PDA

View Full Version : Baator



JellyPooga
2007-04-15, 01:59 PM
Baator is the one with infinite layers right?

No-one's really explored them all and all the really powerful chappies are somewhere near the top too, correct?

So layer, for example, 1,456,789 is going to have, oh, I dunno, a couple of petitioners and some lesser demons, who are most likely bored out of their skulls.

So, Mr.Adventurer could quite happily go to layer 1,456,789 and chop up the current inhabitants and set up shop there. If he's a Wizardly type, there's not really any reason why he couldn't make the place fairly nice to live in right? Not to mention the resources available (I imagine some of those hellish ores could sell for a pretty penny on Prime worlds)

'Cos none of the really powerful chappies are interested in what happens the further down you go, there's very little chance of them stumbling into your Planar Abode on a rampage of death. Even if they were chasing you for some reason, the phrase "needle-in-a-haystack" comes to mind (uness they can get a fix on you somehow).

In short, why bother going to all the trouble of making your own demi-plane (with all the accesss problems that are entailed), when there's already a place available in hell that already has portals and such? (kind of like the difference between building your own house and looking at the listings at the estate agents)

The_Snark
2007-04-15, 02:05 PM
The Abyss is the one with infinite layers; Baator is the Nine Hells. Trying to set up shop at the bottom of Baator would be... unwise for beings of less than deity status.

The better-known stuff is near the top, but I don't think that necessarily means that the lower layers are much less powerful. Just less well known. You might find a few lesser demons on layer 1,456,789, but it's more likely that you'd find, say, titanic malevolent beasts swimming through seas of lava, or a layer that's been fought over by a pair of obsessed demon princes for so long that they've been forgotten by anything outside that layer. Nothing's certain in the Abyss, but almost all levels are going to be inhospitable and hazardous.

Demons are infinite, so it's not like they have to be spread out among the layers.

Talya
2007-04-15, 02:10 PM
The abyss is fun!

JellyPooga
2007-04-15, 02:13 PM
The better-known stuff is near the top, but I don't think that necessarily means that the lower layers are much less powerful. Just less well known. You might find a few lesser demons on layer 1,456,789, but it's more likely that you'd find, say, titanic malevolent beasts swimming through seas of lava, or a layer that's been fought over by a pair of obsessed demon princes for so long that they've been forgotten by anything outside that layer. Nothing's certain in the Abyss, but almost all levels are going to be inhospitable and hazardous.



That's rather the point. You find a layer that doesn't have Demon Princes warring over it or giant beasts of death swimming through pools of lava. Given that there are infinite layers, there's bound to be at least one that's comparitively nice

JadedDM
2007-04-15, 02:14 PM
Originally, the Abyss only had 666 layers (this was back in 1E).

Anyway, why would you really want to set up shop in hell? It's...well, it's hell.

Darkxarth
2007-04-15, 02:17 PM
That's rather the point. You find a layer that doesn't have Demon Princes warring over it or giant beasts of death swimming through pools of lava. Given that there are infinite layers, there's bound to be at least one that's comparitively nice

There are also an infinite number of demons, so it's kind of a mathematical conundrum.

The_Snark
2007-04-15, 02:20 PM
That's rather the point. You find a layer that doesn't have Demon Princes warring over it or giant beasts of death swimming through pools of lava. Given that there are infinite layers, there's bound to be at least one.

Well, that's the question, I guess. I don't think there necessarily is, since the whole point of the Abyss is that it has an infinite amount of demons and other nasty things. I doubt there's any layer that is easily taken over, though there are probably layers that high-level characters could have a shot at.

If I were DMing, I'd have the layers become more unstable once the players got really far down; they'd be more likely to form out of sheer chaos as another dissolves unexpectedly. None of them would be hospitable, either, since the death beasts would form spontaneously on the new layers. And having layers made out of unstable chaos, sort of like a more hostile Limbo, means that you don't have to keep making up layers as a DM. :smallwink:

JellyPooga
2007-04-15, 02:22 PM
Anyway, why would you really want to set up shop in hell? It's...well, it's hell.

Well...for a start there's the aforementioned mining opportunities.

There's also the possibility of hellish plantlife - I'm sure some of the stuff that grows in the Abyss would make pretty potent poisons.

It's more or less a plane to call your own, so you don't have any laws to worry about.

If you monitor the portals in to the place, you can keep all the riff-raff out.

O.k. so it might be a bit uncomfortable for a while, but with some well placed magic, I'm fairly sure it could become a pleasant place to live.

Oh, it's in Hell. That's a benefit all by itself - who wants to visit Hell? All that privacy has got to be good for doing that bit of research you've been trying to do. Or simply as a place to get away from all those pesky townsfolk that keep bugging you to 'clear out the orcs in the caves' or 'make a potion to clear up this disease'.

Kyace
2007-04-15, 02:55 PM
Ask your friendly cleric with a sense of humor to cast Hallow over all of the portals. If you have your own way in and out, have the cleric add Dimensional Anchor to the hollow. Hallow works in the Abyss, right?

Matthew
2007-04-15, 03:31 PM
The layer itself will resist being turned to this use. Setting up shop in Hell is a bad idea and any Wizard will end up mad or dead or both. Almost certainly the main players in the Blood War will be on the look out for any advantage and a high level Wizard is just such a resource.

