punisher?

It doesn't matter how skilled or powerful a character is, if the author has it in for them.
There was an interview (https://web.archive.org/web/20071011220452/http://wizarduniverse.com/movies/wonderwoman/000204454.cfm) that Joss Whedon did for Wizard back when the Wonder Woman live-action movie was still a thing. Here's what he had to say regarding the subject of heroes killing:

"They really shouldn’t kill. Now, that doesn’t mean that they never will, but heroes should not kill and, in particular, they should not use f---ing guns. I think that the glorification of killing and of shooting guns is not the job of a comic book. They can shoot plenty of cool things without having to put bullets in people. That is lazy and amoral and useless. Batman doesn’t kill. It makes his job harder. There’ve been times where I was like, “Just kill the Joker. Just kill him. Kill him.” But the fact that he won’t is part of what makes him who he is. The Punisher? Coward. He’s a coward."

Straight from the horse's mouth. Whedon must have a very bizarre definition of the word "coward" if he thinks the Punisher, of all people, is one.

Tiki Snakes

2015-04-22, 07:20 AM

Straight from the horse's mouth. Whedon must have a very bizarre definition of the word "coward" if he thinks the Punisher, of all people, is one.

Actually, I think it's a surprisingly common usage. I often find people describe other murderers and terrorists that way, and for not dissimilar reasoning.

Sapphire Guard

2015-04-22, 08:03 AM

I suspect that's a super powered little girl who suckerpunched him.

This guy, who is ruthless enough to go to such lengths as disembowelment and setting people on fire as intimidation and interrogation (http://cdn.bloody-disgusting.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/punisherburnbowel.jpg), would be able to take out Batman.

As I said earlier, the Punisher effectively has two settings, one heroic (standard Marvel universe), one more real world; Batman basically only has the one (heroic).

Heroic Batman versus heroic Punisher, Batman wins as he's fully capable of taking out armed thugs within that setting. Real world Punisher versus a theoretical RW Batman, the Punisher would win, unless you're the sort of person who believes that a unarmed martial artist is capable of taking out a trained gunman without the element of surprise in a real world setting.

To pre-answer one argument, videos like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMC_zBWa28U)* are very specific disarms in set up situations that are advantageous to the martial artists. The only time that a gunman should be getting that close is if the target is lying down on the ground with his hands on his head (one of the few police procedures they get right in movies and TV).
*The person holding the gun in that particular video also has no idea how to use one properly, given his cup and saucer grip on the weapon.

Sure, but Bats knows all that too. His strategy for gunmen generally involves hiding, ambushes, tricks and traps, not running straight into their crosshairs. If he thinks he can't win, he'll retreat until he has an advantage.

IN a real world setting, an armoured car or a fighter jet trumps a sole gunman the majority of the time.

leafman

2015-04-22, 09:42 AM

Sure, but Bats knows all that too. His strategy for gunmen generally involves hiding, ambushes, tricks and traps, not running straight into their crosshairs. If he thinks he can't win, he'll retreat until he has an advantage.

IN a real world setting, an armoured car or a fighter jet trumps a sole gunman the majority of the time.

You know what trumps armored cars and fighter jets majority of the time? Going in a building or underground and I hear Gotham is chocked full of buildings and sewers.

Kyberwulf

2015-04-22, 10:39 AM

That was the point of that picture.

Context matters. Saying the batwing could be taken out by the Joker with a handgun was kind of silly.

Saying the Punisher lost to the little girl just cause the author wrote it that way.. is kind of a cop out too.

So with the whole gunman vs Martial Artist statement. It then becomes, it doesn't matter how skilled the Punisher is. As long as you ambush Batman with a gun he autowins. lol. So then ... anyone can take out Batman or Punisher. The Punisher's becomes moot.

The argument against Batman is kind of silly. People are saying that favoritism is being showed to Batman? I haven't seen anything posted that even suggest anything Batman hasn't dealt with already. We are just suppose to assume because The Punisher got some Mystical Gun training from the Mystical Special Forces. He can one shot one of the most Paranoid Heroes in the DC Universe... If not THE most paranoid Hero ever.

