Psicrystal for a non-manifester?

[justiceforall]

Hi playground,

Is there any point to a character without any real manifester levels (or, thanks to their wording, a non-psion, non-wilder manifester-levels) getting a psicrystal through the "psicrystal affinity" feat?

Only thing I've come up with thus far is a scout/watchdog?



I am assuming that RAI is that psicrystals cannot get their own feats.

[Rubik]

Hi playground,

Is there any point to a character without any real manifester levels (or, thanks to their wording, a non-psion, non-wilder manifester-levels) getting a psicrystal through the "psicrystal affinity" feat?There are a couple of ways I'm aware of. The Host feats in CPsi allow it, because they grant real MLs.

The other way is for you to give your psicrystal MLs via the Psicrystal Power feat. Warning: it's epic.


Only thing I've come up with thus far is a scout/watchdog?What, you mean reasons why you'd want one?

These and lots, lots more. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?147603-Best-things-to-do-with-a-psicrystal)


I am assuming that RAI is that psicrystals cannot get their own feats.Regardless of RAI (which we don't know), RAW they do, and there's absolutely no way to refute that without houseruling or breaking the rules.

[justiceforall]

Most of those uses seem to be for manifesters, although there were definitely a few in there that seemed pretty fun.

I'm looking at the possibility of taking the psicrystal feats to get a second psionic focus on a non-manifester character (since I believe Hidden Talent gives you a manifester level of 1?), and was wondering if there were other things I could do with the crystal that would make it worth two feats.

[Troacctid]

There are a couple of ways I'm aware of. The Host feats in CPsi allow it, because they grant real MLs.

The other way is for you to give your psicrystal MLs via the Psicrystal Power feat. Warning: it's epic.

Any psi-like ability fulfills the requirement, so it's not that tough to do.

[justiceforall]

Dang it, I need to read things more carefully:



Psicrystal Containment [Psionic]

Your psicrystal has advanced enough that it can hold a psionic focus that you store within it.
Prerequisites

Psicrystal Affinity, manifester level 3rd.


I was planning on having Hidden Talent take care of the manifester level requirement, but it only gives you a manifester level of 1 correct?

[Chronos]

Hidden Talent does not let you use its manifester level for any other purpose, including qualifying for things.

Meanwhile, though, a psicrystal is still a friendly critter that shares all your skill ranks and BAB, just like a familiar. That alone makes them pretty handy.

[Flickerdart]

Also it's a little bit hardier than a random squirrel you pick up off the street to make into a familiar. Need to sneak into a poison gas-filled vault? Go go gadget construct immunities!

[Rubik]

Also it's a little bit hardier than a random squirrel you pick up off the street to make into a familiar.How often do you go around picking up roadkill to turn into your familiar?

I know Undead Familiar is a thing, but still, you could go at it with just a little more class, couldn't you?

[Chronos]

...but still, you could go at it with just a little more class, couldn't you?
Correct. Only sorcerers, wizards, hexblades, and adepts get familiars by default, but psicrystals are available to all psions, wilders, psychic warriors, soulknifes, ardents, divine minds, lurks, and psychic rogues. So yes, psicrystals do have a little more class.

[Rubik]

Correct. Only sorcerers, wizards, hexblades, and adepts get familiars by default, but psicrystals are available to all psions, wilders, psychic warriors, soulknifes, ardents, divine minds, lurks, and psychic rogues. So yes, psicrystals do have a little more class.Only to manifesting soulknives, a la their manifesting ACF.

Other soulknives don't have any class at all.

[justiceforall]

What about qualifying by say, the Defensive Shell feat?

[Chronos]

Ah, right, I forgot that psicrystals had a requirement of ML 1-- I thought it was just having power points.

[justiceforall]

There are a couple of ways I'm aware of. The Host feats in CPsi allow it, because they grant real MLs.

Rubik are there any other non-epic ways to do it?

[Rubik]

Rubik are there any other non-epic ways to do it?Racial manifesting should work. Be a half-giant or maenad, and you should be able to grab a psicrystal due to your psi-like ability's manifester level.