JellyPooga
2007-04-15, 03:58 PM
The layer itself will resist being turned to this use.

Why? How? O.k. so its not a nice place to be (by virtue of being Hell) and the very nature of the place is Evil (by virtue of having an Evil Alignment trait), but that doesn't stop someone coming along, killing all the inhabitants and milking the landscape for profit and making small areas nice to live in...Mountains generally don't complain about people mining for gold now do they?


Setting up shop in Hell is a bad idea and any Wizard will end up mad or dead or both.

Again, why? Not all the layers of the Abyss are madness inducing. I imagine that most of them are merely a bit warmer than is comfortable with some gnarly inhabitants/plant-life/features. Nothing out of the ordinary for a Planeswalker.


Almost certainly the main players in the Blood War will be on the look out for any advantage and a high level Wizard is just such a resource.

True. However, being a Wizard in this hypothetical situation, is not strictly neccesary and the items used to produce the magical effects that make it a comfy place may well be consumed by the casting. Also, the relative obscurity of your position in the Abyss will make you hard to locate, even if the 'main players' find out that you're in Hell in the first place.

The trick to this enterprise is to keep a low profile...
We're not trying to dominate a layer of the abyss, just live there safely.
We're not trying to usurp anyones power-base, simply make a living/life.

By choosing an obscure layer, that no-one else is interested in, no-ones going to notice you being there, except the current inhabitants. If those inhabitants are few and unimportant, who's going to miss them? You don't even neccesarily need to kill them.

As long as you don't start kicking up huge dust-clouds (metaphorically), you should have a fairly secure place to live/base of operations.

Saph
2007-04-15, 04:33 PM
Baator is the one with infinite layers right?

No-one's really explored them all and all the really powerful chappies are somewhere near the top too, correct?

So layer, for example, 1,456,789 is going to have, oh, I dunno, a couple of petitioners and some lesser demons, who are most likely bored out of their skulls.

So, Mr.Adventurer could quite happily go to layer 1,456,789 and chop up the current inhabitants and set up shop there.

You're trying to use Material-Plane-based logic and rationality to analyse a plane that's the embodiment of unpredictable, destructive evil. It does sound like an entertaining adventure hook, but more in the sense of "see what happens to this idiot wizard, and wait 'til you get his explanation of what he was trying to do!"

Anyway, there are an infinite number of demons, which means they fill the Abyss to an infinite density, so there isn't a square inch that isn't filled with demons. Then again, the Abyss is infinite, so maybe there are areas with no demons. Or maybe they just look like they have no demons. Or they have as many demons as the demons want there to be. Who knows? Your character doesn't, and that's the point. You could try it, but any DM worth his salt will make your character's life hell . . . literally.

- Saph

Matthew
2007-04-15, 04:43 PM
Why? How? O.k. so its not a nice place to be (by virtue of being Hell) and the very nature of the place is Evil (by virtue of having an Evil Alignment trait), but that doesn't stop someone coming along, killing all the inhabitants and milking the landscape for profit and making small areas nice to live in...Mountains generally don't complain about people mining for gold now do they?
Well, it's been a while since I was playing Planescape, but the layers of Hell mirror its inhabitants, particularly the master of the domain. If you manage to remove these, then you have to deal with the neighbours (i.e. the Planes that are near this one). They are guarenteed to take an interest in a changing power dynamic and it won't be a good result. D&D Hell is not like the Prime, it changes to suit the inhabitants and seemingly natural phenomona, such as earthquakes, poisonous gas and other events are common. You cannot pacify this sort of place. It is not 'a bit uncomfortable', it's a hideous mind bending domain of evil.

Again, why? Not all the layers of the Abyss are madness inducing. I imagine that most of them are merely a bit warmer than is comfortable with some gnarly inhabitants/plant-life/features. Nothing out of the ordinary for a Planeswalker.
Not directly, but if you think spending considerable time in hell is good for your psychological health, then you'd be wrong. Even if neighbouring evil does not directly invade the power vacumn, you can be sure that you will be subverted by less conspicuous means.

True. However, being a Wizard in this hypothetical situation, is not strictly neccesary and the items used to produce the magical effects that make it a comfy place may well be consumed by the casting. Also, the relative obscurity of your position in the Abyss will make you hard to locate, even if the 'main players' find out that you're in Hell in the first place.
Any high level character with magic gadgets out the whazoo is meat for the war. In fact, anybody is, high level characters are just moreso.

The trick to this enterprise is to keep a low profile...
We're not trying to dominate a layer of the abyss, just live there safely.
We're not trying to usurp anyones power-base, simply make a living/life.
That would be the trick, but I doubt it is possible. As soon as you create a power vacum, you set things in motion.

By choosing an obscure layer, that no-one else is interested in, no-ones going to notice you being there, except the current inhabitants. If those inhabitants are few and unimportant, who's going to miss them? You don't even neccesarily need to kill them.

As long as you don't start kicking up huge dust-clouds (metaphorically), you should have a fairly secure place to live/base of operations.
Heh, what you are looking for is an isolated layer. You will not find such a place, to the best of my knowledge, but if you do, this is vaguely possible. It rather depends on the specifics of the Plane. Huge risks, I suspect. News can travel at any speed in the quasi metaphysical reality of D&D Hell and you can be sure that the slightest rumour of weakness or change will bring the curious in search of an edge and the whole thing will snowball.

