maximizing light weapon damage

[Theodred theOld]

Going to be starting a new game soon and I was thinking about playing a bard and using the snowflake wardance feat. Any thoughts on how to squeeze more damage out of a light slashing weapon? We're starting at level 3. Probably human but maybe strongheart halfling. Never played a bard so any help would be appreciated.

[Boci]

Not exactly great value, but combat expertise and deadly defense gives the +1d6 damage when you use the former feat for a +2 or larger bonus to AC.

What a bard really needs for damage is dragonfire inspiration, but inspire courage isn't bad either. If ToB is allowed you can dip 2 levels of warblade for Song of the White Raven or something, which allows you to start inspire courage as a swift action.

[dextercorvia]

Inspire Courage is great. I'm not convinced the extra feats for Dragonfire Inspiration are worth the damage increase at the expense of accuracy, but it is valid.

For your 1st level spell known take Inspirational Boost, for your 3rd level feat, grab Knowledge Devotion (and drop a few points into each of the creature knowledges). At 6th level swap Suggestion for the feat in ECS: Song of the Heart, and if you are good, take Words of Inspiration. Whatever you do, pick up a Badge of Valor on the cheap.

At level 3, Inspire Courage will give everyone +3 to hit and +3 to damage, while Knowledge Devotion will get you +2/+2 fairly consistently with modest investment. By level 6, your Inspire Courage will hit +7/+7. (I'm of the camp that you have to activate the Badge after Words of Creation, so that bonus isn't doubled.)

[A_S]

If you're considering Inspire Courage and/or Dragonfire Inspiration, make sure to get a ruling on how they interact. Some DM's allow them both to be in effect at the same time due to the rules for lingering effects of Bardic Music; others consider them mutually exclusive. Personally, my read is that they stack fully as long as DFI is activated first, but activating DFI will clear any active unmodified Inspire Courage effects.

If they're allowed to stack, then having them both up is definitely the way to go when it comes to doing damage as a Bard. If not, then it's like dextercorvia said, investing in DFI is a pretty questionable tradeoff against the accuracy gains from standard Inspire Courage.

[dextercorvia]

The danger with using both is twofold. First, you are really burning through your uses if you are doing it twice per combat. Extra Music will help with that, but seem like a wasted feat if you end up straight bard, and retraining isn't allowed.

Second, and probably more important for OP, if you spend the first two rounds of combat giving your allies all kinds of +s to hit and damage, then there is a good chance combat is over before you can even get in on it. There are ways around that -- focusing on Combat reflexes works, so you can attack when it isn't your turn, but that eats into your feats and weapon choices.

[A_S]

Part 1 is definitely true. Probably a good reason not to start double-singing until you have a few more uses of Bardic Music to burn through.

Part 2 I'm not so sure about. There's no need to spend two rounds singing; you can sing as a swift action (Song of the White Raven), or as a move action (Harmonize spell) to get it all into the first round. If you have time to prebuff, you can do both and still use your first standard action to cast or attack.

That said, these things might not be online yet at level 3, so it's probably another good reason not to invest in double inspiration until a higher level.

To the OP: If you expect the campaign to go past level 6 or so, consider DFI. If not, probably skip it.

[Taveena]

Personally, I recommend going double Kukri and grabbing Blood in the Water stance. Your hit chance with both Inspire Courage and Snowflake Wardance is like to be PRETTY HIGH, so you can actually expect those later iteratives to hit (and possibly confirm!) with some regularity.

[Theodred theOld]

This is all really good stuff. I think I'll go with dragonwrought kobold for the boost to cha and int. I plan on maxing out inspire courage and using snowflake wardance to wreck face, probably using a cutlass but I'm open to other suggestions there. I'll be purchasing a badge of valor and masterwork horn. 2 flaws (pathetic wisdom and ?). Any other thoughts on first level feats? Maybe a skill trick or two?

[Optimator]

The Swordsage dip is probably your best bet. Assassin's Stance, Blood In The Water, Island Of Blades can all help, plus the feat Shadow Blade can help if your Dex is good. A 3-level Swashbuckler will add Int to damage, as well as netting you a free Weapon Finesse. Later in your career damaging weapon enhancements like Collision, Wounding, and the elemental damage enhancements will rack up the damage when quantity is chosen over quantity.

