Immortal's Handbook in E6?

[ShurikVch]

I noticed - lowest of Divinity Templates in Immortals Handbook: Ascension, Disciple (Chosen of...) required only 5 HD or levels, and (without extra equipment) is "only" LA +3, thus fit, if barely, into E6 regulations.

So, DMs and Players of GitP:
1) Would you, as a DM, allow your player(s) to use that template in E6 game?
2) Would you, as a player, use that template (if allowed)?
3) How strong/weak may it be?

[Bronk]

Well... a +3 LA has it's first buyoff option at level 9, so at ECL8 I don't think this actually fits into E6.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well... a +3 LA has it's first buyoff option at level 9, so at ECL8 I don't think this actually fits into E6.

In E6, LA doesn't count toward your ECL, it just reduces your pointbuy for ability scores. Even if it did, E6 only limits your character level to 6th, meaning only class levels and racial HD, not LA or bloodline levels.

However, in this case, it's an acquired template, so it cannot be negated by reducing your starting ability scores, unless you're starting at 5th+ level or want to spend five levels with low ability scores before seeing any benefits from it.

[rweird]

DISCLAIMER: I have never played E6. I have however done some amount of research on the Immortal's Handbook, and how easily abused it is. The TL;DR of this post is "Immortal's Handbook can be crap, or really powerful, is poorly balanced, and shouldn't be used unless it is made clear that the game will be based around Immortal's Handbook (However I do not advise doing such a thing, though if you do, an E6 game probably would be more balanced than the epic levels it was designed for).

I would say the +3 LA would be too low by a fair amount. It gives 1 divine ability, and some other decent stuff, in IHB, this is not a balanced thing, but I'll list some things a divine ability can do:

Make you half-celestial, half-fiend, or half-dragon
Become incorporeal
1 feat you can change 1/round to any feat you qualify for
6 bonus feats
1 extra level
extra "health" pool (Force field) of 50 points that regenerates 1/round
Ooze, undead, elemental, or construct traits
If a construct: +26 strength, +10 DR/-, sizing up weapon damage by at least 1 step, +10 NA, -5 dex (not below 10),
If undead: Lich, Ghost or Vampire template
At-will polymorph
Thieving (1d1000 GP) [Effect], essentially, you have an attack that removes takes wealth from other creatures, including an aura that could slowly suck all items of value from anyone within 100+ ft of you.

Note: For a -12 penalty to an ability score (which could be divided up), such a creature could get a second divine ability (if you take the polymorph one, you could get Shapechange constantly active, for creatures of up to twice your HD).

There also are some less-than-impressive abilities such as +1 on saves, or AC, or never being disarmed, and frankly underwhelming at-will damaging attacks, along with a bunch of abilities that require 20+ ranks in a skill which you couldn't get.

Additionally, the template would grant domain SLAs of 2 domains up to 3rd level (eventually) at-will. As a DM, I'd only allow it if it is the premise of some game (as is a necessity when dealing with IHB), and as it is the Immortal's Handbook, probably not base a game off it.

So,
1) Not unless I for some reason decide to run a game based on this very premise
2) I wouldn't request such a thing, if the premise of the game involves it, I might, if not, I'd see that IHB is introduced, and likely excuse myself from playing unless it seems to be not at all optimized, in which case I may make my own character as I planned.
3) As Immortal's Handbook is poorly written and balanced, making a bunch of assumptions, it could be a decent, but not great thing, however, it could be wildly powerful. If a person is game-y and gimmicky enough, they probably could get some rather absurd things, in the true IHB tradition.

[ShurikVch]

DISCLAIMER: I have never played E6. I have however done some amount of research on the Immortal's Handbook, and how easily abused it is. Thanks for your answer.


Make you half-celestial, half-fiend, or half-dragon Which are all within E6 regulations, especially the latter

Become incorporeal Big deal! Ritual of Transfiguration give it for LA +2; Ghost from Ghostwalk - LA +0 (!)