The_Snark
2007-04-15, 04:54 PM
Exactly. Every demon lord and prince is always on the lookout for an opportunity to grab some more territory. Keep in mind that a lot of demons can plane shift with ease, meaning they can move between layers. There's a lot of traffic; essentially, there are no isolated layers.

That's also the reason you won't find a layer that's easy to conquer. If it were easy to take over, somebody would have done it already. Opportunities like that don't last long in the Abyss.


Again, why? Not all the layers of the Abyss are madness inducing. I imagine that most of them are merely a bit warmer than is comfortable with some gnarly inhabitants/plant-life/features. Nothing out of the ordinary for a Planeswalker.

Well... yeah. They are. The whole plane is strongly chaos- and evil-aligned. It interferes with your thought processes if you aren't already chaotic evil.

It is possible to take over a level of the Abyss, if somehow you stumble across one that's less contested/dangerous, but by the time you're done protecting it from divination, fending off the demonic neighbors, and taking other measures to remain beneath the notice of the Abyss's more powerful inhabitants... then you've expended at least as much energy as you might have producing your own personal demiplane. At least on the demiplane you'd get to choose what's there and what isn't.

JadedDM
2007-04-15, 04:57 PM
I suppose, in theory, you could try making a deal with the denizens of Baator (they would be better than the Abyss, because of their Lawful alignment) that would allow you to live there in peace. Some kind of contract, maybe. I would very, VERY carefully read the fine print on that, though.

But I agree with Matthew. The Lower Planes are not just like our world, but full of demons. They are pure Evil. It's in the air, the ground, and the water. It's like living in a fallout zone. Sooner or later, it would prove bad for your health, even if you were all ready evil in alignment.

Renegade Paladin
2007-04-15, 05:00 PM
Why? How?
The Abyss itself is sentient and malevolent, and the demons are merely an extension of the primordial plane's will, that's why and how.

Talya
2007-04-15, 05:10 PM
Your best bet is to make yourself useful to a powerful demon lord and set up shop with his approval. (Or her approval. I suggest Malcanthet, just for the fringe benefits.)

Of course, the abyss is the ultimate embodiment of Chaos...things can change VERY quickly.

Jimp
2007-04-15, 05:11 PM
So if you did choose a lesser known layer of hell for your extraplanar home, why did you choose it? Just because it's lesser known?
Maybe it's lesser known because anyone exploring it never came back. I know that's what would happen if my PCs came up with that plan.

Renegade Paladin
2007-04-15, 05:20 PM
As for pleasant layers, Shendilavri is about as pleasant as they come, and it'll still kill you until you die. You just won't see it coming until it's far too late.

Latronis
2007-04-15, 06:09 PM
if all the daemon badasses were in the uppermost layers then wouldn't make sense that the deepest are too dangerous for even the biggest and baddest of the daemon lords?

Talya
2007-04-15, 06:20 PM
Technically, no matter which layer of the abyss you go to, it's relatively close to the top. That's because there's an infinite number of layers below it...

the_tick_rules
2007-04-15, 06:27 PM
well the abyss has 666 known layers and only a finite portion is known of each layer. the rest are so remote and inacessible they are unmapped at all. there is one layer in the abyss that has a contingent of stranded eladrins there, as hospitable as you'll find in the abyss.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-04-15, 06:45 PM
Also, since there are infinite layers and each layer is itself infinite, there's nothing saying that you can't have infinite demons on a finite number of layers.

Vyker
2007-04-15, 06:59 PM
If your objective truly is to have a quiet place where no one will bother you while you do research, here's a list of alternatives:

First off, the really obvious ones:
- Both Arcadia and Celestia are places where law-abiding Good critters hang their hats. Almost by definition, anyone who wants to do Bad Things to you is either attacked on sight by locals, barred from entry entirely, or so powerful that they could find you wherever you went anyway. Oh, and those locals themselves will (mostly) be willing to abide by the "No Trespassing" sign you hang on your gate.
- Elysium is about the nicest place in the multiverse. If you're not against having smiling neighbors (who really mean it!), but you want to steer clear of the crusader-types who call Arcadia and Celestia home, Elysium might be the place for you. Watch out for that nasty tendency to never want to leave, though!
- Your own demiplane (by making one, borrowing one from a friend, or "borrowing" one from an ex-rival). You ruled it out in the opening post, but in many ways it really is easier than trying to lease a patch of plane from someone else, no matter how nice they are.

A few less-than-obvious but still suitable options:
- The Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanicus has a few places of note, including the city of Delon-Etson Oti. You'll have formians overrunning the neighborhood in a few hundred years or millennia (your mileage may vary), but in the meantime, it's a place of perfect order and tranquility. And since it has a high proportion of seers, oracles, and whatnots born there, there's enough tourist flow to keep abreast of information from Elsewhere, or to come and go without being too out of place.
- The Astral Plane, home to giant floating eternally hungering maws and plenty of space to be where those giant floating eternally hungering maws aren't. Also, everywhere is a quick jaunt away!
- The Outlands. Go to Sigil!
- The Realm of Dreams, if it exists in your cosmology. Seriously, who would look there?
- The Material Plane. Sure, it's boring and just about anyone can reach it (even 1st level commoners can simply walk out their front door!), but there's a lot of advantages. First, you're already there. Oh, also, your building materials are also already there. And craftsmen. In fact, most everything you need is already there. Second, it's easy to get around. Your character's been doing fine at it thus far, no reason he should stop now. Third, it's familiar (I mean, how were you supposed to know that those hills you bulldozed were daemonic burial mounds which would unleash a new age of darkness upon existance if disturbed?). Fourth, whether you want it to or not, setting up shop on another plane declares that you are Worthy of Notice. Building a retirement cottage somewhere doesn't. Fifth, the entire plane doesn't have to be one big "GO AWAY" sign if your home and it's immediate environs are. Find a deserted island in the middle of the ocean, build a house, stock it up, and teleport (or fly or sail) back as needed. Heck, if you build a dungeon, you're virtually guaranteed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html)to have some monsters drift in and defend it for you against those bothersome adventurers!

