How can they nerf you? Can we count the ways?

[Hiro Quester]

With a high level caster, you have a massive investment in ways of surviving just about any unforeseen problem. You have contingencies on your contingencies. The rest of your party wait for ages in the morning before you finish putting your buffs on.


But what do you need to protect against? Can we make a list of the eventualities most high-level characters might find it prudent to prepare against?

Different characters with different skills sets, casting styles (divine or arcane, etc.), and different budgets, might prepare in different ways. But there are a good number of common problems or attacks most such characters would want to be prepared for.


EDIT: "prepare" does not necessarily mean prevent. It can mean have a plan in place to quickly recover. For example, my previous bard/sublime chord character, always carried a scroll of joyful noise in case he was silenced. Though prevention is more action efficient, you can't prevent everything.

Let me start a list. The objective is to have a comprehensive list of threats, that a PC could check off when they have a good way of minimizing that particular type of threat.

Please make suggestions to add to this less-than-complete list:

Physical dangers:

Melee attacks
Grappling
Critical Hits
Sneak Attack
Ranged attacks (e.g. Arrows)*
Energy attacks (fireball, lightning bolt, dragon breath, etc.)
Poison
Drowning /suffocation*
Dying (below 0 HP)


Types of attackers that need special preparation:

Undead
Fey
Dragons
Invisible*
Concealed*


Ability-affecting:

Ability damage
Fascinate/Charm/dominate
Blindness/darkness/invisible enemies
Vision impairing (fog, sleet storm, etc.)*
Weather (strong winds, storms, extremes of temperature)*
Fear effects (shaken to panicked)
Scrying

Theives/Pickpockets

Dispel Magic

Disjunction*

Death effects*
Energy Drain/Negative Levels*

Mobility/action affecting:

Immobilization (e,g, entangle, black tentacles, sleet storm)
Difficult terrain (grease)
Paralyzation
Petrification
Sickened/Nauseated
Exhaustion/Fatigue
Flat footed*


Effects attacks that negatively affect casting:

Feeblemind
Silence
Deafness
Grappling
Concentration disruption


I'm sure there are more. This is all I have time to write at the moment. I'm sure there are more that the playground can identify.

*added in response to comments below

[gorfnab]

The 3.5 Lists of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) details a great number of things all high level characters should be able to protect against.

[Hiro Quester]

I was thinking about that list. Once you have flight, mind blank, freedom of movement, heavy fortification armor, immunity to fear, poison, stun, etc. what else do you need to protect against?

I'm trying to collect a list of threats, so that you can go through the list and check off the threats you have controlled for, and notice where you are still vulnerable.

[Cruiser1]

I was thinking about that list. Once you have flight, mind blank, freedom of movement, heavy fortification armor, immunity to fear, poison, stun, etc. what else do you need to protect against?
Disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm). Much of the effort in composing high level builds is protecting against this being used on you, because it will automatically remove all your buffs and potentially destroy your magic items.

One cool potential defense against Disjuntion is to find a minor artifact in your adventures, and wear it around your neck. Broadcast around the multiverse that you're wearing this artifact, and many casters won't want to risk casting Disjunction on you, because if they do they might permanently lose all spellcasting abilities beyond the ability of mortal magic to recover!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Persistent Selective Spell Antimagic Field is, by far, hands-down, the most effective defense you can ever obtain.

Selective Spell in Shining South makes it so your spell doesn't affect you, meaning you get to ignore the antimagic field when determining your own status, buffs, and item effects, and when determining the results of any of your own actions, but nobody else is afforded this luxury. Everyone else in the antimagic field treats it like a normal antimagic field, even with regards to the caster who's selectively unaffected. Even opponents outside the antimagic field must determine the results of their actions as though the caster was within the effect of an antimagic field.

This protects against Disjunction and any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability that's not an instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) that originated from outside the AMF. Magical weapons are not magical when they hit him, because they're within the AMF.

Combined with Persistent Ray Deflection and a Starmantle Cloak in BoED, you're practically invulnerable. The Starmantle Cloak automatically destroys any nonmagical weapon that strikes you, both manufactured weapons and natural weapons, and every weapon that strikes you is within the AMF at the time it strikes you and is thus not a magical weapon when determining the effect of the Starmantle Cloak.

A Wizard/Incantatrix can achieve this level of protection at 11th level, and a Cleric or Archivist at 13th level with DMM: Persist and the right domain.


As for defenses against such a level of protection, assuming the protected creature also has Freedom of Movement and most/all of the other necessary item effects, you'll need Disjunction to break the AMF and/or a Cleric with Initiate of Mystra to be able to cast spells despite the AMF.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Get immunity to being flat-footed. Get a way to act as an immediate action (Celerity/Anticipatory Strike/Sense Danger). Stop wasting time and spell slots every morning on things you're not going to need that day. You can spend those on better things than paranoia.

