Dragon charger optimization help

[Temennigru]

I am building a character that flies and dives straight down to hit people with tiny nuclear explosions by stacking charge multipliers. Problem is I'm missing flat damage to get my money's worth with the multipliers.

Here is the build
Jaina Silverheart (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=170170)
Female Neutral Good Silverbrow Human Fighter 6, Warblade 3, Level 9, Init 3, HP 77/77, Speed 30
AC 16, Touch 10, Flat-footed 15, Fort 11, Ref 4, Will 3, Base Attack Bonus 9/1
Dragonfang(silver, cold), Valorous, +1, Morphing Halberd +1 (1d10 + 2, x3)
+1 Speed Mithrall shirt (+6 Armor, +1 Dex, -1 Misc)
Abilities Str 18, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 11
Condition None


Feats & Special Abilities

Flaw 1 - Dragon Wings
Flaw 2 -
1 - Furious Charge
3 - Diving Charge
6 - Improved Dragon Wings
9 - Improved Flight
Fighter 1 - Power Attack
Fighter 2 - Improved Bull Rush
Fighter 4 -
Fighter 6 - Shock Trooper

Damage (Low)(Med)(High)

Not Charging: 1d10 + 1 + 1 + 6 + 18 (28)(31)(36)
Charging: (1d10 + 1 + 1 + 6 + 18) * 3 + 1d6 (82)(96)(114)

[Karl Aegis]

I don't see any abilities that give control over nuclear energy. Please point them out.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The Collision enhancement adds a flat 5 damage. You also seem to be missing a strength item (unless you started with less than 18 strength).
For the rest there's buffs.

[Temennigru]

You also seem to be missing a strength item (unless you started with less than 18 strength).
For the rest there's buffs.

Strength items are a hella expensive and don't give me enough bonus damage


The Collision enhancement adds a flat 5 damage.
For the rest there's buffs.

Collision is a +2 enhancement, which brings my halberd to 32k, which is prohibitive when you start with 36. I might pick it up if we level up before switching characters.



Perhaps I can get ancestral relic feat at lvl 4.

[OldTrees1]

Um. The +18 at 6th from Power Attack seems like it ought to be sufficient.

[Temennigru]

Um. The +18 at 6th from Power Attack seems like it ought to be sufficient.

Not when we are fighting monsters with 150+ hp. I also don't plan on charging all the time (Since you need at least 2 turns to charge)

[SangoProduction]

Not when we are fighting monsters with 150+ hp. I also don't plan on charging all the time (Since you need at least 2 turns to charge)

Unless you charge between multiple enemies.

As to the original question: the elemental damage enchantments (acidic, flaming, etc) average a +3.5 damage per plus. So, with +2 worth of enchantments, you gain an average of +7 damage per strike.
Also, power attack is your optimal way of getting damage, in all honesty.

[Sith_Happens]

Needs more Pounce and Battle Jump.

[Temennigru]

Needs more Pounce and Battle Jump.

Pounce is cheese and battle jump is not allowed in a dive


Unless you charge between multiple enemies.

As to the original question: the elemental damage enchantments (acidic, flaming, etc) average a +3.5 damage per plus. So, with +2 worth of enchantments, you gain an average of +7 damage per strike.
Also, power attack is your optimal way of getting damage, in all honesty.

Dice damage is not multiplied except for the weapon's base damage.

[Lorddenorstrus]

the Dragon Born Template at LA 0 for wings might be a cheaper way to get wings. They don't go full functional until 6th lvl then it's temp, and go into full wings at 11th or something, which is later but they're also a +10 to jump so you can get Leap attack. Also -2 Dex +2 Con

Also I wouldn't say Pounce is cheesy it's one of those 2 things that a melee guy needs by like lvl 10 to even function properly. Otherwise you might as well all play spellcasters and Leadership in some cohort melee idiots. A cheap way to get it is 1 lvl Barb and ACF away the +10 move into Pounce via Lion Totem.

