Is any creature without spells or class levels -really- higher than CR10?

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

Yes, I'm well aware of the challenge rating (CR) system for 3.x and Pathfinder. I'm aware that reverse gravity exists to destroy non-flyers come level 7 Wizard spells. Having participaed in debates over the actual CR of things instead of merely what was printed, I was wondering this:

Is a creature without notable class levels or spells/spell-like abilities/psionic powers/psi-like abilities really higher than a CR10? Even the 'mighty' Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires) can't fly. The Tarrasque can't fly. And so on.

I assume PCs are being smart about things, targeting enemy weaknesses, etc.

I chose CR 10 because that feels like the point where casters visibly eclipse non-casters if the casters so choose. It's also about midway through the non-epic level scale, at a point where level 5 or below spells (plus, often, lots of time) could probably beat it.

Consider things more worthy of a CR11+: Outsiders, dragons, casters, and maybe non-casters with some serious optimization, like a Warblade/Eternal Blade.

[Silva Stormrage]

Yes some monsters are still threatening without any spells. See this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-%28or-so%29 for examples.

I will give the greater storm elemental as an example for being able to do about 36d6 damage as an aoe at CR 10. Elder Storm Elementals are like that as well if you want something above CR 10

Mind Stealers (Online article) and Deepspawn (Monsters of Faerun I believe) are also ludicriously strong by CR but thats due to some insane minionmancy abilities.

Most need SLA or Spells but some SU abilities are outright insane on monsters.

[eggynack]

Even the 'mighty' Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires) can't fly.
Well, what if it could? Flight isn't a necessarily magical ability, and definitely isn't one necessarily rooted in spells or class levels, so if flight is the only thing keeping this creature from its current CR position, or one above ten at least, then that seems a rather trivial problem to solve within the confines of this problem. Maybe do it through a template to keep it within the rules, perhaps half-dragon as just an offhand example. We are, of course, necessarily ignoring the fact that the creature actually has fly as a spell-like ability in this assessment, but I don't see that as all that important. The important thing is that this new creature, minus its spell-likes and plus non-magical flight, would trivially justify a high CR, which means that there exists at least a hypothetical example. Of course, from there you'd want to produce real book legal examples, as Silva has done, but I tend to like to stay as close to the parameters of a claim as possible, and circle out from there.

[LudicSavant]

Is a creature without notable class levels or spells/spell-like abilities/psionic powers/psi-like abilities really higher than a CR10? Even the 'mighty' Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires) can't fly.

Well, what if it could?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires



Spell-Like Abilities

At will— greater magic weapon, fly, shield. Caster level 50th; save DC 17 + spell level. The DC is Charisma-based.


/One Hundred Facepalms

[bekeleven]

I present two monsters for you.

The first is a sparrow wearing spandex The Flash cosplay (http://netdna.walyou.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads//2011/08/the-Flash.gif). It has fly 1000 (Perfect), a +50 deflection bonus to AC, Freedom of Movement, and Magical Immunity. It is immune to critical hits, paralysis, energy damage, nonlethal damage, force damage, ability damage, disease, poison, energy drain, and all mind-affecting spells and abilities. It is otherwise identical to the Raven (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/raven.htm).

The second is the Dread Whirligig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whirligig#/media/File:Cardinal_Whirligig.jpg). It is a spinning whirlwind of death and destruction; all that's visible is blades. Any creature within 5 feet takes 5000D6 damage (reflex 180 half). It is otherwise identical to a Shrieker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fungus.htm#shrieker).

Answer me the CR of these two creatures and I will tell you why CR is an ineffective means of cataloging a creature's combat abilities. Sure, many creatures made in the game are relatively "Balanced" across their various areas, at least against a prototypical party. But plenty are not, which is why attempting to accurately CR most enemies, as opposed to some enemies, will be a fruitless endeavor.

[danzibr]

On the topic of flight, what if you're enclosed in a relatively small area?

[rweird]

This depends on the optimization level. Plenty of things over CR 10 without magic or class levels could be considered a fair fight for people over CR 10, just like a 20th level wizard could be solo'ed by a 10th or 11th level mundane.