Ooze ... traits Ooze Type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#oozeType)
Traits

An ooze possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Blind Oops! :smallamused:

If a construct: +26 strength, +10 DR/-, sizing up weapon damage by at least 1 step, +10 NA, -5 dex (not below 10) No construct in the game have LA below +2, so it will be outside E6 regulations

If undead: Lich, Ghost or Vampire template Lich is withing E6 regulations "as is", and Vampires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)
cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.

Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship.

They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. You still want to play one?

Thieving (1d1000 GP) [Effect], essentially, you have an attack that removes takes wealth from other creatures, including an aura that could slowly suck all items of value from anyone within 100+ ft of you.
Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 40 Ranks. In E6. Go ahead, good luck :smallamused: (Note: Asport actually can steal things withing your Divine Aura, but it's only 40', and creatures got Reflex save against it)


Note: For a -12 penalty to an ability score (which could be divided up), such a creature could get a second divine ability (if you take the polymorph one, you could get Shapechange constantly active, for creatures of up to twice your HD). HOW? :smallconfused:


There also are some less-than-impressive abilities such as +1 on saves, or AC, or never being disarmed, and frankly underwhelming at-will damaging attacks, along with a bunch of abilities that require 20+ ranks in a skill which you couldn't get. I surprised you don't mentioned maximized unarmed damage, or summoning of 12 HD of creatures per day with CR as only restriction

[rweird]

Maximized unarmed damage required some high level monk ability.

Half-dragon: +3 LA. Half-celestial/fiend: +4 LA. Disciple can give these things for lower LA, and more benefits besides.

Construct below +2 LA: Warforged from Eberron is +0. If I take a handicap (-12 strength for example), I could take Iron and Adamantine Body, +40 (28) strength, +2 size categories for weapon damage, DR 20/-, +20 NA, treat enemy DR as 20 points lower. I make my starting Dex 10 so I don't take the dex penalty. I am the super-tank.

Vampires are +8 LA. If a +3 LA template can give you a +8 LA template and more it is not balanced compared to other things. I understand vampires have too high an LA. However, considering I have a Dominate gaze, invitations should be easy enough to get. It'd change playstyle, but it still is a good template (especially considering that 1 more feat, and the 5 crappy vampire bonus feats could be traded in for another divine ability). In E6, you can acquire a ton of feats, and trade in 6 feats for another divine ability. One could try to become a Vampire Lord to overcome some of the weaknesses, and still would be neigh-impossible to kill.

I understand these things can be done in E6 normally, however, your examples seem to typically be harder to get. Ghost requires half your levels to be in one of two astoundingly mediocre classes, so I'd remove your choice for 3 levels unless you are a spellcaster. Dealing with incorporeality in E6 however, would be rather difficult, and I've seen plenty of tables that don't allow 3.0 (Ghostwalk, Savage Species) despite what WotC says. You are mentioning a bunch of comparable LA templates that grant sone of the divine bonuses. The template grants +2 to all ability scores, Charisma as a deflection bonus to AC, +1 divine bonus to checks, attacks, saves, AC, CL, SR, save DCs, and initiative, Command at-will, 1/day Dispel Magic, Sending, and Tongues, maximizing HP/HD, at-will SLAs from two domains, and 1 or more of the abilities described above (an arbitrary number given enough feats in E6).

Ooze traits: Oozes apparently get blindsight. Being mindless is an oversight IHB made, however, it also grants Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, flanking, critical hits and stunning. Also, no need to eat, sleep or breathe. A reasonable DM I think would rule out the mindless part (but also not us IHB).

You can take a divine handicap to get an additional divine ability (along with trading feats for divine abilities).

IHB isn't really even balanced against itself, it makes a bunch of erroneous assumptions about what is equal, however, unless the premise is "We are disciples of the Gods, and blessed with extraordinary power", I wouldn't recommend introducing it.

[ShurikVch]

Maximized unarmed damage required some high level monk ability. Only IUS and Lawful alignment.

