Belkar vs. Thog: Battle of the Lovable Raging Psychos

[Freelance Henchman]

I haven't seen this particular vs.-thread yet, so here it goes: assuming no unfair advantage on either side (über-weapons or items, higher ground/ambush etc.) who would win?

I'm assuming Belkar employs Two-Weapon-Fighting with Masterwork daggers and Thog gets a Masterwork Greataxe; both have appropriate armor. Belkar is apparently Ranger12/Barbarian1 and Thog is Barbarian11/Fighter2 if I remember correctly, so both have the same BAB apart from strength bonuses.

So: coin toss or clear winner? :smallconfused:

[Justinian]

In terms of pure mechanics? Thog is optimal, Belkar is not. All things being equal, Belkar would lose.

TWF rangers are never as effective as their longbow-centric comrades, and Belkar neither has access to his spells, nor an animal companion.

[lacesmcawesome]

I haven't seen this particular vs.-thread yet, so here it goes: assuming no unfair advantage on either side (über-weapons or items, higher ground/ambush etc.) who would win?

I'm assuming Belkar employs Two-Weapon-Fighting with Masterwork daggers and Thog gets a Masterwork Greataxe; both have appropriate armor. Belkar is apparently Ranger12/Barbarian1 and Thog is Barbarian11/Fighter2 if I remember correctly, so both have the same BAB apart from strength bonuses.

So: coin toss or clear winner? :smallconfused:

Belkar, clear winner, he's the good guy. It's the only deciding factor.

But WAIT. Size mods. I think Thog wins because Belkar has deal damage with smaller damage die.
(unless I am being stupid)

[Cubey]

Belkar, clear winner, he's the good guy.

:smallconfused:

Anyway, I'd root for Belkar, because Thog is overrated (still funny and loveable, but overrated!). But Thog's build is more optimised - STR-base melee fighters and halfings simply don't mix mechanics-wise.

[Freelance Henchman]

Belkar neither has access to his spells, nor an animal companion.

Why? Too low wisdom? So low he can't even summon his animal companion?

[Threeshades]

Why? Too low wisdom? So low he can't even summon his animal companion?

exactly.

he never casted a spell so far (he would need at least a wisdom of 11 to cast 1st level spells) and vaarsuvius needed to cast owls wisdom on him in order to let him use the cure critical wounds scroll on Elan back in dorukan's dungeon.

So he has wisdom 10. no more, no less.

[Freelance Henchman]

exactly.

he never casted a spell so far (he would need at least a wisdom of 11 to cast 1st level spells) and vaarsuvius needed to cast owls wisdom on him in order to let him use the cure critical wounds scroll on Elan back in dorukan's dungeon.

So he has wisdom 10. no more, no less.

I see. What a waste, there's some useful spells he misses out on. Heh, I guess thats one more humorous thing about Belkar I didnt know, he's a Ranger too "unwise" to use spells!

[Spiky]

Belkar. He'll bounce around like his long battle with Miko and wear thog down. I also have a feeling thog isn't carrying any potions to heal up, whereas Belkar certainly would be.

[Freelance Henchman]

Belkar. He'll bounce around like his long battle with Miko and wear thog down. I also have a feeling thog isn't carrying any potions to heal up, whereas Belkar certainly would be.

I was assuming more or less equal equipment and no way for one fighter to evade the other. A "thunderdome" or cage fight, if you will, i.e. no hiding and ambushing for Belkar.

[S.ilver]

I was assuming more or less equal equipment and no way for one fighter to evade the other. A "thunderdome" or cage fight, if you will, i.e. no hiding and ambushing for Belkar.

See, now that would actually be unfair for Belkar, because we know he put skill points into hide and move silently (he told Miko this in the warehouse), so by saying he can't hide and ambush, you're depriving him of a valid tactic that he invested part of his build into.

[Freelance Henchman]

See, now that would actually be unfair for Belkar, because we know he put skill points into hide and move silently (he told Miko this in the warehouse), so by saying he can't hide and ambush, you're depriving him of a valid tactic that he invested part of his build into.

