Good Prestige Class For Fallen Paladin?

[Afgncaap5]

tl;dr - Any good multiclass or prestige class options for Lawful Neutral paladins who've lost their abilities? Oh, and Devotion feats still work even if you lose paladin abilities, right?

So, it turns out that an item that I filled with magical energy turned out to be an item that was aligned with "evil" for certain values of evil (my DM said his world follows Star Wars views on evil, and that introspection and seeking to understand one's place in history is a mark of darkness, something that puts a bit of a different spin on dwarfs that I wasn't expecting. I asked later, and the DM confirmed that dwarfs, even hill dwarfs, are typically Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good as I'd expected.) By investing this energy into this item, I was given two bonus levels, but had my dwarf paladin's alignment shift to Lawful Neutral, effectively removing my paladin abilities.

The DM says that the two levels can be in any class I want, even paladin, but there's no telling how long it'll be before I can find a fellow Moradin worshiper to cast Attonement on me (the party druid could theoretically do it, but due to the huge differences in our worldview it would only restore my alignment, not my class abilities.)

While my preference would be to remain a paladin (even without abilities, my feats and full BAB still make me a decent fighter), I'm looking over alternate class options. I thought for a second about Greyguard, but they still have to be LG. I also considered a level in Knight for thematic reasons, but that probably wouldn't be the best bet power-wise. Then again, this is my first paladin so I don't know all the tricks for it. Anyway, thoughts?

[BWR]

(my DM said his world follows Star Wars views on evil, and that introspection and seeking to understand one's place in history is a mark of darkness,


whuh?
That's pretty much the exact opposite of darkness in SW.

[Hiro Quester]

What about a Hospitalier (CD p. 48)? A bit more focus on healing. Many healing abilities stack with Paladin abilities (Lay on Hands).

Have to be non-chaotic, and have typical paladin abilities and feats (5 ranks in Ride and Handle animal, Mounted Combat , Ride-By Attack).

And you can keep advancing as a paladin without penalties once you have Atoned.

EDIT:
Or Kensai (CW 49) to improve your martial side. Use XP to use your own life force to enhance your "signature weapon", and the level two ability lets you make a DC 15 concentration check to increase your strength by +8 for half-your-class-level rounds. Paladins can take levels here and then go back to Paladining.

[nedz]

Devotion feats should still work, unless your DM says otherwise of course, though powering them with smite or TU could be tricky.

Can you tell us more about your character please ?
Like: what level are you ?
I'm guessing you are a Dwarf ?
What sort of PrC are you looking for ?

Hospitaler requires you to be able to case 1st level Divine Spells BTW

Maybe take a level of Cleric, they only have to be within 1 alignment of their deity ?
This should get you TU back and allow entry into several PrCs.
It's a very good dip in any event.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take Bone Knight from Five Nations.

[Hiro Quester]

Take Bone Knight from Five Nations.

It has some interesting undead flavor. But it means you can never go back to being a paladin.

[Seerow]

It has some interesting undead flavor. But it means you can never go back to being a paladin.

Worth it.


Bone Knight is my first pick for any GM who wants to start enforcing weird morality worldviews to force a paladin to fall.

[Douglas]

my DM said his world follows Star Wars views on evil, and that introspection and seeking to understand one's place in history is a mark of darkness
Huh?:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

Sith are evil because they seek to take a prominent place in history by force without regard for others, not because they seek to understand their place in history. Introspection and seeking understanding was a trademark of all force users, Jedi and Sith alike, not a mark of one side over the other.

[nedz]

Well if he's lost Spellcasting and TU then he's going to have to dip Cleric first, which is a good option anyway. Bone Knight would give him several Paladin abilities back his DM has just taken away though :smallbiggrin:

[endur]

I'd stick with Paladin. Any dwarven community should have followers of Moradin.

[Afgncaap5]

Thanks for the notes. I'll probably stick with Paladin for now. I'll basically be a mildly lackluster, fire-enthused Fighter. (I don't *quite* meet the requirements for the other prestige classes, and even if I did the DM's got a weird book limit rule where we're gradually allowed to pick one book at a time to use over the course of the adventure. So far I've got the Core books, Races of Stone, Complete Champion, The Forge of War, and one as-yet-undeclared book. So far the only book he's denied has been Tome of Battle (and a brief denial of Forge of War before I pointed out that I was only interested in the tiny amount of player options and none of the lore, since it isn't an Eberron campaign.))

