Wild Shape...guh?

[JellyPooga]

O.k. setting aside Druidzilla cheese and focusing just on the Wild Shape class feature...

1)It's based on Polymorph.
2)Polymorph doesn't grant Special Qualities.
3)Enhanced sensory doo-da's (Low-Light vision, etc.) are Special Qualities.

So, is it me, or is the primary fluff reason for Wild Shaping (i.e. actually becoming the animal for all intents and purposes) completely negated by the rules?

Scenario 1) Mr Druid Wild Shapes into a Wolf so that he gains the superior hearing and smell that the form grants, so that he can track the goblin band that stole his wifes baby...but doesn't actually get the acute sense of smell that a Wolf possess.

Scenario 2) Mr Druid Wild Shapes into an Eagle so that he can fly high into the air and scout the surrounding area with the sharp eyes of that particular form...but has to stay fairly close to the ground to see anything in detail because he doesn't get the Eagles sharp eyes? (well, in this case he does get the racial bonus to Spot, I think, but not the Low-light vision).

What is going on here? Is there something I've missed?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

1)It's based on Polymorph.
Correction. Wild Shape (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/druid.html#druid-wild-shape) is now based upon the Alternate Form (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monsterTypes.html#alternate-form) special ability. See the errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) for the Player's Handbook and Monster Manual for more details. Polymorph is no longer officially supported be Wizards of the Coast. See also the article explaining the rationale behind this errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a).


2)Polymorph doesn't grant Special Qualities.
3)Enhanced sensory doo-da's (Low-Light vision, etc.) are Special Qualities.
Replace "polymorph" above with "alternate form," and it remains correct.


So, is it me, or is the primary fluff reason for Wild Shaping (i.e. actually becoming the animal for all intents and purposes) completely negated by the rules?

Scenario 1) Mr Druid Wild Shapes into a Wolf so that he gains the superior hearing and smell that the form grants, so that he can track the goblin band that stole his wifes baby...but doesn't actually get the acute sense of smell that a Wolf possess.

Scenario 2) Mr Druid Wild Shapes into an Eagle so that he can fly high into the air and scout the surrounding area with the sharp eyes of that particular form...but has to stay fairly close to the ground to see anything in detail because he doesn't get the Eagles sharp eyes? (well, in this case he does get the racial bonus to Spot, I think, but not the Low-light vision).

What is going on here? Is there something I've missed?
While those are interesting fluff ideas for Wild Shape, the truth is that wild shape is really designed assuming combat use rather than utility. Note they get extraordinary special attacks.

Though it's given a utility duration. Go figure.

[tarbrush]

O.k. setting aside Druidzilla cheese and focusing just on the Wild Shape class feature...

1)It's based on Polymorph.
2)Polymorph doesn't grant Special Qualities.
3)Enhanced sensory doo-da's (Low-Light vision, etc.) are Special Qualities.

What is going on here? Is there something I've missed?

Well, it's based on alternate form, not polymorph, but yes.

However, upon looking at animal stats, most people tend to think that, actually, scent is all well and good, but what's really fun is turning into a giant bear and beating people to death.

Basically, from an OOC perscpective, there are some SQs out there that are just far too good for a druid to get access to. So they don't get any.

It's prime territory for house ruling, but basically, the alternative means that druids would go from being powerful to being silly.

EDIT: And I've been totally ninja'd.

[Annarrkkii]

Buy the PHB II and use the Shapechange feature variant. Trust me. It solves all Druid cheesery and confusion. Well, most of it.

[JellyPooga]

Well, it's based on alternate form, not polymorph, but yes.

Correction. Wild Shape (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/druid.html#druid-wild-shape) is now based upon the Alternate Form (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monsterTypes.html#alternate-form) special ability

I now stand corrected.


However, upon looking at animal stats, most people tend to think that, actually, scent is all well and good, but what's really fun is turning into a giant bear and beating people to death.

Really? When I think of turning into an animal, the first thing I think of is all the possibilities of using that animals form, starting with senses and movement (notably Wolf and Eagle/Hawk) followed by combat (notably Bear and Big Cat).


Basically, from an OOC perscpective, there are some SQs out there that are just far too good for a druid to get access to. So they don't get any.

Whilst it is true that there are some SQ's that would be to good, what animals have them? About the best one I can think of is the Blindsense that Chordevoc (RotW) get, but that's negated by the forms' combat weakness (making it good for scouting, but littel else). I can't think of any animals with Regenerate or similar myself.


Buy the PHB II and use the Shapechange feature variant. Trust me. It solves all Druid cheesery and confusion. Well, most of it.

Unfortunately, I do not own the PHB II, otherwise I probably would.

[Lemur]

Whilst it is true that there are some SQ's that would be to good, what animals have them? About the best one I can think of is the Blindsense that Chordevoc (RotW) get, but that's negated by the forms' combat weakness (making it good for scouting, but littel else). I can't think of any animals with Regenerate or similar myself.


Druids can shapeshift into plants eventually. Plants have really good special qualities, which include an impressive set of immunities.

[JellyPooga]

Druids can shapeshift into plants eventually. Plants have really good special qualities, which include an impressive set of immunities.

Aren't those immunities just part and parcel of having the Plant type rather than independant SQ's? (like being immune to mind-affecting effects and having " - " Con [amongst other things] are part of having the Undead type)

[Lemur]

Aren't those immunities just part and parcel of having the Plant type rather than independant SQ's? (like being immune to mind-affecting effects and having " - " Con [amongst other things] are part of having the Undead type)

"Plant traits" are listed in the special qualities section. However, even if those traits are automatic, some plants do get things like blindsight and regeneration.

[Merlin the Tuna]

I second the "consider buying a PHB 2" suggestion. I certainly understand playing on a budget, but the PHB 2 is a pretty solid book all around. It's definitely worth a look-see.

[Tehnar]

And when you get lvl 15, plant and huge animal form, cast enhance wild shape (take extraordinary qualities) from Spell Compendium and turn into a Iron Maw (from Fiend Folio) and piss your DM off.

[Fax Celestis]

There's a 4th(?) level Druid spell in the Spell Compendium. Augment Wild Shape or something like that. Lets you gain the (Ex) abilities of something you Wild Shape into.

I'm slow. Ignore me, listen to Tehnar.

[TempusCCK]

And then you have the 12 rogue/6 assassin dropping the dice bomb sneak attack instant death all over your ass for being a douchebag in the middle of his campaign.

[JoeFredBob]

Really? When I think of turning into an animal, the first thing I think of is all the possibilities of using that animals form, starting with senses and movement (notably Wolf and Eagle/Hawk) followed by combat (notably Bear and Big Cat).



Ya, the rules set sucks for us people who really like the utility and creativeness that goes along with shapeshifting concepts, but don't want to end up with something stupidly broken.

[Annarrkkii]

The REAL nastiness starts to happen when you let your druid take Warshaper or Master of Many Forms. That's also where things start to get confusing, as your druid has to strip, put aside his weapon, and THEN shapechange into a near-identical humanoid, and then put everything back on.

[asqwasqw]

... that makes a lot of sense, annarrkkii.

Wild shaping, I think, was meant for combat, not utility. Which, yes, does suck.

[PinkysBrain]

They reintroduced wilding clasps in the Magic Item Compendium, so not necessarily.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Well, the fact that MoMF doesn't advance spellcasting makes it arguably less ridiculous than Druid 20, but it certainly is a different brand of nonsense at the very least.

[Grr]

Nothing is wrong with druids being powerful as long as there's a DM in the game to say what the druid can shift into or not.