Why was Sabine angry about Nale's death?

[Quartz]

Why was Sabine angry about Nale's death? As I see it there are two possibilities: firstly that she genuinely felt for Nale, or secondly that because she wasn't there she didn't get his soul.

The first seems unlikely given her nature - she's an incarnation of evil lust, after all - but then we don't see anyone else grabbing his soul - wasn't Qarr there?

[Zyzzyva]

She (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html) loves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html) him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html), and is angry that he's dead.

That's about it.

[TheCountAlucard]

She loved him, and is angry that he's dead.

That's about it.Got it in one. Thread solved. :smallwink:

[The Giant]

"Emotions are tricky. You can't really separate the ones you want from the ones you don't."

[VanaGalen]

Even incarnations of evil lust have their loved ones. Probably their alignment discrepancy didn't help, as she couldn't hope to see him in the afterlife.

[Lissou]

Is it a serious question?

Sabine is in a long-term relationship with Nale (illicit sex with others notwithstanding. She's a succubus so that's par for the course). She showed herself willing to compromise herself for Nale back in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html) if you want a direct example, but I think aside from that you can still tell how much she genuinely cares for Nale. So, they're both Evil. Doesn't mean they can't be in love and genuinely upset if the other gets hurt (or killed).

Really, you might as well ask (if Elan had died instead) "why was Haley upset that Elan died? Is it because she isn't going able to take all his loot? But we didn't see anyone else looting him so what gives?"

[Zyzzyva]

"Emotions are tricky. You can't really separate the ones you want from the ones you don't."

Hieronymous "Dr Phil" Grubbwiggler, everyone! :smallwink:

I think we're developing a theme for book 6...

[woweedd]

Just because she's evil doesn't mean she can't love.

[ti'esar]

Hieronymous "Dr Phil" Grubbwiggler, everyone! :smallwink:

I think we're developing a theme for book 6...

Man, who would have ever thought the froggy mad scientist would be one of the characters to provide us with valuable insight into the human(ish) condition?

[Gift Jeraff]

The first seems unlikely given her nature - she's an incarnation of evil lust, after all
Reported for racism.


"Emotions are tricky. You can't really separate the ones you want from the ones you don't."
Reported for spam.

[martianmister]

Reported for racism.

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[An Enemy Spy]

I think you are missing a fundamental part of Nale and Sabine's relationship. They really, genuinely love each other. In an evil, messed up, human sacrifice way, sure, but it's love. And if she is so casual about having sex with other men that she doesn't even feel it's important enough to bring up, well she's a succubus, what do you expect?

[TinyMushroom]

Man, who would have ever thought the froggy mad scientist would be one of the characters to provide us with valuable insight into the human(ish) condition?

How about the humanoid condition? :smallwink:

To be honest I don't really see why it's that hard to believe that Sabine can be anything but a manipulative hag out to exploit him (see every strip previously linked to in this thread since I'm lazy). She may be screwed up and evil but you gotta remember so is he.

[Rodin]

How about the humanoid condition? :smallwink:

To be honest I don't really see why it's that hard to believe that Sabine can be anything but a manipulative hag out to exploit him (see every strip previously linked to in this thread since I'm lazy). She may be screwed up and evil but you gotta remember so is he.

They may be sick, but their relationship is healthy!

[GM_3826]

...Please tell me you're joking.
Edit: To make this perfectly clear, I have no idea why you would even miss such a major theme in the comic.

[davidbofinger]

Why was Sabine angry about Nale's death?

A better question might be why she thinks death is such a big deal. After all, when Roy was dead both he (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0601.html) and Celia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html) independently observed that for someone accustomed to travelling between worlds, details like death and golemhood were surmountable problems. Sabine can certainly visit the dimension where Nale is now, and I'm guessing has enough pull with the IFCC that she could get conjugal visits. Why doesn't she shrug?

Answers that occur to me, not intended to be an exhaustive list:

It's not in her nature to shrug. She's an angry person.
Nale is in a really unpleasant place and Sabine can't get him out.
Sabine can't visit nearly as often as she used to or would like, maybe not at all for some reason.
Sabine is angry about the termination of Nale's plans, rather than his life, since she knows he cares a lot about his schemes.
Getting a lot of XPs and levels in the prime material is the way to get a good job in hell and now Nale can't.
Sabine is afraid Nale will hook up with another of hell's succubi.