IN the end, that's all Frank Castle is, a gun toting psychopathic Killer with a chip on his shoulder. I would say he stands just this side of good. That isn't even the case. He doesn't kill innocents, because he doesn't have a reason to. He is getting a free pass to "Out-badass" Batman, because of his Military training. The Punisher is being showed Favoritism because someone wants to see Batman taken down a peg.

I am not saying Batman can't lose. He can lose, and lost to a lot of people. I am just saying he can't lose to The Punisher. The Punisher is just not good enough. He isn't something Batman hasn't dealt with already. There is nothing super special about The Punisher. (Which to be honest, is the draw and Appeal of The Punisher. He is just a normal ..well normalish guy.)

comicshorse

2015-04-22, 11:11 AM

Context matters. Saying the batwing could be taken out by the Joker with a handgun was kind of silly.

Yes it is, however it happened because an author wrote it

Saying the Punisher lost to the little girl just cause the author wrote it that way.. is kind of a cop out too.

So how is this not just as silly. They both happened because an author wrote it that way. You can't dismiss one as silly and accept the other just because it suits your argument

I am not saying Batman can't lose. He can lose, and lost to a lot of people. I am just saying he can't lose to The Punisher. The Punisher is just not good enough. He isn't something Batman hasn't dealt with already

Really, lets examine Batman's foes.Two-face has no training, he was a lawyer, Penguin is clearly overweight and just has toys, the Joker has unpredictability on his side but again has no training, their minions are mostly street thugs. If Batman can lose to them then why not someone with better training, more experience and better weaponry

There is nothing super special about The Punisher.
Apart from his training as a soldier and then his training as Special forces, his experience as a combat veteran and his years of experience hunting criminals (and thats assuming you don't count the supernatural influences suggested in 'Born')

Forum Explorer

2015-04-22, 12:55 PM

True, but then we're getting into scenarios where the terrain matters, along with prep and recon time for both individuals.

Well sure. Both characters are urban fighters who use both prep and recon time. I just think Batman does it better, having more available resources, experiences, and talent regarding the prep time.

But outside of that, open field? Batman uses the Batmobile shoots the Punisher with some launching net, and drags him around to separate him from his weapons, before going in and finishing him.

Kyberwulf

2015-04-22, 03:32 PM

Because Batman doesn't lose to them. He usually has to withdraw, because he has to foil some dastardly deed that puts innocent people at risk. I don't see, how you don't see that downplaying those villains so blatantly. Just doesn't reek of fanboyism. Again, it has been stated that Punisher would just be end up being a picture on Batman's rogue gallery. Nothing said about Punisher has really set him apart from any one of his current enemies.

I am surprised none of you guys said anything about Punisher just punching Batman to the moon with one punch.

Clearly you guys are letting your problems with Batman's popularity Bias your opinion.

Lurkmoar

2015-04-22, 03:48 PM

Apart from his training as a soldier and then his training as Special forces, his experience as a combat veteran and his years of experience hunting criminals (and thats assuming you don't count the supernatural influences suggested in 'Born')

The possible supernatural origin of Frank making a deal with a malevolent(or not) entity was mentioned when Moonknight was rebooted and they met up. Of course, Moonknight is his own special kind of a crazy.

And then the Punisher was agent for 'angels' or of course his stint as FrankenCastle. I almost wish he was still FrankenCastle.

That said, I think it really depends on the author, the setting and the build up. If you just lock up Batman and the Punisher stripped of armor or gear, I'd give good odds on Batman. Anything else, fair game.

comicshorse

2015-04-22, 03:54 PM

How have I downplayed the villains I spoke of. Tell me about the superpowers Two-Face or Penguin (or Maxie Zeus, or Tweedle Dee or the Riddler...) have that I missed. Or the years of training or combat experience in an actual war

[QUOTE] I am surprised none of you guys said anything about Punisher just punching Batman to the moon with one punch.

