What to do after Ranger 5?

[ravenlikestea]

I'm getting ready to join a group that will be starting at level 5. I really like the look of the Hunter Ranger, great at shooting arrows, but also not completely useless in melee. Unfortunately it seems to stagnate (at least from interesting abilities) after about level 5,so I've been considering multiclassing. Since we haven't started yet, I can still move stats around to fit pretty much anything but Paladin. Also, I don't know the party composition, so until we play a session I won't be able to take that into consideration.

I've been back and forth on fighter and rouge, but I think I'd really like some sort of spellcasting to continue to augment the character. The main classes I've been considering are:

The Lore Bard as I can still grab the one or two spells from Ranger that I like (and sooner than if I was a Ranger) as well as a lot of other support abilities.

The Death Domain Cleric seems really fun flavor wise, and could make for an interesting blend with a Ranger who's maybe done some adventuring but got in over his head and had to watch the rest of his party die. However, I don't know if mechanically it would be of any real use.

Maybe Wizard, although not sure which archetype there - I then slightly worry about MAD.

Do you all have any suggestions or advice on choices here?

[aceynn88]

I'm a big fan of picking a story related cleric domain, going rogue for expertise and sneak attack, or going straight fighter.

You should have the dex and wis to go into any one of those.

[MrStabby]

Rogue is good for sneaky stealthy hunter. Fighter also works and you can get some very nice abilities there like the battlemaster manoeuvres (they also come early which is nice).

If you want some very specific things from your build monk can work (you should have the dex and wis anyway). You will just use this to be able to get lots of attacks (good with hunters mark), to boost your AC (as you dont want heavy armour) and to let you use dex on a two handed weapon. You can then follow this one level with something like champion to get another fighting style and improved criticals.

If you want to boost your casting ability sorcerer is fun. Maybe not the most powerful but it ensures that you keep a good number of ranger spells accessible and an occasional metamagiked spell. If you don't have the CHA then you can use cleric instead.

[Shining Wrath]

I can see something that gives you different ranged attacks, then. Hang back and blast as a Light Cleric.

[Easy_Lee]

I do not think rogue is a good mix, because Rangers have plenty of uses for their bonus action already.

I suggest against cleric or another caster, because that leads one down a road of never having the highest level spells. The higher level ranger spells, such as grasping vine, lightning arrow, and tree stride are honestly quite useful. Swift quiver can lead to an archer ranger getting 5 attacks per round assuming horde breaker. I wouldn't trade these for lower level cleric spells and features.

Hunter abilities at 7, 11, and 15 are actually pretty useful as well. The class abilities leave a bit to be desired, particularly since they often only work in your favored terrain, but the archetype is solid.

Monk could be an interesting mix, but there would be some overlap. Again, bonus actions are one of the monk's fortes, and Rangers have plenty of uses for those.

A fighter multiclass would be redundant. You probably don't need the extra fighting style, and wouldn't benefit from extra attack a second time.

Multiclassing out of level 5 also removes one ASI from your eventual total. Your character will have lower stats or fewer feats as a result.

In short, the ranger looks worse than it actually is. Its features can be convoluted and difficult to use, but there are ways to do it. The spells are overall solid, as is the hunter archetype. And since you really need Sharpshooter and want max dexterity and wisdom on a ranger, it's difficult to support a multiclass that ends with fewer ASIs.

I'd just stay pure ranger.

[Eragon123]

I do not think rogue is a good mix, because Rangers have plenty of uses for their bonus action already.

I suggest against cleric or another caster, because that leads one down a road of never having the highest level spells. The higher level ranger spells, such as grasping vine, lightning arrow, and tree stride are honestly quite useful. Swift quiver can lead to an archer ranger getting 5 attacks per round assuming horde breaker. I wouldn't trade these for lower level cleric spells and features.

Hunter abilities at 7, 11, and 15 are actually pretty useful as well. The class abilities leave a bit to be desired, particularly since they often only work in your favored terrain, but the archetype is solid.

Monk could be an interesting mix, but there would be some overlap. Again, bonus actions are one of the monk's fortes, and Rangers have plenty of uses for those.