[Ellowryn]

You also lack the Leap Attack feat, due to the how it interacts with your flight i assume, but you are missing out on +2 damage per BaB you (don't actually) lose.

Also, if you think pounce is cheese then how can you even stand to play with ToB?

[Temennigru]

You also lack the Leap Attack feat, due to the how it interacts with your flight i assume, but you are missing out on +2 damage per BaB you (don't actually) lose.

Also, if you think pounce is cheese then how can you even stand to play with ToB?

1- You can't leap while flying
2- ToB can be played honestly


the Dragon Born Template at LA 0 for wings might be a cheaper way to get wings. They don't go full functional until 6th lvl then it's temp, and go into full wings at 11th or something, which is later but they're also a +10 to jump so you can get Leap attack. Also -2 Dex +2 Con

Also I wouldn't say Pounce is cheesy it's one of those 2 things that a melee guy needs by like lvl 10 to even function properly. Otherwise you might as well all play spellcasters and Leadership in some cohort melee idiots. A cheap way to get it is 1 lvl Barb and ACF away the +10 move into Pounce via Lion Totem.

My character has to be a silverbrow human for flavor purposes. If I wanted easier wings, I would've taken any other naturally flying race.

UPDATE I found out I could not get improved flight and flyby attack because of the flight prerequisite, so I updated the build
I might just get rid of furious charge and take the tripper kit (combat expertise, improved trip and knockdown)

[Lorddenorstrus]

1- You can't leap while flying
2- ToB can be played honestly



My character has to be a silverbrow human for flavor purposes. If I wanted easier wings, I would've taken any other naturally flying race.

UPDATE I found out I could not get improved flight and flyby attack because of the flight prerequisite, so I updated the build
I might just get rid of furious charge and take the tripper kit (combat expertise, improved trip and knockdown)


Tome of Battle.. played "Honestly" or not is a book with extremely simple classes. Crusader being the worst offender of that, literally telling you what to do each round from their maneuver access. Regardless of how poorly one plays a ToB class they will sit at about a tier 3 power level maneuvers do the work for them, you just use the maneuvers. For a non ToB melee to reach that power level they have to use Pounce otherwise they simply are sub par. So Pounce isn't cheesy in any environment ToB is allowed.

Also the Leap / flying thing came up awhile ago. The only argument to not allow jump checks to be done while flying was Fluff text. Jumping in the air is like crunching up the wings and expanding them rapidly to shove further up into the air. So yeah you can use Tiger Claw maneuvers while flying. So I see no reason Leap attack wouldn't work either. Besides mechanical allowing aside it also makes sense. Leaping at someone to get a lil more power into the swing, ok in the air.. blast towards someone and drop when near them for a similar slam. I'd say they need to land after to get the full weight of the swing rather than do a flyby.. but still.

[Temennigru]

Tome of Battle.. played "Honestly" or not is a book with extremely simple classes. Crusader being the worst offender of that, literally telling you what to do each round from their maneuver access. Regardless of how poorly one plays a ToB class they will sit at about a tier 3 power level maneuvers do the work for them, you just use the maneuvers. For a non ToB melee to reach that power level they have to use Pounce otherwise they simply are sub par. So Pounce isn't cheesy in any environment ToB is allowed.
Pounce lets you full attack with charge getting the bonus damage off twice. That alone sounds as cheesy as the base for the pun-pun build.
Doing a pounce while flying is just insane. You would have to drop over your target twice to get that done in real life, so besides being cheesy, it makes no sense.


Also the Leap / flying thing came up awhile ago. The only argument to not allow jump checks to be done while flying was Fluff text. Jumping in the air is like crunching up the wings and expanding them rapidly to shove further up into the air. So yeah you can use Tiger Claw maneuvers while flying. So I see no reason Leap attack wouldn't work either. Besides mechanical allowing aside it also makes sense. Leaping at someone to get a lil more power into the swing, ok in the air.. blast towards someone and drop when near them for a similar slam. I'd say they need to land after to get the full weight of the swing rather than do a flyby.. but still.
DM already said he wouldn't allow leaping in the air since diving charge already gives me damage bonus for gravity and it would complicate things too much. I kind of agree with him.