I can't help notice you're not producing any quotes of this supposed over playing of the Punisher's abilities

Killer Angel

2015-04-22, 04:23 PM

I am not saying Batman can't lose. He can lose, and lost to a lot of people. I am just saying he can't lose to The Punisher. The Punisher is just not good enough.

As already has been said, Batman lost badly the first time against Predator. I don't think the Punisher is less deadly or dangerous.

Drascin

2015-04-22, 04:29 PM

As already has been said, Batman lost badly the first time against Predator. I don't think the Punisher is less deadly or dangerous.

Basically, here's the thing. Batman and Punisher are two of the most inconsistely portrayed, power-wise, characters in a media (superhero comics) that is already known and positively infamous for a horrendous lack of consistency. Each of them has lost to a complete punk and then six months later with another writer defeated things about four weight classes above them effortlessly while making a pithy quip. You need to set down a run for each character before we can even begin to compare.

comicshorse

2015-04-22, 04:33 PM

The possible supernatural origin of Frank making a deal with a malevolent(or not) entity was mentioned when Moonknight was rebooted and they met up. Of course, Moonknight is his own special kind of a crazy.

I wasn't aware of that though as you say Moonknight is a whole bag of crazy

That said, I think it really depends on the author, the setting and the build up. If you just lock up Batman and the Punisher stripped of armor or gear, I'd give good odds on Batman. Anything else, fair game.

I think even given a city to play in I'd give Bruce the edge but yes locked up and minus gear Frank is going down

pendell

2015-04-22, 04:57 PM

I'm going to stand up for Frank Castle here. While he doesn't have any normal supervillain foes, he has gone up against Doctor Doom and Daredevil both, and succeeded.

He also killed every superhero and supervillain in the marvel universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe).

So I would say that if you simply dumped Bats and the Punisher in a room together, unarmed in their skivvies, it would go either way. Arm them both and the Punisher has a tactical advantage because guns really DO convey a significant advantage.

Give them their vehicles of choice and the advantage shifts to Bats because he has custom aircraft , submarines, you name it.

Drop the Punisher into Gotham and Batman wins; Batman knows the territory far better than he does. Likewise, drop Bats into the Marvel universe and the Punisher comes out a bit ahead.

I think Marvel's intent in creating the Punisher was most likely to create a Batman clone with guns. In a perfectly fair fight, the Punisher would win. What tips the balance the other way is that there's no way Batman would fight fair. He's cunning, brilliant, and astoundingly rich.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Kyberwulf

2015-04-22, 05:41 PM

You are equating Punisher with Predator. An alien species that is stronger and faster then human. -_-

Also in Punisher kills the Marvel Universe.. He had SOOOO much help.

Was this a Doom Bot..or part of Doctor Dooms plans?

Also..daredevil isn't in Batman's league. either.. WAY to many exploitable weaknesses.

I like that by the way. He faced Doctor Doom...and Daredevil. That's like saying...He face Superman, ...and ..Jimmy Olson.

Traab

2015-04-22, 05:56 PM

As for the whole, "He killed everyone in marvel" Ok, sure, lets go with that random storyline. Keep in mind batman is capable of taking down the entire justice league if needed. Said league full of universal or higher tier threats. Batman has at least as many stupidly overpowered single shot feats to his name as the punisher, likely far more.

Kyberwulf

2015-04-22, 06:56 PM

I suppose if we can say Punisher took out the Marvel Universe. WE can say Batman Took out Darksied. Also Starro. and any other Superpowered hero that he had a lot of help on.

Tiki Snakes

2015-04-22, 07:09 PM

He also killed every superhero and supervillain in the marvel universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe).

There's a one-off comic in which he is show doing this, I understand. A cursory bit of research shows that amongst other things his method of "killing the hulk" is to shoot Bruce Banner in the immediate aftermath of a transformation, right?

Except, that's confirmed to simply not work in more than one iteration of the actual character. Including, handily enough, the movie version (https://youtu.be/IYPodDJMjOY).

Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe was never canon, was never meant to be canon and should never be treated as if it was anything other than a fun story. If anything, it's a firm vote for the official Stan-Lee stance on who would win in any particular vs fight. That the only meaningful answer is "whoever the writer wants to win."