A fighter multiclass would be redundant. You probably don't need the extra fighting style, and wouldn't benefit from extra attack a second time.

Multiclassing out of level 5 also removes one ASI from your eventual total. Your character will have lower stats or fewer feats as a result.

In short, the ranger looks worse than it actually is. Its features can be convoluted and difficult to use, but there are ways to do it. The spells are overall solid, as is the hunter archetype. And since you really need Sharpshooter and want max dexterity and wisdom on a ranger, it's difficult to support a multiclass that ends with fewer ASIs.

I'd just stay pure ranger.

Plus the worst levels of ranger are the first 5. (WHY NO FIGHTING STYLE AT LEVEL 1!?!? THE FIGHTERS GET IT!!!) You've made it through the hard part. Start reaping the rewards, and enemy lives. Happy hunting.

[Dontdestroyme]

What to do after Ranger 5?

I would go ranger 6

[Mandragola]

Sticking with ranger is indeed fine.

Rogue is also good though. Contrary to some of the above points it:

- helps to have more options for bonus actions. Ranger bonus actions do damage (hunter's mark, off-hand attacks and swift quiver eventually) but rogue ones give you mobility and escapes from cunning action. You use them in different situations, so you're not actually doubling up.

- increases your damage with sneak attack - pretty substantially.

- Gives other cool things. Assassin/ranger is harsh and extremely good at getting surprise rounds with great perception and unparalleled sneakiness (expertise in stealth, pass without trace, profit). Uncanny dodge is great for that one annoying bad guy who does manage to get past your meat shields and hit you.

- is also a pretty front-loaded class that "runs out" later on. You get a lot of goodies quickly.

- Seriously helps to have expertise.

- Gives you a bonus ASI at level 6, so may not in fact penalise you for ASIs at all.

Honestly though I'm not saying it's better than pure ranger. I don't think it's worse either. It's different.

[MrStabby]

I know rangers can get a lot of things to do with their bonus action, but not all of it happens at level 5.

If you take archery style not two weapon fighting and if you are using the second attack mainly to ensure a hit for sneak attack damage then your ranger based bonus action is basically a once per fight hunters mark.

I think either arcane trickster or assassin ranger is a good way. 5th level gives you 2nd level ranger spells. Arcane trickster would add a handful of other spell slots to you, and a couple of useful spells. Assassin... well everyone knows about assassins.

[Gwendol]

Ranger 6. Seriously.

If anything you can diverge later and I second rogue (any kind) for more utility, and SA.

[Mandragola]

What's actually so great about ranger 6? You get another favoured terrain and enemy... so what? You don't get any more spells at all, so for me it's an idea level not to take. Obviously you have to take it if you're carrying on as a ranger but if you're thinking of multiclassing then that seems like a good time to me.

[Easy_Lee]

What's actually so great about ranger 6? You get another favoured terrain and enemy... so what? You don't get any more spells at all, so for me it's an idea level not to take. Obviously you have to take it if you're carrying on as a ranger but if you're thinking of multiclassing then that seems like a good time to me.

Favored terrain and enemy are supposed to be the defining ranger features. They help you track favored enemies, Grant expertise on wisdom skills in your favored terrain, and with land's stride let you ignore difficult terrain in your favored terrain (raw says nonmagical difficult terrain, but I doubt many DMs would care about that distinction, all things considered). These are not really useless features, they're just situational.

And if he wants to be an archer, the hunter ranger is the most versatile, comprehensive archer in spite of its complication and BS capstone.

[Xetheral]

The Lore Bard as I can still grab the one or two spells from Ranger that I like (and sooner than if I was a Ranger) as well as a lot of other support abilities.

Your Lore Bard idea is an excellent one. It will also give you an excellent ranged use for your reaction.

[ravenlikestea]

First, thanks for all the suggestions. Second, I've made some progress.

I almost went with fighter (or rouge for that burst damage) initially, but I really enjoy spellcasting. Esp for the flavor of this character. Both of the gish options in Rouge and Fighter seemed better if I just did them with no Ranger (which is something I keep running into). For this reason, I'll be leaning more towards a caster based class.

