How can I shrink to fine?

[Pippin]

I would like to reduce my wizard's size to fine, but I don't know how to do that without changing his form as well. I'm aware of minute form, but adding this spell to his spellbook would require a feat or a PrC.

Any idea?

[Vizzerdrix]

What race, level and books are in use/ allowed? I only know a way to get a giant that small.

[Pippin]

What race, level and books are in use/ allowed? I only know a way to get a giant that small.
Any book is fine as long as it has the WotC license. Maybe Dragon magazines too. Never mind the race for now, I'm just curious.

He's a Lv17+ wizard.

[Cruiser1]

I would like to reduce my wizard's size to fine, but I don't know how to do that without changing his form as well. I'm aware of minute form, but adding this spell to his spellbook would require a feat or a PrC.
Cast Limited Wish, and use it to duplicate Psychic Reformation to change one of your feats so you can add Minute Form to your spellbook. Afterward, just cast Limited Wish again to restore the feat to what it originally was. :)

[FocusWolf413]

Polymorph any Object, Shapechange....

[Pippin]

Polymorph any Object, Shapechange....
These make the wizard change forms, don't they?

[Surpriser]

It would be sensible to simply allow Shapechange or PaO to reduce your size to Fine without changing your overall form. The rules e.g for Shapechange state that you are restricted to "the form of any single nonunique creature", so this might not work by RAW. On the other hand, I am sure that there is some fine humanoid that looks reasonably close to whatever race you had before. Refluffing this form to look just like your normal form should be easy (maybe remove any racial abilities they had before).

[Darrin]

Polymorph into a half-giant, have a Gatekeeper Druid cast return to nature (Eberron Campaign Setting p. 114) on you several times, then dismiss the polymorph.

Or you could find/create a fine-sized body of some sort and use Doc Roc's magic jar trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?200516) to switch bodies.

[Der_DWSage]

A bit of a corner case-a Rod of Wonder can sometimes reduce a person to 1/12th size, which could be argued as 'reduced by 3-4 size categories' judging by the fact that Reduce Person cuts their height in half. So 1/2 -> 1/4 -> 1/8 -> 1/16. It either counts as a Reduce Person spell and can be permanencied (Judging by the spell being linked in the SRD) or it's an instantaneous effect and lasts forever.

Not quite fine, but using a 12k item to go from Medium to Diminutive isn't anything to sneeze at.

[Bronk]

He's a Lv17+ wizard.

Sorry, I guess you picked the wrong class and probably race if you wanted to do this.

I see that the 'minute form' spell you mentioned is Wu Jen 8...

You could have started as a Jermalaine (tiny fey) psychic warrior and used an augmented 'compression' to get to Fine.

You could always try shapechanging into the form of a single shimmerling...

[Tvtyrant]

Don't worry, you're already fine. :smallamused: More seriously, a magic item of compression could drop you two sizes, so if you can be small naturally...

[Troacctid]

Hey, you're only 17, there's still time to take Wyrm Wizard.

[Melcar]

First of all I would simply allow Shapechange to do it. If you can reach the size by turning into a cresature that size, you should surely be able to just reduce or increase your size. I mean a level 1 spell can do that in a limited way.

Seccond if that was not allowed at all for some reason... Create your own polymorph spell, that redused or increased your size once for every casting or if the spell was high level, to the size you wanted! Easy... DOne!

[GreenSerpent]

Perhaps find some way to turn into a Hairy Spider (fine-sized Vermin, given LA+0 with MoF update)?

[Hiro Quester]

Interestingly this just happened to my forest gnome Druid PC in our game last night.

In a special magical/religious "dreamquest" ritual, I drank a special potion that has made me 1/10 my normal size. So I went from 2 1/2 feet tall to three inches tall. (I wish I could tell you that the DM didn't just home-brew this potion for story reasons, but he wanted to give us an "Alice in Wonderland" trippy adventure for a couple of nights. I doubt this is a standard potion.)

I'm now 3 inches tall, naked, and riding in the party rogue's pocket; my periapt of wisdom feels to me like it's the size of a softball around my neck.

I'm now trying to determine all the consequences of this change, and wondering how to take advantage of it. Better AC, better hide modifier, and wildshape will still turn me into a regular sized leopard, eagle, tiger or whatever. This isn't all bad. I almost wish it could be permanent, but it's probably temporary.