Anyway, Nale obviously didn't want to die so it makes sense her sympathy for him is translated into anger at those who killed him. But I think there's still a good deal of ambiguity in the nuance.

[Windscion]

I actually stopped a minute to think about it when it happened. Not so much that she got angry, as that she got angry in front of the directors (who include her boss.)
You see, Sabine was supposed to lead Nale unto bigger and better evil. He was, in a sense, her meal ticket. When Nale died, her career took a nose dive. All that hard work down the drain! And if questioned by her superiors, that is all she has to say. Or even the more ambiguously, "I had a lot invested in that guy!", which covers both meanings.

[SavageWombat]

[QUOTE=Zyzzyva;19126089]Hieronymous "Dr Phil" Grubbwiggler, everyone! :smallwink:

Maybe next time Xykon's using the Teevo, we could see Grubbwiggler on his new talk show?

[goto124]

I once asked why Sabine was evil.

Come to think of it, Sabine might have lots of trouble retrieving Nale from Hell if she tried... laws and all...

[Keltest]

I once asked why Sabine was evil.

Come to think of it, Sabine might have lots of trouble retrieving Nale from Hell if she tried... laws and all...

Theres one problem with that. She's chaotic.

[Xihirli]

"Emotions are tricky. You can't really separate the ones you want from the ones you don't."

Yes.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html
Being in a stable relationship with someone doesn't make you not Evil.

Also, Tarquin stated that he couldn't think of "anyone else who spent any time with Nale who didn't at least entertain the idea [of killing Nale]." That's something that could make Sabine angry. Tarquin basically added insult to injury upon killing Nale by adding that no one loved him.
Though she DID once entertain the idea when she caught Nale trying to kill Haley.

[Xihirli]

Theres one problem with that. She's chaotic.

Is she? She seems to work for Lee. She never goes against any of Nale's plans. I'd put her at Lawful or Neutral. Where do they state that she is Chaotic?
Also, the "evil opposite" theme. Elan is Chaotic Good, Nale is Lawful Evil. Thog is Chaotic Evil, Roy is Lawful Good. Hylga was also probably Chaotic Evil, considering her hatred of Dwarven customs.
Yikyik and Belkar were probably about the same.
So, to be Haley's evil opposite, shouldn't she be Lawful Evil?

[Keltest]

Is she? She seems to work for Lee. She never goes against any of Nale's plans. I'd put her at Lawful or Neutral. Where do they state that she is Chaotic?
Also, the "evil opposite" theme. Elan is Chaotic Good, Nale is Lawful Evil. Thog is Chaotic Evil, Roy is Lawful Good. Hylga was also probably Chaotic Evil, considering her hatred of Dwarven customs.
Yikyik and Belkar were probably about the same.
So, to be Haley's evil opposite, shouldn't she be Lawful Evil?

Succubi are "always" chaotic evil, being demons. And the opposite alignment thing isn't quite that clear cut. Among other things, Nale is more than likely not Lawful, whatever he may say.

[Spriteless]

Did it ever get cleared out whether Sabine was a Succubi or an Erinyes? I remember the ambiguity was why Haley shot two arrows at her in there first fight. Personally, ever since seeing her three bosses, I've head-cannoned her as being of mixed race, with no one else to turn to. I am kind of angsty like that.

[Zyzzyva]

Did it ever get cleared out whether Sabine was a Succubi or an Erinyes? I remember the ambiguity was why Haley shot two arrows at her in there first fight. Personally, ever since seeing her three bosses, I've head-cannoned her as being of mixed race, with no one else to turn to. I am kind of angsty like that.

She's a succubus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html).

[Keltest]

Did it ever get cleared out whether Sabine was a Succubi or an Erinyes? I remember the ambiguity was why Haley shot two arrows at her in there first fight. Personally, ever since seeing her three bosses, I've head-cannoned her as being of mixed race, with no one else to turn to. I am kind of angsty like that.

The joke wasn't that they couldn't tell her apart from an Erinyes, but that they kept changing whether succubi were demons or devils.

