5e Gestalt tips.

[HoarsHalberd]

Okay so I'm going to be running a 5e game and I'm thinking about letting my players Gestalt (Half the players are big fans of Guild Wars, and so am I, and I like dual classing.) So far I have a few rules to stop the most broken interactions I can think of.

Spellcasting progression: Highest single class.
No multiclassing.
ASI progression of one class only
Highest hit die.
Multiclassing rules for extra attack.

Now are there any interactions that could be too powerful compared to other classes I may need to nip in the bud?

[MrStabby]

You will have to (obviously) scale up your encounters but I think it should be fine.

Things to be aware of - Warlock +Caster for two semi independent sets of spell progression. At high level arcane eye + diviner gives you all your low level spell slots back (for example). Or short rest spells powering a necromancer raising an army.

Fighter + Anything (rogue comes to mind) is strong, especially at low levels as a lot of the features can stack pretty well and the extra ASIs of Fighter are pretty useful.

Paladin + Caster can give a lot of smites without sacrificing the martial aspect too much. Elemental smite/elemental weapon +draconic sorc are good but not broken. Smiting druids in the shape of a bear may be too out of theme for some people.


Common multiclass combinations may also be popular such as Barbarian and Rogue.

[Wartex1]

As a suggestion, how about making separate spellcasting combinations when using Warlock. Pact magic can only be used to cast Warlock spells, and those spells don't activate certain Wizard features.

[HoarsHalberd]

Warlock caster I didn't even think of. :-/ Might have to only give half spell progression of Warlock when taken with a spell caster, and no mystic arcanum feature. (Otherwise I know at least my most munchkinny player will go SorcLock for the potential to get two level 9 spells.) Hmm... Well if anyone goes Warlock+Caster I'll have a word with them and tell them I'll see how it's going and may scale back their power.

The others you said just seem like good combinations to me, but I'll let everyone know I may scale them back a little if they get too powerful compared to other decently optimised characters. (I'm not going to scale them back to someone whose made a flavourful but trap character.)

EDIT:

As a suggestion, how about making separate spellcasting combinations when using Warlock. Pact magic can only be used to cast Warlock spells, and those spells don't activate certain Wizard features.

That sounds good to me. I'll try it like that at first. And also not give them Magic Arcanum. And then if they need some more tweaking I'll work with the players. I trust them all to understand that the system may need tweaks.

[SharkForce]

eldritch knights and arcane tricksters have class features that may tempt your full casters to pick them up, but then suffer from having basically only one class feature in that archetype.

which is a bit of a shame in some ways because otherwise those archetypes could really make for some interesting characters when combined with a full caster (arcane trickster + trickery domain cleric, for example).

edit: oh, and shadow monk + rogue (possibly with a warlock splash on one side if you're allowing multiclass) seems like it could get very strong with built-in access to 2 attacks at level 1, 3 attacks at level 2, and 4 attacks at level 5, plus some very nice synergy in abilities (double-dipping on saves at 14 and evasion at... 7 i think? isn't great, but everything else working together is kinda scary).

[Wartex1]

For saves, allow them to choose one good save (DEX, WIS, CON) and one bad save (INT, STR, CHA) from their respective classes. I'd also rule that using two full casters only grants extra spells and slots for 1st-5th level spells, to avoid extra caster bloat. Also, if you learn magic from different sources (cleric asks a god, wizard reads a book), then you prepare each one separately, requiring a bit of extra time to replenish and change both.

Here are some combinations to look out for:

Shadow Monk + Rogue
Barbarian + Rogue
Barbarian + Champion Fighter
Warlock + Almost Anything
Maybe Monk + Cleric as well

[pibby]

I don't recommend the idea of gestalting, rather you should talk with your players about what multiclass combinations they're looking for. From there you could make class features from the secondary class as a subclass for the other. This could also work well even if they want to multiclass more than once. It does involve a lot of homebrewing but doing so will ensure that you're players will be able to keep up with their at-will damage as with single class characters while letting them use fun features from other classes. This will save a lot of pain the long run of having to adjust your encounters to keep up with possible Mary Sues.