True. But any character will have his own optimal setting, and it may be conceivable there is simply no way to go hide in some situations. Not that Belkar absolutely requires it, he is no Rogue, and he smacked all those hobgoblins one-on-one.

[MReav]

So he has wisdom 10. no more, no less.

I argue for Wisdom 9, because there is debate as to whether or not the scroll sets the required Wisdom, and he doesn't have much common sense.

[Mordokai]

I'd say Thog. In a straight forward melee battle, he would wipe the floor with Belkar.

[kerberos]

exactly.

he never casted a spell so far (he would need at least a wisdom of 11 to cast 1st level spells) and vaarsuvius needed to cast owls wisdom on him in order to let him use the cure critical wounds scroll on Elan back in dorukan's dungeon.

So he has wisdom 10. no more, no less.
Except for one thing, namely that Rick has stated that he bends the tules when it's funny. Belkars behaviour consistently indicates a wisdom score much lower that 10,. SO IMO he has a wisdom score of perhaps 5 and that Rick simply bended the rules in this particular instance in order to make that joke. It's certainly not an open and shut case that his wisdom is 10.

[happyturtle]

Belkar has a low wisdom, but he's smarter than Thog by a lot. But Thog is bigger. I haven't played since 1st ed, so no clue about how the game mechanics would factor in.

Maybe it would come down to who won initiative?

[Demented]

Neither are very likely of being able to kill the other in one round.

In a Thunderdome setting, thog has the advantage. He's a straight melee fighter in a straight melee situation. Though, if the thunderdome is spiced up with some obstacles, Belkar could make the best of things.

Also, Belkar is very capable of convincing Thog to rage against the thunderdome crowd and start killing the spectators... which would qualify as a win for both of them.

[gnownek]

Miko beat the whole order without Durkon.
So Miko > Roy + Haley
Roy + Haley beat Thog
So Miko > Roy + Haley > Thog
Belkar beats Miko if he exploits opponents low Spot
So Belkar > Miko > Roy + Haley > Thog where he exploits low Spot

Thog has low spot so Belkar sniping will win. Face to face, fighters beat rangers. Belkar is likely to jump to high ground then missile Thog to death.

[Leather_Book_Wizard]

The battle between them would destroy the world. Then they continue the fight through hollow time and space. Finally a speck of cosmic matter would spin Belkar outta control. Thog wins, barely.

[Sean92k]

I think belkar would win, i have prac no knowledge on D&D stuff, but from real life fights belkar is small, small enough to take out thogs legs. If belks gets a few good knee stabs thog cant stand and has less ability to strike and belkar can pick away at him while he rolls around on the floor. Just IMO

[Reptilus]

Thog also gets a damage mod of almost 600, as I recall.

[Gez]

In an arena fight? Thog is stronger.

In an unbound environment? Belkar is more resourceful. See his fight against Miko or against the Yakyak the Inigobold.

[Studoku]

Thog also gets a damage mod of almost 600, as I recall.

That's greatly exagerated. He actually does about d12 (greataxe) +6ish(strength)+ 3 (magical weapon)

I still wouldn't want to be hit by that though.

Belkar on the other hand deals d3+strength+enchantment bonus.

:thog:So Thog wins. Yay.

[Freelance Henchman]

Belkar on the other hand deals d3+strength+enchantment bonus.


But he gets extra attacks as well because of TWF. TWF seems to be mostly inferior to a two-handed weapon unless you have elemental/vampiric enhancements on the weapons. I suppose I would bet on Thog in an arena/cage battle.

[Pronounceable]

Belkar wins UNLESS he accidentally hits a puppy or a clown.

[Freelance Henchman]

Belkar wins UNLESS he accidentally hits a puppy or a clown.

If there any puppies or clowns present, it's almost a given that Belkar will hit them. I mean, come on, it's Belkar! :smallcool:

[Grizzt]

There is no way that Belkar can beat Thog. Roy had SOME difficulty beating him and Belkar is unoptimized.