Regarding the comments re: Star Wars and alignments, it's possible I didn't understand exactly what he was telling me about the item I was charging with energy, but I *think* that's how he described it. He also followed it up with saying "And if that doesn't seem right to you, consider that the item you've charged up is an evil item that" and then my memory gets fuzzy, but it was basically used for bad things. And, hey, I'm willing to accept that one. If weird things like that couldn't make a paladin lose abilities in spirit, then I'd start to wonder if the Phylactery of Faithfulness had any real application in the game at all.

(He also later said that he's not trying to punish the character or anything, and if I felt bad about it we could head for a speedier resolution. I'm okay with this particular story direction for now.)

[Th3N3xtGuy]

Crusader, Crusader, Crusader get Maneuvers + holy warrior theme and NO ALIGNMENT REQUIREMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Frees you up also so you can do the necessary evil for greater good later on ;) (Tome of Battle)

Also using corrupted(evil) items or artifacts will affect you alignment towards evil(Book of Vile Darkness)

[Afgncaap5]

Crusader, Crusader, Crusader get Maneuvers + holy warrior theme and NO ALIGNMENT REQUIREMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Frees you up also so you can do the necessary evil for greater good later on ;) (Tome of Battle)

Also using corrupted(evil) items or artifacts will affect you alignment towards evil(Book of Vile Darkness)

I... don't have Tome of Battle on the list of books that've been approved for my paladin. ...I also don't have the Book of Vile Darkness approved for my paladin. Though, to be fair, in the case of the second it's because I haven't asked yet. And another player *did* get approval for Book of Exalted Deeds for his barbarian, so... it might be doable.

Still, the goal's not really to turn evil here. But thanks!

[FocusWolf413]

Crusader, Crusader, Crusader get Maneuvers + holy warrior theme and NO ALIGNMENT REQUIREMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Frees you up also so you can do the necessary evil for greater good later on ;) (Tome of Battle)

Also using corrupted(evil) items or artifacts will affect you alignment towards evil(Book of Vile Darkness)

He just said no Tome of Battle. Read the responses before you answer.

[Andezzar]

Well if he's lost Spellcasting and TU then he's going to have to dip Cleric first, which is a good option anyway. Bone Knight would give him several Paladin abilities back his DM has just taken away though :smallbiggrin:Dip cleric and then rebuild the fallen paladin levels as you go on. Straight cleric/bone knight is much more powerful than paladin/bone knight.

[nedz]

If your character is going through a phase of re-examining his actions in the light of his faith then a level of Cleric would fit that quite well.

Also, mechanically it's very strong and it's Core.

There's even a whole Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773) on the subject.

[Metahuman1]

I... don't have Tome of Battle on the list of books that've been approved for my paladin.

Go straight cleric, pick up DMM: Persist spell, and stack the crap out of Nightsticks and/or Reliquary Holy Symbols, retraining all your old Paladin levels except maybe 1, and convert THAT to prestige paladin then.

Cause otherwise, your DM is just gonna keep Hosing you if he's unwilling to approve Tome of Battle. That is by and large a BAD sigh, more so in light of his little morality and makes you fall play.

[WeaselGuy]

Is Grey Guard not an option? I seem to recall it being designed to give a paladin back his abilities, and work around that pesky code of conduct thing (to a degree). I'm afb right now, so I'm going off of memory, and I could be wrong.

[Afgncaap5]

Go straight cleric, pick up DMM: Persist spell, and stack the crap out of Nightsticks and/or Reliquary Holy Symbols, retraining all your old Paladin levels except maybe 1, and convert THAT to prestige paladin then.

Cause otherwise, your DM is just gonna keep Hosing you if he's unwilling to approve Tome of Battle. That is by and large a BAD sigh, more so in light of his little morality and makes you fall play.

The DM said that to me because he doesn't quite get that I appreciate character optimization without actually... doing it. Effectively, he knows what *he* can do with Tome of Battle (1d2 Crusader, etc.) and doesn't want to give the RAW ammo out to do that. The fact that I'm not the sort of person who uses tricks like that is going to have to be a trust issue with him, I'm afraid.

As for your concerns about him not playing nice in the future, he came to me and said that if I didn't find the "Paladin without abilities needing to seek redemption" or "Paladin choosing another path after falling from grace" stories to be fun, he'd find a faster in-game solution to them. I'm not worried on this front, really. (This is the only oddity of this degree that we've had over the last nine levels. Err... 11 levels for me, I guess.)



Is Grey Guard not an option? I seem to recall it being designed to give a paladin back his abilities, and work around that pesky code of conduct thing (to a degree). I'm afb right now, so I'm going off of memory, and I could be wrong.