To those suggesting staying in Ranger, I've basically gone the other way. It's most likely that I'm just not a big fan of the flavor of the class. I really like the idea of an archer who supplements his abilities with spells (basically something like swift quiver is awesome). And I really like some of the Hunter archetypes abilities like horde breaker, volley, and stand against the tide. But not enough to put up with the really disappointing class abilities like Land's Stride or Hide in Plain Sight. So instead of taking 5 levels in Ranger, I'll only take 2 - my first 2 levels. Then it's straight to Bard (which means I probably need to either rename the thread or start a new one).

Bard is a really good choice because I only really want a few spells from Ranger: conjure woodland beings, Wind wall (flavor purposes, I'm going with air genasi as race), and swift quiver. Which I can pick up with Magical Secrets. I'll pick up one level of spell casting from Ranger (which means I can still pick up hunter's mark and hail of thorns) and then 18 more as Bard, which works out pretty okay with spell slots. I do lose one ASI; however, I don't really need wisdom with this build - so I really only care about Dex, Con, and Cha. I can use expertise to build up perception. And the spells I can pick can pretty well emulate a ranger's abilities (like See Invisibility, Clarvioyance, Locate <Insert Thing>, etc.) though, possibly not as frequently. Honestly, flavor wise this seems to be the most easy fit (though I did like the look of Wizard school of Div.). The next question is do I do Lore or Valor?

Lore will give two extra spells and 3 skills, but valor gives a bunch of redundant (with ranger) weapon proficiencies. That being said, the extra attack and battle magic are both pretty good. Good enough for me to be leaning towards Valor, but again, I would be very appreciative of any input.

[Easy_Lee]

Sounds like what you want is an arcane archer. Hmm...I've got an idea for a custom sorcerer archetype that adds some spells from the ranger spell list, extra attack, bow proficiencies, can disengage as a bonus action after a certain level, and has access to a new metamagic to combine a single target or point AoE spell with a single ranged weapon attack. That sound about right?

Beyond that, a ranged Eldritch Knight is the closest we have to an arcane archer.

[coredump]

To those suggesting staying in Ranger, I've basically gone the other way. It's most likely that I'm just not a big fan of the flavor of the class. I really like the idea of an archer who supplements his abilities with spells (basically something like swift quiver is awesome). And I really like some of the Hunter archetypes abilities like horde breaker, volley, and stand against the tide. But not enough to put up with the really disappointing class abilities like Land's Stride or Hide in Plain Sight. So instead of taking 5 levels in Ranger, I'll only take 2 - my first 2 levels. Then it's straight to Bard (which means I probably need to either rename the thread or start a new one).
Well, if archer is what you are after.... bow or Xbow?

For a longbow archer, I like ranger5/rogue5 as a start. There are multiple paths after that (currently leaning Battlemaster3, but who knows)

[Gwendol]

I prefer Lore to Valor, because spells. But sure, since you really just dip Ranger, Valor might come slightly ahead thanks to extra attack (you won't be picking up ranger archetype features). Funnily enough I have a Ranger 2/Bard X character in a 3.5 game. I think the concept is solid: a bit of an Alan-a-Dale character (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan-a-Dale, for those of you who need to refresh your Robin Hood trivia).

[Xetheral]

You might want to consider Ranger 3 instead of Ranger 2. Horde Breaker is one of the only sources of additional attacks that doesn't take up a bonus action. Sure, you won't get it every round, but the opportunity cost of using the feature is zero, and if you're already going Ranger 2, the opportunity cost of getting the feature is low.

[ravenlikestea]

I prefer Lore to Valor, because spells. But sure, since you really just dip Ranger, Valor might come slightly ahead thanks to extra attack (you won't be picking up ranger archetype features). Funnily enough I have a Ranger 2/Bard X character in a 3.5 game. I think the concept is solid: a bit of an Alan-a-Dale character (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan-a-Dale, for those of you who need to refresh your Robin Hood trivia).

I've always liked Alan-a-Dale, but I hadn't thought it about it in this context. I may be borrowing some character traits... But yeah, it's a hard choice between extra spells and an extra attack. I think the spells are situationally better, but I'm almost always going to be using the extra attack if I take it.
So I think I'll do Valor, I'll still have at least 2 spells (which is enough for Swift Quiver and at least one other) from magical secrets (see below) at the end of the day.