[EyethatBinds]

She's a succubus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html).

Which is weird because I'm fairly certain the "Directors" first letter of their name indicates their alignment. Nero-Neutral, Lee-Lawful, and Cedric-Chaotic.

Which is further supported by later statements by Quaar from a comic I cannot recall the numerical code for and don't want to bother sifting through the archive. Since one comes up with the ideas, one handles unexpected situations, and the third keeps them working together.

[Aerii]

Is she? She seems to work for Lee. She never goes against any of Nale's plans. I'd put her at Lawful or Neutral. Where do they state that she is Chaotic?
Also, the "evil opposite" theme. Elan is Chaotic Good, Nale is Lawful Evil. Thog is Chaotic Evil, Roy is Lawful Good. Hylga was also probably Chaotic Evil, considering her hatred of Dwarven customs.
Yikyik and Belkar were probably about the same.
So, to be Haley's evil opposite, shouldn't she be Lawful Evil?

Roy stresses that they aren't exactly "equal opposites" just because they are different, and that includes alignment. They don't have to be on opposite ends of the spectrum; it could be a difference of good/evil or lawful/chaotic. Sabine doesn't seem like the lawful type to me.


Succubi are "always" chaotic evil, being demons. And the opposite alignment thing isn't quite that clear cut. Among other things, Nale is more than likely not Lawful, whatever he may say.

I agree that Nale isn't too lawful. Maybe at first, but his character has become much more chaotic, and although he leads and strategizes like a lawful person, it's way too messy to be orderly.

I suppose this would (arguably) put Nale and Sabine in the same alignment, just like Elan and Haley, and they would still be opposites.

[Xihirli]

No, she was consistently a demon.
But Rich has always been against something being "always" or "usually" a certain alignment. That applies to Law as it does to Evil. It doesn't matter if her species is "always/usually chaotic." None of her actions have been characteristic of Chaotic characters. She's quite a bit more Lawful than Nale. So I'm sure she'll be able to at least visit him in the Neutral/Lawful Evil Afterlife.

[Kish]

Which is weird because I'm fairly certain the "Directors" first letter of their name indicates their alignment. Nero-Neutral, Lee-Lawful, and Cedric-Chaotic.

Which is further supported by later statements by Quaar from a comic I cannot recall the numerical code for and don't want to bother sifting through the archive. Since one comes up with the ideas, one handles unexpected situations, and the third keeps them working together.
Yes, and Sabine is a demon whose direct superior in the IFCC is a devil. The entire point of the IFCC is integrating the three fiendish races, after all. They probably placed Qarr under Cedrik.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Which is weird because I'm fairly certain the "Directors" first letter of their name indicates their alignment. Nero-Neutral, Lee-Lawful, and Cedric-Chaotic.

Which is further supported by later statements by Qaar from a comic I cannot recall the numerical code for and don't want to bother sifting through the archive. Since one comes up with the ideas, one handles unexpected situations, and the third keeps them working together.

Yes, the names are coded. No, it doesn't matter much. Lee has a succubus under him. Cedrik went to college with devils.

It was Sabine who pointed out the interactions of the three to Vaarsuvius, during that rather eventful 20 minutes and 35 seconds.

[Morquard]

No, she was consistently a demon.
Sabine has always been a demon, but Succubi have changed between Devil and Demon in the various editions of D&D. For example in 4th edition they're devils.

[Kish]

That is: Succubi change to devils in 4ed. In 2ed, they're demons. In 3.0ed, they're demons. In 3.5ed, they're demons. In 1ed...they might be called "Type V demons" or something like that rather than succubi, but I would be amazed to learn that there were succubi and they were devils.

[Douglas]

A better question might be why she thinks death is such a big deal. After all, when Roy was dead both he (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0601.html) and Celia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html) independently observed that for someone accustomed to travelling between worlds, details like death and golemhood were surmountable problems. Sabine can certainly visit the dimension where Nale is now, and I'm guessing has enough pull with the IFCC that she could get conjugal visits. Why doesn't she shrug?
She's angry because he was killed in such a way that she cannot feasibly bring him back. He's dead and is going to stay dead, with a full-up 9th level True Resurrection spell as the only possible way to bring him back. Redcloak is the only known character capable of casting that spell, and good luck convincing him to do it for someone like Nale. Celia and Roy had the knowledge that a) all they needed was a 7th level Resurrection spell, and b) a friendly cleric already capable of casting that spell was part of Roy's team and would do it for free.