TheThan

2015-04-22, 11:13 PM

The argument against Batman is kind of silly. People are saying that favoritism is being showed to Batman? I haven't seen anything posted that even suggest anything Batman hasn't dealt with already. We are just suppose to assume because The Punisher got some Mystical Gun training from the Mystical Special Forces. He can one shot one of the most Paranoid Heroes in the DC Universe... If not THE most paranoid Hero ever.
IN the end, that's all Frank Castle is, a gun toting psychopathic Killer with a chip on his shoulder. I would say he stands just this side of good. That isn't even the case. He doesn't kill innocents, because he doesn't have a reason to. He is getting a free pass to "Out-badass" Batman, because of his Military training. The Punisher is being showed Favoritism because someone wants to see Batman taken down a peg.

I am not saying Batman can't lose. He can lose, and lost to a lot of people. I am just saying he can't lose to The Punisher. The Punisher is just not good enough. He isn't something Batman hasn't dealt with already. There is nothing super special about The Punisher. (Which to be honest, is the draw and Appeal of The Punisher. He is just a normal ..well normalish guy.)

Wait, you’re saying that it’s silly to argue against batman because you might not like him. That’s favoritism on batman’s part. I’m free to like and dislike whomever I want to.

I’ve pointed out that the Punisher is a superior combatant. That his level of skill and training rivals that of batman and a battle between them would not be an easy contest for either of them. You have said that batman wins because he’s better, and have not bothered to explain how and why batman is better. That batman would easily defeat the Punisher for no other reason than he’s Batman.

Sure I dislike the batman fanboysm. I dislike it a lot and feel it’s ultimately bad for the character and even pointed out several things about the fanboyism that I hate. But I haven’t let my dislike of it cloud my opinion of the outcome.

Now just to refresh, I’ve said (and continue to stand by) that Batman would win the scenario, however it would not be an easy confrontation and batman would probably sustain some injuries in taking down the Punisher. It seems like you’re upset that someone has the gall to not hold Batman in super high regards.

Killer Angel

2015-04-23, 12:53 AM

You are equating Punisher with Predator. An alien species that is stronger and faster then human. -_-

:smallsigh:
A cop (Danny Glover) killed one.
A commando (Schwarzenegger) killed one.
Yes, I'm equating Punisher with Schwarzy's character: a deadly elite soldier, unkillable by human enemies and that knows how to kill stronger-than-human monsters.

Lurkmoar

2015-04-23, 05:51 AM

He also killed every superhero and supervillain in the marvel universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher_Kills_the_Marvel_Universe).

Brian P.

That was written by Garth Ennis, and he's not exactly shy about voicing his distaste for super heroes (except Superman). That's a take on the Punisher where his abilities and resources are significantly played up and everyone else got a big heaping helping of stupidity, nerfs and over confidence. So I take it with a grain of salt...

Edit: Actually the Punisher was more of a Mack Bolan type. (http://roninsfortress.blogspot.com/2007/10/mack-bolan-executioner.html)

Kyberwulf

2015-04-23, 08:25 AM

LOL..

So A normal Cop kills a Predator... suddenly Punisher killing one seems... pretty easy. It's almost a mundane task to kill a Predator now.

http://batmanfeats.blogspot.com/p/martial-arts.html

I just found this site. I think its pretty good at explaining his skills. I think people are overestimating Military training, and underestimating Martial Arts training. The only reason Military training is seen as "Better" is because you can kill with it. Martial Arts, you can't really kill anyone in it..when it's used in tournaments and for exercise. Which is the only thing people seem to think of nowadays when they think of it that way. Most Martial Arts where made to defend yourself and kill if need be.

Wither you like or dislike someone shouldn't have a baring in a Vs match. Otherwise it just becomes a popularity contest.