Dubious options not meant for the faint of heart:
- Carceri is unpleasant, but since it's a prison plane, if you faked your own imprisonment and did so in a relatively out of the way location, you might be able to con the locals into leaving you alone. "Dude, don't bug the wackos in solitary!" I wouldn't go for this myself, but maybe it'd make enough of a good story to intrigue your DM.
- Baator, if you're evil, willing to invest more than a few ranks in Profession (Lawyer), and possess something of value you wouldn't mind trading away, would be a better option than the Abyss due to the hope that the locals might be willing to abide by whatever "OHGODPLEASEDON'TKILLME!" treaty you signed with them. I think someone mentioned this.
- The Elemental Plane of Water. If you can set up shop there, you've got the payoff of most folks who come looking for you won't be used to fighting in water, but you've got the downside of locals who are. Still, conjure up a few guardians, bribe a couple horrors from the deep, and you're set. Maybe.

Though really, I think your objective and your solution are a bit out of line with one another. If you want to crown yourself Hellking, by all means, make a go for it! But if you want a quiet workshop, there's a lot of better places for it. I mean, the multiverse is a big place. The where is less important than the process.

Perhaps the best thing to do, though, is to find friends (PCs or NPCs) with pull somewhere who can not only give you a place to set up shop, but also do the guardwork while you play with magic. I mean, no matter where you are, it's hard to concentrate if the doorbell keeps ringing and you're the only one to answer it.

One of the examples from the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, for example, mentions some wizard plunking down on top of a gem mine or somesuch. The local authorities helped defray the cost of the castle/laboratory and provided a variety of assistance in exchange for knowing that a high-level wizard and his familiar/cohort/golem/summons were available to help defend their mining operation. A deal like that might not be so bad. You get your quiet research place, and the DM has plenty of plot-hooks to toss at you, and instant allies to help survive those plot-hooks (and, of course, the rampaging rust monster in the mineshaft is a far less dangerous hook than "Uncle Pit Fiend is stopping by for tea & crumpets").

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-15, 07:00 PM
I thought that the infinicity of each layer varied, but the amount of demons and layers was infinite...

^ EDIT: Well... Arcadia and Celestia's inhabitants will bug you for help with whatever evil they're planning to vanquish.
- Elysium is mind-altering (and that's a bad thing).
- Mechanusians will kill you in an excruciatingly lawful fashion if the arrangement of your bookshelf violates Forgotten Decree #36689T46A43.
- Sigil is too crowded.
- Dreamland is really freaking weird.
- I like Carceri, but it is a prison plane. You might get... imprisoned.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-15, 07:24 PM
I saw an interesting suggestion that the Abyss's having infinite layers was really only something they threw in to get rid of the number 666 for the same reason they got rid of demons and devils for a while ... and they simply forgot to fix things when 3e came around.

Innis Cabal
2007-04-15, 07:31 PM
if you look on the random level generator there is an area for Material plane-esque. It is not really that hard to set up shop there if you FIND one. Also different layers have different traits, or can have different traits. So it is possible to find a layer with a slight Neutral alingnment, normal magic traits, normal time traits, and thats like the material plane....good luck though

Vyker
2007-04-15, 07:36 PM
Well... Arcadia and Celestia's inhabitants will bug you for help with whatever evil they're planning to vanquish.
- Elysium is mind-altering (and that's a bad thing).
- Mechanusians will kill you in an excruciatingly lawful fashion if the arrangement of your bookshelf violates Forgotten Decree #36689T46A43.
- Sigil is too crowded.
- Dreamland is really freaking weird.
- I like Carceri, but it is a prison plane. You might get... imprisoned.

All of the above are true, but no matter where you go, you'll have to deal with both/either 1) people are already there, and 2) people can follow you there. You can't really get around that. So really, we're trying to find the options which have the least drawbacks.

Or, for Carceri, maybe we're just crazy. I mean, the OP did start off by wanting to go to hell.

Given my druthers, I'd rather have celestials for neighbors instead of daemons. They may still knock on my door, but at least they'll knock politely. And if you're on a lawful-good plane, a "No Trespassing" sign should keep out most of the locals (and if not, you can point at the sign and give them two rounds to get off your lawn... or else).

OzymandiasVolt
2007-04-15, 08:49 PM
Cast Genesis and make your own demiplane with restricted access. Problem solved. :D

Innis Cabal
2007-04-15, 09:32 PM
why settle for a demi-plane when you can have a whole infinite layer of hell that you can control and become a demon lord?

The_Snark
2007-04-15, 09:42 PM
why settle for a demi-plane when you can have a whole infinite layer of hell that you can control and become a demon lord?