Build matters way to much. Considering you can get Pun-Pun at level 1, you could say nothing is ever a challenge, but that deserves the qualifier "To everyone across optimization levels", but for a caster-less low-magic world, the Tarrasque could be a challenge to a level 200 fighter (assuming he doesn't take advantage of Power Attack, scaling damage at epic levels can be pretty difficult). Additionally, in game, PCs don't always have access to all the ways to exploit weaknesses, or know what the weaknesses are.

Optimization favors the one who knows what they are facing. It is highly unlikely that the PCs will account for anything, and various creatures can exploit weaknesses left in the PC's defenses if the DM knows what to look for. CR is a bad scale, but in certain ranges, can work, both for spellcasting monsters and more "generic" ones.

[Chronos]

I don't know the exact formulas to use, but the Flash sparrow is probably around CR 2. Against a single opponent with one attack per round, it'll do an average of 20 points of damage before dying. Against a party, or an opponent with more attacks, divide that by the number of attacks per round the party can make. Cast in that light, it's not too hard to evaluate.

[rweird]

I don't know the exact formulas to use, but the Flash sparrow is probably around CR 2. Against a single opponent with one attack per round, it'll do an average of 20 points of damage before dying. Against a party, or an opponent with more attacks, divide that by the number of attacks per round the party can make. Cast in that light, it's not too hard to evaluate.

If someone has Alchemist's fire or acid they could kill it quicker. Various other alchemical items probably would help too. It is a very unconventional encounter. If the one being attacked takes a move action to go at least 10 ft away means the raven would provoke an AoO, halving the time taken to kill it. If the guy has decent AC (~15 isn't unreasonable), it'd be halved again due to half the attacks missing.

The dread whirligig is something that belongs in Tomb of Horrors, it is no real threat in combat, however, if the DM doesn't make it clear what it'll do, it'll kill the players through no real fault of their own, like that sphere of annihilation in the mouth. It is more of a fiat than a reasonable encounter.

[Jormengand]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires

Even if it couldn't...


or 100 boulders +55 ranged (2d8+20/19-20)

What about that says "This thing needs to be able to fly"?

[Endarire]

Point taken on the Hecaton. Point also taken on optimization levels.

Thankee, all!

[Kazyan]

What about that says "This thing needs to be able to fly"?

Conventional optimization wisdom does not usually account for attack lines with the phrase "100 boulders".

[Snowbluff]

Conventional optimization wisdom does not usually account for attack lines with the phrase "100 boulders".

Why would it? Are the boulders magical? Do they get around Friendly Fire? If the answer is no to either of those, I'm not sure why we would bother accounting for them.

[ryu]

Why would it? Are the boulders magical? Do they get around Friendly Fire? If the answer is no to either of those, I'm not sure why we would bother accounting for them.

Okay it's official. You've earned my respect.

[animewatcha]

I am getting a bit of image of 'The creature launches 100 boulders at you' ... the druid who was waiting for this 'I cast this nice like wind spell that launches all those boulders right back at it'.

[Psyren]

PF has plenty of monsters above CR 10 without any spells or SLAs. I'd be interested to see where they stack up against a level 10 casting party. Things like Jotund Trolls, Adamantine Golems, Colossal Black Scorpions, a Viper Vine, various Linnorms etc.


Why would it? Are the boulders magical? Do they get around Friendly Fire? If the answer is no to either of those, I'm not sure why we would bother accounting for them.

Also, being incorporeal usually lets you shrug at boulders too. Heck, you could Gaseous Form next to an arrow slit/ crack in the wall/hole in the ground and 5-foot step into it at the end of your turn, blocking line of effect for all of them if the monster is not adjacent to you.


I am getting a bit of image of 'The creature launches 100 boulders at you' ... the druid who was waiting for this 'I cast this nice like wind spell that launches all those boulders right back at it'.

Most wind spells include a line about "large projectiles" or "siege weapons" though, which allow boulders to ignore them.You would probably need hurricane- or tornado-force winds to overcome that.

[Kazyan]

Sorry, I've been playing other games and forgot how binary this one was.

[Jormengand]

Sorry, I've been playing other games and forgot how binary this one was.

You are attacked by an angry hundred-armed monster tasked with stopping the parents of the gods from escaping from a prison made of the hardest materials that the gods themselves could think of. Do you have a spell that stops this attack?

Yes: You win.
No: You die.

*Insert Game of Thrones reference here*.