[Sam K]

Pounce lets you full attack with charge getting the bonus damage off twice. That alone sounds as cheesy as the base for the pun-pun build.
Doing a pounce while flying is just insane. You would have to drop over your target twice to get that done in real life, so besides being cheesy, it makes no sense.


DM already said he wouldn't allow leaping in the air since diving charge already gives me damage bonus for gravity and it would complicate things too much. I kind of agree with him.

Lets turn the pounce-issue around:

Melees get one "built in" way to do more damage as they level up; base attack bonus. Higher BaB lets you hit more often and (eventually) make more attacks.

Only, half the time, one of those advantages doesn't apply. When you charge (or when you have to move, really), you don't get the advantage of iterative attacks. Let's consider that for a moment: in the most common battle situation (the one where people are moving around), YOU LOSE OUT ON YOUR MAIN FORM OF INCREASING YOUR DAMAGE! Now that is... what is the opposite of cheesy? Bready? We'll go with bready, and that is bready as hell! It's like telling a caster that before they can cast a high level spell, they need to cast a lower level one first. "Want to cast heal on your dying team-mate? Sorry bro, you need to cast cure light wounds first, because actually being able to use your class features when you need them would be too cheesy."

Look at your build: you're spending EVERY feat you get in order to be able to do decent melee damage while charging. And it doesn't work that well because you only get to do one attack. Being able to do good damage for one round is what a charger build is about; you already have to get in position to charge, and if they survive your first charge you have to move away to set up another one (or charge something else). Is it "cheesy" that you get to be remotely competent at the one thing you've invested all your feats and WBL in?

As far as things "not making sense", part of your character concept is essentially that a big firebreathing lizard (or do silver dragons breathe cold, I can never remember) at some point in time had sex with your ancestor, and because of that you can grow wings because... err... you really wanted to? While all the other fighters were learning weapon focus, you were forcing bones to grow out of your spine? And you did it by being near sighted (or whatever flaw you took)!

This is D&D, 90% of the things you see won't make sese, including the physics behind your characters flight. Why are people so obsessed with making tiny bits of melee combat "realistic"? It's the same melee combat in which you take a greatsword to the face and actually consider it "just a flesh wound".

Seriously though, D&D combats is already a bunch of abstractions and shortcuts in order to let characters do cool stuff without worrying too much. I would just re-fluff pounce as "charge mastery" or something - training in striking multiple blows on the charge. No worries about the physics, and you actually get to be good at the one thing your character is suppose to be good at.

[Temennigru]

Lets turn the pounce-issue around:

Melees get one "built in" way to do more damage as they level up; base attack bonus. Higher BaB lets you hit more often and (eventually) make more attacks.

Only, half the time, one of those advantages doesn't apply. When you charge (or when you have to move, really), you don't get the advantage of iterative attacks. Let's consider that for a moment: in the most common battle situation (the one where people are moving around), YOU LOSE OUT ON YOUR MAIN FORM OF INCREASING YOUR DAMAGE! Now that is... what is the opposite of cheesy? Bready? We'll go with bready, and that is bready as hell! It's like telling a caster that before they can cast a high level spell, they need to cast a lower level one first. "Want to cast heal on your dying team-mate? Sorry bro, you need to cast cure light wounds first, because actually being able to use your class features when you need them would be too cheesy."

Look at your build: you're spending EVERY feat you get in order to be able to do decent melee damage while charging. And it doesn't work that well because you only get to do one attack. Being able to do good damage for one round is what a charger build is about; you already have to get in position to charge, and if they survive your first charge you have to move away to set up another one (or charge something else). Is it "cheesy" that you get to be remotely competent at the one thing you've invested all your feats and WBL in?

