Optimisation Challenge: Highest Int at level 1

[nedz]

What's the highest Int you can have as a 1st level character ?

Assume you've 'rolled' an 18

I'll start off with a Venerable Half-fiend Halfling with 18+3+4 = 25

I'm pretty sure we can beat this

The point of this exercise is to test some arguments occurring in the current dysfunctional rules thread.

[WhamBamSam]

Do you mean level 1 or ECL 1? Because a Half-Fiend is not ECL 1.

If Dragon Magazine is available, Venerable Primordial Menta Cyclopean has +7 Int at LA+0. If not, Primordial Half-Giants have the same Int at LA+1.

If Dragon Magazine is available and Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons, then a Venerable Riddled Dragonwrought Kobold has +9 Int.

What is the specific dysfunction you're concerned about? Does it involve skill points?

[Sliver]

Level 1 as in first level the character takes, the point where it picks a language. Because the dysfunction is in that a character must have an amount of bonus languages equal to the int bonus, so I'm assuming nedz wants to see if it is possible to create a character that has more languages than it is possible to take. Because it is claimed that if you have higher Int than what your race gives you bonus languages, you are simply limited to classes and/or regions that give you bonus languages.

Is it possible to have such high Int that there isn't such a combination that would give you enough languages?

[WhamBamSam]

Level 1 as in first level the character takes, the point where it picks a language. Because the dysfunction is in that a character must have an amount of bonus languages equal to the int bonus, so I'm assuming nedz wants to see if it is possible to create a character that has more languages than it is possible to take. Because it is claimed that if you have higher Int than what your race gives you bonus languages, you are simply limited to classes and/or regions that give you bonus languages.

Is it possible to have such high Int that there isn't such a combination that would give you enough languages?Ah. In that case, I'd look at monsters rather than anything overly playable. Especially since most of them don't have Bonus Language options at all, so even a small uptick in their Int could result in dysfunction.

Alternately, seeing as LA is essentially a non-issue, the Paragon template in the ELH is +15 to all ability scores. A Venerable Phrenic Paragon Primordial Half-Giant can have 42 Int, which should be enough for to understand just how bad its +14 level adjustment really is and express that fact in more languages than it's possible for it to possess.

[nedz]

Thanks, though I'm not sure about the [Epic] template — that might not be in the spirit of the question. Well you'd have to be ECL 21 before applying the Epic template.

What's the highest we can get I wonder ?

Ed: it ought to be playable and advanceble by character level — or rather not. Bear in mind that some classes get bonus languages.

[Thurbane]

There must be room for Spellwarped in there somewhere?

[sideswipe]

if its an npc i believe there is a template that is +2LA and gives +2 to 1 ability score. i can't for the love of anything find it....

[Curmudgeon]

For this to matter, the ECL with 1 class level can't exceed 20. At ECL 21 the character is able to pick up 5 languages and then the Polyglot feat, which makes the issue irrelevant.

[Forrestfire]

Thanks, though I'm not sure about the [Epic] template — that might not be in the spirit of the question. Well you'd have to be ECL 21 before applying the Epic template.

What's the highest we can get I wonder ?

Ed: it ought to be playable and advanceble by character level — or rather not. Bear in mind that some classes get bonus languages.

Paragon can be put on any creature, not just epic ones. It's LA +11, if I'm recalling the table in the book correctly.

[nedz]

Found it in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm)

It doesn't list an LA here though, just CR +15. Still +15 to all stats solves this issue.

[Curmudgeon]

Found it in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm)

It doesn't list an LA here though, just CR +15. Still +15 to all stats solves this issue.
If it doesn't have a Level Adjustment (i.e., LA is "—"), it's impossible for it to meet the ECL < 21 requirement.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Found it in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm)

It doesn't list an LA here though, just CR +15. Still +15 to all stats solves this issue.

LA is on a table only listed in the epic level handbook. +11 sounds right. Page 156 lists the LA.

[Curmudgeon]

Paragon can be put on any creature, not just epic ones. It's LA +11, if I'm recalling the table in the book correctly.
You're recalling the LA computation correctly, but applying Paragon to any creature makes them Epic independent of ECL.
A few templates such as the paragon are also provided so you can create epic monsters from their lesser kin in the Monster Manual and other sources.