[Telok]

Gaseous form isn't a defense in this edition, it's a weak mobility spell. At that point the boulders are hitting your cover and may be able to destroy it. I would feel much safer dropping a Force Cage on myself and zapping from in there.

That's an interesting metric. Can a creature's offense be completely negated by a single spell at some fraction of the level at which you expect to encounter the creature?

Thought experiment: Take a straight classed wizard or cleric. Assume access to any reserve feat via Psychic Reformation. Assume a successful scry to know what to prepare. At what level can the caster reliably kill the critter using one or two spells to negate it's attacks.

[Psyren]

Gaseous form isn't a defense in this edition, it's a weak mobility spell. At that point the boulders are hitting your cover and may be able to destroy it. I would feel much safer dropping a Force Cage on myself and zapping from in there.

Right, it's not perfect by any means, but it's much lower level than becoming incorporeal or using forcecage.


Thought experiment: Take a straight classed wizard or cleric. Assume access to any reserve feat via Psychic Reformation. Assume a successful scry to know what to prepare. At what level can the caster reliably kill the critter using one or two spells to negate it's attacks.

Keep in mind that "negate its attacks" and "kill the creature" are two very different things, and often require very different spells.

[eggynack]

Most wind spells include a line about "large projectiles" or "siege weapons" though, which allow boulders to ignore them.You would probably need hurricane- or tornado-force winds to overcome that.
Yeah, you explicitly require tornado force winds for perfect deflection, with hurricane and windstorm applying penalties and anything lower doing nothing. Unfortunately, you need a CL of 15 to pull that off with control winds, but fortunately, that's theoretically reachable at level 10 with CL boosters. Alternatively, blizzard seems to hit ranged attacks universally, so that could help.

[Telonius]

CR is more of an art than a science. It's not helped by the fact that the people who would be most capable of figuring out how tough a monster actually is, are not a representative sample of the average party of adventurers. For just about anything above CR3, you could probably deduct at least 2 from the CR if you're sending it against a party of GitP posters (or most other internet boards, for that matter).

[bekeleven]

For just about anything above CR3, you could probably deduct at least 2 from the CR if you're sending it against a party of GitP posters (or most other internet boards, for that matter).

Things that are CR3, though, those are fine (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a).

[gooddragon1]

Things that are CR3, though, those are fine (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a).

Actually, they'd probably just use a warlock with spider climb. Touch attacks vs natural armor/out of reach. Of course, that depends on where they encounter it, but you might be surprised at some of the creativity.

[Afgncaap5]

I think this issue is why I've started designing two sets of stats for a monster, one to be the "real" stats and one to be the "encounter" stats. Lord Fulgurite is a mighty (if low-ranking) genie lord in my campaigns, but since he doesn't actually want to kills the players yet the stats for a common Janni warrior are more than capable. When that number of hitpoints vanish, he runs, with the party successful. (Arguably a true Janni would run much sooner so this is probably a more difficult "challenge", but... doesn't seem to make it more difficult in the long run.)

[jiriku]

Endarire, much depends on context. How difficult does the encounter prove to be? If a party defeats a monster without having to roll any dice (I've done it before), the challenge is probably not worth any xp because it was no challenge at all. If the PCs have the ability to checkmate the monster tomorrow but have to fight it today with spells currently prepared, it's still worth xp. Likewise, if combo xyz could trivialize the encounter, but the players never connect the dots to figure that out and instead slog through a difficult fight in which they experience real danger, they're certainly entitled to xp.

[Telok]

Keep in mind that "negate its attacks" and "kill the creature" are two very different things, and often require very different spells.
Lets see, Forcecage is two hours a level and seventh level so it will last twenty six hours. The epic level goober in the OP has a bit over a thousand hit points, seventy four AC, and DR plus regeneration and fast healing. It cannot harm someone in a Forcecage.
In a fight to the death the only question left is either doing more than ninety points of damage a round or more than seventy a round with a good aligned weapon. Since the wizard has fourteen thousand rounds to kill the thing as long as he can average one point of real injury every ten rounds it's dead. I don't have enough internet right now to work out the damage method but I am quite confident that you can work out something yourself.

So that thing is CR fifty seven and all a thirteenth level wizard has to do is win initative, Forcecage himself, and deal just enough damage to get past the regeneration and fast healing often enough.

