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MrStabby
2015-04-19, 07:14 PM
So following some discussion about adding presteige classes to 5th and the best way to do it I was taken by the suggestion that they should be something like a 3 level dip.

My vision for these is that they are classes that are available mid/late game tied to a faction in the campaign. As late classes their 3 levels will be of a power that corresponds to those 11th/12th level abilities that most characters would be giving up to get these.

Whist presteige classes could be appropriate for any faction I have mocked up a couple for the factions in the PHB.

Emerald enclave
Requirement - high enough reputation with the enclave.


Level 1
You gain the spellcasting ability and your spells known per level advances as if you had multiclassed as a cleric or druid. You chose any two spells from the druid spell list at a level for which you have spell slots. You know these spells at all times. Each time you gain a level of any class you may swap one of these spells for another on the same list. Wisdom is the casting ability for these spells.

Level 2
You may cast speak with plants, Jump, Barkskin, Pant Growth and water breathing at will.

Level 3
First or second level spells with a casting time of 1 action may be cast as a bonus action.



Lords Alliance
Requirement- High Enough Reputation with the Alliance

Level 1
You gain +1 hitpoint per character level. Chose an damage type from fire, lightning, thunder, poison, radiant and cold; you gain resistance to this damage type.

Level 2
Whenever one of your damage dice from a weapon attack rolls its highest possible number you may add a further point of bludgeoning damage to the attack. You gain advantage on all attacks of opportunity you make.

Level 3
Whenever you inflict a critical hit the target must make a constitution save (dc 10 + your strength + proficiency) or be stunned until the end of their next turn.


Harper Scout
Requirement - High enough reputation with the Harpers

Level 1
You gain resistance to all damage from and advantage on all saves against spells from the schools of illusion, enchantment and transmuation. You may lean a cantrip from any spell list. Your spell slots progress as if you had multiclassed into a full casting class.

Level 2
You gain resistance to all damage from and advantage on all saves against spells from the schools of Evocation, Necromancy and Abjuration. Whenever you would make a save based on Charisma, Wisdom and Intelligence you may use the highest of these statistics.

Level 3
You are immune to divination - any attempts to use magic to discern any information about you will return the information (or misinformation) of your choice. You gain knowledge of two skills of your choice. Whenever you cast a spell from the school of illusion or enchantment you count it as having been cast from a slot one level higher than it was.



Does this seem to work as a concept? How do these seem power-wise given that you would expect them to come online at levels 11 to 13?

Samhaim
2015-04-20, 02:23 AM
So following some discussion about adding presteige classes to 5th and the best way to do it I was taken by the suggestion that they should be something like a 3 level dip.

My vision for these is that they are classes that are available mid/late game tied to a faction in the campaign. As late classes their 3 levels will be of a power that corresponds to those 11th/12th level abilities that most characters would be giving up to get these.



So, someone would give up a class feature for a prestige class feature?

MrStabby
2015-04-20, 03:44 AM
So, someone would give up a class feature for a prestige class feature?

Well they take these classes instead of class levels in the PHB classes. The power level is intended to represent the fact that players are having to sacrifice the higher level abilities of their class to get these levels.

Samhaim
2015-04-20, 05:17 AM
I think I am getting a rough idea of what your aim is. I sincerely do not dislike the idea of prestige classes outright, but I am not sure they fit into the edition. While I am not convinced your idea would reach the same results as it did in 3e, it may incur in the risk of making the base classes mere stepping stones for the prestige ones. The idea of basing them on factions should prevent most of the abuses, though. One way this would work (but it would need very careful care and attentions) is: instead of touching the class system, integrate the concept as alternative rewards, like mentioned in the DMG. This would somewhat limit how powerful that abilities might be, but to make an example: Emerald enclave reputation would give spell casting right? Well so do wands and staves. By utilizing that as concept you might make a feature similar in scope and power that would not interfere with class balance more that any object. They might deserve more power that any mere magic item due to the reputation requirement, but it would be well deserved.