That's how honest feat optimization works. I don't want to kill a CR20 dragon at level 9. I just want to do decent damage. And being able to make multiple attacks while having your damage HEAVILY multiplied by gravity and weapon bonuses is indeed cheese. A completely optimized bottom-up uber-charger can deal HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of damage in a single attack, while a completely top-bottom build is complete crap because you are stuck to your design when picking your build. I just want an honest middle-out build that can deal damage on-par with the rest of the party while still maintaining most of the character depth to make a good story.

I have enough stats points and money to buy off all of my other weaknesses.

The last time I tried an optimized bottom-up feat whore archer build (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=108818) that dealt 72d6 + 100 damage per shot, the group threatened to kick me out. I learned my lesson.



As far as things "not making sense", part of your character concept is essentially that a big firebreathing lizard (or do silver dragons breathe cold, I can never remember) at some point in time had sex with your ancestor, and because of that you can grow wings because... err... you really wanted to? While all the other fighters were learning weapon focus, you were forcing bones to grow out of your spine? And you did it by being near sighted (or whatever flaw you took)!


That actually does make sense and is explained in dragon magic:
Dragons can take the form of humans. When they are in that form, they can have intercourse with other humans and create offspring. The half-dragon offspring are then hidden and learn to disguise themselves as humans. The cycle repeats itself until no further dragon traits are visible. Somewhere along the line, someone in the bloodline is born with dragon-like wings because of a recessive gene. So you don't chose to have wings. You are born with them. That's why you have to pick up the feat at level 1.

The flaw-to-feat thing is a balancing thing. It's not meant to mean anything in reality. You have a flaw and you have a feat.



This is D&D, 90% of the things you see won't make sense, including the physics behind your characters flight. Why are people so obsessed with making tiny bits of melee combat "realistic"? It's the same melee combat in which you take a greatsword to the face and actually consider it "just a flesh wound".
Seriously though, D&D combats is already a bunch of abstractions and shortcuts in order to let characters do cool stuff without worrying too much. I would just re-fluff pounce as "charge mastery" or something - training in striking multiple blows on the charge. No worries about the physics, and you actually get to be good at the one thing your character is suppose to be good at.

The system simulates reality the best it can. Just because it simplifies the mechanics of real life doesn't mean you can exploit the rules to do ridiculous things such as swimming while flying. The game is made for people to pretend they are creatures of another world and have fun. Not for people to exploit some silly misswording and ruin the game trying to "win". Pounce while diving sounds ridiculous because the whole idea behind double damage is that you use your momentum to deal damage. You can't use your momentum twice.

Lastly
I decided to pick up the tripper kit because it made sense to knock my opponent prone when falling form the sky on top of him, and it also gives me an extra attack to deal reasonable follow-up damage after a charge.
Thank you all for your help.

[Sam K]

The game is made for people to pretend they are creatures of another world and have fun.

This is pretty much my point as well, actually (though we do reach it from different directions). The rules exist to let you do cool stuff and have fun pretending to be a creature from another world. But specifically for that reason, I try not to micromanage tiny bits of physics in combat. Using flaws to get more feats to get wings is indeed a matter of balance, and about being able to build the character you want. But so is pounce. Pounce is a (relatively) simple way to build a charger (without having to invest every feat you get for 10 levels to be decent at it).

I don't really encourage building characters that would deal thousands of damage at level 9 either; however, I would rather start with pounce, then take power attack and maybe one more feat to up charge damage, instead of investing all my feats into a single attack. And I wouldn't worry about how I "pounce" from flight any more than I try to decode where in the human genome dragon wings hide. Flying in and making an awesome charge attack is just cool, and you should be able to do it with a minimum amount of hussle.