For most enemies the only defense you really need is high saves with a reroll or two and the basic standards, like permanent Mind Blank, Death Ward and Freedom of Movement. Everything else is nice but hardly essential.

Getting immunity to everything is way to much trouble, especially for conditions that rarely come up (petrification) or are easily taken care of just with a high save and quickly neutralized with low level magic (poison, most energy damage).
All that accomplishes is forcing your DM into an arms race.

The most important thing is the ability to react quickly - immunity to flat-footed and some way to capitalize on it.

[Troacctid]

Get your saves up high and rawdog it. What's the worst that's gonna happen? :smallsmile:

[EastbySoutheast]

Persistent Selective Spell Antimagic Field is, by far, hands-down, the most effective defense you can ever obtain.

Selective Spell in Shining South makes it so your spell doesn't affect you, meaning you get to ignore the antimagic field when determining your own status, buffs, and item effects, and when determining the results of any of your own actions, but nobody else is afforded this luxury. Everyone else in the antimagic field treats it like a normal antimagic field, even with regards to the caster who's selectively unaffected. Even opponents outside the antimagic field must determine the results of their actions as though the caster was within the effect of an antimagic field.

This protects against Disjunction and any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability that's not an instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) that originated from outside the AMF. Magical weapons are not magical when they hit him, because they're within the AMF.

Combined with Persistent Ray Deflection and a Starmantle Cloak in BoED, you're practically invulnerable. The Starmantle Cloak automatically destroys any nonmagical weapon that strikes you, both manufactured weapons and natural weapons, and every weapon that strikes you is within the AMF at the time it strikes you and is thus not a magical weapon when determining the effect of the Starmantle Cloak.

A Wizard/Incantatrix can achieve this level of protection at 11th level, and a Cleric or Archivist at 13th level with DMM: Persist and the right domain.


As for defenses against such a level of protection, assuming the protected creature also has Freedom of Movement and most/all of the other necessary item effects, you'll need Disjunction to break the AMF and/or a Cleric with Initiate of Mystra to be able to cast spells despite the AMF.

Would the AMF hamper you slightly though? like if you have a Metamagic rod it would just cease to function?
its a small price to pay for the benefit but im interested

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Would the AMF hamper you slightly though? like if you have a Metamagic rod it would just cease to function?
its a small price to pay for the benefit but im interested

No, it wouldn't. It does not have any effect on your character or your attended items, and it does not have any effect on your actions.

[Hiro Quester]

Get your saves up high and rawdog it. What's the worst that's gonna happen? :smallsmile:

All the things that don't give you a saving throw. Like a critical hit from the rogue who sneak attacked you.

It's those kinds of thing (like blocking critical hits, e.g. with fortification armor) that I'm thinking of. Easily blocked with a small investment, but you have to remember to block that avenue of attack.




No, it wouldn't. It does not have any effect on your character or your attended items, and it does not have any effect on your actions.

The selective AMF is a nice idea for the heavily buffed fighter who attacks you.

But if it does not affect you, then magic missiles wouldn't be in the AMF when they hit you, would they? If your metamagic rod will work, then the magic missile or magically enhanced arrow that emerges out of the AMF into you would also affect you. Whenever it affects you, the AMF would not affect it.

So would the disintegrate or fireball. It would be suppressed except where it touches you.

But, again, the point of this thread isn't how to protect against each danger, but to make a list of common dangers it might be good to have some kind of protection against.

[Troacctid]

Like a critical hit from the rogue who sneak attacked you.

Sneak attack damage isn't multiplied on a critical hit, and they probably don't have a super-high Strength mod, so unless they're a greatsword-wielding rogue with Precise Strike + Power Attack or something, meh, I'm not too worried.

Concealment is better at stopping sneak attacks than fortification, anyway, since it works on every attack.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Sneak attack damage isn't multiplied on a critical hit, and they probably don't have a super-high Strength mod, so unless they're a greatsword-wielding rogue with Precise Strike + Power Attack or something, meh, I'm not too worried.

Concealment is better at stopping sneak attacks than fortification, anyway, since it works on every attack.

They probably have Craven and/or Shadow Blade, so there should be a good chunk of damage. But they're also most likely packing Penetrating Strike, so crit immunity isn't going to help much.

Similar for concealment - what high level rogue doesn't have some way to get True Seeing? It's better to get Improved Uncanny Dodge instead if you're worried about rogues. There are spells for that.:smalltongue: Or just get an immediate action teleport and a way to use it while surprised/flat footed and leave before he hits you.

[Anthrowhale]

Persistent Selective Spell Antimagic Field is, by far, hands-down, the most effective defense you can ever obtain.