I'm curious, what advantages do you see in being fine-sized? How can I (and OP) take advantage of this?

[Metahuman1]

Well, for starters, you get a hellacious Dex bonus. If your getting Dex to hit/damage, that's useful right off the bat. More importantly however, it can be a nice bonus to both AC and touch AC, to reflex saves, certain skill checks like Hide and Move Silently and Tumble, and most of all, to your Initive Checks (Going first is AMAZING!).

From there, it gives further bonuses that stack with the dex bonuses (and pretty much all other types of bonuses.) for AC, stealth related skill checks and attack rolls to hit (the latter even if your not Dex based to hit, the former even if your using medium or heavy armor.), which can be amazing for certain types of characters. (Archers, rogues/scouts/ninja's who are getting most of there damage form precision sources, Mounted types who mostly get damage form PA and mounted charging (more on that below.) Factotums who use Iai-jutsu focus and knowledge devotion and things like that that don't care about size for damage, Bards who mostly benefit form Bardic Music and maybe PA/Knowledge devotion for damage, and of course, Casters, who just got a massive beef up to there defenses and ability to go first and not be targeted, and are relying on there spells, which mostly don't care about size, to be effective. Also, any character who's heavy on stealth.


Mounted combat also get's a massive benefit. After all, if you can still manage Power Attack in the build, you can trivially get mounted combat, spirited charge and either Ride By or Fly By attack as the DM requires. Then, get a really little mount, a raven or a house cat or the like, anything size catagory diminutive all the way up to medium works. Now snag a +1 Valorous Lance and two hand it. You'll be doing 8 damage per point of BAB given up on any round where you charge, likely with considerable speed and maneuverability, and the ability to get into position to set up a charge almost anywhere.


And as for not getting hit, it's now REALLY easy to get Total Cover and be un targetable or nearly untargetable. A collar of perpetual attendance, a Size Category Tiny Tower Shield, boom, you have a freaking wall in between you and your foes. Or hell, ride around in a party members backpack or pocket and just poke out once in awhile to shoot/cast.

[Urpriest]

I think Binding can do this, provided your only goal is ending up Fine.

[Metahuman1]

Ya know, one of these days, I really wanna build a Pimped out Size Fine Crusader (Maybe a dip into Warblade for Iron Heart Surge and Diamond Mind Concentration counters.) on a size Diminutive clock work/animated object mount with a high fly and swim speed and perfect maneuverability. Play him as a total Knight in Shining Armor with a lance who fits in the palm of the hand of the fair damsels he's aiding.

[Hiro Quester]

Ya know, one of these days, I really wanna build a Pimped out Size Fine Crusader (Maybe a dip into Warblade for Iron Heart Surge and Diamond Mind Concentration counters.) on a size Diminutive clock work/animated object mount with a high fly and swim speed and perfect maneuverability. Play him as a total Knight in Shining Armor with a lance who fits in the palm of the hand of the fair damsels he's aiding.

The trouble with fine size is that you have 0 reach. you don't threaten adjacent squares, and provoke an AOO to move into an opponent's square. And your strength is seriously depleted. Most attacks would so 1 point damage if successful. (My gnome started at 8 strength, s is now down to 1 strength.)


Edit: you were talking about finessed attacks. That's seriously worth considering.

But magical attacks and such? that you still have. With all the benefits to AC and benefits of high dex, hide, etc.

[Metahuman1]

I grant the Str ding is a problem. But, see, 0 reach isn't a big deal if you have enough movement speed on your mount and Ride/Fly by attack.

That said, feycraft +1 Valorous lance, 2 handed, with weapons finesse feat and power attack and the mounted line. Your dealing 12 + PA penalty x 8 + any Maneuver bonuses (Leading the charge stance, Battle Leaders charge, ext.) + enchantment bonuses per hit. More if you can snag pounce and full attack when you do the charges.


That's a LOT of damage output.

[Pippin]

I don't really need the fine size, I was just being curious. Being both God and fine is hilarious to me XD

[Story]

Ring of Reduction (Lords of Madness pg 130) permanently reduces your size by 1 category and isn't limited to humanoids like Reduce Person. It's great for high level spellcaster types.

[Metahuman1]

Huh, I wonder if Rod of Wonder followed by Ring of Reduction would work?

[Segev]

At the very least, a Wish should be able to do it.

One could potentially argue that a Bestow Curse or Bestow Greater Curse could do it, as well.