The biggest reason why I think the Punisher would get his ass kicked all the time and every time, with no sweat by Batman. Is Punisher always works alone. The only reason Batman's normal villains get the drop on him, is because they use henchmen and put innocents at risk. The only reason Punisher hasn't been brought to justice by the other heroes of his world, is because... He is the Punisher. He get's a free pass. Because.. i don't know. If he wasn't a named hero. Personally I think everyone who let him go, is responsible for the deaths and injustice he has caused. Just as you claim Batman is for the Joker.

comicshorse

2015-04-23, 09:56 AM

But he doesn't. For most of his career he worked with Microchip. For the storyline where he went up against the Kingpin he recruited a team especially to do this. If the situation requires it he's quite often worked with cops or military or other vigilantes.

[QUOTE] Personally I think everyone who let him go, is responsible for the deaths and injustice he has caused. Just as you claim Batman is for the Joker

Well if you are taking the line that you are responsible for the deaths someone causes if you don't kill them (personally I don't) then yes Bruce is just as guilty as the people who didn't kill the Punisher. Of course the Punisher just kills criminals whereas the Joker murders innocents.....

Most Martial Arts where made to defend yourself and kill if need be.

Where made to defend yourself against people with melee weapons not guns

Personally I'd rank Frank (in Batman terms) with the KGBeast ( as he was originally portrayed not as the bumbler with the comedy russian accent). A highly trained, highly motivated, highly experienced killer who can push Bruce to his limits but can't quite match him

Kyberwulf

2015-04-23, 10:06 AM

I didn't say Batman was responsible..... someone else said that. Someone else said he works alone to.

comicshorse

2015-04-23, 10:12 AM

I didn't say Batman was responsible..... someone else said that.

I know I was merely pointing out that if you apply it to the Punisher you must apply it to Bruce as well

Killer Angel

2015-04-23, 01:38 PM

I think people are overestimating Military training, and underestimating Martial Arts training. The only reason Military training is seen as "Better" is because you can kill with it. Martial Arts, you can't really kill anyone in it..when it's used in tournaments and for exercise. Which is the only thing people seem to think of nowadays when they think of it that way. Most Martial Arts where made to defend yourself and kill if need be.

Bruce Lee's movies? Kill Bill? are you seriously claiming that we see martial arts as non-lethal disciplines?

The biggest reason why I think the Punisher would get his ass kicked all the time and every time, with no sweat by Batman. Is Punisher always works alone.

Wrong. Of course, Microchip isn't able to help him in hard combat, but to be alone is a different thing.

Kyberwulf

2015-04-23, 02:58 PM

comicshorse

2015-04-23, 03:24 PM

Yes, it keeps being represented that to be a soldier somehow, is superior to being a martial artist.

As previously pointed out martial arts aren't designed to deal with guns. Guns give such a clear advantage in lethality and range that being trained in using them is better than being trained how to punch someone

is superior to using "nonleathal" weapons

Guns are superior to non-lethal weaponry, no non-lethal weapon has the range of a decent firearm. Not to mention the ability to fire multiple times or reliably put the target down

In essence, Frank IS just a Martial Artist.

What ?

It is easier to shot people. Which is all the Punisher does. It has been stated, and is true. That using non-lethal weapons and tactics take more skill and training. Which Batman does on a much larger scale. He does more then just kick in the door and shot everyone dead. That is why it is so much more difficult for him

Indeed Bruce has taken the more difficult path. However this is a disadvantage as he is limiting himself to less efficient methods. For good moral reasons perhaps but it doesn't stop it being a disadvantage

The Punisher suffers no real repercussions for his actions. He is just as fantastical a character as Batman. If a guy went around murdering people willy nilly like Frank does. There would be so many people after him. Especially in a world full of heroes. It doesn't matter how skilled someone is. They will be found. The only reason Frank hasn't been "found" and brought to justice. Is because of Plot Armor. The only real reason that Frank hasn't suffered any permanent damage. Is because he is written to be "Badass". The difference between Frank and Bruce, is Bruce recognizes he is human. He takes precautions so that he will survive and suffer as minimal amount of damage as possible. To be fair, both characters rely on Plot Armor to survive. I just find it hypocritical to pretend Frank doesn't at all, and it's all skill with him.