Selective Spell in Shining South makes it so your spell doesn't affect you, meaning you get to ignore the antimagic field when determining your own status, buffs, and item effects...


Where is the rules support for your (spell-based) buffs not being affected by the AMF?

You are not affected by the text of Selective Spell.

Items are not affected because:

Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack.
and

All spells ... that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks.

But, none of the above applies to your buff stack which is neither you nor your carried or worn item, and hence the normal rules of AMF should apply to it.

[Werephilosopher]

But if it does not affect you, then magic missiles wouldn't be in the AMF when they hit you, would they? If your metamagic rod will work, then the magic missile or magically enhanced arrow that emerges out of the AMF into you would also affect you. Whenever it affects you, the AMF would not affect it.

So would the disintegrate or fireball. It would be suppressed except where it touches you.

If you set yourself as the excluded creature of a selective AMF, you are not affected by it; however, everyone else is, so everyone else is unable to cast spells into it (unless they are instantaneous conjurations).

[FocusWolf413]

If used well against mages, reciprocal gyre can be a nasty spell. It does (spell levels affecting the target, max 25)d6, will half, fort vs daze. It's only 5th level, so with metamatic, it can be enhanced. It's not amazing, but nobody will be prepared for it.

[Douglas]

For a fairly comprehensive list of what can be warded against with buff spells, and by what spells, check Team Solars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?188138-Team-Solars-%28Archiving%29). How much of that is common to actually encounter is another matter, but I spent quite a bit of time scouring every book I could find for spells to add to the buff list.

[Doctor Awkward]

Here's a write-up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?404670-1st-tier-casters-defend-vs-everything&p=18985343#post18985343) I posted for a thread a little while ago that asked how a 1st tier paranoid wizard can possibly defend against everything.

As far as how it relates to your list? Here are the specific things he can deal with every single day, with no special preparation.

Physical dangers:

Melee attacks - Everything except purely wooden weapons and unarmed attacks.
Grappling - at-will teleport
Critical Hits - Fortification
Sneak Attack - Fortification
Ranged attacks (e.g. Arrows)* - Wind Wall
Energy attacks (fireball, lightning bolt, dragon breath, etc.) - Energy Immunity
Poison - Heroes' Feast (cast by his simulacrum, he can actually cast this himself via Wish, but the XP cost means it's not something he can do every day)
Dying (below 0 HP) - Clone/familiar's Revivify

Types of attackers that need special preparation:

Invisible* - Permanent See Invisibility
Concealed* - Permanent Arcane Sight

Ability-affecting:

Fascinate/Charm/dominate - Mind Blank
Blindness/darkness/invisible enemies - Ebon Eyes/Arcane Sight/See Invisibility
Fear effects (shaken to panicked) - Heroes' Feast (cast by his simulacrum)
Scrying - Mind Blank

Theives/Pickpockets - Familiar's Mindsight

Disjunction* - Ring of Counterspells

Mobility/action affecting: - Freedom of Movement

Immobilization (e,g, entangle, black tentacles, sleet storm) - Freedom of Movement/At-will Teleport
Difficult terrain (grease) - Overland Flight
Flat footed* - Foresight

Effects attacks that negatively affect casting: - familiar's Dimension Door, any time he might be subject to such an affect, the familiar can simply use dimension door to move them both somewhere else. For general characters I'd say that a Contingent spell to that effect is the most effective defense. Anklet of Translocation, Abrupt Jaun conjuror variant, and so on.


As far as the outliers:

Petrification-
This is an odd effect. There is an armor enhancement in Complete Arcane called Proof Against Transmutation that makes you immune to all transmutation effects that alter your form, which covers not just petrification and polymorph, but also disintegration.

Exhaustion/Fatigue-
These don't really affect a mage all that much. For one thing, he rarely makes attack rolls to hit, and for another he can simply teleport or dimension door away from any areas that are actually a problem, rather than trying to move out of them like a mortal would.
The spell, Veil of Undeath, from the Spell Compendium can take care of such effects, either prepared and cast himself, or emulated via Wish.

Sickened/Nauseated-
This is another odd one, in that outright immunity isn't too common. The DMG has the Necklace of Adaptation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#necklaceofAdaptation), which can make you immune to the things that most commonly cause these conditions, but that's definitely not blanket immunity.
Naturally, Veil of Undeath can take care of both of these as well. Like above, simply being undead is an option for other characters.