This is how I would do it, at least. Hope it helps

MrStabby
2015-04-20, 08:12 AM
I think one of the things that was bugging me about 5th edition was the lack of options. You get the classes and the archetypes and whilst I generally think the classes are pretty well balanced I think the archetypes have a huge variance in power such that too many characters end up identical.

The thing that I feel narrows this down the most is that multiclassing is often so difficult. The abilities you get at higher levels are often very important and delaying them can really hurt. I had hoped that by giving an alternative path to some of the higher level abilities people would explore the hundreds of thousands of multi class options out there and have a more diverse range of characterful builds. There are some already very strong multi-class options out there and I think the trick would be to develop features that don't compliment those already powerful options.

For example the emerald enclave class helps reduce the pain of multiclassing casters. If you want a ranger-druid the multiclassing rules don't advance your spells known, just spell slots. Whist I strongly believe that there should be some limitations here I do think it is so tight that you would never see, for example, a multiclass cleric druid.

I also wanted a class that would add a real feel of the wild to other classes. If you wanted to be a fighter protecting the wild then this would let you be an Eldritch Knight and allow you to use your spell slots to learn 3rd and 4th level druid spells with this class as well as granting you the at-will abilities to roll-play this type of character with mechanical support.

Samhaim
2015-04-21, 04:45 AM
I think one of the things that was bugging me about 5th edition was the lack of options. You get the classes and the archetypes and whilst I generally think the classes are pretty well balanced I think the archetypes have a huge variance in power such that too many characters end up identical.

The thing that I feel narrows this down the most is that multiclassing is often so difficult. The abilities you get at higher levels are often very important and delaying them can really hurt. I had hoped that by giving an alternative path to some of the higher level abilities people would explore the hundreds of thousands of multi class options out there and have a more diverse range of characterful builds. There are some already very strong multi-class options out there and I think the trick would be to develop features that don't compliment those already powerful options.

For example the emerald enclave class helps reduce the pain of multiclassing casters. If you want a ranger-druid the multiclassing rules don't advance your spells known, just spell slots. Whist I strongly believe that there should be some limitations here I do think it is so tight that you would never see, for example, a multiclass cleric druid.

I also wanted a class that would add a real feel of the wild to other classes. If you wanted to be a fighter protecting the wild then this would let you be an Eldritch Knight and allow you to use your spell slots to learn 3rd and 4th level druid spells with this class as well as granting you the at-will abilities to roll-play this type of character with mechanical support.

I see, but, as you know, I am very good with balancing, hence my opinion might not be too useful. It might be risky to expand a class' spell list (especially if it grants spells like heat metal). But, couldn't you reach the same result by making appropriate archetypes?

MrStabby
2015-04-21, 10:04 AM
My reason for not doing an archetype is a bit difficult to pin down but there are a couple of things.

Take the emerald enclave PrC as an example. It is something that you can incorporate into other classes to characterise your commitment to Nature, both casting and martial classes. No reason that this couldn't be an archetype by itself though. The problem is that if you make this an archetype of another class you then cannot multi-class with that class and this class. To avoid this you then have to make this an entire new class.

So you end up with a new class, by itself not a problem, but as you are wanting something that people can take to show they are a "Nature Rogue" a "Nature Battlemaster" or a "Nature Monk" you have to find a set of abilities that compliments all of the other classes well and few abilities that are redundant. Trying to fill out 20 levels of this is then very difficult.

So ruling out 20 levels you are left with a class that you can take for a few levels with a strong but narrow theme designed to be taken in conjunction with other classes. This is basically what I ended up with but I called it a prestige class.



I do see your point about expanding a classes spell list and it could be risky. I think that instead of giving people simply the druid spells maybe there could be a smaller specific list from which they chose their spells. For example giving a lightning sorcerer call lightning would be powerful (actually I think it would be pretty reasonable - you take a specific class path, a less than ideal element type, sacrificing your higher level features to get a few new spells and other bonuses - it seems a reasonable trade, at least at first glance).

DanyBallon
2015-04-21, 10:43 AM
The best way, in my opinion, to handle organisation prestige class would be to give out boon when you reach certain treshold within the organisation. This way, it's easy to adapt to any classes, don't cost you a feat or ASI and don't mess up with you class progression.