Half-dragon: +3 LA. Half-celestial/fiend: +4 LA. Disciple can give these things for lower LA, and more benefits besides. I think everybody agreed +4 is too high for half-outsiders, and +3 is too high for Half-Dragon (especially considering couple of potentially most interesting variant are nerfed, and at least one banned outright). Disciple, at least, allow to get more goodies for the same price (or a bit discount - for half-outsiders)

Construct below +2 LA: Warforged from Eberron is +0. If I take a handicap (-12 strength for example), I could take Iron and Adamantine Body, +40 (28) strength, +2 size categories for weapon damage, DR 20/-, +20 NA, treat enemy DR as 20 points lower. I make my starting Dex 10 so I don't take the dex penalty. I am the super-tank. Doesn't qualify. Iron Body required Construct Traits, and Warforged doesn't have it, and Exiled Modron too.

(especially considering that 1 more feat, and the 5 crappy vampire bonus feats could be traded in for another divine ability). Bonus feats are tradeable? :smallconfused:

In E6, you can acquire a ton of feats, and trade in 6 feats for another divine ability. How? No, seriously, I don't know how to get more feats than (HD/3)+(1st level)+(flaws)+(bonus feats from classes, race, or templates)

One could try to become a Vampire Lord to overcome some of the weaknesses, and still would be neigh-impossible to kill. Vampire Lord required 10th level, we speaking about E6

Ooze traits: Oozes apparently get blindsight. Yes, but it doesn't allow, say, read a book.

You can take a divine handicap to get an additional divine ability (along with trading feats for divine abilities). No, not exactly.
An immortal can have a single divine handicap Emphasis on "immortal". Lowest immortal is a Hero-deity. Disciple is Mortal, thus doesn't qualify for Divine Handicaps

[Ruethgar]

The rules of E6 give you a bonus feat every 5000xp after 6th level. Also fighters, paladins and clerics get 4 bonus feats at first level due to poor wording on the armor and shield proficiency feats. I'm AFB right now, but the Endless template may qualify you as an immortal.

[ShurikVch]

I'm AFB right now, but the Endless template may qualify you as an immortal. From where this template? I know only Endless (Ex) quality from Dragon #354

[Elderand]

The rules of E6 give you a bonus feat every 5000xp after 6th level. Also fighters, paladins and clerics get 4 bonus feats at first level due to poor wording on the armor and shield proficiency feats. I'm AFB right now, but the Endless template may qualify you as an immortal.

Template won't work, the book of immortals makes the distinction between bog standard immortals (aka, won't die) and their version of immortals (aka, gods)

[rweird]

Page 96 of immortals handbook outlines trading mortal (feats), divine, cosmic, transcendental, and omnific abilities for each other. I suppose it couldn't take a divine handicap, but Vampire giving 5 bonus feats which could be traded +1 feat for a second divine ability means vampire (without 5 rather lame feats) costs only 1 feat net. Vampire Lord requires 10th level, but lich requires 11th, and apparently can be used anyways. Doesn't every 3 feats beyond 6th level count as an additional "level" in E6?

Also, how would E6 handle the "extra level" ability? Would it allow you to break the E6 limit?

I agree that half-celestial and half-dragon can be overpriced LA-wise, but that doesn't mean you should be able to get it, and a quite solid template. Half-dragon more than half-[outsider], as outsider sort of scales with level. Half-dragon doesn't really scale. If it was +2 LA, the 6d8 breath weapon would be rather ridiculous vs CR 3 stuff, but incredibly lame vs CR 20 stuff. This is why LA buy off is a good variant (but not an effective one in E6). I know I wouldn't bring Half-Dragon below +1 LA. Half-[outsider], probably not below +2. I am arguing that Disciple giving these things and more, cheaper than elsewhere, will unbalance the game, especially as it allows you to eventually collect a slew of these by trading feats, which are more abundant in E6.

I don't see how fighters get 5 feats at first level.

[Ruethgar]

The special text under the light armor proficiency, medium armor proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, and shield proficiency feats all say that fighters paladins and clerics get them as bonus feats, however they also have a class feature that grants proficiencies making the feats redundant.