So for a smartly played wizard who can prepare, eyeball it at CR fifteen? For a party with a fighter type or two and doesn't get a chance to prepare? Twenty five or thirty max. If you restricted yourself to the material available at the time when the critter was published it could be closer to that fifty seven but I'm still not seeing it anything past a CR thirty five for an unprepared party.

[Sith_Happens]

So that thing is CR fifty seven and all a thirteenth level wizard has to do is win initative, Forcecage himself, and deal just enough damage to get past the regeneration and fast healing often enough.

And the hecatoncheires, with its positive-valued mental scores, is going to stand there wailing away at the cage for hours? Rather than, say, sit out of your range and wait for you to run out of ruby dust?

[Psyren]

And the hecatoncheires, with its positive-valued mental scores, is going to stand there wailing away at the cage for hours? Rather than, say, sit out of your range and wait for you to run out of ruby dust?

Adding to this, Forcecage is a double-edged sword because it blocks line of effect, which most of the wizard's attacks will rely on.

[Kraken]

How much damage can orbs be doing at level 10? You just need to do enough damage and get past a non-negligible touch AC.

[Sith_Happens]

Adding to this, Forcecage is a double-edged sword because it blocks line of effect, which most of the wizard's attacks will rely on.

Not the barred cage version:


This version of the spell produces a 20-foot cube made of bands of force (similar to a wall of force spell) for bars. The bands are a half-inch wide, with half-inch gaps between them. Any creature capable of passing through such a small space can escape; others are confined. You can’t attack a creature in a barred cage with a weapon unless the weapon can fit between the gaps. Even against such weapons (including arrows and similar ranged attacks), a creature in the barred cage has cover. All spells and breath weapons can pass through the gaps in the bars.

[AvatarVecna]

If I were the DM and a player started pulling this kinda thing in my game, I would respond in kind. Assuming Mr. Wizard here puts himself in a barred Forcecage, the hecatoncheires would pick up 15 greatswords and slide them in through the bars (although it is a huge creature, it wields medium greatswords going by the base damage, and half an inch of space is more than sufficient to slide them in). Out of fairness, i would impose an attack penalty on te hecatoncheires for attacking in this manner, but even with a -20 modifier, they get 15 attacks at +53 for 2d6+20, with critson 17 and up. Survivable? Maybe...until he calls up his sibling to do the same thing.

Are there ways out of such a situation? Of course, because wizards. But my point is this: when a non-epic character decides to take on an epic creature in combat, the solution to turtle up inside a box and fire magic lasers should not just straight up work.

[NichG]

Optimization doesn't just cause variation on the player side, after all.

Lets take the sparrow case again. Now, what if the sparrow's goal is 'survive for 24 hours' and is played accordingly, and the victory condition for the PCs is 'kill the sparrow'? What CR is that?

[Psyren]

If I were the DM and a player started pulling this kinda thing in my game, I would respond in kind. Assuming Mr. Wizard here puts himself in a barred Forcecage, the hecatoncheires would pick up 15 greatswords and slide them in through the bars (although it is a huge creature, it wields medium greatswords going by the base damage, and half an inch of space is more than sufficient to slide them in). Out of fairness, i would impose an attack penalty on te hecatoncheires for attacking in this manner, but even with a -20 modifier, they get 15 attacks at +53 for 2d6+20, with critson 17 and up. Survivable? Maybe...until he calls up his sibling to do the same thing.

Are there ways out of such a situation? Of course, because wizards. But my point is this: when a non-epic character decides to take on an epic creature in combat, the solution to turtle up inside a box and fire magic lasers should not just straight up work.

Alternatively, just bury the box in boulders. 100 boulders should trigger the "cave-in" rules at some point. Either the wizard leaves or he suffocates.

[atemu1234]

You are attacked by an angry hundred-armed monster tasked with stopping the parents of the gods from escaping from a prison made of the hardest materials that the gods themselves could think of. Do you have a spell that stops this attack?

Yes: You win.
No: You die.

*Insert Game of Thrones reference here*.

"When you play the game of optimisation, you win or you die. There is no middle ground."

[Lightlawbliss]

Alternatively, just bury the box in boulders. 100 boulders should trigger the "cave-in" rules at some point. Either the wizard leaves or he suffocates.