Mostly, it's the neighbors. You know, always complaining that your hedge is growing into their lawn, listening in through their windows, and coming around to borrow things which they won't return.

Except that this is the Abyss. So they're launching massive demon invasions of your plane and consigning you to the Wells of Darkness.

Also, remember it's the Abyss the OP meant, not Hell. There's only nine layers of Hell; taking over even one is definitely epic-level.

Actually, though, for a reasonably high-level wizard (not necessarily epic), the Hells are probably a better place than the Abyss. Pick a layer that isn't too hostile (Dis, maybe), go way out from the Pit, and pay enough tribute to the local landlord archdevil that he doesn't bother you (but not so much that other archdevils start noticing you and wondering if they should be trying to claim your alleigance).

Innis Cabal
2007-04-15, 09:53 PM
i am well aware what the OP means, and sure the neighbors arnt that great but if there is only one or two gates it shouldnt be hard to keep the little pains under control. Not only that but taking over a level of hell is not only epic but should be its own game that at the end you see the true form of Azy...and he eats you for being so arrogant. Not to mention taking a layer of the Abyss should be an epic adventure as well, no charater 20 or less has a need for a plane

Matthew
2007-04-15, 10:00 PM
It's definitely true to say that this is sounding more and more like a Campaign Game or Plot Hook of some sort. Maybe the Arch Villain is a Wizard seeking to take over a layer of the Abyss or maybe he already has and is now embroiled in the Blood War...

Mewtarthio
2007-04-15, 10:05 PM
why settle for a demi-plane when you can have a whole infinite layer of hell that you can control and become a demon lord?

Because that requires a lengthly and complicated process that involves dying, being reborn as some demon's plaything (with a good chance of simply being eaten or something), and clawing your way up from the lowliest of depths to the greatest Demon Lords.

Vyker
2007-04-15, 10:05 PM
It's definitely true to say that this is sounding more and more like a Campaign Game or Plot Hook of some sort. Maybe the Arch Villain is a Wizard seeking to take over a layer of the Abyss or maybe he already has and is now embroiled in the Blood War...

Or spin it the other way, and have a Celestial Army charging into the Abyss... the PCs get to keep whatever the conquer!

Innis Cabal
2007-04-15, 10:11 PM
i like Vyker's idea....becuase you dont have to be good to work for good...and who wouldnt want an infinite plane...even half of an infinite plane...the more allies you have the less the demons will screw with you

Cocktail Umbrellas
2007-04-15, 10:14 PM
I'm sure if you fought tooth and nail you could eventually live in the Abyss. Though setting up shop in a place no one but demons wants to go is probably not all that profitable- unless you’re dealing in goods that demons want to invest in. In which case Mr. Adventurer would have to make a reputation for himself, but could probably work something out, though unlikely without the help/enslavement of inhabitants. But, if you did this you would technically be an Abyssal Lord yourself, and if you were seen as being weak, it’s unlikely, even if you are on the 217346th layer, that you’d be left alone.

Also, from what I understand, when a layer isn’t under any real sort of control, it skulks back to the layer it came from. If it’s not being dominated, the plane itself slurps it right back up to someplace where it can be of use, if a Prince or Lord doesn’t first.


Why? How? O.k. so its not a nice place to be (by virtue of being Hell) and the very nature of the place is Evil (by virtue of having an Evil Alignment trait), but that doesn't stop someone coming along, killing all the inhabitants and milking the landscape for profit and making small areas nice to live in...

Layer shifting. If a bunch of sods manage to tame a layer of the Abyss to the point that it is not reflecting the Abyss’ nature, it’s entirely possible that it will slip right out from the Abyss to someplace it feels more at home. Belief can literally move mountains in the planes...

As for a home or shop on the planes, I’m with The Snark on this one, if you want a demiplane, why not just make a demiplane? If a blood is strong enough to take over an Abyssal layer, might as well go to the ethereal and set up shop there... ‘Course there are risks in the Ethereal as well, but its probably equal effort, really. Neither one is particularly easy.

If you want easy, signing up with the Free Leaguers and/or setting up in Tradegate’s probably easiest, shop wise.
You want to be left alone, find some place in the Outlands or maybe Elysium.

NephandiMan
2007-04-16, 03:46 AM
Infinite demons in infinite layers...anyone else think "Hilbert's hell-tel problem"?

Now, if there are aleph-null layers, and aleph-null+1 demons...

(Obscure mathematical jokes FTW! :smallbiggrin:)

Then again, maybe we should get the MythBusters on it: "Well, Jamie, it's hot enough to fry an egg on your mustache - what are we doing here?"

"We're testing the myth that you can establish a suitable working environment in an obscure plane of the Abyss."

"Right, I've heard of that one..."

blackout
2007-04-16, 04:15 AM
Infinite demons in infinite layers...anyone else think "Hilbert's hell-tel problem"?

Now, if there are aleph-null layers, and aleph-null+1 demons...

(Obscure mathematical jokes FTW! :smallbiggrin:)

Then again, maybe we should get the MythBusters on it: "Well, Jamie, it's hot enough to fry an egg on your mustache - what are we doing here?"

"We're testing the myth that you can establish a suitable working environment in an obscure plane of the Abyss."

"Right, I've heard of that one..."

:amused: That's just funny.