Before PHBII, Chaos Shuffle and Reformation these feats were useless. Now not so much. I of course ban Shuffle and Reformation for things like this, but allow Retraining for fighter bonus feats if they take more than three levels in the class(to discourage just pure dipping bit encourage some of the feat tax heavy things... like everything the fighter might try and do besides dungeon crashes and fear)

Edit: Stupid Siri and her fail dictation, may as well write it all out it need so much editing. At any rate, the light armor proficiency is actually granted to all classes save wizard, sorcerer, and monk, including commoners and bloodlines.

[ShurikVch]

Page 96 of immortals handbook outlines trading mortal (feats), divine, cosmic, transcendental, and omnific abilities for each other. I suppose it couldn't take a divine handicap, but Vampire giving 5 bonus feats which could be traded +1 feat for a second divine ability means vampire (without 5 rather lame feats) costs only 1 feat net. Good luck to get Wish or Miracle in E6 :smalltongue:

Vampire Lord requires 10th level, but lich requires 11th, and apparently can be used anyways. Lich required CL 11, not a level 11.
Say, Fiend Folio have that one planetouched race with CL 9 SLA.
Make it Lesser planetouched - now it's a humanoid, thus legal to Lich (and got rid of nasty LA).
Give it that one drug (from Book of Vile Darkness) which give temporary +2 CL.
Lo and behold, CL 11 at the very first level!
(In E6, more restricting factor is 120K gp cost for creation of phylactery)


Also, how would E6 handle the "extra level" ability? Would it allow you to break the E6 limit? Ask the DM.
You better tell me what's will happen if you select Cosmic Ability "Lord of Steel"?

[rweird]

With-granting entities exist in E6 (Efreeti, etc) right?

As you hopefully are aware, the Immortal's Handbook project was (perhaps thankfully?) left unfinished, and numerous times refers to stuff that doesn't exist. However, as it is a Cosmic ability, you'd have to be an immortal to select it. If you mention questionable interpretations for getting that CL, I'm sure you could get wishes, especially as a disciple is a god's chosen servant, and rather favored.

[ShurikVch]

IHB isn't really even balanced against itself Just like the PHB! :smallbiggrin:

At any rate, the light armor proficiency is actually granted to all classes save wizard, sorcerer, and monk, including commoners and bloodlines. And animals too! After all, they are not a wizards, sorcerers, or monks... :smallamused:


With-granting entities exist in E6 (Efreeti, etc) right? And how exactly you will get em? Sacrifice rules from BoVD is more reliable, but it's only once a lifetime...

[rweird]

Just like the PHB! :smallbiggrin:

And the best thing to do with an already unbalanced system is add more wildly unbalanced things to it.


And how exactly you will get em? Sacrifice rules from BoVD is more reliable, but it's only once a lifetime...

Diplomacy could work, having at-will suggestion from a domain would be another good way (take supernatural transformation if you don't want to worry about SR). Chain-gating is cheesy, but could work once you get one wish. Sacrifice from BoVD also could work, and kind of makes sense that your god would send someone to help when you are their chosen. Praying for divine intervention (from IHB) has a small chance. This (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/2149871) could work for scribing scrolls of Wish or whatever with a little tweaking (drop an artificer level, pick up/craft a CL boosting item). Say "Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu" :smalltongue: Or you could, you know, try a more roleplaying way, and as a god's favored servant, convince a Solar/Palentar/your god/whatever that serves your god to help you to advance the faith, possibly do some quest or something.

So, restating answers to the questions.
1) No. Not unless a player specifically asks to use IHB in the premise, in which case I might agree to DM such a thing.
2) If the DM makes it clear he wants this, although I'd likely expect the game to crash and burn. If its kind of a side thing allowed without much thought, I'd probably warn the DM, and consider stepping out.
3) More powerful than D&D typically is. If it is abused, even more powerful. If both are abused, much much more powerful.