It might be possible for Sabine to visit Nale's dead soul, but said dead soul is most likely some demon's thoroughly abused underling as long as he stays dead. Not exactly a position she'd be happy about an ambitious person she supports and cares for being in.

[Keltest]

That is: Succubi change to devils in 4ed. In 2ed, they're demons. In 3.0ed, they're demons. In 3.5ed, they're demons. In 1ed...they might be called "Type V demons" or something like that rather than succubi, but I would be amazed to learn that there were succubi and they were devils.

No, theyre still succubi. And they come with an illustration as well. Ill bet the artists had a fun time with the fiend folio and the like.

[Shining Wrath]

A better question might be why she thinks death is such a big deal. After all, when Roy was dead both he (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0601.html) and Celia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html) independently observed that for someone accustomed to travelling between worlds, details like death and golemhood were surmountable problems. Sabine can certainly visit the dimension where Nale is now, and I'm guessing has enough pull with the IFCC that she could get conjugal visits. Why doesn't she shrug?

Answers that occur to me, not intended to be an exhaustive list:

It's not in her nature to shrug. She's an angry person.
Nale is in a really unpleasant place and Sabine can't get him out.
Sabine can't visit nearly as often as she used to or would like, maybe not at all for some reason.
Sabine is angry about the termination of Nale's plans, rather than his life, since she knows he cares a lot about his schemes.
Getting a lot of XPs and levels in the prime material is the way to get a good job in hell and now Nale can't.
Sabine is afraid Nale will hook up with another of hell's succubi.


Anyway, Nale obviously didn't want to die so it makes sense her sympathy for him is translated into anger at those who killed him. But I think there's still a good deal of ambiguity in the nuance.

I'll throw out this idea:

It meant that Tarquin won and Nale lost, and Sabine wanted to see Nale win.
Also, your second idea has merit. We know that some dead suffer, and not just evil ones; Roy's dad couldn't ascend Celestia and it irritated him mightily.

[GM_3826]

If I remember correctly, 4e didn't HAVE demons. Or was that yugoloths?

But anyways, I understand that I can't expect people not to say stupid things when I did on my first post in the OOTS discussion theads, but come on.

[Keltest]

If I remember correctly, 4e didn't HAVE demons. Or was that yugoloths?

But anyways, I understand that I can't expect people not to say stupid things when I did on my first post in the OOTS discussion theads, but come on.

It still had demons versus devils. But they decided that succubi made better temptresses than maniacs, so they swapped them with Erinyes. And just to confuse people more, they changed Erinyes to look more like succubi.

[GM_3826]

It still had demons versus devils. But they decided that succubi made better temptresses than maniacs, so they swapped them with Erinyes. And just to confuse people more, they changed Erinyes to look more like succubi.

...
4th Edition had it's pros and cons, but there's a reason why people hated it so much.

[Ravens_cry]

No, theyre still succubi. And they come with an illustration as well. Ill bet the artists had a fun time with the fiend folio and the like.
Lots of (often crudely) drawn monochrome nipples in 1st edition AD&D.
It was a simpler time.

[Jay R]

Which is weird because I'm fairly certain the "Directors" first letter of their name indicates their alignment. Nero-Neutral, Lee-Lawful, and Cedric-Chaotic.

More than that. The first two letters of their names are NE (Neutral Evil), LE (Lawful Evil), and CE Chaotic Evil.

I keep hoping that Qarr will turn out to be Quixotic Amoral.

[Emperordaniel]

More than that. The first two letters of their names are NE (Neutral Evil), LE (Lawful Evil), and CE Chaotic Evil.

I keep hoping that Qarr will turn out to be Quixotic Amoral.

If so, what does the SA in Sabine's alignment stand for? :smalleek:

[Bird]

I'm still predicting that Nale was actually CE, and so he's in for an afterlife reunion with Thog and Sabine. Don't think we'll see it for a while, though.