[ExLibrisMortis]

There isn't a real definition of 'epic monster' in the ELH, other than the implied 'monsters that are mostly/only fought by epic adventurers'. There certainly isn't any kind of [epic] type that might identify them. That text you quote is from the summary of chapter 5 in the ELH, and there's no mention of it anywhere in the template itself, or even in chapter 5 (on monsters). Since the template grants no HD at all, any creature with 20 or fewer HD still can't take epic feats, even with the paragon template.

I should note that the example paragon mind flayer has 8 HD, 9 feats and 5 epic feats - ECL 26. I'm not sure how that works.

[Max Caysey]

I would go Sarrukh Wizard with the Paragon templete.

That would be 38 without the tamplate 53 with.

[Curmudgeon]

That text you quote is from the summary of chapter 5 in the ELH, and there's no mention of it anywhere in the template itself, or even in chapter 5 (on monsters).
No, the quote is actually from page 4, in the Introduction.


I would go Sarrukh Wizard with the Paragon templete.
:sigh:
The requirement is for it to be a non-Epic level 1 character.
Because they are extraordinarily powerful creatures, all sarrukh with class levels are automatically epic-level characters. The exercise is to have so much Intelligence your starting languages exceed the maximum number you have available to you. All Epic characters with such high Intelligence qualify for Polyglot [Epic], which makes the problem disappear.

[Endarire]

Old Gray Elf Bard with maxed Speak Language/Linguistics?

[EugeneVoid]

Is languages the question or Intelligence? If Intelligence is what we are maxing and LA is just no issue whats to stop just tacking on every possible template and gaining a ridiculous intelligence?

[JoranShadeslayr]

I have always wondered why people think the paragon template has a LA of +11. Nowhere in the epic level handbook is a LA for the paragon template, or the psuedonatural template either for that matter. The list on page 156 doesn't have an entry for paragon creature just for the paragon mind flayer. If you deduct the +7 LA of a standard mindflayer from the +26 of the paragon mindflayer you get 19 not 11, so this implies a LA of +19 even though the template doesn't list a LA at all.

[WhamBamSam]

I have always wondered why people think the paragon template has a LA of +11. Nowhere in the epic level handbook is a LA for the paragon template, or the psuedonatural template either for that matter. The list on page 156 doesn't have an entry for paragon creature just for the paragon mind flayer. If you deduct the +7 LA of a standard mindflayer from the +26 of the paragon mindflayer you get 19 not 11, so this implies a LA of +19 even though the template doesn't list a LA at all.The Mind Flayer has 8 RHD.

Even ignoring Paragon, there are probably other Int boosting template stacks that'll get you high enough to result in this dysfunction. A Venerable Phrenic Spellwarped Half-Illithid Primordial Half-Giant has a level adjustment of 11 and can have 35 Int, which will probably be enough.

[JoranShadeslayr]

The Mind Flayer has 8 RHD.

Even ignoring Paragon, there are probably other Int boosting template stacks that'll get you high enough to result in this dysfunction. A Venerable Phrenic Spellwarped Half-Illithid Primordial Half-Giant has a level adjustment of 11 and can have 35 Int, which will probably be enough.

Ah. Forgot about those RHD. I always seem to do that.

[Curmudgeon]

Is languages the question or Intelligence?
Here's a rule which you are required to follow when creating a level 1 character:
A smart character (one who had an Intelligence bonus at 1st level) speaks other languages as well, one extra language per point of Intelligence bonus as a starting character. It's not that they can speak up to that number of bonus languages; it's the rule that they do speak that many other languages.

The exercise is to create a level 1 non-Epic character with an INT so high the number of languages they are required to speak forces the character to be a Human or Half-Elf or some other race with "Bonus Languages: Any", because their access to bonus languages is otherwise insufficient. So far, I haven't found any non-Epic combination which causes the language rule to exclude all other racial choices.

[ben-zayb]

An epic Illithid wizard (or erudite, or cerebremancer, or mind mage, etc) casts an Intensified Awaken spell to a tiny tree, resulting in a 1/2 HD Phrenic, Spellwarped "Animated Tree" with 44 (36+4+4) Int score.