[Theodred theOld]

I was considering swashbuckler 3 for the int to damage but rogue 1/ swordsage 1 for assassin stance may net me more at early levels. Depends on the enemies we face. Not sure if I'll have the feats to spare to get penetrating? strike.

[jiriku]

Don't neglect enchantments on the weapon itself and enhancement bonuses to your Strength as well. Collision will give you +5 damage for a +2 equivalent, and bane will give you +2 to hit and average +9 damage if you're playing in a campaign where one enemy type appears very frequently. Once you're at higher levels and the cheaper options for improving damage have all been used up, gauntlets of ogre power +2 give you an extra +1 damage for 4,000 gp, even if your'e depending on Weapon Finesse to use Dex to attack -- that's not an unreasonable investment once you reach the point where you consider 4 grand to be spare change. Spells from allied spellcasters like brambles and (to a lesser degree) greater mighty wallop can also improve your damage output.

[dextercorvia]

Part 2 I'm not so sure about. There's no need to spend two rounds singing; you can sing as a swift action (Song of the White Raven), or as a move action (Harmonize spell) to get it all into the first round. If you have time to prebuff, you can do both and still use your first standard action to cast or attack.

If you are initiating as a swift action then neither IC, nor DFI will benefit from Inspirational Boost. Only one of them will benefit from your Badge of Valor. When you take the loss from doubling via Words into account, that hurts. Harmonize comes with its own action economy issues, as it takes a Standard action to initiate, and has a short duration. It is persistable, for free (excepting prereqs) with a dip into Spelldancer, but those prereq feats will cut into your IC optimization as well. Unless the game is going to level 10-12 then you probably don't have the feat resources to do IC and DFI well, and persist Harmonize to get them both off in the same round consistently. I haven't tried to make a build that squeezes it all in by level 6 or 7, so I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

[A_S]

I don't disagree that feat and action-economy concerns are going to be a limiting factor on Inspire Courage effectiveness; I just still think double singing can be worthwhile.

Consider two Bards at level 6:

Bard 1 is a Bard 6 with Song of the Heart (via ACF) and Words of Creation.

Bard 2 is a Bard 4/Crusader 2 with Song of the White Raven, Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart (via ACF), and Words of Creation.

Both Bards carry a Badge of Valor and wear a Vest of Legends.

-----

Bard 1's singing routine goes like this:

Round 1: Swift action Inspirational Boost, standard action Inspire Courage for +8 (+3 base with Vest of Legends and Song of the Heart, +1 for Inspirational Boost, doubled), immediate action after turn to make it +9.

Round 2: Fight.

-----

Bard 2's goes like this:

Round 1: Swift action Dragonfire Inspiration for +6d6 damage (+3 base with Vest of Legends and Song of the Heart, doubled), standard action Inspire Courage for +6, immediate action after turn to make the latter +7.

Round 2: Fight.

-----

If either Bard has a round to prebuff, they can cast Harmonize right before they kick in the door to use a Move instead of a Standard action on one of their songs; if they do so, they get to use a Standard action in the first round to cast or attack.

If Bard 2 has a round to prebuff, they also have the option of a different singing routine:

Round 1: Swift action Inspirational Boost, move action Dragonfire Inspiration for +8d6 damage (+3 base with Vest of Legends and Song of the Heart, +1 for Inspirational Boost, doubled), standard action fight.

Round 2: Swift action Inspirational Boost, move action Inspire Courage for +8 (+3 base with Vest of Legends and Song of the Heart, +1 for Inspirational Boost, doubled), standard action fight, immediate action after turn to make Inspire Courage +9.

Round 3: Fight.

However, this delays the Inspire Courage bonuses for the rest of the party until round 2, and only allows a 5-foot step worth of movement during the first two rounds, so will only work situationally.

-----

So, at the end of the day, the differences are:
Bard 1 is providing +9 attack/damage, while Bard 2 is providing +7 attack/damage and +6d6 energy damage.
Bard 1 has spent 2 less feats on Inspire Courage optimization, allowing for more other goodies.
Bard 1 has better casting, while Bard 2 has maneuver access.
Bard 2 spends 2 Bardic Music uses per encounter, while Bard 1 spends only 1.
Bard 2 has access to the alternate "big bonuses but no movement allowed" buff sequence detailed above.