Besides, I like Thog

[Orzel]

In terms of pure unbuffed combat ability with similiar weapon, I'd rank the major characters as

Miko
Belkar
Roy and Thog
Fallen Miko
Durkon
Elan, Nale, Haley, and the rest

Paladin Miko is just higher in level. Belkar is a combat ranger with above average optimization. Roy is a decently optimized fighter. Thog is a decently optimized barabrian with no "hard to get" feats. Durkon is a battle cleric.

The only ones optimizated for combat are Belkar, Roy, and Thog. Belkar has good feat, attributes, and skills put junk weapons. Roy has good feats and weapon but horrible attributes for a fighter. Thog has good attributes and decent feats but a crap weapon and few skills.

I belive Belkar has a higher base Con than Thog since he only has been seriously injured once and that time he was letting Miko hit him. When they both rage, their CON equalize due to Thog's Greater rage. Belkar also probably has the the better AC due to his DEX and Racial AC. Thog win on attack bonus and damage due to his higher strength. Belkar's racial attack roll bonus done help if Thog powerattacks and Belkar has the better ranged attack bonus expcially with thrown weapons.

Since Thog will be power attacking, Thog has Damage and HP and Belkar has Accuracy and AC.

But Belkar won't start the fight fair at all.

[Freelance Henchman]

Thog has good attributes and decent feats but a crap weapon and few skills.

I was assuming equivalent equipment (with über-cheese-items all bets are off anyway) and a simple melee battle without much way to evade/hide/ambush etc. So Belkar gets 2 good daggers and Thog a good greataxe. I assume that Belkar has to wear light armor so he keeps his DEX bonus and special ranger TWF, while Thog can wear medium armor as a barbarian. No extra magic items allowed.

[Green Bean]

Belkar. He'll bounce around like his long battle with Miko and wear thog down. I also have a feeling thog isn't carrying any potions to heal up, whereas Belkar certainly would be.

The problem with that is that in the Belkar/Miko fight, they had the same speed (30ft/round). Thog moves much faster than Belkar because of fast movement, meaning once the halfling is found, he won't be able to escape.

[Orzel]

I was assuming equivalent equipment (with über-cheese-items all bets are off anyway) and a simple melee battle without much way to evade/hide/ambush etc. So Belkar gets 2 good daggers and Thog a good greataxe. I assume that Belkar has to wear light armor so he keeps his DEX bonus and special ranger TWF, while Thog can wear medium armor as a barbarian. No extra magic items allowed.

Weapons doesn't matter since neigher is a strong point. I only mention weapons because i was using Roy in the comparision and Roy's +5 starmetal weapon is the only thing keeping him decent as a poorly optimized but specialized fighter. Belkar has the best combined AC, AB, damage, saves, and HP of the known characters at his level. They're all above average but people beat him in certain areas (Thog HP and damage, Roy AC, Haley Potential damage, etc).

[Archibardo lv11]

FE orc (and human*) + six attacks per round..... Thogs dead in 3 rounds.

*that why he beats miko. (+ Is tactics)

[Kreistor]

Tossing the math of TWF and two handed weapon fighting into Excel, fighting with a single two handed weapon is superior to TWF. Belkar's fighting style is inferior to Thog's.

Thog has the further advnatage of damage reduction. Belkar's lots of small attacks will hit Thog's 2/- or 3/- DR. DR is best against lots of little attacks, which is Belkar's style.

Thog also has Greater Rage, presumably. So he gets more Str and HP out of his Rage, as well as his Rage lasting longer.

I think it's pretty much a rock-paper-scissors situation. Thog's rock would smash Belkar's scissors.

[jindra34]

Tossing the math of TWF and two handed weapon fighting into Excel, fighting with a single two handed weapon is superior to TWF. Belkar's fighting style is inferior to Thog's.

Thog has the further advnatage of damage reduction. Belkar's lots of small attacks will hit Thog's 2/- or 3/- DR. DR is best against lots of little attacks, which is Belkar's style.

Thog also has Greater Rage, presumably. So he gets more Str and HP out of his Rage, as well as his Rage lasting longer.

I think it's pretty much a rock-paper-scissors situation. Thog's rock would smash Belkar's scissors.

is V the paper then...