[atemu1234]

Racial manifesting should work. Be a half-giant or maenad, and you should be able to grab a psicrystal due to your psi-like ability's manifester level.

Unless your DM likes Pathfinder's opinion on the subject.

[justiceforall]

So let's say I use either a Host feat or a racial manifestation to qualify and take my psi-crystal feat, it doesn't have any hit dice (and therefore no feats) because I don't have any levels in wilder or psion? Is that how that works?

[Rubik]

So let's say I use either a Host feat or a racial manifestation to qualify and take my psi-crystal feat, it doesn't have any hit dice (and therefore no feats) because I don't have any levels in wilder or psion? Is that how that works?Nah. Psicrystal HD equal their master's no matter what. Unfortunately, due to a typo, their psicrystal granted abilities only scale with psion/wilder level, but they still gain HD, skills, and feats.

[torrasque666]

Nah. Psicrystal HD equal their master's no matter what. Unfortunately, due to a typo, their psicrystal granted abilities only scale with psion/wilder level, but they still gain HD, skills, and feats.
Nope. unless there was a version after the one in the XPH(brb, checking CP....nope. and no errata AFAIK either) this is relevant. Just after the statblock, first thing under the Combat header


A psicrystal’s characteristics depend on its master. Its
Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice (counting only
levels in psion or wilder), its hit points are equal to half
its master’s, and its saving throw bonuses are the same as
its master’s.

[Rubik]

Nope. unless there was a version after the one in the XPH(brb, checking CP....nope. and no errata AFAIK either) this is relevant. Just after the statblock, first thing under the Combat headerOh. There's the typo.

So, since other psicrystals don't have any HD at all, nobody else can take one? That's stupid.

[torrasque666]

Oh. There's the typo.

So, since other psicrystals don't have any HD at all, nobody else can take one? That's stupid.

Just because you think its a typo, doesn't make it so. They probably wanted to keep it specifically for Psions and/or Wilders, the wizards and sorcerers of psionics. Psiwar was (from what I've seen/heard) supposed to be a psionic cleric kinda, the guy who buffs himself up and wades into melee to break face. Just doesn't get 9ths though.

[squiggit]

Just because you think its a typo, doesn't make it so.

There clearly is some kind of dysfunction there though, since you don't need to be a psion/wilder to acquire a psicrystal, but if you aren't the one you get doesn't exist or something because it's 0 HD.

[torrasque666]

There clearly is some kind of dysfunction there though, since you don't need to be a psion/wilder to acquire a psicrystal, but if you aren't the one you get doesn't exist or something because it's 0 HD.
True. But they were probably relying on people to then go and read the information on page 21 and realize that PsiWars don't get anything from it, and the other classes didn't exist at the time.

I mean hell, Fighters can take metamagic feats(with normal feat slots, not Bonus feats) but can't do anything with them.

[justiceforall]

Does it actually matter that my psicrystal would have 0HD? It would still as far as I can tell have hit points since it inherits those from my character?

[Rubik]

Does it actually matter that my psicrystal would have 0HD? It would still as far as I can tell have hit points since it inherits those from my character?Creatures with 0 HD are dead, by definition. See: negative levels.

[justiceforall]

So by RAW its literally impossible for a non-psion, non-wilder to ever have a psicrystal? Since it would simply blink out of existence the moment you took the feat?

[Chronos]

"Dead" is meaningless for a construct, though, and there's precedent for constructs with zero HD: Intelligent weapons are also 0HD constructs.

[Flickerdart]

"Dead" is meaningless for a construct, though, and there's precedent for constructs with zero HD: Intelligent weapons are also 0HD constructs.
They are not 0 HD, they are ∅ HD as there is never a suggestion that they do or do not (or should or should not) have any. Psicrystals explicitly have HD in the normal case, and so 0 HD means they die.

[justiceforall]

Heh, all the handbooks for psi-war/etc all go on and on and on about how awesome psicrystals are for those characters - yet it seems those are all invalid?