It's a shame that half-illithid is just harder to justify by RAW, as that would've been awfully in theme as well.


EDIT: Oops. I realized that "animated trees" have their own rules on gaining languages.

[Kurald Galain]

Here's a rule which you are required to follow when creating a level 1 character: It's not that they can speak up to that number of bonus languages; it's the rule that they do speak that many other languages.

Well, I'm all in favor of optimizing int at level 1, but it's rather absurd to infer from the rules that this somehow forces certain classes to be human or half-elf only.

It's really not hard. If you get to pick ten languages from a list that contains only five languages, then you're going to end up with all five and nothing more. No dysfunction, no "game crash", this is about as straightforward as it gets.

So anyway, to answer the OP's question, I believe there's a few ways to start with a magical (heirloom) item, so use that to tack on a headband of intelligence +4?

[Curmudgeon]

If you get to pick ten languages from a list that contains only five languages, then you're going to end up with all five and nothing more. No dysfunction, ...
What makes you think you get to pick from that list? Page 6 of Player's Handbook details the steps of creating a level 1 character. Your ability scores come before choice of race and class. Your alignment comes at the end. You don't get to pick a Chaotic alignment after you've chosen the Monk class. Similarly, you don't get to pick a race with insufficient bonus languages after you've chosen a high INT. Early choices can preclude freedom to make later picks.

[JyP]

I currently use this in my campaign for those who especially thirst for Int :


This is a Cursed Tome of Clear Thoughts (+5). Current holder is a goblin, who had to eat the Tome sheet by sheet, and acquired a strange taste for brains. The curse is to slowly transform the reader into a mind flayer, through Illithid Heritage feats or even more radical changes : here a basic Goblin got transformed into a Blue (psionic goblin) with added Power Resistance (Savage Species, Ritual of Vitality), gained psion levels then Flayerspawn Psychic levels - and maybe he will transform in true Illithid in the future. The Tome will reset itself once the Goblin dies - by bursting from his stomach, Alien style.

So you can have better Int - but you know you will have an interesting evolution in the future :smallbiggrin:

[Ashtagon]

Here's a rule which you are required to follow when creating a level 1 character: It's not that they can speak up to that number of bonus languages; it's the rule that they do speak that many other languages.

The exercise is to create a level 1 non-Epic character with an INT so high the number of languages they are required to speak forces the character to be a Human or Half-Elf or some other race with "Bonus Languages: Any", because their access to bonus languages is otherwise insufficient. So far, I haven't found any non-Epic combination which causes the language rule to exclude all other racial choices.

Clearly, any extra languages are conlangs that the character has invented themselves, and no one else can understand.

[Chronos]

Wait, I sense a problem: Your base ability scores are determined as the first step in the process, but your final ability scores aren't determined until after you've selected a race, because they'll be modified by your racial bonuses and penalties. So a player could, for instance, start by rolling an 18 in Int, which would give 4 bonus languages. Primordial half-giants have four languages available, so that player could then choose primordial half-giant as a race. But now, after the race is selected, the character has 22 Int and needs 6 bonus languages.

[Curmudgeon]

... But now, after the race is selected, the character has 22 Int and needs 6 bonus languages.
There are bonus languages for both region of origin and class. Cleric provides 3 bonus languages, for instance. High INT may constrain the solution space for the various combinations of INT and race but not completely rule them out.

[Chronos]

Right, but it at least takes the "constrained to be human or half-elf" option off of the table. Regions and classes only provide finite additions to the list, so we can probably still crank Int up high enough that no option could add enough.

[Troacctid]

What makes you think you get to pick from that list? Page 6 of Player's Handbook details the steps of creating a level 1 character. Your ability scores come before choice of race and class. Your alignment comes at the end. You don't get to pick a Chaotic alignment after you've chosen the Monk class. Similarly, you don't get to pick a race with insufficient bonus languages after you've chosen a high INT. Early choices can preclude freedom to make later picks.

You can totally pick a Chaotic alignment after choosing the Monk class. It just makes you an ex-Monk.

Anyway, languages are governed by the Speak Language skill, and skill selection happens after race selection.