You might want to consider Ranger 3 instead of Ranger 2. Horde Breaker is one of the only sources of additional attacks that doesn't take up a bonus action. Sure, you won't get it every round, but the opportunity cost of using the feature is zero, and if you're already going Ranger 2, the opportunity cost of getting the feature is low.

I initially wanted to do that too, but I realized (if we get to level 20) then I'd lose the high level magical secrets. Sure, I'll probably use my level 9 slot for foresight 90% of the time, but I feel like I really ought to grab wish just in case. Plus that's one more ranger spell I could grab. I like Horde Breaker a lot though, and it will be incredibly useful in most scenarios. And while taking it will help my character for most of their journey it will leave them without access to the best spells in the game from high levels. But... I think that might be an okay cost. I know it will be a long term game, but I've never played a game where we've gotten to max level.

[Psionic]

I initially wanted to do that too, but I realized (if we get to level 20) then I'd lose the high level magical secrets. Sure, I'll probably use my level 9 slot for foresight 90% of the time, but I feel like I really ought to grab wish just in case. Plus that's one more ranger spell I could grab. I like Horde Breaker a lot though, and it will be incredibly useful in most scenarios. And while taking it will help my character for most of their journey it will leave them without access to the best spells in the game from high levels. But... I think that might be an okay cost. I know it will be a long term game, but I've never played a game where we've gotten to max level.

I've going to save you a lot of my own personal time deliberating this issue, because you will go through all this and either end very disappointed, or finally reach the same conclusion.

Do not do Bard XX / Ranger X. The Swift quiver, and either cutting words / Valor tree attack and valor inspiration is absolutely not worth it.

For starters, Cutting words is great, and it is the #1 thing you are trading off for not doing this, it's a great ranged reaction option that saves heads (my first character was a bard, and easily half of his impact was cutting enemy attack rolls and damage rolls just because it is THAT good) but everything else you are getting is pure deception. Valor's extra benefits on inspiration is completely useless to you, and it requires you dealing out your inspiration ahead of time, instead of allowing you to portion it wisely or otherwise save it. Not to mention, cutting words use reactions, which are the most underused action type in the game. In the end, you'd do Valor for the overlapping proficiencies, slight modifications to your inspirations (most of which will go unused or underutilized) and the extra attack that Ranger 5 would grant you, along with some of the best second-level casting options, period. Silence and Spike growth are two absolutely incredible skills, good casting stat or not, and going level 5 in ranger is worth it just for the spells, as if you need the extra attack stapled onto it.

You were right to start. "What to do AFTER level 5 ranger" is both the right question and the right path. The answer is not Bard. It's not Swift quiver. I'll give you the easy math

Let's say you're using a longbow, you're a 15/5 bard ranger, that's 4.5 attacks a round with HB, or additional d8 on CS. Each attack would do d8+5 damage, because Swift Quiver burns out hunter's mark. That's 9.5 damage an attack for 4.5 attacks or 42.75 average DPR (assuming all hit), not counting Sharpshooter options, or crossbow mastery for heavy crossbow (d10, average DPR ~47). Not bad. But there are a couple of reasons why this is deceptive. Firstly, one clear condition of Swift Quiver is that the ammo it produces for shots is non-magical. If your DM rules (as the two I know personally do) that bows provide attack whilst arrows provide damage when enchanted, that would mean your then non-magical ammunition would lose any form of additional enhanced damage. Additionally, non-magical damage is shunted by physical resistance carried by literally any enemy worth fighting at that tier. You can very quickly, very easily find that halved, and it isn't all that spectacular to begin with. I recommend something entirely different:

15/5 (martial) Fighter Ranger is the build I eventually sat on (after investigating several other dual and tri-classing options) because of the importance and strength of the level 5 ranger in the early goings. With this path, you scoop up Action Surge, Second Wind, Defensive Fighting style (+1 AC), Two Extra attacks (first one not overlapping, somewhat sad to waste it but Silence is WORTH IT. IT REALLY IS. TRUST ME), Five stat improvements / feats (as they get more of them than any other class) along with six D10 superiority dice and the die recovery on initiative. Now, for the sake of argument, I didn't include any feats / item properties in the first damage calculations, so recall that whatever could go into the above could also go into the below