[Ravens_cry]

If so, what does the SA in Sabine's alignment stand for? :smalleek:
Seductive Amorous?

[An Enemy Spy]

Nale is clearly Lawful Evil. Why else would he so consistently keep to the same formula of fighting the OOTS over and over again? It also explains his obsession with needlessly complicated schemes. He must meticulously plan out every single detail of every plan he has while a chaotic villain would just improvise on the fly.

[137beth]

Man, who would have ever thought the froggy mad scientist would be one of the characters to provide us with valuable insight into the human(ish) condition?
Well, we are all used to getting our insights from a Giant, and that is a different creature type, so it's not that weird:smallbiggrin:

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Reported for Responding to Spam.
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It still had demons versus devils. But they decided that succubi made better temptresses than maniacs, so they swapped them with Erinyes. And just to confuse people more, they changed Erinyes to look more like succubi.
Yea, that through me off recently. I was adapting a 4e adventure/location to 3e (some of the published adventures for 4e had good locations for adventure, and good stat-blocks, but IMO poorly constructed plots and characters, so I came up with my own story set in the location of one of the published 4e adventures). One of the encounters in that module had a succubus fighting along side devils, with no comments about it being unusual. Which I thought was a bit odd for the race-segregated encounters normally in 4e adventures, until I rechecked the MM and was reminded that succubi were devils in 4e:smallredface:



Seductive Amorous?

I suppose that makes Nale Neutral Amoral, which would certainly be non-lawful. Tarquin's alignment is obviously Tyrannical A@#%ole. What does the EL in Elan stand for?

[Ravens_cry]

I suppose that makes Nale Neutral Amoral, which would certainly be non-lawful. Tarquin's alignment is obviously Tyrannical A@#%ole. What does the EL in Elan stand for?


Eclectically Looney!:elan: Roy is Righteous Obstinate!:roy: Belkar is Belligerenlyt Evil:belkar: Haley is Hedonistically Altruistic,:haley: Durkon is Devotedly Understanding :durkon:
Vaarsuvius is Very Androgynous :vaarsuvius:

[Reboot]

Nale is clearly Lawful Evil. Why else would he so consistently keep to the same formula of fighting the OOTS over and over again? It also explains his obsession with needlessly complicated schemes. He must meticulously plan out every single detail of every plan he has while a chaotic villain would just improvise on the fly.

But Elan inherited his mother's Chaotic Good alignment - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html - and Nale inherited her tendency to overcomplicated overplanning - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html

[An Enemy Spy]

Eclectically Looney!:elan: Roy is Righteous Obstinate!:roy: Belkar is Belligerenlyt Evil:belkar: Haley is Hedonistically Altruistic,:haley: Durkon is Devotedly Understanding :durkon:
Vaarsuvius is Very Androgynous :vaarsuvius:

Comments like this make me wish the site had a thumbs up button.

[Khay]

Nale is clearly Lawful Evil. Why else would he so consistently keep to the same formula of fighting the OOTS over and over again? It also explains his obsession with needlessly complicated schemes. He must meticulously plan out every single detail of every plan he has while a chaotic villain would just improvise on the fly.

Mh, I'm not really seeing it. Nale probably isn't Chaotic, but I don't think he's consistent enough to be Lawful. He didn't actually want to fight the OotS in the Empire - in his own words, he threw the assault together at the last minute. He's actually surprisingly good at improvising on the fly, or at least that tends to work out better for him than planning does. Later, he says he's glad to have shaken the "ridiculous evil opposites theme" - but then he immediately brings it up again when he tries to recruit Durkula. Also, he has no patience at all for trying to rule behind the scenes like his father, he's usually emotional rather than calculating, he doesn't follow any codes or traditions of law... really, his only Lawful character trait is his love of needlessly complicated plans. I'd peg Nale as Neutral Evil with Lawful posturing if anything.

He wants to be his own man, not a cog in some oh-so-clever scheme. He doesn't want charity, nepotism or pity, he wants NOTHING. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html) That's a Chaotic speech (well, spittle-flecked rant) if I've ever seen one.

