Limited Wish

[Starchild7309]

OK so I have player who got himself in a sticky situation at the end of the session last time. He is currently with a Demon Lord who wishes to make him her concubine. She separated him from his group and he has told me that he wants to use limited wish to Planeshift away from her. This is where my questions come in:

1: As a sorcerer can he use planeshift to mimic a divine version of the spell or is he stuck with the wiz/sorc version that can't be cast with limited wish?

2. Since Planeshift requires a focus tuned to the plane you want to shift to, is he required to have that? The group had to purchase one previously, however the cleric currently has it not the sorcerer. The previous focus for where he wants to go to is listed as 10,000 gp.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or answers.

[Werephilosopher]

1: As a sorcerer can he use planeshift to mimic a divine version of the spell or is he stuck with the wiz/sorc version that can't be cast with limited wish?

He can use the cleric version.


2. Since Planeshift requires a focus tuned to the plane you want to shift to, is he required to have that? The group had to purchase one previously, however the cleric currently has it not the sorcerer. The previous focus for where he wants to go to is listed as 10,000 gp.

Pretty sure limited wish negates the need for material components. I'm not sure how the focus has a listed price of 10k, though, since it isn't given in the plane shift description.

[Starchild7309]

I'm not sure how the focus has a listed price of 10k, though, since it isn't given in the plane shift description.

We are playing through a premade campaign and that particular item and a few other foci for different parts of the abyss are listed with prices. I see that in limited wish if it is an expensive material component than it must be provided, but does not say anything about an expensive focus.

[Werephilosopher]

We are playing through a premade campaign and that particular item and a few other foci for different parts of the abyss are listed with prices. I see that in limited wish if it is an expensive material component than it must be provided, but does not say anything about an expensive focus.

Hmm, I missed the part about providing expensive material components. In that case, he probably needs the focus.

[JDL]

As per RAW, there is no cost given for the focus in question. Therefore, unless you are house-ruling that the focus is expensive, the player shouldn't need to provide the focus for this spell any more than he would need to provide a tiny bag and a small candle for Summon Monster or a piece of cured leather for Mage Armor. Note that the spell specifically says "When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component." Limited Wish only has Components: V, S, XP and the previous qualifier. Focuses are not required by RAW.

Frankly it sounds like the player has come up with a perfectly rules legal and creative solution to your encounter. Refusing to let him use it is simply punishing him for being clever enough to find a loophole in your trap.

[Starchild7309]

Frankly it sounds like the player has come up with a perfectly rules legal and creative solution to your encounter. Refusing to let him use it is simply punishing him for being clever enough to find a loophole in your trap.

He may have and I am not punishing him. I was asking a question as the players I play with are extremely picky with the rules. They are not the type to take a mistake that benefits them. They make sure to point it out and do it as the rules say. I am just checking my facts before the next session.

He was warned to stay away from this particular demon lord and he ignored that warning. If he has a way to keep himself from harm that's all for the better. I really don't want to have to make him reroll this late in the campaign anyway if it can be avoided. I want my players to succeed and surprise me. I get to enjoyment out of killing them or punishing them.

My only concern was that in looking this up PF doesn't allow for the sorc to use the divine version since the arcane is part of his spell list...at least from what I have read, and since this is 3.5 I couldn't find a definitive answer anywhere. Also, since by raw, the focus in this campaign from dragon magazine has a price of 10k, I thought I should ask about the focus. The explanation is that is given in the adventure is that since they are in the abyss and they are trying to get to a particular layer and some layers are harder to get to than others, the focus that would bring them to the particular layer they desire is more rare and therefore expensive.

[torrasque666]

As per RAW, there is no cost given for the focus in question. Therefore, unless you are house-ruling that the focus is expensive, the player shouldn't need to provide the focus for this spell any more than he would need to provide a tiny bag and a small candle for Summon Monster or a piece of cured leather for Mage Armor. Note that the spell specifically says "When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component." Limited Wish only has Components: V, S, XP and the previous qualifier. Focuses are not required by RAW.