Lolzords
2007-04-16, 04:29 AM
Mmm, Baator has nine layers, that's why it's "The nine hells of Baator"

1. Avernus
2. Dis
3. Minauros
4. Phelgethos
5. Stygia
6. Malbolge
7. Maladomini
8. Cania
9. Nessus

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-16, 04:29 AM
There are three types of demons in the abyss.
The most recent are strange, incorporeal creatures, far more subtle than the previous demons.

The next most recent (the tanari?) are bizarre, twisted creatures that incorporate aspects of creatures from other planes. A succubus, for instance, or a Balor, isn't really a very good embodiment of pure chaos. Their forms are quite regular and sane. You'll see many other demons with recognizable appendages and features. The tanari are describable.

The oldest demons are of waning power, but emobody pure chaos and malice. Merely being in the presence of one will drive one to madness. They are sorta like the mindless gods in Cthulhu mythos- pure madness for mortals. Of course, many of the D&D demons are of ancient and terrible intellect.

Iron_Mouse
2007-04-16, 05:15 AM
Back in Planescape, there were stories like the one about that abyss-fungus. An adventurer from a nameless material world went to the abyss to some random layer and (somehow) made it back alive.
Under his boot, however, he brought a tiny piece of a fungus that lived in said layer and looked completely harmless and inactive there. Back on the material, it started to grow. A short time later, the fungus grew all over the boot. The guy simply threw it away. The fungus continued to grow, faster and faster.

A few months later, the deities had to intervene to save the world from said fungus, which was threatening to completely overgrow it. Even the most powerful mortal magic and the united strength of all the inhabitants couldn't stop it. The gods barely saved the world by transporting the fungus to the quasielemental plane of vacuum.
But it survived even there, floating in patches in the darkness, literally feeding on the nothingness that makes up the plane and threatening everyone who's insane enough to go there.

PCs should expect to find stuff like that in the abyss (and probably in other lower planes, too). Imagine a supernatural disease that potent. Or swarms of tiny flesh-eating insects or whatever. That plane is EVIL, and it's great at that. At the moment you think you are in control, it pulls out the next trick. And you can never consider yourself save when even the most harmless-looking things are ready to kill you.

Honestly, if I would find a layer without demons, I would run like hell because there must be something so horrible that not even the fiends want to go there.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-04-16, 05:54 AM
...
Oh my god.
I've become determined to do this now.
And the DM isn't opposed.

I have a problem, though.
The game with the character in question is an Eberron setting.
Among the planes in Eberron, there's no real hell. Khyber is sort of the underdark on crack plus some aspects of the abyss, so that might work. I mean, it's literally the entirety of everything below, so there might be a hell.

Anything? Anyone? Beuller?

Illiterate Scribe
2007-04-16, 07:15 AM
Spelljammer Helm.

Smash your way through reality into Sigil.

BrokenButterfly
2007-04-16, 08:01 AM
Don't forget that according to the FC1 the layers are not located in the manner in which they are named. That is to say that the 6th layer is not below the 5th or above the 7th. They are named in the order in which they were discovered by the planar group which decided to map the Abyss.

There are no isolated layers of the Abyss, and your 12,394 layer could well be right next to the Gaping Maw or something even more dangerous. Setting up shop in the Abyss is insanity for most beings, Baator is a safer bet. Although I use the word "safe" in context...

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-16, 08:03 AM
Baator is a safer bet. Although I use the word "safe" in context...

Safe if you have divine ranks and lots of powerful allies.

That is, if 'setting up shop' involves a citadel and you still have a soul.

JellyPooga
2007-04-16, 09:24 AM
There are no isolated layers of the Abyss, and your 12,394 layer could well be right next to the Gaping Maw or something even more dangerous. Setting up shop in the Abyss is insanity for most beings, Baator is a safer bet. Although I use the word "safe" in context...

Surely 'isolation' in this context would mean 'as few portals leading to the layer as possible...i.e. One'? Regardless of its physical location. As far as I understand, the layers are fairly exclusive to one another, in that it's impossible to travel physically from one to the other without the aid of a portal or similar magic (gate, etc.).

BrokenButterfly
2007-04-16, 09:41 AM
Surely 'isolation' in this context would mean 'as few portals leading to the layer as possible...i.e. One'? Regardless of its physical location. As far as I understand, the layers are fairly exclusive to one another, in that it's impossible to travel physically from one to the other without the aid of a portal or similar magic (gate, etc.).

That is not true in the case of every layer. To use my previous example, The Gaping Maw, Demogorgon's realm consists of about half ocean. Now if you dive into the depths of that ocean and go down far enough then you will arrive at the layer below, Shadowsea. Baphomet's Endless Maze layer has a layer of insects above, therefore if you could fly up you could change layers. This is not always the case, and many layers are indeed self-contained. But I believe it is stated that the Layer of Portals, Pazunia, contains at least one gate to every layer of the Abyss that is in existence.

Tola
2007-04-16, 10:02 AM
....Waitaminute.

Infinite numbers of demons/devils/Very Bad Things, in infinite planes of existence, and they want to dominate/destroy all life.

How is it they haven't done so yet?

JadedDM
2007-04-16, 10:22 AM
Because they tend to fight each other too much to get a whole lot done.

Also...the idea of an entire plane with only one portal in or out? Planes are infinite in size. This strikes me as highly unlikely.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-16, 10:23 AM
....Waitaminute.