[Rakoa]

Nale is clearly Lawful Evil. Why else would he so consistently keep to the same formula of fighting the OOTS over and over again? It also explains his obsession with needlessly complicated schemes. He must meticulously plan out every single detail of every plan he has while a chaotic villain would just improvise on the fly.

Nale did the whole Evil Opposite thing because he felt like it, and abandoned it on a whim in the pyramid because it no longer fit and he really didn't care. And planning does not equal lawfulness.

[Jay R]

If so, what does the SA in Sabine's alignment stand for? :smalleek:

Sabine's true name is in a demonic language with a very different alphabet. The first two letters are "aghnaritay" and "bladqiirit", and they stand for an alignment that cannot be fully understood by mortals.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If so, what does the SA in Sabine's alignment stand for? :smalleek:

Sexually Active.

[Gift Jeraff]

When Nale declared himself Lawful, he had only been out of Tarquin's reign for several months. He was probably taught his whole life that Lawful Evil is the only correct way to do anything, and given his opinion of himself, clearly that meant to him that he was the most Lawful and Evil of them all.

[veti]

She (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html) loves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html) him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html), and is angry that he's dead.

The trouble is that up to the point of Nale's death, all the evidence about their relationship is ambiguous. There's just no simple way to tell the difference between "actually in love" and "faking it".

Her reaction to Nale's death - is, I think, itself the clearest evidence there is.

[Lonely Tylenol]

A better question might be why she thinks death is such a big deal. After all, when Roy was dead both he (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0601.html) and Celia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html) independently observed that for someone accustomed to travelling between worlds, details like death and golemhood were surmountable problems. Sabine can certainly visit the dimension where Nale is now, and I'm guessing has enough pull with the IFCC that she could get conjugal visits. Why doesn't she shrug?

Answers that occur to me, not intended to be an exhaustive list:

To add to your list what I feel is the true reason for the difference:

After Nale was killed, the Psion disintegrated Nale's corpse, scattering his ashes to the four winds, stating that "Malack won't return; now, his killer won't either" (not verbatim). It's possible that in this world, resurrection without an intact corpse is not possible, and so Sabine and Nale will never be reunited on the Material Plane (with the nature of happenings done to souls sent to Hell unknown). Nale's death may have led to them never seeing each other again.

[Keltest]

To add to your list what I feel is the true reason for the difference:

After Nale was killed, the Psion disintegrated Nale's corpse, scattering his ashes to the four winds, stating that "Malack won't return; now, his killer won't either" (not verbatim). It's possible that in this world, resurrection without an intact corpse is not possible, and so Sabine and Nale will never be reunited on the Material Plane (with the nature of happenings done to souls sent to Hell unknown). Nale's death may have led to them never seeing each other again.

Disintegrated ashes theoretically count as part of a body, but for all practical purposes obtaining some is now impossible without some sort of wish spell.

[Douglas]

It's possible that in this world, resurrection without an intact corpse is not possible
This world runs on the rules of Dungeons and Dragons, edition 3.5. Under those rules, resurrection without a corpse is technically possible but requires the very highest level of magic. More specifically, the very highest level of *cleric* magic. Redcloak is the only character in the entire comic that has access to that, and he's one of the prime movers and shakers of the entire world at this point. It is quite likely that no one else exists, at all, that matches Redcloak's cleric casting ability, and he would require rather a lot of convincing to get him to raise someone like Nale.

[ti'esar]

The trouble is that up to the point of Nale's death, all the evidence about their relationship is ambiguous. There's just no simple way to tell the difference between "actually in love" and "faking it".

Her reaction to Nale's death - is, I think, itself the clearest evidence there is.

I feel like the interpretation that there was nothing serious to it was sunk as far back as 804 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html). That comic leaves it open to question who she'd side with between Nale and the IFCC - but the fact that it's a question at all is very telling.

[An Enemy Spy]

Mh, I'm not really seeing it. Nale probably isn't Chaotic, but I don't think he's consistent enough to be Lawful. He didn't actually want to fight the OotS in the Empire - in his own words, he threw the assault together at the last minute. He's actually surprisingly good at improvising on the fly, or at least that tends to work out better for him than planning does. Later, he says he's glad to have shaken the "ridiculous evil opposites theme" - but then he immediately brings it up again when he tries to recruit Durkula. Also, he has no patience at all for trying to rule behind the scenes like his father, he's usually emotional rather than calculating, he doesn't follow any codes or traditions of law... really, his only Lawful character trait is his love of needlessly complicated plans. I'd peg Nale as Neutral Evil with Lawful posturing if anything.