[The Glyphstone]

E6's design intent is lower-level play where the classes are still within shouting distance of balance. Immortals Handbook is what happens when you strap boxing gloves to an epileptic monkey, sit it in front of a number pad for an hour, then edit the results into stat blocks - the exact opposite of E6.

This isn't mixing chocolate and peanut butter. This is finding out that the local government has passed a law limiting the engine speed of cars, so you strap rocket boosters to your roof.

[ShurikVch]

This isn't mixing chocolate and peanut butter. This is finding out that the local government has passed a law limiting the engine speed of cars, so you strap rocket boosters to your roof. Actually, I consider IHB's Divine abilities more balanced than 3.5 SDA's
Because, come on, what's we see in the SRD? Spontaneous Wizard Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#spontaneousWizardSpells), Arcane Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#arcaneMastery), Alter Reality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterReality)...

In the IHB, at least, all most insane stuff concentrated in Cosmic abilities or higher
And Cosmic abilities intended mostly for Sidereals - Overgods in our terms, and how often you stat overgod which is not named Pun-Pun? Even those abilities which can be gained early are required, for example, skill ranks 70 or something similarly high-leveled

[Ruethgar]

If you really want playable divinity in E6 I would go with the Legends and Lairs: Spells and Spellcraft rules for Small Gods. I would be hesitant to take too much else from that book, but the godhood isn't all that powerful and would mostly just add flavor and RP possibilities.

The basics of it are that any CR 5+ creature can become a god, gaining the Divine quality which just allows you to hear prayers and grant divine spells(not even a domain until CR 18). As long as you have X number of followers you can support Y number of Z level disciples(divine spellcasters). XY&Z are based on your CR but can be traded, +/- CR followers for -/+ CR lvl of disciples. You also have to answer some of their prayers if they make their Knowledge Religion checks.

[rweird]

I would say that both IHB and Deities and Demigods have some really unbalanced stuff. While some parts are more balanced than the SRD, it is geared for higher level play. None the less, I don't think anyone here would argue that introducing the Deities and Demigod's system for divine ranks is a balanced thing for E6.

Immortal's Handbook however, gives ways for practically anyone to become a god if they kill enough outsiders, assuming they go on a small adventure. Deities and Demigods leaves it more open to the DM, and entirely possible to be "Players don't have, and never will get this" rather than "here are the steps for a player to get this."

[NichG]

If the DM is already including IHB, then presumably he doesn't mind if the players get access to it?

[ShurikVch]

If the DM is already including IHB, then presumably he doesn't mind if the players get access to it? Truth. If IHB is not among the allowed books, then what's the point to ask? And if it is, then why not to use what's you can?..


I would say that both IHB and Deities and Demigods have some really unbalanced stuff. While some parts are more balanced than the SRD, it is geared for higher level play. None the less, I don't think anyone here would argue that introducing the Deities and Demigod's system for divine ranks is a balanced thing for E6. And it's why I selected IHB rather than Deities and Demigods

Immortal's Handbook however, gives ways for practically anyone to become a god if they kill enough outsiders, assuming they go on a small adventure. Deities and Demigods leaves it more open to the DM, and entirely possible to be "Players don't have, and never will get this" rather than "here are the steps for a player to get this." But IHB works completely of HD - if you don't have it, then you can't take whatever it required; and it's only actual Hit Dice - pseudo-levels such as LA, Bloodlines, or "bonus feat every 5000 XP" doesn't count. Number of HD in E6 is strictly limited.
Yes, you can collect quintessence by killing dretches or something, but the only use you have for it is spend 5000 of it to turn your six feat into Divine ability; you couldn't even create other Disciples, because you are not Immortal


And the best thing to do with an already unbalanced system is add more wildly unbalanced things to it. Fight fire with fire! :smallbiggrin:

Diplomacy could work, having at-will suggestion from a domain would be another good way (take supernatural transformation if you don't want to worry about SR). The problem is to actually meet the Wish-granter rather than convincing to cooperate

Chain-gating is cheesy, but could work once you get one wish. Isn't it a strictly TO? "Thou shalt never wish for more wishes." So, any Wish-granter will strictly refuse to call more of his kind no matter what

This (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/2149871) could work for scribing scrolls of Wish or whatever with a little tweaking (drop an artificer level, pick up/craft a CL boosting item). Isn't Artificer universally banned in E6?