I'd honestly rather take Bard 2 there. I'm not saying it's super clear-cut or anything. Two feats is a big deal, using two uses of Bardic Music per encounter will still sting for a couple levels, and the -2 AB isn't nothing. But 6d6 damage for the whole party is a lot.

[Taveena]

War Chanter and Seeker of the Song let you maintain an extra bardic performance each. War Chanter also has full BAB. Sure, you'll be burning through your IC uses horrendously fast... but a Bard with Pyroclastic Dragon Heritage can unambiguously be TWFing with +16d6 fire damage, +16d6 sonic damage, +16 morale to hit and damage, and +cha to hit and damage.

[Darrin]

Does it have to be light? Oversided TWF lets you Power Attack with a one-handed weapon in each hand. However, how you get all those feats working on a Bard chassis is a bit of a head-scratcher.

[Theodred theOld]

Took some time to flesh this character out last night. Master Brae-Tak is 120 year old kobold axe-dancer. Deceptively small and jovial this guy is a total bruiser. Using inspire courage, inspirational boost, song of the heart, a masterwork horn, a badge of valor and snowflake wardance he's swinging +13 at 3rd level. He'll take 3 levels of swashbuckler and at level 6 when insightful strike comes online he'll take words of creation. That puts him +21 to hit and +16 to damage. Not bad for a 120 year old 2 foot tall kobold.

[Theodred theOld]

Does it have to be light? Oversided TWF lets you Power Attack with a one-handed weapon in each hand. However, how you get all those feats working on a Bard chassis is a bit of a head-scratcher.
Has to be a light slashing weapon to work with snowflake wardance. So far the best I've found is a handaxe.

[yellowrocket]

All i can think of is watching Yoda in episode 3 jumping and spinning

[A_S]

Has to be a light slashing weapon to work with snowflake wardance. So far the best I've found is a handaxe.
Snowflake Wardance works with any one-handed slashing weapon, not just light ones.

[Boci]

All i can think of is watching Yoda in episode 3 jumping and spinning

That only works against Star Wars fans, and I think its more of a SoD thing than a damage boost.

[martixy]

All i can think of is watching Yoda in episode 3 jumping and spinning

This happens to be precisely the character I'm playing right now. :D


+1 For Blood in the Water
Swashbuckler 3 is decent as a dip
Warblade 7 is great as your main, before PrC.

For a dex-based build, if you can spare the feats, you can do Combat Expertise + Deadly Defense + Combat Reflexes + Robilar's Gambit. Attack on your AND their turn.

[Theodred theOld]

Snowflake Wardance works with any one-handed slashing weapon, not just light ones.

Just reread and looks like it does. I guess I was thinking light weapon so I could make use of weapon finesse.

[dextercorvia]

I don't disagree that feat and action-economy concerns are going to be a limiting factor on Inspire Courage effectiveness; I just still think double singing can be worthwhile.

Consider two Bards at level 6:

Bard 1 is a Bard 6 with Song of the Heart (via ACF) and Words of Creation.

Bard 2 is a Bard 4/Crusader 2 with Song of the White Raven, Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart (via ACF), and Words of Creation.

Both Bards carry a Badge of Valor and wear a Vest of Legends.

<Snip>


You make some good points. However, Bard 2 can't take Song of the Heart via the ACF, since he hasn't gotten Suggestion yet to trade for it. That would put Bard 2 down 3 feats vs Bard 1, except SotWR and SotH have to come after level 2 and level 3 respectively, and Words of Creation has to go into your 6th level slot. So, Bard 2 loses either Song of the Heart or Song of the White Raven. Since the whole point was getting everything off in a single round, I'm guessing he gives up SotH.

That brings Bard 2 down to +5/+5 from IC and +4d6 from DFI compared to Bard 1's +9/+9. Again, Bard 1 has a two feat advantage to work with, and Bard 2 is burning through fewer total Bardic Music uses twice as fast as Bard 1.

I will say, based on your build, that it is probably worth it to focus on dual music usage around ECL 8-9, since by then Bard 2 can pick up SotH and another feat.