Before he could reasonably suffocate the wizard by covering the cage in boulders, he would have to fill all the small gaps some how. I would probably go for a plan along the lines of "fill the cage with bits of broken rock" by throwing a rock on top of or next to the cage and shattering it with another boulder, and repeat. I'm sure 100 almost-vaporized shattered boulders will make a lot of dust and a lot of dust will make breathing... interesting.

[rweird]

Optimization doesn't just cause variation on the player side, after all.

Lets take the sparrow case again. Now, what if the sparrow's goal is 'survive for 24 hours' and is played accordingly, and the victory condition for the PCs is 'kill the sparrow'? What CR is that?

I don't know, it isn't a combat challenge (it'd spend its time flying away from the PCs), terrain would matter and a bunch of other stuff, although as it doesn't mean the PCs harm, whether it is worth XP at all is arguable.

[NichG]

I don't know, it isn't a combat challenge (it'd spend its time flying away from the PCs), terrain would matter and a bunch of other stuff, although as it doesn't mean the PCs harm, whether it is worth XP at all is arguable.

It's certainly a combat challenge, it's just one that involves enemy tactics other than running directly at the PCs and bashing ones-self to death on their blades. Does it help if I say 'if the PCs don't kill it within 24 hours, they die'?

The point is, the objective of a fight and the enemy's tactics can leverage different abilities differently. If you have a really awesome movement rate but then don't kite, then you're going to have a different CR than if you intelligently use that movement rate for kiting tactics. That sparrow, equipped with small rocks to drop on the PCs from above, would end up being a massively different threat. Have it retrain Alertness for Flyby Attack and it ends up being a massively different threat. Have an objective that obligates the PCs to come to it rather than vice versa and it ends up being a massively different threat.

[rweird]

It isn't a combat challenge if the PCs don't face a threat that hurts them, either due to lack of intent or ability (although if you give XP for diplomacy, the rules say it'd be worth the same). If it wants to survive, it probably could just fly away really quickly and hide, achieving its objective (however, as that is running away, the PCs would count as winning the combat encounter).

For them dying after 24 hours, no idea what CR that would be, the CR system doesn't measure fiat. Adding more fiat to already highly improbable and exaggerated abilities naturally makes it harder to judge. Its like asking what CR would a completely invincible [as in, cannot be hurt, damaged, or destroyed/killed in any way] creature which cannot act be? What CR would something that kills the PCs with no save as a free action with no range limit but dies if anyone thinks of it? These massive imbalances aren't intended for the CR system, and, in general, I'd feel don't make too fulfilling encounters (the whirligig would seem really cheap if it kills someone, and a waste of time if it is killed/bypassed without it doing anything), while the Flash-Sparrow dropping would likely be long and tedious (readying actions to make ranged attacks against Sparrow when it drops rocks, and 5-ft stepping as part of the action so the rocks miss, praying for 20s to hit) if the PCs understand how to fight it, and a frustratingly stupid TPK if they don't. I'd probably follow DMG guides for adjusting challenges based of terrain and so-on to either double or half the CR depending on how the PCs are equipped, the terrain, etc. I see it being a low-ish CR thing (under 11) due to it not having a very strong attack.

Equipment and terrain would matter a lot. If it is a fight in the complete emptiness of the Astral plane, it'd be a lot easier for the PCs than in a city, or place where line of effect/sight is easily blocked.

[Telok]

Is a Greater Stone Golem really a challenge for a competent 16th level character? I'm sure you can make a 16th level character that will be creamed by it, but a character played from low level to 16th generally indicates a baseline level of competence and a build that isn't filled with trap feats. A straight fighter would have problems but would any full casters or ToB characters be in danger of losing? Likewise is a Frost Giant Jarl, even with 8 levels of Blackguard, a challenge for a 17th level character that isn't built to fail?

The point of this thread isn't theorycrafting ways for one side to beat the other and claiming that you're right, it's asking if a 3.5 critter without real spellcasting or SLAs is actually a threat to a real party over 10th level or so. I'm beginning to think that the op might be right, short of really stupid players, weak characters, or engineering the fight/terrain to negate the PCs abilities stuff without magic might cap out at about 10th level.

Strip the spellcasting off a great wyrm red dragon, is it still a CR 26? How much should the CR drop when it's just an enormous flying lizard with a breath weapon and SR?