A focus's cost has been supplied by the source material though, at least for the specific area/plane. He's running a premade, and the premade has given a price for the specific focus, and apparently a quite steep one at that. However, Limited Wish doesn't include foci in that limitation, unless foci fall under material components(as they damn well should)

[WeaselGuy]

Ok, so, here's my understanding of the situation. Player is on Plane (Demon). Plane (Demon) required 10k gp focus to get there. Player wants to leave Plane (Demon) and go to a new plane. Does Plane (Not Demon) require the same focus, or a focus of equal value to Plane Shift there? Or does it require a different focus to get there, and is that focus a different price than the one it took to get to Plane (Demon)?

[Chronikoce]

Same question as last person. Where is your player trying to go? If they are in the Abyss they should be able to go to the material plane without a specific focus right? I mean presumably most of the gear came from there and the player may even have a token of some sort from their home or family that could assist with meeting any focus requirement that the module has implemented.

[Douglas]

The focus required depends only on your destination plane, not the plane you start on.

By strict RAW Limited Wish does not require the focus of a duplicated spell no matter how costly it is, because a focus is not technically a material component and Limited Wish only specifies needing high value material components. Thus, the player's move is legal and he gets to the plane he wants at the cost of a 7th level spell and 300 xp. He arrives 5d100 miles off target, as per Plane Shift, but is at least on that plane. This is probably only a minor problem, as I expect he has access to Teleport. At the very least, he could cast Limited Wish again to duplicate Teleport.

If you rule that a focus is considered a material component for things like Limited Wish's requirements for spell duplication, the player would still be able to escape by going to some other plane instead. The focus for Plane Shift is not specified as valuable in general, so for most planes it is of negligible value, assumed to be in any spell component pouch, and not required for Limited Wish.

[Starchild7309]

Currently the player was planeshift ed to Pazunia. The first layer of the abyss. He is trying to get back to the Wells of darkness, a different layer of the same plane. The reason for the pricey foci is so that plane shift takes you to the correct layer. My understanding is that all layers of the abyss are part of the plane of the abyss and therefore an unfocused planeshift could potentially put the player on almost any layer not the one he wants necessarily. Am I understanding that correctly?

[Segev]

Not by the RAW, which specify that you go to the plane you desire but a few d100 miles off from the desired location. Since layers of planes are more than the maximum distance "off" that the spell can generate, it can't put you on a random layer barring aditional rules.

The foci might be to get to the Abyss at all, or to get past some sort of security, or to bypass the "off by a few d100 miles" thing...?

[Starchild7309]

Ok so from Dungeon magazine adventure, wells of Darkness, this is the section I am going by.

"Particularly common in the Broken Reach marketplace are the metal rods used as a material component for plane shifting to different layers of the Abyss. Rods for relatively well known layers such as Pazunia, Demonwebs, Gaping Maw, Thanatos, & Shendilavri sell for 3000 gp. Rods for more obscure layers such as Twelvetrees, Shedaklah, & Androlynne sell for 9000 gp. Rods for truly remote areas such as Dreaming Gulf, Blood Shallows, & Zionyn sell for 15000 gp each. Certain rods are particularly rare, as the Abyss itself resists allowing travel to its deepest and most important layers. This includes layers like Ulgurshek, Woeful Escarand, and the Wells of Darkness cost 40,000 gp each."


So that's directly from the adventure in Dungeon Magazine. July 2007. So after reading that does it mean anything in this case?

[Bronk]

I'm away from my books right now, but isn't there a well known portal to the Wells of Darkness on Pazunia that the player could teleport to instead of plane shifting?

[Starchild7309]

I'm away from my books right now, but isn't there a well known portal to the Wells of Darkness on Pazunia that the player could teleport to instead of plane shifting?

There is but it requires a key. Pit of prisoners I believe it's called. The keys are minor artifacts that are teeth of "someone". I am away from books also.

*edit* you need the key to avoid being shunted to a random well and taking damage. If you have the key the pit allows you to appear at the exact well the key is tuned to unharmed.