[Green Bean]

is V the paper then...

No, V is an orbital death ray. :smallcool:

[Dethedrus]

From a game mechanics standpoint, Thogg is the winner, as his rage is a class ability not a morality inhibiting character motivation ;) One good smack and we have a halfling homerun in no time flat.

EDIT: I realized that I'd forgotten Belkar's brief flirtation with the barbarian class. Irregardless, I don't see puny halflings ripping apart jail cells like Thogg when he gets in touch with his inner (and out) greenness. 'nuff said.

That and the fact that his love of puppies trumps Belkar's desire to, uh, kill everyone on sight.

[Cifer]

In terms of pure unbuffed combat ability with similiar weapon, I'd rank the major characters as

Miko
Belkar
Roy and Thog
Fallen Miko
Durkon
Elan, Nale, Haley, and the rest
You might want to reconsider that. Miko's place at the top is more or less undebated, but Belkar, while killing lots and lots of hobgoblins, is hampered by his weapons and lack of useable class features. I'd definitely place him below Roy who was shown beating Thog without major problems. Durkon, however, should be placed at least along with Roy - when he intervened in combats, he packed a major punch (which is to be expected - he is CoDzilla; viewing him without the buffs he can use on himself makes no sense, however)


So the new ranking would be:

Miko
Roy and Durkon
Thog
Belkar without MoJ
The others

[Orzel]

You might want to reconsider that. Miko's place at the top is more or less undebated, but Belkar, while killing lots and lots of hobgoblins, is hampered by his weapons and lack of useable class features. I'd definitely place him below Roy who was shown beating Thog without major problems. Durkon, however, should be placed at least along with Roy - when he intervened in combats, he packed a major punch (which is to be expected - he is CoDzilla; viewing him without the buffs he can use on himself makes no sense, however)


So the new ranking would be:

Miko
Roy and Durkon
Thog
Belkar without MoJ
The others


That's buffed with their curent weapons.

If unbuffed with equal weapons, Belkar could be Roy silly with Roy's poor Dex and Con. Durkon's phyical stat as low unbuffed since he is primarily a cleric and boosted his Wis with levels rather than Str, Dex, and Con. Buffed Durkon could beat any of the above in melee due to 'Zilla. Belkar is the only one that shows a good STR, DEX, and CON. This makes sense since he dumped every mental stat. Raging Belkar's attubutes probably looks like 20,16,20,10,9,8. Thog's probably around 24,12,20,8,12,8 raged. Roy's simply 18,12,8,14,14,12.

Although Belkar will be slightly outdamaged by the two weapon users, his higher AC (armor, Dex, size, possible feats) would drop their chance of hitting. Even more if they Power Attack.

[Wyborn]

This entire battle can be decided very quickly by a single act:

All Belkar has to do is say something just nasty enough about Thog personally that Thog will cry and run off looking for solace in ice cream or something adorable. Belkar, being quite good at manipulating people emotionally, would never have to lift a finger.

....After that he could cut Thog's throat whenever he felt like doing it.

[Kreistor]

is V the paper then...

That would imply V could beat Thog, but Belkar would beat V. Prophetic visions aside, I don't think Belkar could seriously harm V, unless V failed to prepare combat spells and only had non-combat that day.

Roy might be a more appropriate Paper, if Belkar has Human as favoured enemy.

[Freelance Henchman]

FE orc (and human*)


I forgot about favored enemy. What do half-orcs count as, human or goblinoid?

[Rasumichin]

Neither, as far as i know, since orcs in D&D aren't goblinoids and are, for game purposes, not considered human due to this "orc blood" stuff.
So, i'd say they count as humanoid (orc).

Besides, i doubt that Belkar has chosen orcs as favored enemies.
Given his hatred of kobolds, reptilian humanoids are most likely to be his first choice, and windstriker might have made him choose magical beasts (augmented animals).
Humans or elves are also a good guess.

[MReav]

I would say his favoured enemies are Kobolds, Goblinoids, and Humans (though I'd want to fit Giant in there)

[Elliot Kane]

I think Thog would beat Belkar in a straight fight. He's probably stronger and deals a lot more damage on a hit. He's probably got more HP too.