Infinite numbers of demons/devils/Very Bad Things, in infinite planes of existence, and they want to dominate/destroy all life.

How is it they haven't done so yet?
They are chaotic. They don't work together so well.

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-16, 10:29 AM
Not all planes are infinite, are they? I remember a whole section of some plane-related book that was devoted to the different ways a plane could have a finite area.

Tola
2007-04-16, 10:42 AM
They are chaotic. They don't work together so well.

Then I can safely say: they're all idiots.

Somebody get a propaganda expert down there pronto.

JellyPooga
2007-04-16, 10:42 AM
Also...the idea of an entire plane with only one portal in or out? Planes are infinite in size. This strikes me as highly unlikely.

It's not a Plane with one portal. One Layer of a Plane. Not all the layers of the Abyss are infinite in size either. It's not an unreasonable suggestion to say that there is at least one layer of the Abyss that is fairly small and has but one portal in or out (admittedly it would have to be from the 1st layer of the Abyss, which isn't a good thing, so for the purpose of this exercise you'd ideally want 2 - 1 to the 1st layer, the other to somewhere somewhat more hospitable)

Reinboom
2007-04-16, 11:03 AM
Not all layers of the abyss is infinite and even the abyss itself is only 'thought to be infinite' - as read from Fiendish Codex I.
Given, there are some strange layers, like lolth's that is more or less bridges with large amounts of web around them and strange gravity that fixates on the bridges.

Assuming there is an infinite number of layers and an infinite number of demons, given as read, then since there are multiple demons on a many layers there would thus be fewer on other layers if infinite == infinite, thus producing demonless layers. However, this is unlikely and doubtful.
Taking the great staircase and accidentally landing in an uninhabited layer of the abyss that has only a small gate to another or the main layer of the abyss is more likely to be discovered.

Ethdred
2007-04-16, 11:15 AM
I think this is a fab idea, and a lot of the objections voiced to it here are purely at the discretion of the DM (like, what if there isn't a Blood War?). Glad to hear your DM is up for the idea, shame about the Eberron thing, but I know nothing about that setting so can't help. But more generally, another great idea for this would be using it as a kind of theme park. So rather than destroying all the inhabitants (probably impossible even if they aren't infinite) you just clear enough out to make your citadel and then invite in adventurers from the (infinite?) Prime Material plane to come demon bashing. What paladin could resist the opportunity to defeat some serious chaos and evil, and then return to our 5 star resort hotel to relax by the pool with complimentary cocktails while our talented chefs cook up the best of inter-planar cuisine? You could control the entry and exit, and obviously they would be spending a significant amount of money equipping themselves in the shops you own/franchise. You could even get settlers moving in to set up in the town - particularly hardy settlers true, but nonetheless, there is always someone up for a challenge. As well as high level adventurers, you might even get upper planes types coming in for a bit of a jaunt.

And before people start posting 'If it was that well known then the demons would know about it and invade' - yeah, obviously, but think about the catgirls and let us have some fun with the concept!

factotum
2007-04-16, 11:27 AM
- The Astral Plane, home to giant floating eternally hungering maws and plenty of space to be where those giant floating eternally hungering maws aren't. Also, everywhere is a quick jaunt away!


Trouble is, aren't there hordes of githyanki also a quick jaunt away who might not be impressed with you setting up shop in their backyard?

Vyker
2007-04-16, 11:49 AM
Quite so, Factotum, quite so. But you get that anywhere in D&D. Place X has hordes of Monster Y which will consume Z Adventurers per round. But the Astral Plane has some really nifty advantages for a wizard's research lab. The biggest one is that it's timeless, yet still morphic. You don't age. You don't get hungry, or thirsty, or tired, or anything! If you've got a lot of dusty tomes to read, this might be the place to read 'em.

Also, it goes everywhere. So wherever you need to go for a specific experiment, spell component, or what-have-you, it shouldn't be too hard to get there (or get to the place which will get you there).

Problems do include those githyanki fellows, but again, every plane has its own brand of roving trouble. If you're not willing to shack up in Union or one of the more secure Good planes, you're going to get wandering monsters of one variety or another. Setting up shop anywhere invariably involves figuring out how to not be bothered by them!

Assassinfox
2007-04-16, 12:07 PM
If you're not willing to shack up in Union or one of the more secure Good planes...

BLASPHEMY!

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-16, 12:08 PM
Yeah but you retroactively age when you return to the material plane. If you spent 5,000 years on the Astral plane and then returned to a non timeless plane (and were a human) you would instantly turn to dust as you age 5,000 years in an instant.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-16, 12:16 PM
....Waitaminute.

Infinite numbers of demons/devils/Very Bad Things, in infinite planes of existence, and they want to dominate/destroy all life.

How is it they haven't done so yet?

They are currently mired in a conflict almost as old of time itself, against a race almost as old as they are- the eternal Blood War. Devil v. Demon.


Also...the idea of an entire plane with only one portal in or out? Planes are infinite in size. This strikes me as highly unlikely.

That's simply not true. There a many many ways in and out of the Abyss. Several neutral and chaotic evil aligned planes border the Abyss. There is also the great staircase which links all the planes, everywhere. Many of the denizens of the Abyss have innate plane shifting abilities, or artifacts, items or caster levels that let them do the same.

Vyker
2007-04-16, 12:17 PM
Yeah, the retro-active aging isn't fun, but I'm looking at it more from the perspective of a wizard who doesn't want to be interrupted by such mundane and trifling concerns as "food."

