Master of the Seikuken: Building an Unarmed Warder

[Red Fel]

Hello. It's time for another exciting build thread. This one is a doozy - it's an attempt to make an unarmed Warder.

First, a bit of explanation of the title:

In the anime History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi, the titular protagonist learns a technique called seikuken. Seikuken, in essence, involves perfect situational awareness of everything within your reach (i.e. your threatened range), coupled with the speed and reflexes to block it.

It looks like this...

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-19-2015/3Oti6D.gif

Or like this...

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/kenichi/images/a/a4/Tumblr_myak1oAxWv1qcsesho3_500.gif/revision/latest?cb=20140825011240
In essence, I want to do the same thing with the Warder's famous "zone of nope." In a rather sub-optimal way, I want to take the Warder's ability to pretty much shut down anything within his range, and limit it primarily to unarmed attacks.

And I want your help building it.

First, some ground rules. Source: PF only. No third-party except for DSP (obviously, because PoW). Races: Any. I'm inclined to lean towards Grippli (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-grippli), because the Agile Tongue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/agile-tongue-grippli) feat gives the ability to make melee touch attacks within 10 feet, which may count as threatened area. But I'm open to other ideas. Levels: 1-20. Class: Warder, at least primarily. Dips are acceptable. Alignment: Any. Cheese: Playable.
Obviously, this build would make reasonable use of Broken Blade maneuvers, which it mercifully receives. Dervish Defender seems to me a reasonable choice for archetype, save that it loses the awesome Iron Tortoise. Alternatively, if using unarmed weapons counts as using "a one-handed weapon in both hands," perhaps Zweihander Sentinel might function, I'm not entirely sure. Unfortunately, Zweihander loses Broken Blade.

In any event, pencils up, and... Begin!

[Azoth]

The technique you used as an example seems better represented by the Extended Defense class ability more so than the infamous "Zone of Nope". This unfortunately doesn't come online later than "Zone of Nope", and has limited used per day.

Still there are a number of ways to go about it, and the disciplines a Warder gains access to offer some good counters to help tide the times where neither Zone of Nope or Extended Defense are available.

Now two feats that are mandatory for your build are Improved Unarmed Strike and Greater Unarmed Strike. This is just to keep damage scaling. Since the character is unarmored, but a Warder gains no way to boost unarmored AC, I am going to suggest aiming for the good old Mithral Chainshirt until Celestial Armor is feesible. I also reccomend the Brawler Enchantment. Your neck slot with be eaten by the obligatory Amulet of Mighty Fists.

You could try making use of Crane Style to help negate hits.

Maybe something like:
Dervish Defender Warder

20 Point Buy:

Str: 18(14+2 racial+2lvlup)
Dex: 17 (15+2enhance)
Con:14
Int: 16 (14+2 enhance)
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

Human:Improved Unarmed Strike
1st: Dodge
Warder1: Two Weapon Fighting
Warder1: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Crane Style
Warder3: Greater Unarmed Strike
5th: Crane Wing
7: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Warder8: Crane Riposte

This gives you a decent defensive Platform to work with. Basically, use dodge and crane style on the same target to get a good AC against them and when they actually get past your AC use a counter to smash them in the face.

After level 8, you use Riposte to smack them for missing you with their first attack, and then can use a counter on a weaker attack to smack them again. Or use Extended Defense to turn it into a full round of smacking everyone for trying to smack you.

You could also Martial Tradition to get Iron Tortoise (Defender of the Realm Tradition) back giving up a discipline you don't want, then take Weapon Group Adaption to make Unarmed Strike a discipline weapon so you can use their counters to punch scorching rays out of the sky.

[Red Fel]

The technique you used as an example seems better represented by the Extended Defense class ability more so than the infamous "Zone of Nope". This unfortunately doesn't come online later than "Zone of Nope", and has limited used per day.

Actually, I see it as a sort of combination of Extended Defense, Defensive Focus, and (to a lesser extent) Aegis. But point taken.


Now two feats that are mandatory for your build are Improved Unarmed Strike and Greater Unarmed Strike. This is just to keep damage scaling.

Makes perfect sense, I agree.


Since the character is unarmored, but a Warder gains no way to boost unarmored AC, I am going to suggest aiming for the good old Mithral Chainshirt until Celestial Armor is feesible. I also reccomend the Brawler Enchantment. Your neck slot with be eaten by the obligatory Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Well, one moment. I have no issue with the character wearing armor. I wanted unarmed, not unarmored. That said, good points, all.


Maybe something like:
Dervish Defender Warder

20 Point Buy:

Str: 18(14+2 racial+2lvlup)
Dex: 17 (15+2enhance)
Con:14
Int: 16 (14+2 enhance)
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

Human:Improved Unarmed Strike
1st: Dodge
Warder1: Two Weapon Fighting
Warder1: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Crane Style
Warder3: Greater Unarmed Strike
5th: Crane Wing
7: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Warder8: Crane Riposte

This gives you a decent defensive Platform to work with. Basically, use dodge and crane style on the same target to get a good AC against them and when they actually get past your AC use a counter to smash them in the face.

After level 8, you use Riposte to smack them for missing you with their first attack, and then can use a counter on a weaker attack to smack them again. Or use Extended Defense to turn it into a full round of smacking everyone for trying to smack you.

You could also Martial Tradition to get Iron Tortoise (Defender of the Realm Tradition) back giving up a discipline you don't want, then take Weapon Group Adaption to make Unarmed Strike a discipline weapon so you can use their counters to punch scorching rays out of the sky.

... I do like it. I do very much like it, indeed.

[Azoth]

I am glad to be of help. Not too sure where to take it after level 8. Also, don't worry too much about your damage, as strikes will keep you competitive with most low/mid op groups.

I suppose from here you could look at reach enhancers and ways to make people provoke AoO's for things they normally wouldn't, just so you can get punch happy.

[Red Fel]

I am glad to be of help. Not too sure where to take it after level 8. Also, don't worry too much about your damage, as strikes will keep you competitive with most low/mid op groups.

I suppose from here you could look at reach enhancers and ways to make people provoke AoO's for things they normally wouldn't, just so you can get punch happy.

When you mentioned Crane Style, it inspired me to take a look at some of the other Style feats. Admittedly, going too far in that direction would likely require me to go into MoMS, which I'd prefer not to do, but it occurs to me that Crane and Warder go rather nicely with a few other styles. For example, it seems that a Warder, with its Int focus, would benefit from Kirin Style and Kirin Strike, and Snake Style and Snake Fang are good for when an enemy attempts to strike you and misses (particularly with Warder's ability to provoke attacks).

But yeah. It seems that the build would be designed around provoking attacks wherever possible, preventing those attacks, and then countering with prejudice. Really, just racking up the AoOs would probably help offset the damage disparity, methinks.

[Azoth]

A Master of Many Styles dip for 2 levels wouldn't be terrible. It also removes the need for IUS and GUS. As a base 1d6 damage is decent for weapon damage, gives you Fuse Styles for 2 styles, and two free prereq ignored style feats.

You could do much worse for 2 levels.

[Elricaltovilla]

Do you want me to jump in here Red, or should I let other people try and help you first?

[Red Fel]

A Master of Many Styles dip for 2 levels wouldn't be terrible. It also removes the need for IUS and GUS. As a base 1d6 damage is decent for weapon damage, gives you Fuse Styles for 2 styles, and two free prereq ignored style feats.

You could do much worse for 2 levels.

True, true. While PF is designed to be less dip-prone, a two-level MoMS dip isn't lethal. It's a solid point.


Do you want me to jump in here Red, or should I let other people try and help you first?

By all means. I was wondering if this thread would grab your attention.

[Elricaltovilla]

By all means. I was wondering if this thread would grab your attention.

Well in that case, I'd probably recommend Dervish Defender Warder into Dragon Fury (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/dragon-fury). Reduced TWF penalties will make you more accurate, Full Power Attack on your Unarmed Strikes will boost your damage significantly, and the bonus to defense will give you more longevity. Something like Dervish Defender Warder 6/Dragon Fury 10/DD Warder 4.

But that's only option number 1. If you're interested in DSP's playtest materials, you've got lots of options for fun with Mithral Current (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dKCPPIpRoR9CZv0A35gLDnXl5itgRufjWTq83BIsMfs/edit) and the feat Flowing Mithral Fist (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EPARqt5jpie03MIXStgFrNK_si6g218bjT4TFbcizPY/edit). Now, this doesn't preclude you using the build above, since you can use a trait to switch out one of your disciplines for Mithral Current, but the thing is that what's really going to make the Seikuken happen is your choice of counters. You want the best counters in the business, and Mithral Current is where those are at.

Your first concern should be counters. You want to focus on attack negation, counterattacks and any tricks you can pull off to capitalize on those.

Broken Blade has Counter Step, Flat-Iron Riposte, Broken Blade Riposte, and Throw the Blade Down.
Thrashing Dragon offers Reflexive Twist, Sun dips low, Reversing Thrust, and Alacrity on Wing.
Mithral Current adds Flowing Creek, Calm the Storm, Disruptive Wave, Ride the Current, Flowing Stream, Mithral Flash, Flowing River and Mithral Lightning Stance, which lets you make a counterattack against anyone that attacks you.

You won't have room for all of these, but you won't be hurting for choices on a defensive build.

Your second concern is your Zone of Nope. This relies on two things, your class level and your native reach. Because Defensive Focus is an addition to your native reach, anything you can do to increase your base reach is going to give you a serious advantage, especially since Defensive Focus doesn't actually increase your reach until level 5 (don't worry, there's errata on the way:smallbiggrin:). Size increases, Longarm spells, anything that can boost your reach is going to make your Seikuken that much more formidable. It's also important to note that your Zone of Nope isn't stationary, it moves with you. So there's a tactical element to it, where you can position yourself to open up more AoO opportunities by moving even in situations you wouldn't normally have to.

Your last concern is Extended Defense. This ability has a lot of potential for cheese, but what you really need to concern yourself with is when to use it. You only get a maximum of 4 uses per day, so activating it at the right time is key.

The list of feats you want will look something like this:

Two Weapon Fighting & Friends
Improved Unarmed Strike
Greater Unarmed Strike (optional with monk or brawler dip)
Weapon Finesse
Deadly Agility
Flowing Mithral Fist

These aren't in any particular order, but all together they give you a lot of stuff to do with your unarmed strikes.

[Azoth]

OK, came up with something relevant.

I have to say, I really like the idea of this build with Mithral Current's Counters and Broken Blade's Strikes/Boosts.

I still feel Mithral Current falls prey to the "This maneuver is a direct upgrade to its little brother from X levels ago" syndrome on its strikes. That is really the only thing holding it back, but it makes it great for snatching certain maneuvers and keeping them relevant. Especially, the draw and attack at close range as if it were a melee attack maneuvers.

[Elricaltovilla]

OK, came up with something relevant.

I have to say, I really like the idea of this build with Mithral Current's Counters and Broken Blade's Strikes/Boosts.

I still feel Mithral Current falls prey to the "This maneuver is a direct upgrade to its little brother from X levels ago" syndrome on its strikes. That is really the only thing holding it back, but it makes it great for snatching certain maneuvers and keeping them relevant. Especially, the draw and attack at close range as if it were a melee attack maneuvers.

What you call a glitch, I call a feature. The stars of Mithral Current were always intended to be the counters, it's based on a martial arts style that was heavily focused on counterattacks, and that plays into the design of the discipline. The presence of a lot of strikes and boosts that are upgrades to previous strikes and boosts is to encourage trading those out and keeping the counters, which age much better.

[Red Fel]

Hoo boy, a lot to go through. Let's see.


Well in that case, I'd probably recommend Dervish Defender Warder into Dragon Fury (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/dragon-fury). Reduced TWF penalties will make you more accurate, Full Power Attack on your Unarmed Strikes will boost your damage significantly, and the bonus to defense will give you more longevity. Something like Dervish Defender Warder 6/Dragon Fury 10/DD Warder 4.

Interesting. Dragon Fury looks a bit like a redundant Dervish Defender PrC, but adds a few items (particularly that Power Attack bit). I could see that working.


But that's only option number 1. If you're interested in DSP's playtest materials, you've got lots of options for fun with Mithral Current (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dKCPPIpRoR9CZv0A35gLDnXl5itgRufjWTq83BIsMfs/edit) and the feat Flowing Mithral Fist (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EPARqt5jpie03MIXStgFrNK_si6g218bjT4TFbcizPY/edit). Now, this doesn't preclude you using the build above, since you can use a trait to switch out one of your disciplines for Mithral Current, but the thing is that what's really going to make the Seikuken happen is your choice of counters. You want the best counters in the business, and Mithral Current is where those are at.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to when Mithral Current makes it out of playtest. I'm feeling comfortably optimistic about it.


Your first concern should be counters. You want to focus on attack negation, counterattacks and any tricks you can pull off to capitalize on those.

Definitely.


Your second concern is your Zone of Nope. This relies on two things, your class level and your native reach. Because Defensive Focus is an addition to your native reach, anything you can do to increase your base reach is going to give you a serious advantage, especially since Defensive Focus doesn't actually increase your reach until level 5 (don't worry, there's errata on the way:smallbiggrin:). Size increases, Longarm spells, anything that can boost your reach is going to make your Seikuken that much more formidable. It's also important to note that your Zone of Nope isn't stationary, it moves with you. So there's a tactical element to it, where you can position yourself to open up more AoO opportunities by moving even in situations you wouldn't normally have to.

Makes sense. As an aside, since I figure you'd know this - does a Grippli with the Agile Tongue feat enjoy extended threatened range, or am I just fooling myself?


The list of feats you want will look something like this:

Two Weapon Fighting & Friends
Improved Unarmed Strike
Greater Unarmed Strike (optional with monk or brawler dip)
Weapon Finesse
Deadly Agility
Flowing Mithral Fist

Makes good sense, and lots of it.

Now, Azoth suggested a MoMS dip, for the unarmed strike feat(s) and for Crane Style. Do you agree with that, or do you suggest otherwise?


OK, came up with something relevant.

What you call a glitch, I call a feature.

I am shockingly okay with this. Right now, I see this character doing three things: Moving into range. Taking lots of AoOs. Performing lots of counters.
In essence, I see this character as more dangerous when it isn't his turn than when it is. And I like it.

[Elricaltovilla]

The monk dip I'd consider a wash, you're not gaining much that you weren't going to be taking anyway, but if you want some free style feats, then it can be worthwhile. It works better if you're starting at higher level and don't actually have to go through the pain of living with monk levels.

As for the Grippli, sadly I don't believe that Agile Tongue gives an actual threatened area. It specifies touch attacks, so its useless unless you're making touch attacks.

[Red Fel]

The monk dip I'd consider a wash, you're not gaining much that you weren't going to be taking anyway, but if you want some free style feats, then it can be worthwhile. It works better if you're starting at higher level and don't actually have to go through the pain of living with monk levels.

As for the Grippli, sadly I don't believe that Agile Tongue gives an actual threatened area. It specifies touch attacks, so its useless unless you're making touch attacks.

Yeah. My concern was that, as much as I like Style feats (and I looked at that document, those Mithral Current Style feats look intriguing), they tend to be a bit situational, not as flexible as maneuvers, and much of what they do can be reproduced with good maneuver selection.

Particularly with regard to the Mithral Current Style feats, I'd like to discuss those a bit more. They seem much more powerful than other Style feats. By way of example, Snapping Turtle Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snapping-turtle-style-combat-style) gives a +1 shield bonus to AC when you have one hand free; its second level, Snapping Turtle Clutch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snapping-turtle-clutch-combat), applies that to CMD and touch AC as well. By comparison, Mithral Current Style's second-level feat, Mithral Current Flow, gives you a +4 dodge bonus to AC when your weapon is sheathed, which necessarily applies to touch AC by way of being a dodge bonus. That's substantial; not only is it a bigger number, and one that Mithral Current Style helps you maintain regularly, but it's also a dodge bonus, as opposed to a shield bonus, which is generally better. Is it just me, or is this a case of "if you plan to use Mithral Current you had bloody well better take these" feats?

[Elricaltovilla]

Yeah. My concern was that, as much as I like Style feats (and I looked at that document, those Mithral Current Style feats look intriguing), they tend to be a bit situational, not as flexible as maneuvers, and much of what they do can be reproduced with good maneuver selection.

Particularly with regard to the Mithral Current Style feats, I'd like to discuss those a bit more. They seem much more powerful than other Style feats. By way of example, Snapping Turtle Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snapping-turtle-style-combat-style) gives a +1 shield bonus to AC when you have one hand free; its second level, Snapping Turtle Clutch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snapping-turtle-clutch-combat), applies that to CMD and touch AC as well. By comparison, Mithral Current Style's second-level feat, Mithral Current Flow, gives you a +4 dodge bonus to AC when your weapon is sheathed, which necessarily applies to touch AC by way of being a dodge bonus. That's substantial; not only is it a bigger number, and one that Mithral Current Style helps you maintain regularly, but it's also a dodge bonus, as opposed to a shield bonus, which is generally better. Is it just me, or is this a case of "if you plan to use Mithral Current you had bloody well better take these" feats?

I wouldn't say that they're necessary, but they are more powerful and more versatile than standard paizo style feats. These were written pretty close to the crane wing nerf, and I may have been a little sore about that.

A +1 shield bonus to AC is honestly a joke. It's Weapon Focus levels of bad. We like our feats to be a bit more useful, but that's also why we're so aggressive about open playtesting. We want to make sure everything works well and works right.

[Red Fel]

I wouldn't say that they're necessary, but they are more powerful and more versatile than standard paizo style feats. These were written pretty close to the crane wing nerf, and I may have been a little sore about that.

A +1 shield bonus to AC is honestly a joke. It's Weapon Focus levels of bad. We like our feats to be a bit more useful, but that's also why we're so aggressive about open playtesting. We want to make sure everything works well and works right.

I quite agree. Bottom line, however, is that I'm a bit reluctant to use material that's still in the playtesting phase, and may be different when finished.

So we're back to basics, and it looks like Dervish Defender Warder into Dragon Fury, grab unarmed feats, TWF feats, Deadly Agility and Weapon Finesse. With respect to the feats, it's my understanding that the unarmed feats will keep my unarmed strikes relevant, TWF will let me tack on more attacks, DA and WF will let me do Dex-to-attack and damage, rather than Str. Dervish Defender gives me TWF for free, Int to AC, AoO on a successful counter, Aegis bonus to shield AC, and we miss out on the late-level damage bonus equal to offhand damage (which is main hand damage, because unarmed) + 1/2 Str. (Would Deadly Agility make that 1/2 Dex, or is it still Str?) Dragon Fury gets us additional TWF boosts, Power Attack while dual wielding (doex Deadly Agility change that, or is it still Str as per PA?), bonus counter, another shield bonus to AC (which I don't believe stacks with the one from Dervish Defender), recovery, and a movement boost.

So, putting it all together... The feats I get. Dervish Defender, I get. Dragon Fury, I kinda get, but I question how Dragon Fury Defense interacts with Shield of Blades, and how Sharp Fang/ Vicious Fang interacts with Deadly Agility.

Another issue raised is the fact that Dex becomes substantially less valuable to a Warder build generally, as you observed in your Warder guide. (Which would be even better if it had archetypes, by the by, but is still awesome and useful.) It becomes more valuable in this build because of the TWF element. The question, then, is whether we can replace Dex-dependence with Int-dependence to keep it a little less MAD. Any thoughts there? Alternatively, do DD and DF function in such a way that the Dex issues are less necessary?

[Elricaltovilla]

I quite agree. Bottom line, however, is that I'm a bit reluctant to use material that's still in the playtesting phase, and may be different when finished.

So we're back to basics, and it looks like Dervish Defender Warder into Dragon Fury, grab unarmed feats, TWF feats, Deadly Agility and Weapon Finesse. With respect to the feats, it's my understanding that the unarmed feats will keep my unarmed strikes relevant, TWF will let me tack on more attacks, DA and WF will let me do Dex-to-attack and damage, rather than Str. Dervish Defender gives me TWF for free, Int to AC, AoO on a successful counter, Aegis bonus to shield AC, and we miss out on the late-level damage bonus equal to offhand damage (which is main hand damage, because unarmed) + 1/2 Str. (Would Deadly Agility make that 1/2 Dex, or is it still Str?) Dragon Fury gets us additional TWF boosts, Power Attack while dual wielding (doex Deadly Agility change that, or is it still Str as per PA?), bonus counter, another shield bonus to AC (which I don't believe stacks with the one from Dervish Defender), recovery, and a movement boost.

So, putting it all together... The feats I get. Dervish Defender, I get. Dragon Fury, I kinda get, but I question how Dragon Fury Defense interacts with Shield of Blades, and how Sharp Fang/ Vicious Fang interacts with Deadly Agility.

Another issue raised is the fact that Dex becomes substantially less valuable to a Warder build generally, as you observed in your Warder guide. (Which would be even better if it had archetypes, by the by, but is still awesome and useful.) It becomes more valuable in this build because of the TWF element. The question, then, is whether we can replace Dex-dependence with Int-dependence to keep it a little less MAD. Any thoughts there? Alternatively, do DD and DF function in such a way that the Dex issues are less necessary?

I'm like 90% sure my guide does go into archetypes, not in great detail, but they're there. Are you using my old guide or the google docs one (check the sig).

Dervish Defenders trade STR/INT focus for DEX/INT focus, twfing benefits more from being dex focused, and the archetype relies on lighter armor and more mobility. Most of the "replace DEX" stuff gets traded out.

Shield of blades and Dragon Fury defense should stack, as Shield of Blades is an improvement to an existing shield bonus, while Dragon Fury Defense just provides an actual shield bonus.

Deadly Agility adds Dex to damage, it isn't increased by two handing, or decreased by off-handing. Always +DEX to damage. More consistent that way:smallamused:.

Sharp Fang and Vicious Fan just increase your damage bonus provided by Power Attack, they don't make any changes to the way you actually wield the weapons, and that wouldn't affect Deadly Agility anyway.

I think that covers everything. Oh, for your Seikuken thing, definitely try to capitalize on Dance of Thrashing Claws.

[Red Fel]

I'm like 90% sure my guide does go into archetypes, not in great detail, but they're there. Are you using my old guide or the google docs one (check the sig).

Whoops, yeah, I was using the old version. Hello, Google Doc version, how are you today?


Dervish Defenders trade STR/INT focus for DEX/INT focus, twfing benefits more from being dex focused, and the archetype relies on lighter armor and more mobility. Most of the "replace DEX" stuff gets traded out.

In other words, "No, you're not swapping out the Dex for Int, stop asking, now Dex up and enjoy pounding face." I get it.


Shield of blades and Dragon Fury defense should stack, as Shield of Blades is an improvement to an existing shield bonus, while Dragon Fury Defense just provides an actual shield bonus.

Ahh, I see the language. Dragon Fury Defense says "gains a +1 shield bonus to his Armor Class." Shield of Blades says "improves her shield bonus to AC." I see the distinction, yeah, that should stack.


Deadly Agility adds Dex to damage, it isn't increased by two handing, or decreased by off-handing. Always +DEX to damage. More consistent that way:smallamused:.

Yeah, I see that part. So, basically, anytime something says to add your Str or a portion thereof to damage, Deadly Agility changes that to Dex?


Sharp Fang and Vicious Fan just increase your damage bonus provided by Power Attack, they don't make any changes to the way you actually wield the weapons, and that wouldn't affect Deadly Agility anyway.

Yeah, I'm just re-reading and remembering that PA does not add Str to damage, but rather calculates bonus damage based upon the type of weapon used. How telling is it that I've been away from PA for too long?


I think that covers everything. Oh, for your Seikuken thing, definitely try to capitalize on Dance of Thrashing Claws.

Definitely. And thanky.

Okay. So if I go with this makeup, it looks something like this.

Seikuken Guy, Human Dervish Defender Warder 10/ Dragon Fury 10



Level
Class
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Feat


1
Warder 1
+1
+2
+0
+2
Defensive Focus, Aegis +1 (10 ft), Two-Weapon Defense
Improved Unarmed Strike1, Two-Weapon Fighting2, Weapon Finesse


2
Warder 2
+2
+3
+0
+3
Armiger's Mark
--


3
Warder 3
+3
+3
+1
+3
Bonus Feat
Deadly Agility, Greater Unarmed Strike2


4
Warder 4
+4
+4
+1
+4
Dervish Defense
--


5
Warder 5
+5
+4
+1
+4
Extended Defense 1/day, Aegis +2
Discipline Focus (Thrashing Dragon)


6
Warder 6
+6/+1
+5
+2
+5
Shield of Blades, Improved Aegis (20 ft)
--


7
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 1
+7/+2
+6
+3
+5
Dragon Fury Training, Dual Fang Focus +1, Sharp Fang
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting


8
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 2
+8/+3
+6
+3
+6
Dance of Thrashing Claws
--


9
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 3
+9/+4
+7
+4
+6
Dragon Fury Defense +1
TBD


10
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 4
+10/+5
+7
+4
+6
Dual Fang Focus +2
--


11
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 5
+11/+6/+1
+8
+5
+7
Vicious Fang
TBD


12
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 6
+12/+7/+2
+8
+5
+7
Dragon Fury Defense +2
--


13
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 7
+13/+8/+3
+9
+6
+7
Dual Fang Focus +3
TBD


14
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 8
+14/+9/+4
+9
+6
+8
Deadly Fang Recovery
--


15
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 9
+15/+10/+5
+10
+7
+8
Dragon Fury Defense +3
TBD


16
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 10
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+7
+8
Dragon War God's Dance, Dual Fang Focus +4
--


17
Warder 7/ Dragon Fury 10
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+7
+8
Adaptive Tactics
TBD


18
Warder 8/ Dragon Fury 10
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+7
+9
Extended Defense 2/day, Bonus Feat
TBD2


19
Warder 9/ Dragon Fury 10
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+8
+9
Improved Armiger's Mark, Aegis +3
TBD


20
Warder 10/ Dragon Fury 10
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+8
+10
Improved Defensive Focus
--


1 Human bonus feat.
2 Class bonus feat.

Maneuver charts have been omitted, because between two classes, that's just a pain.

Is that right? And what do you suggest I add for the TBDs?

[Elricaltovilla]

Whoops, yeah, I was using the old version. Hello, Google Doc version, how are you today?



In other words, "No, you're not swapping out the Dex for Int, stop asking, now Dex up and enjoy pounding face." I get it.



Ahh, I see the language. Dragon Fury Defense says "gains a +1 shield bonus to his Armor Class." Shield of Blades says "improves her shield bonus to AC." I see the distinction, yeah, that should stack.



Yeah, I see that part. So, basically, anytime something says to add your Str or a portion thereof to damage, Deadly Agility changes that to Dex?



Yeah, I'm just re-reading and remembering that PA does not add Str to damage, but rather calculates bonus damage based upon the type of weapon used. How telling is it that I've been away from PA for too long?



Definitely. And thanky.

Okay. So if I go with this makeup, it looks something like this.

Seikuken Guy, Human Dervish Defender Warder 10/ Dragon Fury 10



Level
Class
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Feat


1
Warder 1
+1
+2
+0
+2
Defensive Focus, Aegis +1 (10 ft), Two-Weapon Defense
Improved Unarmed Strike1, Two-Weapon Fighting2, Weapon Finesse


2
Warder 2
+2
+3
+0
+3
Armiger's Mark
--


3
Warder 3
+3
+3
+1
+3
Bonus Feat
Deadly Agility, Greater Unarmed Strike2


4
Warder 4
+4
+4
+1
+4
Dervish Defense
--


5
Warder 5
+5
+4
+1
+4
Extended Defense 1/day, Aegis +2
Discipline Focus (Thrashing Dragon)


6
Warder 6
+6/+1
+5
+2
+5
Shield of Blades, Improved Aegis (20 ft)
--


7
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 1
+7/+2
+6
+3
+5
Dragon Fury Training, Dual Fang Focus +1, Sharp Fang
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting


8
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 2
+8/+3
+6
+3
+6
Dance of Thrashing Claws
--


9
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 3
+9/+4
+7
+4
+6
Dragon Fury Defense +1
TBD


10
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 4
+10/+5
+7
+4
+6
Dual Fang Focus +2
--


11
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 5
+11/+6/+1
+8
+5
+7
Vicious Fang
TBD


12
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 6
+12/+7/+2
+8
+5
+7
Dragon Fury Defense +2
--


13
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 7
+13/+8/+3
+9
+6
+7
Dual Fang Focus +3
TBD


14
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 8
+14/+9/+4
+9
+6
+8
Deadly Fang Recovery
--


15
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 9
+15/+10/+5
+10
+7
+8
Dragon Fury Defense +3
TBD


16
Warder 6/ Dragon Fury 10
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+7
+8
Dragon War God's Dance, Dual Fang Focus +4
--


17
Warder 7/ Dragon Fury 10
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+7
+8
Adaptive Tactics
TBD


18
Warder 8/ Dragon Fury 10
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+7
+9
Extended Defense 2/day, Bonus Feat
TBD2


19
Warder 9/ Dragon Fury 10
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+8
+9
Improved Armiger's Mark, Aegis +3
TBD


20
Warder 10/ Dragon Fury 10
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+8
+10
Improved Defensive Focus
--


1 Human bonus feat.
2 Class bonus feat.

Maneuver charts have been omitted, because between two classes, that's just a pain.

Is that right? And what do you suggest I add for the TBDs?

Your ability to use the table code on this forum fills me with awe and fear.

As for filling in the blanks, you can't go wrong with more TWF feats, Advanced Study is great at higher levels if you have a spare slot (Extra 9th level maneuvers :smallamused:), Martial Charge is amazing but better for more offensively oriented characters, Seize the Opportunity (from the playtest feats) is great for AoOs because you can use more Combat Maneuvers with them (bull rush is especially fun). Take the Blow will let you bodyguard for adjacent allies and can be a decent alternative to using Armiger's Mark. Thrashing Dragon Style is all kinds of fun, as is Broken Blade Style.

The nice thing about Path of War is that there are few trap options, and most of the trap options are still worth considering when compared to 3.5 and Pathfinder's trap options.

[Red Fel]

Your ability to use the table code on this forum fills me with awe and fear.

As it should be. Seriously, though, it's fairly straightforward, just takes patience.


As for filling in the blanks, you can't go wrong with more TWF feats, Advanced Study is great at higher levels if you have a spare slot (Extra 9th level maneuvers :smallamused:), Martial Charge is amazing but better for more offensively oriented characters, Seize the Opportunity (from the playtest feats) is great for AoOs because you can use more Combat Maneuvers with them (bull rush is especially fun). Take the Blow will let you bodyguard for adjacent allies and can be a decent alternative to using Armiger's Mark. Thrashing Dragon Style is all kinds of fun, as is Broken Blade Style.

The nice thing about Path of War is that there are few trap options, and most of the trap options are still worth considering when compared to 3.5 and Pathfinder's trap options.

Setting aside the playtest material (even though it looks pretty awesome), you're right, there's a lot of stuff to work with. At the very least, the PoW feats are awesome, and perhaps some more TWF feats (I suppose I'll have to familiarize myself with PF TWF, I've not yet done so). I think it should be quite manageable.