If it's a fight that involves any kind of opportunities for being a sneaky little swine, however, Belkar will win. He's optimised for stealth over power, really, while Thog has no guile at all.

[Silverlocke980]

Belkar. Belkar doesn't fight "up-close and personal"; he'll run away, use tricks and traps, and basically outwit Thog to the point where the poor orc is just begging to die on the end of the halfling's knife.

Me and a friend talked once, and agreed: for purposes of harming another living being, Belkar's intelligence score spikes.

Look at his battle with Miko! She beat the entire OotS- and Belkar could have won while she was knocked out, if that was his ultimate goal. Imagine the power!

[rgoodfellow]

I wanna see Thog meet the thing in the darkness

[Spiky]

I was assuming equivalent equipment (with über-cheese-items all bets are off anyway) and a simple melee battle without much way to evade/hide/ambush etc. So Belkar gets 2 good daggers and Thog a good greataxe. I assume that Belkar has to wear light armor so he keeps his DEX bonus and special ranger TWF, while Thog can wear medium armor as a barbarian. No extra magic items allowed.
If you make them as identical as possible, what's the point? I think the only thing worth talking about is to take the characters as they are in the story and let them fight it out. That's why I made my original comment about a potion, which was really a comment on thog's intelligence more than anything.

[Demented]

In which case, Belkar, with his 3 hp left, loses.

[Freelance Henchman]

If you make them as identical as possible, what's the point? I think the only thing worth talking about is to take the characters as they are in the story and let them fight it out. That's why I made my original comment about a potion, which was really a comment on thog's intelligence more than anything.

I was wondering about how good their respective builds are in "normal" melee. I think Thog would win a straight-up battle if the battle is not skewed because Belkar carries super-items and a crate full of potions. Obviously he would lose if you assume he fights with that broken door as a weapon and wears no armor. Since we dont know exactly what they carry at this moment, lets assume standard equipment for both.

[Talya]

thog like puppies.

[Freelance Henchman]

thog like puppies.

So if Thog saw Belkar hurt a puppy, would he get an attack bonus?

[the_tick_rules]

i'd say belkar, cause he's just that cool.

[Spiky]

So if Thog saw Belkar hurt a puppy, would he get an attack bonus?

He would likely rage. Belkar wouldn't necessarily survive.

[JetTheOne]

That would imply V could beat Thog, but Belkar would beat V. Prophetic visions aside, I don't think Belkar could seriously harm V, unless V failed to prepare combat spells and only had non-combat that day.

Roy might be a more appropriate Paper, if Belkar has Human as favoured enemy.

:vaarsuvius: vs :thog:


Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, comic #20

Fight over

[Orzel]

If we go by who has better stuff

Belkar:
AC (light armor, high Dex, size bonus, maybe Dodge)
Skills
Number of attacks
Attack roll (since Thog will be power attacking)
Saves

Thog:
HP (+ DR 3/-)
Base damage
Bonus Damage
Speed


If Raging Belkar's attacking for (assuming base STR 16 since he never took WF) +19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9 for around 1d3+"7" to Thog's rage AC of around 12, he'll "never" miss.


If Raging Thog's power attacking (at 5) for (assuming base STR 20) +16/+11/+6 for around 1d12+"22" to Belkar's rage AC of around 14, he'll miss half the time.

With Thog knocking off 3-6 of Belkar's HD a round (~25-30 damage once or twice) and Belkar doing the same (~4-7 X6), who ever rolls better or starts the fight more favorable wins.

Now :belkar: vs :vaarsuvius: or :thog: vs :vaarsuvius:, Belkar has better saves. Best saves in the OoTS actually.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Stand up fight, Thunderdome or Colliseum? Thog.

Street/forest/cave/dungeon? Belkar.

Prison yard? Toss up.

Belkar uses his environment to his advantage. Hits and run, set traps, fades into the crowd, uses everything he can get ahold of. Thog is all about "Hit Hard, Hit Often." But Belkar isn't the type to stand around and let himself be pummeled for your entertainment.