That being said, you should obviously build the character you enjoy the most, and feel comfortable playing. I realize my reasoning doesn't make sense for everyone and that's ok (people are allowed to be wrong :))

[Sith_Happens]

Pounce is a (relatively) simple way to build a charger (without having to invest every feat you get for 10 levels to be decent at it).
...
I would rather start with pounce, then take power attack and maybe one more feat to up charge damage, instead of investing all my feats into a single attack.

I think you're overestimating temmenigru's investment. (Improved) Dragon Wings and Improved Flight don't really count since they're already useful on their own and Furious Charge and Diving Charge are just filler*, which leaves Shock Trooper and the halberd being Valorous.

* Filler which can easily be cut in favor of just putting Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush in those slots and saving the trouble of taking Fighter 2-6.

[Temennigru]

I think you're overestimating temmenigru's investment. (Improved) Dragon Wings and Improved Flight don't really count since they're already useful on their own and Furious Charge and Diving Charge are just filler*, which leaves Shock Trooper and the halberd being Valorous.

* Filler which can easily be cut in favor of just putting Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush in those slots and saving the trouble of taking Fighter 2-6.

Diving charge is not filler. It allows me to not catastrophically hit the ground when diving.
There is also another reason why I picked up fighter levels:
If I start off as warblade in higher levels, I get to pick more higher level maneuvers.
The fact that Improved Draconic wings can only be taken at level 6 also crippled my build.

[Sith_Happens]

It allows me to not catastrophically hit the ground when diving.

You won't catastrophically hit the ground either way.

Turn 1: Diving attack something.

Turn 2: Expend some of your movement for the round to turn in place.

[Sam K]

I think you're overestimating temmenigru's investment. (Improved) Dragon Wings and Improved Flight don't really count since they're already useful on their own and Furious Charge and Diving Charge are just filler*, which leaves Shock Trooper and the halberd being Valorous.

* Filler which can easily be cut in favor of just putting Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush in those slots and saving the trouble of taking Fighter 2-6.

Two feats for flight is pretty expensive, but I suppose you do add in some utility for those feats. However, the original post was because Temmenigru felt the build wasn't effective enough. Spending 2 or 3 feats and a significant part of your WBL on something and becoming really good at it is a decent investment (assuming what you get good at is actually useful). Making the same investment, not feeling that you're good enough at it, while having more cost-effective tools at your disposal seems like a bad investment to me.

But like I said, I acknowledge that pounce is be an ability some people will be very restrictive with, so I should probably just accept that some people will not use it even if it is the most cost-effective tool for a situation.

[Twilightwyrm]

The system simulates reality the best it can. Just because it simplifies the mechanics of real life doesn't mean you can exploit the rules to do ridiculous things such as swimming while flying. The game is made for people to pretend they are creatures of another world and have fun. Not for people to exploit some silly misswording and ruin the game trying to "win". Pounce while diving sounds ridiculous because the whole idea behind double damage is that you use your momentum to deal damage. You can't use your momentum twice.


Then what would you say to a core creature that gets this bonus for three attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonne.htm)? I'm not sure I really buy pouncing from a dive being the incredibly unrealistic thing you're making it out to be. After all, your momentum does not stop after the first swing (since you are holding the blade, it is going to keep the same momentum as your body), so why would extra attacks getting the bonuses from momentum not make sense. Think of it like this: when a knight is mounted on their horse and charging towards a group of foot soldiers, he makes the initial thrust or slash with his sword and downs one. But his horse is still going, so as he turns to strike the next person (second iterative if you want to think of it in game terms), they are also going to be taking the full weight of that charge behind his sword as well. In this case it works the same way with your greatsword and you.