Or you could just hang out there until you're done making yourself into a lich.

NephandiMan
2007-04-16, 10:02 PM
BLASPHEMY!

Madness!

SPARTAAAAAAA!

(Couldn't resist). :smallbiggrin:

And now for something not so very different...

Infinite layers of hell on the wall,
infinite layers of hell,
take one down, pass it around,
infinite layers of hell on the wall...

Innis Cabal
2007-04-16, 10:06 PM
if you become a demon lord you could take over one, after all who says you have to be evil to be a demon lord? Look at shakled city. It may be a pain in the butt but what do you get in the end? Oh thats right a plane your in control of and demon lord power level.....and control over demon hordes...how insulting would it be to force your demons to fight other demons in the name of good?

Vyker
2007-04-16, 10:22 PM
Somehow, I doubt that you can become a daemon lord without being evil. It just seems wrong.

Innis Cabal
2007-04-16, 10:25 PM
yes it does but that dosnt change the fact that according to the rules there is a way to become a demon lord of a layer

Vyker
2007-04-16, 10:28 PM
Can you become ruler of a level without being evil, or can you become a daemon lord without being evil? What rules are these? 'cause I'd love to tweak that concept... maybe something for the next game I run.

Innis Cabal
2007-04-16, 10:31 PM
its in the shakled city adventure path done by dragon, and since it wa published and its 100 percent offical it is possible to do so. Its called the trial of the smoking eye, and if you are an epic level character and rule a layer you are the leader...not really a "demon" lord..so here is a reworded version....you can become the Overlord of plane....and thus control it like any other lord...

Vyker
2007-04-16, 10:42 PM
Okay. Well, at least that's suitably different. It'd be fun to watch a pack of PCs fight their way through the Abyss, confront the ruler of that layer, only to realize he's not such a bad guy after all. Yeah for wacky moral conundrums!

For that matter, if given reasonable opportunity and resources, on what plane/layer would you build your Ultimate Fortress/Estate/Lab, what would it be like, and who would your arch-nemesis be?

Aquillion
2007-04-16, 11:10 PM
...why not just set up shop in the Outlands? Not as impressive, sure, but as long as you don't make your location shift into a neighboring plane or get too close to Sigil, nobody cares what you do in the Outlands, and it actually is a time-honored strategy. Lots of gods have their realm in the Outlands somewhere. Plus, you can reach plenty of places from there, too.

Who's going to cause problems for you? The Rilmani? Like they care.

Rakeesh
2007-04-16, 11:43 PM
Given the two factors-infinite layers with infinite demons--what exactly is going to stop an unknown number of those infinite demons to mount up one overcast day in Hell and go trolling for trouble, eventually (and inevitably) stumbling upon your own little squatted-in home?

Reinboom
2007-04-17, 12:31 AM
Er, hell does not equal (!=) abyss in D&D. It's getting confusing to read these posts :x
demons are from the abyss, which is infinite (or thought to be). Also the numbers of the abyss layers are only the order they are discovered, any given 'layer' can be next to any other given layer. So arbitrary number 1,402,502,230 could be right to number 1,320 and number 2.
Abyss (Fiendish Codex I) is Chaotic Evil. Unorganized, endless.
In the abyss, you have to fight brutally and with an iron fist of power in order to control anything.

devils are from the hells, which is 9 semi neatly stacked layers. Asmodeus (who fell from the good planes) is at the bottom (nessus), and is thought to of accidentally formed the layers with his (literal) fall.
Hell (Fiendish Codex II) is Lawful Evil. Political, organized, limited.
In hell you have to find ways to deceive and to remove, and once in power, find ways to not folly and ways to just not die.

Ok, I think that should be a clear distinction.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-17, 02:38 AM
Demons != Devils.

Demons are CE, devils LE.

Kami2awa
2007-04-17, 05:39 AM
There are three types of demons in the abyss.
The most recent are strange, incorporeal creatures, far more subtle than the previous demons.

The next most recent (the tanari?) are bizarre, twisted creatures that incorporate aspects of creatures from other planes. A succubus, for instance, or a Balor, isn't really a very good embodiment of pure chaos. Their forms are quite regular and sane. You'll see many other demons with recognizable appendages and features. The tanari are describable.

The oldest demons are of waning power, but emobody pure chaos and malice. Merely being in the presence of one will drive one to madness. They are sorta like the mindless gods in Cthulhu mythos- pure madness for mortals. Of course, many of the D&D demons are of ancient and terrible intellect.

Quite possibly that means the lower layers are FULL of Oberiths (the oldest, Cthulhu-mythos demons) making them inhospitable for anything and anyone. Possibly right at the bottom is the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes ... Ia!

Ahem.

Ethdred
2007-04-17, 05:44 AM
Given the two factors-infinite layers with infinite demons--what exactly is going to stop an unknown number of those infinite demons to mount up one overcast day in Hell and go trolling for trouble, eventually (and inevitably) stumbling upon your own little squatted-in home?


Because they're all too busy trying to type the complete works of Shakespeare?

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-17, 05:50 AM
Quite possibly that means the lower layers are FULL of Oberiths (the oldest, Cthulhu-mythos demons) making them inhospitable for anything and anyone. Possibly right at the bottom is the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes ... Ia!

Ahem.

Ia!

123567