How much CR is wealth worth? A survey

[ace rooster]

Assuming we ignore the tier 1s, how much does a character rely on their equipment? To quantify this I am going to prepose a quick test. If you have ECL and WBL adding up to 20, what build would you go with? ie, you could build a 14th level character with the WBL of a level 6, or a level 7 character with the WBL of a level 13 for example. These builds are not going to actually do anything, so don't spend much time on them, but I am curious where peoples' first instinct is.

I suppose we could split all the tiers up and do the same experiment with each, but I will leave the question open to start with.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Hm, probably some UMD-focused build with as much WBL as possible. One level of artificer* would be nice, for the +2 bonus on scroll activations. With level 19 WBL, you can easily afford boosting items to get the +36 UMD bonus you need to cast CL 17 9th-level spells, even if you roll a 1. 14 charisma for +2, a +2 masterwork tool, +2 from artificer, +10 competence, +10 insight, +10 luck bonus from items. Get Quick Draw to grab new scrolls quickly, and cast like a wizard while you have the gold - you should level up pretty quickly, taking on CR 20 challenges.

The same is true for any level 20 non-caster/initiator/manifester with level 20 WBL. A 20th level fighter, knight or monk is powerful when emulating a wizard with cross-class UMD ranks. Actually hitting things with swords or unarmed strikes is, most of the time, not as powerful or versatile, and only really good for HP damage.

You could say that level x WBL can take you up to level x - 3 in a tier 1 class, with x > 10 or something. At lower levels, certainly up to 5 or so, it's easier to go VoP adamantine plated warforged crusader and forget about items entirely.


*Sure, artificer is t1, but rogues, warlocks etc. can do the same.

[Forrestfire]

Level 1 commoner, level 19 WBL. Make The Cube. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8187767&postcount=7)

[Ruethgar]

I would tend to agree that in the default magic mart of D&D that wbl is more important than level with the right items. I might not go 1:19 but I don't think I would go higher than 6:14 for any particular build.

[Madbranch]

Druid level 20. Vow of Poverty. :)

[ryu]

Druid level 20. Vow of Poverty. :)

That says more about druids than it does about wealth. Also I exist again.

[Tvtyrant]

That says more about druids than it does about wealth. Also I exist again.

Yeah, there is a weird disconnect in the game. Everything below tier 2 is weaker than items mimicking higher tiers, everything tier 2 and up can do those things natively and so don't need items. The divide between tier 2 and tier 3 seems wider than the rest of the game put together.

[Fizban]

For starters, if this is for building encounter remember that NPCs get far less WBL than characters. If an NPC's CR is equal to their level, a PC's should be higher from the extra gear. As for how much, it depends entirely on the character and what they're buying so it will always be a case-by-case basis. A full caster can get by completely on no-save spells so they don't even need stat boosters, a good grapple build will be impossible for a non-grappler to beat even without items, and the right archer build could potentially destroy a PC in a single round without any bonuses. Because NPC wealth is so much lower, I would expect NPCs with wealth based on a lower level to be quite ineffectual if they're dependent upon their gear.

As for your question of level+wealth rank=20, it's not even a question. The only thing that compares to a 20th level caster is the WBL of a 20th level character, and a 1st level character with 19th WBL still only has 1 HD. Cleric, Druid, or Sorc 20, accept no substitutes (Psion and Erudite also qualify but five classes just doesn't have the same impact). This is because in all cases, the number of levels sacrificed for wealth are never worth it. Consider: would you accept LA+3 just so you could afford a suit of full plate and a masterwork sword? Instead you could be a Half Dragon with +4 AC/+8 str and more, then wear studded leather from your level 1 gear and hit people with a stick if you don't want to get your claws dirty-and that's not even a great template. Half-Celestial/Fiend/Farspawn give more stats and SLAs than you could buy with 10 levels worth of cash. LA is usually a bad idea even for a good template and doing it for cash that can't even buy that much would be madness.

If restricted to a lower tier class, it depends most heavily on how much you can fudge the extra limit. A PsyWar can get scaling weapons and armor and buff himself, but does so via significant manifesting. Warlocks barely have any equipment that applies to them but are obviously OP compared to a no money Fighter. A martial build that functions with 7 or so levels can go Kensai, but will have almost no defenses (though ther'es a Fighter ACF in Dragon Magic that gives you a sort of armor). Trying to cheese the definition of "WBL" we could claim that goods sacrificed to Ancestral Relic don't count (similar to how the donations for Vow of Poverty apparently didn't matter) and run that at full strength. An archer build (favored enemy+swift hunter for skirmish+greater manyshot) can deal some serious damage if the lack of attack bonuses doesn't hurt it too much and the enemies are favored. Any build can try to pad out it's defenses and replace item abilities with Incarnum via race+dips+feats, but only Totemist has a chance of being relevant at high levels by itself.

If you do Pathfinder, there's the Aegis (like a Soulknife except with a Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor that can sprout weapons and be Iron Man), and apparently they've done an Incarnum book which I'm sure has better support than WotC gave the system. And the Summoner who's Eidolon probably doesn't need any gear. But really just make a list of all the classes in order of how well they do without gear and compare them at level 20, there's your full answer.

[DeAnno]

I think a more constructive way to weight this question is to instead ask how a Commoner with full WBL relates to other classes with no WBL. Is the full WBL Commoner better than the starting wealth only Rogue? Is he better than the starting wealth only Warlock? I almost want to say you want to "tier" WBL, but since the tiers as present include WBL as an assumption that isn't quite right.

[Brova]

The best item for this (also for everything) is a Candle of Invocation. I'm going to assume you don't use the gate function to win everything forever, because that's been done to death. What you do is use the "prepare spells as if you were to levels higher" function combined with the "emulate class feature" ability of Abuse Magic Device to prepare spells as a 20th level Cleric. To get 20th level Cleric casting out of a Candle, you need a 38 on your UMD check. Assuming you're a Rogue or Warlock with "always take 10", you need a +28. That can be done with custom items of skill boosting, skill buffs from wands and scrolls, or just grabbing Skill Focus and a +2 Cha modifier at level 20. Congratulations, you are now a Cleric. A similar trick can be done with a Monk's Belt for some minor buffs, or Druid's Vestments for wild shape.