I don't remember anybody suggesting this

And that's why Batman would win.. easily. If you removed all the plot contrivances away. Batman learned from his mistakes. He got body armor

So does the Punisher

better weapons and equipment.

See above

He needs friends and allies to lean on

And as I, and others, pointed out the Punisher has those

He pretty much relies on Plot convenience to survive. He relies to heavily on the Rule of Baddassery to live. Relies to heavily on Storyland rules that allow him to get away with murder and suffer no real consequences.

And this differs from Bruce how ? These are comics remember

That is why, fair or unfair. Batman would win. Again, easy. He is just written as more trained in far more areas of study.

Again this is a disadvantage. Bruce may speak ancient Sanskrit, that doesn't help him fight the Punisher, Bruce may know archaeology, industrial chemistry and many other disciplines and they don't help him fight the Punisher. Logically speaking ( yes I know comics, go with it) this is another disadvantage. Bruce has devoted time to many important disciplines to make him the World's Greatest Detective the Punisher has devoted all his time to learn how to kill people (or practicing killing people)

pendell

2015-04-23, 03:45 PM

The way I see it is that there's no guaranteed win in this scenario. There is a path to victory for the Punisher (BOOM! Headshot) and there is a path to victory for the Batman (POW! SOCK! WHAM!) .

Think of it like two sports teams. It may be that one team (say, the champion Yankees) is incomparably better than another (say, the original Mets) but that doesn't mean victory for the superior team is assured, mathematically. On any given Sunday, given any combination of flukes or injuries, the weaker team can still win.

Take Xykon in the OOTS prequels. He was entirely outclassed by Master Fyron but defeated him because he leveraged his abilities in some arena other than magic. Again, facing Dorukon, Xykon stacked up evenly on paper but , in fact, won because while Dorukon had a much wider spellbook Xykon had one ability he was not prepared to counter.

Between the Batman and the Punisher, I see the Batman as an all-around detective/wizard while the Punisher is built more specifically to kill people.

So which one will win? That depends entirely on how the combat is set up.

There is simply no setup you can create where Batman is guaranteed a victory all the time -- but neither can you do it for the Punisher either.

I think it's fair to say that the Batman is superior because, due to his wealth and experience, there are a lot more possible scenarios which favor Batman over the Punisher. But in a minority of those scenarios -- direct combat -- the Punisher has an edge if for no other reason than he is armed. First rule of gunfighting: Bring a gun. (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/joecarter/2012/11/marine-corps-rules-for-gunfighting/).

That doesn't mean the Punisher is guaranteed to win those scenarios, but I believe he DOES have an advantage in that subset he trains for.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

leafman

2015-04-23, 04:11 PM

Yes, it keeps being represented that to be a soldier somehow, is superior to being a martial artist. That to use a Gun, is superior to using "nonleathal" weapons. It is being represented as if though being trained by the Military gives you some mystical abilities to not lose a battle. When it isn't the skill of the individual that makes the Military strong. To an extant, it does matter. However, it is the PEOPLE you have around you that gives you the true ability to be badass and get the job done. To learn to Soldier, is just to learn to be part of something more then just yourself. It's to learn to be part of a unit. To say that Frank would win, just because of... or the Implications of Military training is somehow SUPERIOR to Martial Arts is disingenuous at bast. In essence, Frank IS just a Martial Artist.

The training Frank has received from the military didn't only teach him to work in a unit, it taught him to be a lone wolf as well. Why? Because when you fight in a small Spec-Ops tactical unit, there will be plenty of times when you can't rely on your team for support
The hand-to-hand combat taught to soldiers is a martial art or rather a mixture of martial arts, just because it doesn't have a name like Karate or Ninjutsu or Boxing doesn't make it inferior.

It is easier to shot people. Which is all the Punisher does. It has been stated, and is true. That using non-lethal weapons and tactics take more skill and training. Which Batman does on a much larger scale. He does more then just kick in the door and shot everyone dead. That is why it is so much more difficult for him. Caught up in traps and hostage situations. Trying to not kill anyone. Unless Punisher uses innocents as hostages, Batman will bring his considerable skill and special weapons to bear on the Punisher.