[Curmudgeon]

You can totally pick a Chaotic alignment after choosing the Monk class. It just makes you an ex-Monk.
We're talking at character creation. You don't have a chance to be an ex-anything until you've actually qualified for a class level.

Anyway, languages are governed by the Speak Language skill, and skill selection happens after race selection.
That's only partly correct. There's nothing about skills in the RACE AND LANGUAGES rule (Player's Handbook, page 12):
A smart character (one who had an Intelligence bonus at 1st level) speaks other languages as well, one extra language per point of Intelligence bonus as a starting character. Select your character’s bonus languages (if any) from the list found in his or her race’s description later in this chapter.

[dextercorvia]

A Spellwarped, Phrenic, Primordial Ogre Mage can have an Int of 32=18+4(Ogre Mage)+4(Primordial)+2(Phrenic)+4(Spellwarped). It will have 5RHD and LA+12. Ogre Mage only has 4 Bonus Language choices, and one of them (Infernal) overlaps with Cleric. So, that is 11 Bonus Languages and only 4 from Race and 2 from class. Are there any regions that provide 5 Bonus Language choices?

[Curmudgeon]

That's an ECL 18 creature with 1 class level, which is below the Epic threshold; that's good.

Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Goblin, Infernal, Orc.
A cleric’s bonus language options include Celestial, Abyssal, and Infernal.

The Ashane region (first one on the table @ Player's Guide to Faerûn, page 30) has
Bonus Languages: Aquan, Auran, Giant, Goblin, Mulhorandi, Rashemi, Shou, Tuigan.

So this Ogre Mage with all the templates still is a viable racial choice; INT doesn't force you to choose something else with Bonus Languages: Any. It doesn't even force you to choose Cleric; you could choose Druid instead, picking up Sylvan as another bonus language.

[EugeneVoid]

Well, how many languages are there?

[Thurbane]

Well, how many languages are there?

At least this many: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?208167-Complete-List-of-Languages

[Chronos]

I still don't think forcing a region is legitimate. It might be legitimate for campaigns set in that world, but not all campaigns are set in Faerun.

[dextercorvia]

Okay,

A Riddled, Spellhoarding, Half-Dragon, Half-Fiend, Half-Nymph, Spellwarped, Phrenic Wyrmling Mercury Dragon can have an Int of 40=18 Base + 2 Phrenic + 4 Spellwarped + 2 Half-Nymph + 4 Half-Fiend + 2 Half-Dragon +2 Spellhoarding +6 Riddled.

Nothing about the other templates changes Mercury Dragon's Age categories, so when Half-Dragon switches the type back to dragon, he is eligible for the Dragon only acquired templates: Riddled and Spellhoarding.

His ECL at Character level 1 is 20 = 3RHD+2LA+2 Phrenic+3 Spellwarped + 2 Half-Nymph + 4 Half-Fiend + 3 Half-Dragon + 1 Class Level.

Dragons have no Bonus languages from Race, so he would need to come up with 15 Bonus languages from a combination of class and region.

[WhamBamSam]

Okay,

A Riddled, Spellhoarding, Half-Dragon, Half-Fiend, Half-Nymph, Spellwarped, Phrenic Wyrmling Mercury Dragon can have an Int of 40=18 Base + 2 Phrenic + 4 Spellwarped + 2 Half-Nymph + 4 Half-Fiend + 2 Half-Dragon +2 Spellhoarding +6 Riddled.

Nothing about the other templates changes Mercury Dragon's Age categories, so when Half-Dragon switches the type back to dragon, he is eligible for the Dragon only acquired templates: Riddled and Spellhoarding.

His ECL at Character level 1 is 20 = 3RHD+2LA+2 Phrenic+3 Spellwarped + 2 Half-Nymph + 4 Half-Fiend + 3 Half-Dragon + 1 Class Level.

Dragons have no Bonus languages from Race, so he would need to come up with 15 Bonus languages from a combination of class and region.Riddled is acquired, which is a problem for this exercise. Also, you probably need to juggle the order of those templates around if you want it to have the dragon type to even qualify for Riddled.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Get a hold of a pair of metamagic rods: One of Empower Spell, one of Maximize Spell.

Cast Awaken.

3d6 Int becomes (18+50%=27)

Add whatever fancy stuff you people do.

????