[Bronk]

There is but it requires a key. Pit of prisoners I believe it's called. The keys are minor artifacts that are teeth of "someone". I am away from books also.

Bummer about the keys. What I was looking at just said you needed to bring a prisoner with you, anyone you were firmly intending to leave behind once you got there. Still, finding one of the teeth-keys could be a mini-quest during the player's escape, if you wanted.

Edit: Checked FCII... Looks like Pazunia's portals generally don't have a key to them, plus there's an entrance to the Grand Abyss that he/she could hop into, he/she could hop a ride on a ship on the River Styx, and he/she might be able to find an entrance to the Infinite Staircase as well.

[Douglas]

Ok so from Dungeon magazine adventure, wells of Darkness, this is the section I am going by.

"Particularly common in the Broken Reach marketplace are the metal rods used as a material component for plane shifting to different layers of the Abyss. Rods for relatively well known layers such as Pazunia, Demonwebs, Gaping Maw, Thanatos, & Shendilavri sell for 3000 gp. Rods for more obscure layers such as Twelvetrees, Shedaklah, & Androlynne sell for 9000 gp. Rods for truly remote areas such as Dreaming Gulf, Blood Shallows, & Zionyn sell for 15000 gp each. Certain rods are particularly rare, as the Abyss itself resists allowing travel to its deepest and most important layers. This includes layers like Ulgurshek, Woeful Escarand, and the Wells of Darkness cost 40,000 gp each."


So that's directly from the adventure in Dungeon Magazine. July 2007. So after reading that does it mean anything in this case?
Doesn't change anything about my answer. Strict RAW, Limited Wish gets him where he wants to go (plus or minus 5d100 miles). If you rule that focuses are included in Limited Wish's material components requirement, which would be reasonable but a house rule, then it can get him out of his current predicament but he'll need to pick some other plane outside of the Abyss to go to, or a layer of the Abyss that he does have the focus for. In that case, reuniting with the party will require either the party coming to him or him acquiring his own focus.

[Sith_Happens]

My only concern was that in looking this up PF doesn't allow for the sorc to use the divine version since the arcane is part of his spell list...

Cleric Plane Shift is a non-Wizard/Sorcerer spell of 5th level or lower, which is one of the types you can choose to duplicate.


Currently the player was planeshift ed to Pazunia. The first layer of the abyss. He is trying to get back to the Wells of darkness, a different layer of the same plane. The reason for the pricey foci is so that plane shift takes you to the correct layer. My understanding is that all layers of the abyss are part of the plane of the abyss and therefore an unfocused planeshift could potentially put the player on almost any layer not the one he wants necessarily. Am I understanding that correctly?

Not quite; Plane Shift normally always puts on you on the first layer of a given plane.


Edit: Checked FCII... Looks like Pazunia's portals generally don't have a key to them, plus there's an entrance to the Grand Abyss that he/she could hop into, he/she could hop a ride on a ship on the River Styx, and he/she might be able to find an entrance to the Infinite Staircase as well.

OP is running an adventure path that's probably the source of the key requirement.

[Werephilosopher]

My only concern was that in looking this up PF doesn't allow for the sorc to use the divine version since the arcane is part of his spell list...at least from what I have read, and since this is 3.5 I couldn't find a definitive answer anywhere.

The Pathfinder version of limited wish wouldn't let a sorcerer cast plane shift, but the 3.5 version would.

[Bronk]

OP is running an adventure path that's probably the source of the key requirement.

Just throwing out ideas.

[Sith_Happens]

The Pathfinder version of limited wish wouldn't let a sorcerer cast plane shift, but the 3.5 version would.

I see no part of


Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

that precludes duplicating Plane Shift.

[Werephilosopher]

I see no part of ~text~ that precludes duplicating Plane Shift.

Plane shift is a sorcerer/wizard spell. It is available to clerics as a 5th-level spell, but it still isn't a "non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower."

[Crake]

Plane shift is a sorcerer/wizard spell. It is available to clerics as a 5th-level spell, but it still isn't a "non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower."