Since you don't have the swift quiver feat, Hunter's mark will apply on every attack. And since you don't need to use your bonus action for any attacks at all, you can reset and keep firing if you happen to finish off an enemy in the middle of the string. The damage per attack is d8+d6+5, over 3.5 attacks with HB or 3 + a d8 from CS. Damage per hit is now 13 over 3.5 attacks or 45.5 DPR, higher than the bard who has a full additional attack and there's no ambiguity about the damage type being nonmagical in this aspect.

Now, you also get 6d10's saved up in case you want to have fun tossing around some extra dice. But which maneuvers? Well, it just so happens that a lot of the maneuvers are fantastic for a ranged character. All of the saves can be against your DEX, meaning you'll have a better chance with these saves than most SPELLS you'd cast in your tenure. Menacing Attack is pure dumb, obviously, as what better way to keep an enemy at a good firing distance than to make them afraid of getting close with the Frightened effect? Trip attack is a great way to play supportive while dishing out tons of damage, by setting up your melee allies to have advantage and also manage multiple enemies at the same time. While you're at it, you can shoot the bows out of enemy bowman's hands with your Disarming Strike, or better yet, reposition your barbarian friend in front of his face with your Maneuvering Strike. What you do with your Maneuver choices are completely up to you, but whatever you choose will be ridiculous in the long run, and in the short run it's a flat D10 your can throw on any (hell, every) attack to make yourself a ridiculous ranged threat. And remember Cutting words? There's a maneuver called "Parry" that does exactly what cutting words does (for damage reduction) with a better result (dex added) on reaction. Sadly only usable on yourself, but decent still.

I spent a lot of time deliberating between fighter 15 / rogue 2 / ranger 3, Fighter 11 / Rogue 4 / Ranger 5 but I cannot logistically refute the d10 die, the extra command option, or second tier ranger spells. Ranger spells, especially, I can't give up. But it took me a lot of deep thinking and brain-scrubbing to get Swift quiver out of my head. It is such a trap, I love the spell but it's so not good. >:


I almost went with fighter (or rouge for that burst damage) initially, but I really enjoy spellcasting. Esp for the flavor of this character. Both of the gish options in Rouge and Fighter seemed better if I just did them with no Ranger (which is something I keep running into). For this reason, I'll be leaning more towards a caster based class.

If this is the case, you should almost certainly go for Cleric or Druid. Druids tend to be very casting-heavy and don't really have much synergy with Rangers, but at least in this case it doesn't force you to put points into Charisma, and it allows you to double up under your wisdom / dexterity stats. Clerics are a completely different story. If you are looking for an effective multiclass for casting as a Ranger, Tempest/War Cleric is absolutely the option. War clerics start out immediately granting you bonus action attacks, meaning that if you didn't take Crossbow mastery at your level 4 (or level 0 variant human) feat it'll give you the chance to attack with your longbow three times as opposed to twice, immediately after ranger 5 / cleric 1. If you got crossbow mastery, and are wielding hand-crossbows, that war domain feature would then become unusable in most cases. This is where Tempest domain is a great alternative. War domain contains all the buffing spells, but Tempest domain is made for putting out hurt in a wide area, and lots of it. Their Channel divinity allows you to max out the damage on any lighting/thunder damage rolled (essentially overchannel) and that's at 2nd level. Additionally, they have methods of keeping enemies off with Wrath of the storm + Thunderbolt strike. Not to mention, clerics simply have a better spell list than Bards, forgoing magical secrets. Bards get magical secrets specifically to deal with the fact that they have very close to zero relevant damage spells at 3rd + levels. Essentially you will do nothing but utility casting until you receive swift quiver at 12th~15th level. Seriously. Look over the spell list. It's so limited it's painful, especially in the early goings. Clerics have no such issues.

Good luck with your therapy, I hope I helped.