[ericgrau]

Why would it? Are the boulders magical? Do they get around Friendly Fire? If the answer is no to either of those, I'm not sure why we would bother accounting for them.
At will greater magic weapon says the boulders are magical. D&D doesn't have friendly fire.

Though this means it has spells.

[eggynack]

At will greater magic weapon says the boulders are magical. D&D doesn't have friendly fire.
Yes, D&D does have friendly fire, as it's a spell in exemplars of evil that deflects ranged attacks. I'm not entirely sure what the magical thing was specifically referring to, because D&D has lotsa stuff, but magicing up 100 boulders individually sounds pretty onerous (pretty sure that mass version doesn't apply to boulders), and it looks like weather based defenses like control winds and blizzard still work fine.

[ericgrau]

Ah friendly fire is a spell I should have figured that out. Duh. Why would mundane friendly fire even be relevant on most monsters?

The main way to deal with friendly fire and control winds is that they aren't on the spell lists of 96+% of builds I've seen. It's the "you can't prepare for everything" problem. An epic druid might reasonably have control winds and it wouldn't be on any spell list I've seen because it is a popular spell and nobody posts their druid spell lists. But he would have to be hundreds of feet away from fellow party members at all times which is extremely unlikely. Or give it a large eye to enclose fellow PCs which means the solution for the Hecatoncheires is to laugh at the save and walk briskly forward into the eye with his 100 foot speed. And it would have to be quite a large eye because a tightly clustered party formation is asking to be targeted by an A.O.E. against another surprise foe. So at best he trades rounds with the Hecatoncheires. At worst the room is too small to fit both the eye and the winds.

[GilesTheCleric]

Yesterday I did a bit of research on wind spells, and I don't think there are any that can actually affect the heca. There's a few that would give it a save vs. being stopped, but the DC is fixed at 20 or thirty (afb). It's too large for any but high-level wind effects to stop it. However, the wind effects could stop the boulders if they're smaller than gargantuan.

[eggynack]

The main way to deal with friendly fire and control winds is that they aren't on the spell lists of 96+% of builds I've seen. It's the "you can't prepare for everything" problem. An epic druid might reasonably have control winds and it wouldn't be on any spell list I've seen because it is a popular spell and nobody posts their druid spell lists. But he would have to be hundreds of feet away from fellow party members at all times which is extremely unlikely. Or give it a large eye to enclose fellow PCs which means the solution for the Hecatoncheires is to laugh at the save and walk briskly forward into the eye with his 100 foot speed. And it would have to be quite a large eye because a tightly clustered party formation is asking to be targeted by an A.O.E. against another surprise foe. So at best he trades rounds with the Hecatoncheires. At worst the room is too small to fit both the eye and the winds.
That seems... odd to me. Control winds is sweet, after all. You're simultaneously defending against a big swath of attack possibilities, all ranged attacks and approach based melee attacks alike, and controlling the battlefield in a potentially really effective way. If there's a better 5th level druid spell out there, I'm just not really aware of it. You don't need to be dealing with a pile of smaller enemies either, as the various effects are quite strong. The real issue, and the thing which cuts down on the potential druids that could run this plan, is whether this particular druid is running the CL boosters necessary to hit tornado speeds. It's a good strategy, but it's definitely not a ubiquitous one.

As for the eye walking, that can be reasonably solved by taking to the air. Sort of, anyway. The creature can fly, after all, though the source of this discussion was vaguely based on the premise that it can not do so, with the boulders as the sole method of engaging our character. If that is not the case, then a simple ranged defense is obviously insufficient to deal with the monster, which indicates that the plan would not work in the wider universe of the problem.


Yesterday I did a bit of research on wind spells, and I don't think there are any that can actually affect the heca. There's a few that would give it a save vs. being stopped, but the DC is fixed at 20 or thirty (afb). It's too large for any but high-level wind effects to stop it. However, the wind effects could stop the boulders if they're smaller than gargantuan.
I don't really see why you think that. The impact of wind on boulders is listed right here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#winds), and it indicates that you're getting a straight stopping effect when you hit tornado speeds, which we presumably are. The save DC's seem to relate to the pushing, rather than the ranged weapon stopping, as the other way of considering it just doesn't make much sense. After all, a fortitude save can negate the effect of being in the windy area, but the arrows are impacted whether you are in the windy area or not, as long as you're shooting into it. Blizzard, as I've previously noted, just kinda works as well.