Incorrect, Plane Shift is a Sorcerer/Wizard spell and and 5th level cleric spell, aka a non-sorcerer/wizard spell. It is both at the same time, and thus qualifies as either.

[Werephilosopher]

cleric spell, aka a non-sorcerer/wizard spell

Hm. I guess it depends on if you read "non-" as pertaining to "sorcerer/wizard" or "sorcerer/wizard spell."

[Crake]

Hm. I guess it depends on if you read "non-" as pertaining to "sorcerer/wizard" or "sorcerer/wizard spell."

Fair point, now that you put it that way, I can see how the reading could go the other way. I've always taken it to mean a spell on another spell list, which feels like the intuitive answer, but even then, at the same time, that could be "A spell not on the sorcerer wizard spell list of 5th level or lower" or "A spell on a list other than the sorcerer wizard spell list of 5th level or lower" which comes down to the same issue, which way do you read it.

[Sith_Happens]

Fair point, now that you put it that way, I can see how the reading could go the other way. I've always taken it to mean a spell on another spell list, which feels like the intuitive answer, but even then, at the same time, that could be "A spell not on the sorcerer wizard spell list of 5th level or lower" or "A spell on a list other than the sorcerer wizard spell list of 5th level or lower" which comes down to the same issue, which way do you read it.

The 3.5 is actually less ambiguous about this, surprisingly enough:


Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.

Incidentally, I'm pretty darn sure that if Paizo meant "non-sorcerer/wizard spell" to mean "spell that isn't on the sorcerer/wizard list" they would have issued an errata or FAQ by now saying so.

[the_insomniac]

PEOPLE PEOPLE PLEASE READ THE PLAYER'S HANDBOOK! i have found SO many threads lately with people thinking that they have a fork for every plane in their scp. THEY DON'T! if you look in the class spell lists, you'll see a little "f" after the name of some spells, including PLANE SHIFT, which means they have a focus that is NOT in the spell component pouch (at least not unless the dm WANTS them to be (or maybe the dm just wants one or two of them to be))

[torrasque666]

PEOPLE PEOPLE PLEASE READ THE PLAYER'S HANDBOOK! and maybe you should read the rules about posting. Specifically, thread necromancy.

[the_insomniac]

right now my issue is this: psionic plane shift. bear with me, because i read an argument about a druid spell that turns acorns into grenades (or somethin like that). the ruling was that even though the acorns weren't listed as a material component, eschew materials did not negate the need for them. because without acorns, you can't turn acorns into grenades. now i know that powers dont tend to have components, BUT, i can't find anything that says they CAN'T. so my thinking is this: plane shift (the spell) brings you to the plane associated with the fork you're holding, and since the power states that it works JUST LIKE THE SPELL except where noted, and since the spell says that the size and type of fork DICTATES which plane you travel to, and the power doesn't say that this ISN'T the case, then i would say that by RAW, the power still requires a fork to function! and not only that! the sla! like the one that giths have! would ALSO require that the gith (or whoever) carries around whatever forks they need for going to and from the planes they travel between! (in the gith's case, i would imagine that the forks for the astral and material planes are the only ones REALLY necessary for them to be carrying (based on the gith's fluff))....think about this: if a creature had the druid spell that turns acorns into grenades as an sla, would they be able to use it without first having acorns? remember this: if a dragon casts plane shift, it would need the fork! and if dragons carry forks, why can't angels, demons, and giths? bottom line is, the size and type of the fork DICTATES the plane traveled to.

BUT, im open to references that keep my interpretation from working. i really don't think that RAI wants PCs to just say "im bored" here and go to the beastlands as soon as their cleric hits level 9. i mean really, i am ALL ABOUT the sandbox, but at that point you'd just be there to roll dice for monsters..so please, try your hardest to prove me wrong, because if there's absolutely no point in portals (or sealing them), then what's the point of the city of sigil and the gatecrashers that hang out there?