No it isn't "all the Punisher does". The Punisher gets into situations where guns aren't available or not the best method of attack all the time. Using non-lethal weapons might take more skill and training but it doesn't make the user or the method automatically superior. Writing software in binary take more skill and training than modern programming languages, but it isn't the superior way to write software. Efficiency is the key.
I'll say this again and maybe it will sink in this time, the Punisher doesn't just kick in the door and start shooting. He recons the area, gathers information, plans his strike, preps the area so he has a tactical advantage, then he attacks. And it isn't a shoot wildly and hope he hits something attack, there is stealth and traps involved. Yes, sometimes breaching a room, tossing a flash bang and shooting every bad guy in the room is the method Punisher uses, but it isn't the only way he operates.

The Punisher suffers no real repercussions for his actions. He is just as fantastical a character as Batman. If a guy went around murdering people willy nilly like Frank does. There would be so many people after him. Especially in a world full of heroes. It doesn't matter how skilled someone is. They will be found. The only reason Frank hasn't been "found" and brought to justice. Is because of Plot Armor. The only real reason that Frank hasn't suffered any permanent damage. Is because he is written to be "Badass". The difference between Frank and Bruce, is Bruce recognizes he is human. He takes precautions so that he will survive and suffer as minimal amount of damage as possible. To be fair, both characters rely on Plot Armor to survive. I just find it hypocritical to pretend Frank doesn't at all, and it's all skill with him.

And that's why Batman would win.. easily. If you removed all the plot contrivances away. Batman learned from his mistakes. He got body armor, better weapons and equipment. He learned that he can't fight the battles by himself. He needs friends and allies to lean on.

Whereas Punisher regressed in his Military training. He pretty much relies on Plot convenience to survive. He relies to heavily on the Rule of Baddassery to live. Relies to heavily on Storyland rules that allow him to get away with murder and suffer no real consequences.

That is why, fair or unfair. Batman would win. Again, easy. He is just written as more trained in far more areas of study. Punisher is just written as some ultimate Action films fanboys fan fiction.

Frank Castle is one of the most wanted vigilantes in his universe. There have been many stories focusing on that plot line. He works hard at avoiding the authorities. He gets help to stay on the run through stolen identities (from the people he's killed) and officials that believe in his cause or wish they could do what he does. He has been caught and put in prison. He has been killed and resurrected. He's lost an eye (he got it back somehow). Frank knows that he is only human, that's why he wears armor.

Traab

2015-04-23, 04:18 PM

I want to know, what does frank castle have, that batman hasnt defeated a dozen times or more? Guns? He takes out gunmen all the dang time. Military training? Again, batman has taken out plenty of ex military types. The only thing that separates frank castle from the hundreds of mooks batman takes out with casual ease on a daily basis is plot armor. Batman fights frank castles a thousand times a year. How often does frank castle fight batmen?

comicshorse

2015-04-23, 04:28 PM

Traab

2015-04-23, 04:54 PM

On the contrary mostly Batman fights crooks, semi or no trained street thugs. He rarely fights ex-special forces types and Frank is more uniquely dedicated and driven (arguably because he's more than a bit insane) than even most special forces. Not to say more experienced as he has dedicated his existence to fighting criminals. Not to mention a smart tactican.
As I said the best example of Frank that Batman has faced is the KGBeast who Bruce definitely didn't handle with 'casual ease'

Daredevil say, quite a bit

Daredevil is NOT a batman. Unless they rebooted him, while he has a lot of martial arts training, he has laughably large vulnerabilities to sound and smells, and his "tech" is limited to a personalized beat stick with a grapple hook attachment. Anyone that can be defeated by suddenly starting a lawnmower nearby him is not a batman. As for kgbeast, yeah, he is pretty close, so I can grant you that one, but he is also a cyborg. So by definition stronger and tougher than frank castle can be. KGBeast is basically Frank Castle+.