[Tvtyrant]

The Ethereal Weapon property from Dragonmech is good for stuff like this. I use that in almost every campaign because it ignores DR, hardness, and arguably barriers.

[jiriku]

Is a Greater Stone Golem really a challenge for a competent 16th level character? I'm sure you can make a 16th level character that will be creamed by it, but a character played from low level to 16th generally indicates a baseline level of competence and a build that isn't filled with trap feats. A straight fighter would have problems but would any full casters or ToB characters be in danger of losing? Likewise is a Frost Giant Jarl, even with 8 levels of Blackguard, a challenge for a 17th level character that isn't built to fail?

The point of this thread isn't theorycrafting ways for one side to beat the other and claiming that you're right, it's asking if a 3.5 critter without real spellcasting or SLAs is actually a threat to a real party over 10th level or so. I'm beginning to think that the op might be right, short of really stupid players, weak characters, or engineering the fight/terrain to negate the PCs abilities stuff without magic might cap out at about 10th level.

Strip the spellcasting off a great wyrm red dragon, is it still a CR 26? How much should the CR drop when it's just an enormous flying lizard with a breath weapon and SR?

Side note: as a mixed-casting prc, I'd call the 8 levels of blackguard nonassociated and place the frost giant jarl at CR 13, rather than 17. But of course, that was just an arbitrary example and I see what you mean with your overall point.

I can say from 25 years of DMing experience that, rubber to the road, high-CR non-casting monsters are a real threat in real games against real players running real characters. Members of the optimization community can very easily fall into the trap of thinking that their play style is "normal". We are not normal. 100% of the people I play d&d with played for years or decades without ever appreciably climbing the optimization curve until they joined my group and were exposed to the play style I learned from internet optimization communities. Many of them are now very skilled players, but for most of them char-op wasn't even on their radar, ever, at all, before they met me. Normal players will see a greater stone golem, charge in with all guns blazing, and take their lumps until it falls. Or, if they're clever, they'll use tactics and environment to defeat it somehow, but they triumph through cleverness and lateral thinking, not through character optimization.

[ericgrau]

That seems... odd to me. Control winds is sweet, after all. You're simultaneously defending against a big swath of attack possibilities, all ranged attacks and approach based melee attacks alike, and controlling the battlefield in a potentially really effective way. If there's a better 5th level druid spell out there, I'm just not really aware of it. You don't need to be dealing with a pile of smaller enemies either, as the various effects are quite strong. The real issue, and the thing which cuts down on the potential druids that could run this plan, is whether this particular druid is running the CL boosters necessary to hit tornado speeds. It's a good strategy, but it's definitely not a ubiquitous one.
Control winds is popular for druids if you happen to have a party druid. Friendly fire isn't as popular. The main issue with the control winds is dealing with your party, terrain and dungeon construction. Mr. hundred hands easily walks to the large ally enclosing center with his 100 foot speed and high fort save, then throws boulders anyway.

[eggynack]

Control winds is popular for druids if you happen to have a party druid. Friendly fire isn't as popular. The main issue with the control winds is dealing with your party, terrain and dungeon construction. Mr. hundred hands easily walks to the large ally enclosing center with his 100 foot speed and high fort save, then throws boulders anyway.
Depends some on party construction, as a flying party deals with the issue well enough. I dunno that I'd necessarily count it as a mark against that a strategy works better when it's just one level 10 druid rather than a group of level 10 folk, especially because we can presumably optimize the other folk if they're around. Friendly fire is admittedly more of a high level thing, albeit a very good one, due to the whole passive and action efficient defense nature of the spell. Pretty good idea to have one around after a certain point. Maybe not 10, but maybe 11 or 13 or so. Like, you want a level where you start wanting to pull your active spells from higher level slots, and that makes sense when your highest level slots are two or three spell levels ahead of the slots you're dealing with, depending on the spell. Friendly fire is good enough that it might be worth it when you top out at 6ths.

[Endarire]

jiriku: What constitutes 'normal' compared to the Internet's playstyle? It seems like The Internet has already won D&D due to the sheer research its contributors have put into optimizing the game.