And if all of those fail, it should absolutely be within the power of a wizard to create a "Greater Reduce Person" or somesuch which allows you to adjust your size category downwards by a number of categories up to some function of your caster level.

[Metahuman1]

I just remembered. There's a Wu-Gen Spell that let's you go down to Tiny, Diminutive or Fine category size depending on your caster level. It's like a 6th, 7th or 8th level spell, but researching a wizard version and making a continuous item of it shouldn't be hard at all.

[Psyren]

Tibbit + the Compression psionic power can get down to Fine size at ML 7. My Tibbit Psyrogues have used this to avoid detection in the past, a +16 bonus to hide is difficult to defeat.

[Urpriest]

Tibbit + the Compression psionic power can get down to Fine size at ML 7. My Tibbit Psyrogues have used this to avoid detection in the past, a +16 bonus to hide is difficult to defeat.

Seems easier to start with Sparrow Hengeyokai if you're going that route.

[Metahuman1]

Tibbit + the Compression psionic power can get down to Fine size at ML 7. My Tibbit Psyrogues have used this to avoid detection in the past, a +16 bonus to hide is difficult to defeat.

Wasn't part of the objective to stay in mostly the same form you were in to start with?

[Psyren]

Wasn't part of the objective to stay in mostly the same form you were in to start with?

Hehe, missed that bit. Though if you're a psion, it's not like your physical form really matters.

[Metahuman1]

Mechanically, no, but some people just like the cosmetics a certain way, and some DM's insist on using that for leverage. "No, you can't be X with out looking like it says in this half a sentence in it's description and being treated different for it, deal with it!"

I've had this happen a number of times to me.

[Hiro Quester]

Huh, I wonder if Rod of Wonder followed by Ring of Reduction would work?

Multiple effects that reduce size don't stack, says the description of Reduce Person (WOTC again hiding rules in obscure places).

But, yeah, a wizard should be able to develop a spell similar to that wu jen spell. It's 8th level spell, BTW, but you can get smaller as your caster level increases; you have to be 19 level caster to be fine sized.

The Wu Jen spell is called "Minute Form", and it only lasts a minute (!).

[Psyren]

The Wu Jen spell is called "Minute Form", and it only lasts a minute (!).

Stealth homograph pun! (Much like Windy Canyon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html).)

[Metahuman1]

Multiple effects that reduce size don't stack, says the description of Reduce Person (WOTC again hiding rules in obscure places).

But, yeah, a wizard should be able to develop a spell similar to that wu jen spell. It's 8th level spell, BTW, but you can get smaller as your caster level increases; you have to be 19 level caster to be fine sized.

The Wu Jen spell is called "Minute Form", and it only lasts a minute (!).

Well, that's workable then. Get a scroll of it at CL 19 and a Party member with UMD, and craft a custom continuous Item of it. Full Round action to activate or 1 minute to activate or something, and restrict it to your race and class combo, maybe also your alignment. Boom, done and done for an affordable price if your a caster. Or just research a version of the spell, and use Red Wizard or something else to boost your CL prematurely for crafting.

As for Multiple Effects, darn. I guess that leaves with either something with Giant Blood having return to nature dropped on them a few times (one if using Rod of Wonder, Several if not.), or having a race that starts at small use the Rod of Wonder.

I wonder if there's a way a human can be counted as having Giant Blood for the purposes of being effected by Return to Nature?

[Pippin]

The Wu Jen spell is called "Minute Form", and it only lasts a minute (!).
If only that spell was level 7... It would have been miraclable. But anyways, I was told this spell doesn't interact well with shapechange, because you would have to cast it again everytime you change forms.

[Psyren]

UMD an item of it?

[Hiro Quester]

Can you use some kind of incantatrix shenanigans to persist the Minute Form spell for 24 hours? Can't an incantatrix make persistent a sell that's already in effect if you UMD a scroll or item of that spell?


If only that spell was level 7... It would have been miraclable. But anyways, I was told this spell doesn't interact well with shapechange, because you would have to cast it again everytime you change forms.

Shape change is based on alternate form, in which you get the size of the creature you shape change into. Multiple size-changing effects don't stack, if they head in the same direction (smaller or bigger).

But if you are small for longer than a minute, and then shape change into something big, if the spell were still active (suppressed by shape change) when you change back to normal the spell would still be in effect. I don't see why shape change would remove it altogether.