Actually, to be a Grey Guard you must be Lawful Good. Grey Guards basically don't follow the letter of the law of their faith so much as the intent of the law, and they can use that to get their gauntlets dirty. But you've still gotta be Good.

[Petrocorus]

I would have suggested Vigilante or Suel Arcanamach, but you're already lvl 11 and there is this book limit.
In CChamp, you have the Mythic Examplar, Squire of Legend and Shadowstriker that may help you.
But I think the best thing you have to do is to find this Atonement spell ASAP.

[WeaselGuy]

Or, alternatively, you can embrace the evil and become a Blackguard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm). If you're level 11, you can actually trade 10 of your paladin levels in for 10 blackguard levels, and basically be Pal 1/BGd 10. From there, uh... Start taking levels of Paladin of Tyranny (Unearthed Arcana) or, as was mentioned earlier, Kensai can be pretty cool.

[Afgncaap5]

Or, alternatively, you can embrace the evil and become a Blackguard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm). If you're level 11, you can actually trade 10 of your paladin levels in for 10 blackguard levels, and basically be Pal 1/BGd 10. From there, uh... Start taking levels of Paladin of Tyranny (Unearthed Arcana) or, as was mentioned earlier, Kensai can be pretty cool.

I can't think of a single valid in-character reason to go that route. :smallwink: Thanks, though.

[Andezzar]

Or, alternatively, you can embrace the evil and become a Blackguard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm). If you're level 11, you can actually trade 10 of your paladin levels in for 10 blackguard levels, and basically be Pal 1/BGd 10. From there, uh... Start taking levels of Paladin of Tyranny (Unearthed Arcana) or, as was mentioned earlier, Kensai can be pretty cool.I'm really not sure if making your character Pal1/BG10 is better than Pal9/BG2. Sure you get the BG stuff early but you lose all the stuff you get for having fallen Paladin levels.

[WeaselGuy]

I'm really not sure if making your character Pal1/BG10 is better than Pal9/BG2. Sure you get the BG stuff early but you lose all the stuff you get for having fallen Paladin levels.
Uh... What stuff do you get to keep from fallen Paladin, other than your BAB, Weapon, Armor and Shield proficiencies? A fallen Paladin is basically a Fighter without bonus feats.


Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.

[Andezzar]

Look at the Blackguard, not the Paladin:
Fallen Paladins

Blackguards who have levels in the paladin class (that is to say, are now ex-paladins) gain extra abilities the more levels of paladin they have.

A fallen paladin who becomes a blackguard gains all of the following abilities that apply, according to the number of paladin levels the character has.
1-2

Smite good 1/day. (This is in addition to the ability granted to all blackguards at 2nd level.
3-4

Lay on hands. Once per day, the blackguard can use this supernatural ability to cure himself or his fiendish servant of damage equal to his Charisma bonus × his level.
5-6

Sneak attack damage increased by +1d6. Smite good 2/day.
7-8

Fiendish summoning. Once per day, the blackguard can use a summon monster I spell to call forth an evil creature. For this spell, the caster level is double the blackguard’s class level.
9-10

Undead companion. In addition to the fiendish servant, the blackguard gains (at 5th level) a Medium-size skeleton or zombie as a companion. This companion cannot be turned or rebuked and gains all special bonuses as a fiendish servant when the blackguard gains levels. Smite good 3/day.
11 or more

A fallen paladin of this stature immediately gains a blackguard level for each level of paladin he trades in.

The character level of the character does not change. With the loss of paladin levels, the character no longer gains as many extra abilities for being a fallen paladin.

[Jay R]

Look at the Blackguard, not the Paladin:

He already said that this doesn't fit the character conception. We need to drop it and suggest something else.

[Sith_Happens]

The DM said that to me because he doesn't quite get that I appreciate character optimization without actually... doing it. Effectively, he knows what *he* can do with Tome of Battle (1d2 Crusader, etc.) and doesn't want to give the RAW ammo out to do that. The fact that I'm not the sort of person who uses tricks like that is going to have to be a trust issue with him, I'm afraid.

Um... does he know what one can do with Core?:smallconfused:

Oh, and I second Kensai.

[Afgncaap5]

Um... does he know what one can do with Core?:smallconfused:

Oh, and I second Kensai.

Actually, I don't think he does.

I mentioned a few things to him last night, and he hadn't been aware of the Paladin restriction on multiclassing (after an offhand comment from me on how it'd be easier if I'd picked the ECS book.) He then learned of the Knight Training feat, and decided that the item's focus on personal knowledge and experience would effectively grant that feat without needing the whole book, so... I may take a level of cleric now.