[Temennigru]

Then what would you say to a core creature that gets this bonus for three attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonne.htm)? I'm not sure I really buy pouncing from a dive being the incredibly unrealistic thing you're making it out to be. After all, your momentum does not stop after the first swing (since you are holding the blade, it is going to keep the same momentum as your body), so why would extra attacks getting the bonuses from momentum not make sense. Think of it like this: when a knight is mounted on their horse and charging towards a group of foot soldiers, he makes the initial thrust or slash with his sword and downs one. But his horse is still going, so as he turns to strike the next person (second iterative if you want to think of it in game terms), they are also going to be taking the full weight of that charge behind his sword as well. In this case it works the same way with your greatsword and you.

The fact that you can only make a dive with a piercing weapon tells you that you stab the opponent. You don't slash him.

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o555/Temen-ni-gru/Untitled_zps7zwzafei.png

[Sith_Happens]

The fact that you can only make a dive with a piercing weapon tells you that you stab the opponent. You don't slash him.

And then, if you have Pounce, you stab him again. How, you ask? Very quickly, that's how.:smalltongue:

[Lorddenorstrus]

And then, if you have Pounce, you stab him again. How, you ask? Very quickly, that's how.:smalltongue:

Yeah but we won't win this one. Last time he made a decently optimized archer his group threatened to kick him apparently. Frankly he should use his build as is and do minimal damage. When the rest of his group figures out how to play the game past being "that guy who thought Monk, sorcerer, bard was a genius idea." they might actually be able to survive encounters past lvl 7 or something with out the DMs hand holding. (which apparently isn't happening regardless from that Crusader thread awhile back on him trying to off them.)

We'll play as meant and go through any challenge as needed. They'll start wondering why some monsters seem to be "Impossible" and eventually play in super low tier 4/5 borderline pure role play games or figure out the combat system and make better characters.

[Temennigru]

Yeah but we won't win this one. Last time he made a decently optimized archer his group threatened to kick him apparently. Frankly he should use his build as is and do minimal damage. When the rest of his group figures out how to play the game past being "that guy who thought Monk, sorcerer, bard was a genius idea." they might actually be able to survive encounters past lvl 7 or something with out the DMs hand holding. (which apparently isn't happening regardless from that Crusader thread awhile back on him trying to off them.)

We'll play as meant and go through any challenge as needed. They'll start wondering why some monsters seem to be "Impossible" and eventually play in super low tier 4/5 borderline pure role play games or figure out the combat system and make better characters.

This group is not tier 4/5
We wasted all our money on a boat. That's why we're so weak.

[Lorddenorstrus]

This group is not tier 4/5
We wasted all our money on a boat. That's why we're so weak.

It sounds like more of a super casual environment then. Which is effectively the same thing as low tier, waste of wealth not optimizing fully. Topped off with some of the stories i've recalled from other threads leads me to believe poor tactics are being employed as well.. Thats like self neerfing. On the note of the boat though, isn't there a campaign setting actually where a boat is given to the players for free specifically because the goal is to be a pirate king or something? If the boats that campaign important i'd've said it probably should've been free. Otherwise your WBL is going to be under what it should be for that level.

Anyway, if anything how about you look at the other players characters and try to stay within their bounds of power? I have a similar group im in I had to specifically make my Sorcerer / other random junk (Gestalt) more about being amusingly interesting than a powerful caster. Otherwise I might over shadow the 2 people who chose to play melees and party member #4 my Cohort Troll / Monk whom I ride into battle with as a Dragonwrought Kobold. (Completely not effective, but hearing them laugh when i described me and my Cohort made it worth.)

One of our melee is a Crit charger. (New player he asked, I delivered him that) The other is random crap who will probably be rebuilt once she realizes that the Crit charger was built by me not the owner of said character... Yes it sucks a little knowing you could do more, but instead of that, do less intentionally. So long as the other party members of lower optimization levels are enjoying the game it can't be to bad. They don't need to know you can build characters worth the three or more of them combined from combat effectiveness. They need someone on their level, which you can try to raise closer to your own hopefully..

[Sith_Happens]

We wasted all our money on a boat. That's why we're so weak.

What kind of boat? If it's cool enough I can forgive you.:smalltongue: