On giving up Enchantment

[Pippin]

Is there any spell that should be added to the spellbook before giving up Enchantment for the Incantatrix PrC, actually?

[WhamBamSam]

You'll lose the ability to cast the spells you've already scribed as well when you add another banned school.

[ryu]

Is there any spell that should be added to the spellbook before giving up Enchantment for the Incantatrix PrC, actually?

Autohypnosis and mindrape are some of the best in the school. Minor things like heroics are also nice. I wouldn't worry too much though. Even if you somehow manage to find a problem you can't solve with non-enchantment you can just summon or transform into something with the appropriate spell.

Edit: You actually retain access to spells from the incantatrix ban so long as you could cast them before taking it. Sweet eh?

[WhamBamSam]

Edit: You actually retain access to spells from the incantatrix ban so long as you could cast them before taking it. Sweet eh?I guess I could see where you're coming from with that, but it seems sketchy to me. The language is not very precise.


Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.I suppose you could argue that "not available" denotes an inability to scribe them into your spellbook, but it seems more natural to read it as an outright inability to cast such spells with your Wizard casting.

[Draz74]

I guess I could see where you're coming from with that, but it seems sketchy to me. The language is not very precise.

I suppose you could argue that "not available" denotes an inability to scribe them into your spellbook, but it seems more natural to read it as an outright inability to cast such spells with your Wizard casting.

You're talking about banned schools in general. The other people in this thread are talking specifically about the banned school in the Incantatrix Prestige Class.

[WhamBamSam]

You're talking about banned schools in general. The other people in this thread are talking specifically about the banned school in the Incantatrix Prestige Class.Right, but that banned school is exactly the same as any other apart from taking it after the first level of Wizard.
Focused Studies (Ex): At 1st level, the incantatrix gives up a school of magic so as to focus more on the remaining schools. She must choose a school of magic other than abjuration or divination as a prohibited school. This prohibited school is in addition to any others already chosen due to school specialization. Thus, a specialized wizard taking this prestige class has three prohibited schools instead of two.

[ryu]

Right, but that banned school is exactly the same as any other apart from taking it after the first level of Wizard.

Not quite. There are many school bannings that happen with prestige classing. This one has the specific allowance of using spells already castable before taking that specific ban. I could dig up specific sources, but don't have the physical book on me right now. I will note that I'm working from the precedence of forum consensus on the ruling though.

[darkbuu_1]

The incantatrix can never again learn spells from that prohibited school or schools. She can still use the prohibited spells she knew prior to becoming an incantatrix, including using items that are activated by spell completion or spell trigger.

I don't really have anything to help with the actual topic but I have the particular incantatrix quote just here.

[eggynack]

Not quite. There are many school bannings that happen with prestige classing. This one has the specific allowance of using spells already castable before taking that specific ban. I could dig up specific sources, but don't have the physical book on me right now. I will note that I'm working from the precedence of forum consensus on the ruling though.


I don't really have anything to help with the actual topic but I have the particular incantatrix quote just here.
I think you two are thinking of the older magic of faerun version of the class, as opposed to the newer player's guide to faerun version.

[WhamBamSam]

Not quite. There are many school bannings that happen with prestige classing. This one has the specific allowance of using spells already castable before taking that specific ban. I could dig up specific sources, but don't have the physical book on me right now. I will note that I'm working from the precedence of forum consensus on the ruling though.I've figured out where the disconnect is after some book diving. The 3.0 version in Magic of Faerun makes that allowance, but the 3.5 version in PGtF (the text for which I quoted in my previous post) does not.

EDIT: Swordsaged, or Celerity'd, or whatever.

[Pippin]

I think you two are thinking of the older magic of faerun version of the class, as opposed to the newer player's guide to faerun version.

I've figured out where the disconnect is after some book diving. The 3.0 version in Magic of Faerun makes that allowance, but the 3.5 version in PGtF (the text for which I quoted in my previous post) does not.

EDIT: Swordsaged, or Celerity'd, or whatever.
If that 3.0 bit had been revised, WotC most likely would have specified so somewhere in the 3.5 revision. Reversing it without pointing it out is unlikely.

[WhamBamSam]

If that 3.0 bit had been revised, WotC most likely would have specified so somewhere in the 3.5 revision. Reversing it without pointing it out is unlikely.That's not how it works. There's a 3.5 version, so the 3.0 version might as well not exist.

[Pippin]

That's not how it works. There's a 3.5 version, so the 3.0 version might as well not exist.
Sure, anyways that's not what this thread is about. Let's suppose you guys are mistaken and actually tackle the question I asked in the OP.


Autohypnosis and mindrape are some of the best in the school. Minor things like heroics are also nice. I wouldn't worry too much though. Even if you somehow manage to find a problem you can't solve with non-enchantment you can just summon or transform into something with the appropriate spell.
Yes, mindrape is awesome! I couldn't find a spell named autohypnosis though, only a skill. :smalleek:

[eggynack]

Sure, anyways that's not what this thread is about. Let's suppose you guys are mistaken and actually tackle the question I asked in the OP.

The charm and dominate line, mostly. That's the source of most of the utility you wouldn't be able to pick up from other schools. Mind rape is obviously nice, but it struggles here against the fact that it's so high level, given that you need to know the spell before entering the class.

[Zombulian]

Power Word: Pain is incredible at low levels. And I mean like, really low levels.

[Sith_Happens]

Mind rape is obviously nice, but it struggles here against the fact that it's so high level, given that you need to know the spell before entering the class.

Wizards know every spell in their spellbook regardless of whether they can cast them yet.

My recommendations if you want to be comprehensive:

The entire Charm line (duh).
The entire Dominate line (duh).
Suggestion (duh).
Hypnotism (against a charmed target within the HD limit this is basically Suggestion++).
Geas, Lesser and regular.
Heroism, regular and Greater.
Otto's Irresistible Dance.
Maddening Scream (basically a slightly different Irresistible Dance).
Hesitate (make something take only move actions for the next round as an immediate action).
Entice Gift.
Ray of Stupidity, a.k.a. Ray of Instakilling Animals and Many Magical Beasts.
Ray of Dizziness (single-target Slow with no save).
The Rebuke line from Spell Compendium, plus Wrathful Castigation.
Freezing Glance.
Cloak of Hate, just for the lulz.
Familial Geas.
Power Word Sicken, mainly to use against things you Planar Bind and don't feel like dealing fairly with.

[Pippin]

Wizards know every spell in their spellbook regardless of whether they can cast them yet.

My recommendations if you want to be comprehensive:

The entire Charm line (duh).
The entire Dominate line (duh).
Suggestion (duh).
Hypnotism (against a charmed target within the HD limit this is basically Suggestion++).
Geas, Lesser and regular.
Heroism, regular and Greater.
Otto's Irresistible Dance.
Maddening Scream (basically a slightly different Irresistible Dance).
Hesitate (make something take only move actions for the next round as an immediate action).
Entice Gift.
Ray of Stupidity, a.k.a. Ray of Instakilling Animals and Many Magical Beasts.
Ray of Dizziness (single-target Slow with no save).
The Rebuke line from Spell Compendium, plus Wrathful Castigation.
Freezing Glance.
Cloak of Hate, just for the lulz.
Familial Geas.
Power Word Sicken, mainly to use against things you Planar Bind and don't feel like dealing fairly with.
Wow thanks, that looks quite comprehensive.

I just read the description of programmed amnesia (SpC), and that made me wonder if mindrape didn't actually get its own revision. Both descriptions use almost the same terms, but programmed amnesia isn't as absolute as mindrape, its casting time is much longer, and it has a gp cost. It doesn't have the evil descriptor, though.

[ryu]

Wow thanks, that looks quite comprehensive.

I just read the description of programmed amnesia (SpC), and that made me wonder if mindrape didn't actually get its own revision. Both descriptions use almost the same terms, but programmed amnesia isn't as absolute as mindrape, its casting time is much longer, and it has a gp cost. It doesn't have the evil descriptor, though.

That would be because it's the ''good'' mindrape. I don't bother with it because you can cast evil spells without instantly changing alignment and the amnesia is basically objectively worse on a mechanical level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The 3.5 Incantatrix in Player's Guide to Faerun does not allow you to continue casting spells from your prohibited school that you learned prior to taking the class. The 3.0 Incantatrix in Magic of Faerun did allow you to continue casting spells from your prohibited school that you learned prior to taking the class, but this is no longer the case. When you learned a given spell from your prohibited school is absolutely irrelevant, if it's in a prohibited school you cannot cast it via the class that has it prohibited, no exceptions.

[Karnith]

I just read the description of programmed amnesia (SpC), and that made me wonder if mindrape didn't actually get its own revision. Both descriptions use almost the same terms, but programmed amnesia isn't as absolute as mindrape, its casting time is much longer, and it has a gp cost. It doesn't have the evil descriptor, though.
It's also permanent (albeit unable to be dispelled) rather than instantaneous, which can be a downer.

[Sith_Happens]

The 3.5 Incantatrix in Player's Guide to Faerun does not allow you to continue casting spells from your prohibited school that you learned prior to taking the class. The 3.0 Incantatrix in Magic of Faerun did allow you to continue casting spells from your prohibited school that you learned prior to taking the class, but this is no longer the case. When you learned a given spell from your prohibited school is absolutely irrelevant, if it's in a prohibited school you cannot cast it via the class that has it prohibited, no exceptions.

Which the OP has asked us to ignore for the purposes of this thread.

[Psyren]

Which the OP has asked us to ignore for the purposes of this thread.

If he's using houserules already though, why not just ask his GM not to ban the third school at all and avoid the question entirely?

[dascarletm]

If he's using houserules already though, why not just ask his GM not to ban the third school at all and avoid the question entirely?

If he's willing to steal a candy bar why not just steal $100?

[Psyren]

If he's willing to steal a candy bar why not just steal $100?

Exactly, thief either way.

Oh, you're being sarcastic.

But while on the surface this may appear to be merely a question of degrees, it's pretty clear that the designers don't want you "half-banning" anymore, hence the update from 3.0 to 3.5. If a player wants to get around this, I'd rather them come at me honestly and just say "I think three schools is excessive" rather than throw out the errata entirely.

[Pippin]

I'd rather them come at me honestly and just say "I think three schools is excessive" rather than throw out the errata entirely.
1 entire school is excessive, I can't imagine 3... :smallfrown:

I would never specialize, and I thought / it was my understanding that it was okay to spare one or two spells before banning an entire school.

[ZamielVanWeber]

1 entire school is excessive, I can't imagine 3... :smallfrown:

I would never specialize, and I thought / it was my understanding that it was okay to spare one or two spells before banning an entire school.

Under 3.5 incantatrix rules no (that is the only way to get a banned school after first level, so its rule are paramount).

[Optimator]

Wizards know every spell in their spellbook regardless of whether they can cast them yet.

My recommendations if you want to be comprehensive:

The entire Charm line (duh).
The entire Dominate line (duh).
Suggestion (duh).
Hypnotism (against a charmed target within the HD limit this is basically Suggestion++).
Geas, Lesser and regular.
Heroism, regular and Greater.
Otto's Irresistible Dance.
Maddening Scream (basically a slightly different Irresistible Dance).
Hesitate (make something take only move actions for the next round as an immediate action).
Entice Gift.
Ray of Stupidity, a.k.a. Ray of Instakilling Animals and Many Magical Beasts.
Ray of Dizziness (single-target Slow with no save).
The Rebuke line from Spell Compendium, plus Wrathful Castigation.
Freezing Glance.
Cloak of Hate, just for the lulz.
Familial Geas.
Power Word Sicken, mainly to use against things you Planar Bind and don't feel like dealing fairly with.
A fantastic list. I was about to do my list but this is basically it. Enchantment has a lot of winners but the school's flaws are widely known. I always recommend an Enchanter become a dispel-specialist as well :p but that's not what the thread is about, is it?

Lots of the bets ones, like Irresistible Dance, Maddening Scream, and Programmed Amnesia come late enough that no Incantatrix would have them scribed. Wait, Wizards can scribe spells that are too high level to cast, right? Can an Incatatrix scribe all the baller spells at low level and cast them later, or do they have to be "castable" to be retained after the school drop?

[dascarletm]

Exactly, thief either way.

Oh, you're being sarcastic.

But while on the surface this may appear to be merely a question of degrees, it's pretty clear that the designers don't want you "half-banning" anymore, hence the update from 3.0 to 3.5. If a player wants to get around this, I'd rather them come at me honestly and just say "I think three schools is excessive" rather than throw out the errata entirely.
Moreso joking than sarcastic...:smalltongue:

That's a fair point, but I think there is value in the middle-ground of 3.0's half-ban. Their group may feel this way too.

I suppose I've contributed to the derailment enough though. If you add a spell to a spellbook that is above your available levels to cast does it count as "known?"

[Sith_Happens]

If you add a spell to a spellbook that is above your available levels to cast does it count as "known?"

Yup. Thank you, Player's Handbook glossary.