[ShurikVch]

Answer to your question #603 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19170766&postcount=1246)

[justiceforall]

For the purposes of this particular thread, that answer doesn't help (it does answer part A of the question I put up in the RAW Q&A yes) - my character that spawned this discussion has no manifester levels and would not obtain any actual manifesting class until very late in order to qualify for those prestige classes.

On the note of your answer - there is a fair bit of argument in the other threads I've found about RAI and how WotC "obviously" meant for other manifesters to have access to psicrystals, but those two prestiges you put up throw that into a bit of doubt given they specifically mention that the prestige levels count (and the argument used was "its a holdover from 3.0 and doesn't belong). Do you know if those prestiges are 3.0 or 3.5?

[torrasque666]

For the purposes of this particular thread, that answer doesn't help (it does answer part A of the question I put up in the RAW Q&A yes) - my character that spawned this discussion has no manifester levels and would not obtain any actual manifesting class until very late in order to qualify for those prestige classes.

On the note of your answer - there is a fair bit of argument in the other threads I've found about RAI and how WotC "obviously" meant for other manifesters to have access to psicrystals, but those two prestiges you put up throw that into a bit of doubt given they specifically mention that the prestige levels count (and the argument used was "its a holdover from 3.0 and doesn't belong). Do you know if those prestiges are 3.0 or 3.5?

Crystal Master says "Prestige Class v 3.5" at the top, so that's probably 3.5 and Kineticist is a variant of Pyrokineticist. It does however mention that its based off the one from the Psionics Handbook(and even contains a reference to Psionic Combat, which doesn't exist in 3.5)

So Crystal Master yes, the linked Kineticist no.

[justiceforall]

Then I guess that's a loose show that RAI is that non-psion, non-wilders weren't meant to have psicrystals? :(

[ShurikVch]

my character that spawned this discussion has no manifester levels and would not obtain any actual manifesting class until very late in order to qualify for those prestige classes. Then how you going to get a Psicrystal?
Honestly, it's similar to "Familiar for non-caster". Answer will be "spellcasting race, template, or feat"

In your case, even if you don't have a manifesting class, race, or template, you still may qualify, if you take [Host] feat or Wild Talent from one of The Six Hidden Houses, then add in Practiced Manifester (Complete Psionic)

[DrMartin]

In your case, even if you don't have a manifesting class, race, or template, you still may qualify, if you take [Host] feat or Wild Talent from one of The Six Hidden Houses, then add in Practiced Manifester (Complete Psionic)

I think that doesn't really work, RAW - practiced manifester requires that you choose a psionic class to apply its benefits to, and neither wild/hidden talent or any of the host feat are a valid choice for that

(you can still get a psicrystal through the host feat alone though, it's just bumping your manifester level with pract. manifester that doesn't work)

[torrasque666]

Then how you going to get a Psicrystal?
Honestly, it's similar to "Familiar for non-caster". Answer will be "spellcasting race, template, or feat"

In your case, even if you don't have a manifesting class, race, or template, you still may qualify, if you take [Host] feat or Wild Talent from one of The Six Hidden Houses, then add in Practiced Manifester (Complete Psionic)
Oh he may indeed qualify, but as noted above, Psicrystals get HD from only Psion and Wilder levels, nothing else. So he can take it, but it doesn't actually exist/its already dead.

[ShurikVch]

I think that doesn't really work, RAW - practiced manifester requires that you choose a psionic class to apply its benefits to, and neither wild/hidden talent or any of the host feat are a valid choice for that In that case, how about this thing:
Practiced Magic

[untyped]

Your spell-like abilities are more powerful.

Prerequisite: Spellcraft 4 ranks, spell-like abilities.

Benefit: Your caster level for you spell-like abilities increases by +4. Ths can’t increase your caster level for your spell-like abilities beyond your Hit Dice. However, even if you can’t benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain non-caster-level Hit Dice you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus.

If you have spellcasting ability from multiple sources (from gained templates or from a character class) you must choose which set of spell-like abilities gain the feat’s effect.

This does not affect how often you can use your spell-like abilities in a day. It only increases your caster level, which would help you penetrate spell resistance, increase the duration and damage of some spells, and so on.

Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you choose it, you must apply it to a different set of spell-like abilities. Magic-psionic transparency...



(you can still get a psicrystal through the host feat alone though, it's just bumping your manifester level with pract. manifester that doesn't work) Only Psions ans Wilders may have Psicrystal, because it's "Hit Dice: As master’s HD" "(counting only levels in psion or wilder)" - everybody's else Psicrystals have 0 HD and instantly wink out of existence. Crystal Master may fix it, but required ML 5. [Host] feats give you ML=HD/2, but it's kinda slow...

[DrMartin]

In that case, how about this thing:
Practiced Magic

[untyped]

Your spell-like abilities are more powerful.

Prerequisite: Spellcraft 4 ranks, spell-like abilities.

Benefit: Your caster level for you spell-like abilities increases by +4. Ths can’t increase your caster level for your spell-like abilities beyond your Hit Dice. However, even if you can’t benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain non-caster-level Hit Dice you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus.

If you have spellcasting ability from multiple sources (from gained templates or from a character class) you must choose which set of spell-like abilities gain the feat’s effect.

This does not affect how often you can use your spell-like abilities in a day. It only increases your caster level, which would help you penetrate spell resistance, increase the duration and damage of some spells, and so on.

Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you choose it, you must apply it to a different set of spell-like abilities. Magic-psionic transparency...


Only Psions ans Wilders may have Psicrystal, because it's "Hit Dice: As master’s HD" "(counting only levels in psion or wilder)" - everybody's else Psicrystals have 0 HD and instantly wink out of existence. Crystal Master may fix it, but required ML 5. [Host] feats give you ML=HD/2, but it's kinda slow...

I think it depends how tightly you are bound by RAW - still going by it feat prerequisite and such are not affected by transparency in a way that says "caster level = manifester level", but it just says that transparency means that
Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

Now, I have the memory of a sentence that said something along the lines of "Psionic are spell-like abilities" but I think that was in the 3.0 psionic handbook, as I can't find that bit anywhere at the moment. Under the rules that I can find I don't think you can use a Manifester level to qualify for a feat that requires a Caster level, and in turn use the bonus that feat provides to a caster level to upgrade your manifester level.

But that said, if it was my game, I'd certainly allow a psionic-equivalent version of the feat...I'd also allow non-psion and wilder to advance their psicrystals if they wanted to acquire one so badly that they feel like investing three feats in it, by the way.

[Rubik]

Now, I have the memory of a sentence that said something along the lines of "Psionic are spell-like abilities" but I think that was in the 3.0 psionic handbook, as I can't find that bit anywhere at the moment. Under the rules that I can find I don't think you can use a Manifester level to qualify for a feat that requires a Caster level, and in turn use the bonus that feat provides to a caster level to upgrade your manifester level.Manifesting is actually a psi-like ability, and the Magic Mantle will enforce super-transparency according to its wording, allowing you to use anything that can be used on spells (and spell-likes) on your powers, so long as it's conceivable to do so.

[Chronos]

I still don't think that transparency, even in the absolute form granted by the Magic Mantle, equates caster level and manifester level. Or rather, if it does, it breaks a heck of a lot of things. The problem is that not all magic is casting. If transparency makes manifester level and caster level equivalent, does it also do the same for meldshaping level, or binding level? Those are also magical.

[Troacctid]

Don't all spell-like abilities have caster levels already (equal to the creature's HD unless otherwise specified)? Doesn't that mean that psionics and psi-like abilities should have both manifester levels and caster levels, separately, regardless of transparency?

[justiceforall]

Crystal Master may fix it, but required ML 5. [Host] feats give you ML=HD/2, but it's kinda slow...

Indeed, but in addition to the ML requirement, you also have to have the two psicrystal feats, one of which already comes with ML3 as a prerequisite. So it was always going to be slow anyway. To be honest I'm not actually that fussed with it being so slow, and with the magic of retraining I might still get it to work. I guess it depends on how much I want the crystal. I would *really* like to be able to have two sets of psionic focus :).

It's a long way off no matter what way I look at it, at the moment my character is still 1st level. And the last few characters life expectancies haven't been all that great either.