[rweird]

Meeting wish-granters: Send for them. Go on a quest. Pray to your god to send one.

Quintessence accumulation: Reading IHB, I don't see anywhere where it says "something without sufficient HD to gain further divine ranks cannot regardless of amount of Quintessence." Apotheosis simply states that they need the required amount of Quintessence, it doesn't give a HD limit. If the template saying "min HD" means that it'd raise their HD, disqualify them, or be ignored, I don't know (gee, its almost like immortal's handbook was poorly written and incomplete). It mentions it being a suggestion, so I assume you could get too deity status eventually by ascending in game.

Chain-gating: Yeah, pretty close, although the ultimate effect of this is "I trade 6 feats for a divine ability", something the rules put precedent for.

Artificer: Not that I know of, perhaps it is. I can't remember that being the case. Anyways, becoming a lich like how you described seems rather out their too, and numerous games play without BoVD, or converted 3.0 stuff in general. I've never read that Artificer is universally banned in E6.

NichG: I think this is more a hypothetical discussion. I'm not quite sure. It mentions asking opinions on IHB as an E6 DM too.

[ShurikVch]

Quintessence accumulation: Reading IHB, I don't see anywhere where it says "something without sufficient HD to gain further divine ranks cannot regardless of amount of Quintessence." Apotheosis simply states that they need the required amount of Quintessence, it doesn't give a HD limit. If the template saying "min HD" means that it'd raise their HD, disqualify them, or be ignored, I don't know (gee, its almost like immortal's handbook was poorly written and incomplete). It mentions it being a suggestion, so I assume you could get too deity status eventually by ascending in game. You also missing one thing: Level Adjustment.
In E6 you couldn't have it above +4.
Prophet (Herald of...) have +6, thus illegal, just like all Immortals, Sidereals, and Eternals

Artificer: Not that I know of, perhaps it is. I can't remember that being the case. ... I've never read that Artificer is universally banned in E6. It's actually was strongly suggested exactly because Artificer can "sidestep" E6 spell level cap.

Anyways, becoming a lich like how you described seems rather out their too, and numerous games play without BoVD, or converted 3.0 stuff in general. It was one of the best, but far from only variants. For example, what's you say about this:Duergar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dwarf.htm#duergar) Crusader 6
At 6th level his Enlarge Person and Invisibility SLAs are at CL 12 - 1 more than required for Lich
(And Lesser Duergar will do even better)

[rweird]

I was under the impression that you don't have to follow LA restrictions in game, you just need to play catch-up for example, if you become a Vampire, you don't automatically die (as you'd need to lose 8 levels but its E6), or find it impossible. Incidentally, it just mentions races acting that way, not templates. However, you don't need to have caught up to get another divinity template, simply to have enough Quintessence. The HD limit is just a suggestion, and from what I understand, acquiring templates is instantaneous and they are "payed back" however nothing stops you from going really far in debt.

Odd, I don't recall reading that artificers are banned. Still, I don't feel that your lich thing is going in the spirit of the lich rules any more than my artificer. Point of clarification: That crusader wouldn't work, it needs to be able to cast spells, not use SLAs, but a wizard 6 would work by a technicality. I feel like the being able to retrain isn't really out of the question. Cleric with DMM Heighten and Extra Spell Slot could get a 5th level slot for Planar Ally or Plane Shift. There are plenty of ways to get wish/miracle.

Considering you are arguing WotC rules exploits to allow things normally out of reach in E6 as valid, surely you'd accept that IHB has exploits included too. If I want to be bitten by a Lycanthrope, then get killed by a Vampire and arise as another vampire, thats 10 LA and at least 2 RHD. Heck, you could become a Vampire Lord with the additional HD if you are a weretiger or something.