Prof- Wait, no. Go Psion until you get Control Body, and use another creature as your proxy body.

Profit.

[Curmudgeon]

Get a hold of a pair of metamagic rods: One of Empower Spell, one of Maximize Spell.
Not going to work.
Metamagic Rods
Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.
Plus, of course, this doesn't satisfy the terms of the exercise. Awaken doesn't have an associated LA (essentially "─"), so you can't do the arithmetic to say that the creature doesn't exceed ECL 20.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Awaken doesn't have an associated LA (essentially "─"), so you can't do the arithmetic to say that the creature doesn't exceed ECL 20.

...Um, what does that have to do with anything? Awaken doesn't change the LA at all, why would you need to calculate a non-change?

EDIT- Also, yes, fudge. I always forget about the MM-Rod limitation. Whatever though, MM-Rod of Max and then use the Empower MM. Doesn't invalidate the idea, just makes it a touch harder to do.

[General Sajaru]

Why not just use an Intensified Awaken for all stats at 36?

[Troacctid]

...Um, what does that have to do with anything? Awaken doesn't change the LA at all, why would you need to calculate a non-change?

Trees and animals have LA: ─ to start with, sooo...

[Tohsaka Rin]

Why not just use an Intensified Awaken for all stats at 36?

Because A) Awaken only changes Int and Cha.

And B) I didn't know that MM existed. Wow, I do now though, wow.

[dextercorvia]

Riddled is acquired, which is a problem for this exercise. Also, you probably need to juggle the order of those templates around if you want it to have the dragon type to even qualify for Riddled.

If you read the order I gave the templates from right to left, you will see that I applied Riddled last. I even mentioned it in that post. You go from being a dragon to aberration to fey to outsider back to dragon. Since you still have your age categories (and any other dragon qualifying feature) from being a Mercury dragon, when you take Half-Dragon (your last inherited template), it brings you back to dragon type, and you qualify for the dragon psychosis.

[EugeneVoid]

Voidmind gives +2 int for 1 LA

[WhamBamSam]

If you read the order I gave the templates from right to left, you will see that I applied Riddled last. I even mentioned it in that post. You go from being a dragon to aberration to fey to outsider back to dragon. Since you still have your age categories (and any other dragon qualifying feature) from being a Mercury dragon, when you take Half-Dragon (your last inherited template), it brings you back to dragon type, and you qualify for the dragon psychosis.You're right about the typing. I didn't read your post carefully enough.

Still, it would presumably contract the Psychoses after selecting languages, so being an acquired template is still an issue here.

[dextercorvia]

You're right about the typing. I didn't read your post carefully enough.

Still, it would presumably contract the Psychoses after selecting languages, so being an acquired template is still an issue here.

I don't think so. You select languages after race (including acquired templates, if desired). At the level of Rules Pedantry where your intelligence may be high enough to force a specific class choice or region, then we are not worried about organic character growth or common sense.


Voidmind gives +2 int for 1 LA

Presumably you are using Crystalkeep. They have the incorrect LA for that template. It is actually +3.

[nedz]

Sorry — I've been offline for a couple of weeks — time to pick this up again perhaps ?

Okay,

A Riddled, Spellhoarding, Half-Dragon, Half-Fiend, Half-Nymph, Spellwarped, Phrenic Wyrmling Mercury Dragon can have an Int of 40=18 Base + 2 Phrenic + 4 Spellwarped + 2 Half-Nymph + 4 Half-Fiend + 2 Half-Dragon +2 Spellhoarding +6 Riddled.

Nothing about the other templates changes Mercury Dragon's Age categories, so when Half-Dragon switches the type back to dragon, he is eligible for the Dragon only acquired templates: Riddled and Spellhoarding.

His ECL at Character level 1 is 20 = 3RHD+2LA+2 Phrenic+3 Spellwarped + 2 Half-Nymph + 4 Half-Fiend + 3 Half-Dragon + 1 Class Level.

Dragons have no Bonus languages from Race, so he would need to come up with 15 Bonus languages from a combination of class and region.
Even if we dump the acquired templates from this build we still have 11 Bonus languages, which should be enough.

Also: I'm not happy about adding in constraints which relate to a specific region AND setting. At the very least this should be conditional on the question.