But I still prefer to look at it this way. Both of them fight mobsters on a regular basis. Frank goes in and kills them, while batman goes in and captures them. Batman simply displays superior skill and ability imo. Frank can stand back and fill the air with lead and c4, while batman has to dodge dive and avoid all over the place, disable the gunmen one at a time, and do all this in such a way that not only does HE not get killed, but none of the bad guys die either. Not just to his actions, but through friendly fire from the fellow thugs. That takes INSANE levels of skill to pull off.

comicshorse

2015-04-23, 05:18 PM

Daredevil is NOT a batman. Unless they rebooted him, while he has a lot of martial arts training, he has laughably large vulnerabilities to sound and smells, and his "tech" is limited to a personalized beat stick with a grapple hook attachment.

The vulnerabilities aren't that bad unless the enemy is seriously prepared for them (which the Punisher has been on occasion) and they do give him super powers Bruce doesn't possess. And I'd say Daredevil is in Batman's league as a Martial Artist as he was chosen by Stick out of everybody in the world to be groomed as a potential member of the Chaste.
No arguments Bruce has him beaten on gear and resources.

As for kgbeast, yeah, he is pretty close, so I can grant you that one, but he is also a cyborg. So by definition stronger and tougher than frank castle can be. KGBeast is basically Frank Castle+.

Actually the KGBeast isn't a cyborg ( or at least he wasn't all the times I've seen him fight Bats). He does have a artificial hand but that wasn't a choice, he had to cut his own hand off to escape Bruce ( but did kill the guy Bruce was guarding, so, no-score draw)

But I still prefer to look at it this way. Both of them fight mobsters on a regular basis. Frank goes in and kills them, while batman goes in and captures them. Batman simply displays superior skill and ability imo. Frank can stand back and fill the air with lead and c4, while batman has to dodge dive and avoid all over the place, disable the gunmen one at a time, and do all this in such a way that not only does HE not get killed, but none of the bad guys die either. Not just to his actions, but through friendly fire from the fellow thugs. That takes INSANE levels of skill to pull off.

Indeed but taking a disadvantage is a disadvantage. Bruce may have insane skills but if he hobbles himself then he is dragging those skills down. It may be laudable but its giving the Punisher an edge in any conflict

Also Frank doesn't 'fill the air with lead' unless he's absolutely sure there are no innocents around. He usually prefers picking his time and place and taking the targets precisely

lord_khaine

2015-04-23, 05:18 PM

If its an actual fight between them, and not a contest in either stealth (who can ambush the other guy), or detektive work (who can find the other one first).

Then i would have to say Frank had the biggest chance of winning as long as both contestants were stripped of their plot armor.

If not then he wouldnt stand a snowballs chance in hell of getting anywhere near batman... :smallamused:

lord_khaine

2015-04-23, 05:22 PM

The vulnerabilities aren't that bad unless the enemy is seriously prepared for them (which the Punisher has been on occasion) and they do give him super powers Bruce doesn't possess. And I'd say Daredevil is in Batman's league as a Martial Artist as he was chosen by Stick out of everybody in the world to be groomed as a potential member of the Chaste.
No arguments Bruce has him beaten on gear and resources.

I second this notion, Daredevil is a completely different cup if fish here, his unarmed skills are great enough to have let him on one occation beat an enraged Spiderman in close combat. It was descriped as a extremely unlikely ending, but still something that takes an insane level of skill.

Traab

2015-04-23, 08:03 PM

This is from the wiki,
In addition to being the master of several martial arts, his strength was cybernetically enhanced, and he had also mastered the use of every deadly weapon known. At the time of his first appearance, he was rumored to have killed at least 200 people, including Anwar El Sadat.

Later on it mentions how he cut off his hand then had a gun cybernetically added to it when batman had his arm caught by a rope or whatever.

Roland St. Jude

2018-08-16, 10:52 AM

Here we go again. Call me a Batman fan how much you want. But Punisher is an analogy of Deadshot in my opinion. And Batman will not have a single problem with defeating him. He is always ahead of you.Sheriff: Please avoid thread necromancy.