He wants to be his own man, not a cog in some oh-so-clever scheme. He doesn't want charity, nepotism or pity, he wants NOTHING. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html) That's a Chaotic speech (well, spittle-flecked rant) if I've ever seen one.

Not wanting to be helped by someone you hate and resent is somehow incompatible with a Lawful alignment? That doesn't make any sense.

[Lonely Tylenol]

This world runs on the rules of Dungeons and Dragons, edition 3.5. Under those rules, resurrection without a corpse is technically possible but requires the very highest level of magic. More specifically, the very highest level of *cleric* magic. Redcloak is the only character in the entire comic that has access to that, and he's one of the prime movers and shakers of the entire world at this point. It is quite likely that no one else exists, at all, that matches Redcloak's cleric casting ability, and he would require rather a lot of convincing to get him to raise someone like Nale.

I know True Resurrection can bring someone back without a body (or Miracle or some such to restore the body, plus a lesser form of resurrection), but has Redcloak (or anyone else for that matter) been shown to actually use it? I was of the mind that, since casting Disintegrate on a corpse you wish to stay dead was fairly common practice in higher level fights, it is possible that actual True Resurrection might not exist in this particular world--or it might be strictly reserved for gods and goddesses.

Either way, the disintegration of the corpse makes Nale's death functionally permanent. Even if True Resurrection is documented in-world, it's unlikely it will ever be cast on Nale.

[An Enemy Spy]

I know True Resurrection can bring someone back without a body (or Miracle or some such to restore the body, plus a lesser form of resurrection), but has Redcloak (or anyone else for that matter) been shown to actually use it? I was of the mind that, since casting Disintegrate on a corpse you wish to stay dead was fairly common practice in higher level fights, it is possible that actual True Resurrection might not exist in this particular world--or it might be strictly reserved for gods and goddesses.

Either way, the disintegration of the corpse makes Nale's death functionally permanent. Even if True Resurrection is documented in-world, it's unlikely it will ever be cast on Nale.

I'm fairly positive Rich has said that True Resurrection doesn't exist in OOTS because it would make death too easy to come back from.
Jokes about revolving doors aside, death in OOTS has so far been treated as a serious matter. How many people have been brought back to life so far? Roy, which took a LOT of time and effort, The Oracle, who saw it coming and planned accordingly, Durkon, who is locked in a struggle against an evil spirit, and Chrystal, who is an abomination who feels nothing but rage and pain.

[ti'esar]

I'm fairly positive Rich has said that True Resurrection doesn't exist in OOTS because it would make death too easy to come back from.

Specifically, he said he hates it because it's a narrative-wrecking spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255125-One-quick-question&p=13861815#post13861815). Whether that translates into it outright not existing isn't as clear, since Haley and Belkar discussed the possibility when Roy's body was turned into a golem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html).

As noted earlier, however, it's sort of a moot question since Redcloak is the only 17th-level cleric known to exist.

[Douglas]

The spell exists in OotS-world because characters have talked about it (as per ti'esar's Haley and Belkar link) in the comic, but it's unlikely to ever actually get used due to the narrative problems inherent in it being available. Maybe in an epilogue sequence as a finishing detail for how complete the "happily ever after" aspect of the ending is, I suppose, but even that is pushing it. If any character's death is to have a lasting impact (which might or might not be part of the story plan), and True Resurrection is available for any dead character, then there would need to be a reason for not applying it to the "dead and staying dead" character too.

[Khay]

Not wanting to be helped by someone you hate and resent is somehow incompatible with a Lawful alignment? That doesn't make any sense.

No, arguing that would be silly. My point is that Nale's not just rejecting Tarquin - he's doing so while expressing a strong desire for independence and self-direction, and emphasizing that he got rid of Malack his way. Nale's hate of Tarquin probably does play a role, and the outcome would probably be the same if Nale actually was LE, but he'd be arguing differently.