[Nessa Ellenesse]

Using my level 14 mage ecvoker 5/ warmage 1 magus 8

Physical dangers:
Melee attacks Buff your AC with magic items and spells. After a run though Zagig's fun house my elf mage has bracers of armor +8, a ring of protection +1, a +1 mithril buckler and the following spells she can cast shield, dragonskin and sonic shield. or stay out of melee range with fly
Grappling heart of water this spell can be discarged for freedom of movement as a swift mental commant also still spell is good.
Critical Hits spells the combination of heart of air, heart of water, heart of earth and heart of fire or just use stone body
Sneak Attack see crit hits
Ranged attacks (e.g. Arrows)* reverse arrows.
Energy attacks (fireball, lightning bolt, dragon breath, etc.) contingency protection from energy
Poison reisistance superior and keep a potion of neuteralize poison on you
Dying (below 0 HP) keep items that you can heal yourself with on you. While you are under the effect of stone body you can heal yourself completely with mud to rock

Types of attackers that need special preparation:
Undead Light of lunia, mercria or venya (or just bring a cleric)
Fey depends if you can speak sylvan try diplomacy or just use cold iron
Dragons metalic speak draconic chomatic pray the rest of your party is with you
Invisible* true seeing
Concealed* true strike

Ability-affecting: stone body
Ability damage stone body
Fascinate/Charm/dominate on you reistancy superior on others break enchantment
Blindness/darkness/invisible enemies deeper darkvision or true seeing tremor sence
Fear effects (shaken to panicked) calm emotions
Scrying mordenkain's private santume
Theives/Pickpockets belt of hidden pockets, pouchecs leomunds secret chest or just make friends with the party theif hopefully he or she will watch your back and the only thing the theif or pickpocket will get is a not on my watch note

Dispel Magic not really much you can do I watched helplessly as some diomond goloms took down the defensive and buffing spells I put on my companions. Cut through them like a hot knife through butter, on the other hand I got them back by turning them into a pile of dust with shatter.

Disjunction* Letting people know you have an artiffact is a double edged sword. One they won't want to cast disjuntion on you but two they will try to steal the artifact. This is the option of last resort for many spell casters, because you have neat stuff and they want it. In addition to Zagig's staff of the Magi my mage has managed to acquire a Baccob's Blessed Book (where all her spells are) bracker's of armor +8 ring of wizardry 1 circlet of rapid casting and a metamagic rod of extend any one of these items would make all but the most insane wizard think twice before casting disjuntion on her. (Also I am married to the DM)

Mobility/action affecting:
Immobilization (e,g, entangle, black tentacles, sleet storm) Heart of water
Difficult terrain (grease) greater floating disk or fly
Paralyzation heart of water
Petrification make sure a party member has a magic item that can undo this, never travel alone
Sickened/Nauseated stone body you become immuse
Exhaustion/Fatiguestone body you become immuse
Flat footed* can't help you there other than don't travel alone

Effects attacks that negatively affect casting:

Silence move (times like this I wish I had silent spell)
Deafness(times like this I wish I had silent spell)
Grappling heart of water
Concentration disruption max ranks conentration (also consider combat casting)

[avr]

Just adding a few other things to defend against.

Death effects. Dunno how you missed it!

Drowning & suffocation.

High winds. Unusual as a problem but surprisingly awkward when it comes up.

And maybe visibility problems; fog, darkness, illusions etc.

[Hiro Quester]

Just adding a few other things to defend against.

Death effects. Dunno how you missed it!

Drowning & suffocation.

High winds. Unusual as a problem but surprisingly awkward when it comes up.

And maybe visibility problems; fog, darkness, illusions etc.

Thanks Avr. I don't know how I missed death effects either. Added these to the list.

And to clarify: the list is not necessarily for a morning buff that uses all your spell slots.

The objective is just to be prepared for things such that if this happened to you you could deal with it

For example, my bard /sublime chord always had a scroll of Joyful Noise on him in case he was silenced.

[Arbane]

Energy drain/negative levels?

[bekeleven]

Would the AMF hamper you slightly though? like if you have a Metamagic rod it would just cease to function?
its a small price to pay for the benefit but im interested

Do note that Furiou's opinions on how that specific trick works are disputed.

The language is vague enough that you can basically get whatever you want out of it.

[Nessa Ellenesse]

Death effects. Dunno how you missed it! scarab of protection (my charater has one 10 spots left) or get something with death ward on it

Drowning & suffocation. water breathing or heart of water for drowning stone body for suffocation (you don't need to breath with that one

High winds. Unusual as a problem but surprisingly awkward when it comes up. stone body you weigh 4 times as much less likly to get knocked over.

And maybe visibility problems; fog, darkness, illusions etc. true seeing



The benifit of being a mage, there is no problem you cannot solve with the right spell except one. You have to know what you are going to need before you need it.

[Douglas]

The benifit of being a mage, there is no problem you cannot solve with the right spell except one. You have to know what you are going to need before you need it.
Actually, that can be solved by magic too. Augury, Divination, Contact Other Plane, etc.