[the_insomniac]

ive read the rules enough to know that a focus component IS a material component, just one that doesnt get expended in the casting of the spell, and therefore still required by limited wish as much as a non-focus material component would be

[Andezzar]

ive read the rules enough to know that a focus component IS a material component, just one that doesnt get expended in the casting of the spell, and therefore still required by limited wish as much as a non-focus material component would beThat is definitely wrong. Both are two distinct types of components.
A spell’s components are what you must do or possess to cast it. The Components entry in a spell description includes abbreviations that tell you what type of components it has.So if something is a material component it is not a focus component and vice versa.

[the_insomniac]

so does that mean an advanced aboleth mage cant cast plane shift?

"A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any
somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such
a creature also does need material components for its spells. The
creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component
(but not if the component is in another creature’s possession)
or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting
creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing
with noncostly components." (monster manual pg 315)

[ApologyFestival]

What an odd aside. A focus is not a material component any more than a verbal component is. It is strictly its own unique type of component in the game rules, sharing some similarities with material components.

Would an advanced aboleth mage be able to cast plane shift? Well, it needs the focus, that much is certain. What does it need to do with the focus? The spell description doesn't say how the focus is used, so it would be entirely fair to fall back on the default rules for a focus. Having the focus on the aboleth's person and "using it as a prop" fits the criteria -- assuming it can possess a focus, which of course it can, because regardless of its physical form it is an advanced spellcaster and as such not bloody stupid. It can flex its inhuman intelligence and figure out some way to get a special stick and duct tape it to its body.

As regards (Sp) plane shift -- and by extension, psionic plane shift -- spell-like abilities strictly "have no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost." There really is no space for argument. Spell-like plane shift (and by extension limited wish plane shift and psionic plane shift) can go anywhere, focus costs be damned, you kids go have fun in the infinite multiverse.

Now, on to the druid spell fire seeds, which was brought up as an aside. Eschew materials does eliminate the need to have acorns or berries. The spell works like this: druid casts fire seeds, material components (acorns) are destroyed, special bombs are created. With eschew materials (or casting the spell as a spell-like ability or what have you) there's no need to destroy acorns, ya just get the special bombs. Bing bang boom.

If this doesn't make sense -- which is fine, it's magic and as such kind of hard to visualise -- consider that fire seeds is a Conjuration (Creation) spell. It is not manipulating matter, it is *destroying* the acorns that are supplied as a material component (in keeping with material component rules) and creating special bombs in their place.

It's a silly argument anyway, because spell component pouches cost 5 gp and contain as many acorns as you need if anyone at the table gets pissy.

Edit: Oh wow, I didn't notice how old this thread was.

[Âmesang]

It's also fun applying the same concept to trap the soul and Ignore Material Components. :smalltongue: Pretty sure it's a sensible house rule to turn trap's material component into a focus, though (especially when compared to the similar spell, soul bind).

The idea of an aboleth finding a way to use plane shift's focus made me imagine the fork being struck, causing it to vibrate… which, in turn, makes the caster vibrate… and soon the caster (and any potential passengers) is vibrating through the Astral Plane. Or the planes vibrate around them. Or… something…

[ApologyFestival]

It's also fun applying the same concept to trap the soul and Ignore Material Components. :smalltongue: Pretty sure it's a sensible house rule to turn trap's material component into a focus, though (especially when compared to the similar spell, soul bind).
That's not even really necessary. For the standard spellcasting method of trap the soul, a gem of sufficient value is destroyed during the spellcasting (it's a material component), and a gem containing the creature's life force is conjured. Trap the soul works just fine with ignore material components, nothing wonky there.

Things do get wonky in the case of a trigger object method casting of trap the soul that gets around the need to supply a focus (such as wish), because the trigger object is the focus.

[Segev]

That's not even really necessary. For the standard spellcasting method of trap the soul, a gem of sufficient value is destroyed during the spellcasting (it's a material component), and a gem containing the creature's life force is conjured. Trap the soul works just fine with ignore material components, nothing wonky there.

I'd never thought of it that way, but...technically, you're right. That is what happens per the RAW. Neat.