If that's not your jam than I suggest that you should tailor your important encounters in accordance to what builds your players make; generally making your encounters more sophisticated but not necessarily more lethal while doing so. Gestalting often opens up more options for players (cleric/wizard combo), sometimes lets them overkill targets (rogue/paladin), or gives them a ridiculous amount of ability resources (sorcerer/warlock combo) depending on the combination. So for instance you can use a dragon that has the spellcasting variant, have a lot of mooks spread wide throughout the battlefield, and/or create battlefields that lets the NPCs use it to their advantage if your PCs have easy ways to overcome any of these disadvantages.

I would not recommend that you raise the CR for any encounters past deadly even if your PCs become flexible powerhouses given that they will have the same amount of hit points and possibly similar amounts of defensive options as a normal class.

[SharkForce]

oh, one other thing to look out for... ASIs should presumably be (mostly) based on character level, not class level. otherwise you're handing out twice as many.

and on a related note, some classes are far more attribute-dependant than others. in particular, paladins desperately want (str or dex), con, and cha to all be as high as possible. the same can be said for many gish builds; blade pact warlocks get a heck of a lot better when they can actually expect high cha, con, and attack stat. they will combo very well with fighters and rogues, which give extra ASIs.

and another key thing to look out for is that some classes are balanced very carefully to not get many attacks... rogues are a great example, but barbarians, bladelocks, and paladins scale more from 4 attacks per round than fighters do. the same is generally true for critical hits, which means champion can mean more for these characters than they would be for a champion fighter.

finally, it is much easier to pull of combinations that will increase single-ability dependancy.


pulling all this together... something like a paladin on one side with fighter 11/warlock 9 (for cha-based shillelagh, to be combined with a dueling-style quarterstaff polearm master build, plus invocations, a decent and cheap ranged attack, access to tons of rituals, and recharging level 5 spell slots) on the other side starts to look pretty impressive...

[Ghost Nappa]

I'm going to play devil's advocate and tell you to see what happens when you literally do not answer the brokenness of some of their class combinations and say it's because the characters are all gods in the making or something.


In theory, the Gestalt-ness doesn't matter until the characters hit "Level 11." If you start at Level 1, it'll be awhile before there's any issue. You're basically just doubling the speed of progression up to that point.

[Gnomes2169]

Well, if you wanted some general gestalt rules, then I made a bit of a list (with some variant options) that you can find in my signature... and I would recommend making ASI's standardized between classes (at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19), with only classes like Fighters and Rogues gaining their bonus ASI's as part of their normal class progression.

[Yagyujubei]

I'm actually thinking if you get super high stat rolls monk+Oath breaker paladin might be fun here here.

MAD aside theres some solid at will dps and incredible defensive ability synergy at play here.


4d10+4d8+48 dmg per round at will, with a possible 19d8 added on top with a full smite nova

stunning strike, quivering palm for other combat options

Proficiency+CHA mod AND advantage on all saves.

immunity to disease and poison, permanent sanctuary, deflect missiles, slow fall/movement goodies

lay on hands+wholeness of body is a ton of healing

evasion

purity of mind and cleansing touch offer more negative effect healing than you'll ever need

resist to non-magical damage permanently and all dmg aside from force when empty body is up

would be REALLY hard to out dual a monkadin

[Theodoxus]

I did a full workup on Gestalt as a modification for multiclassing, along the lines of 2E Multiclassing.

In brief, I divided the 12 classes into four groups: Warrior, Priest, Mage and Knave - players could only pick one class from each group, and the more classes you had, the slower you advanced.

I haven't had a chance to playtest it yet - but my next game I DM I'll offer the opportunity.

[Rowan Wolf]

I did a full workup on Gestalt as a modification for multiclassing, along the lines of 2E Multiclassing.

In brief, I divided the 12 classes into four groups: Warrior, Priest, Mage and Knave - players could only pick one class from each group, and the more classes you had, the slower you advanced.

I haven't had a chance to playtest it yet - but my next game I DM I'll offer the opportunity.

Please do try to keep a campaign journal up for view as my current group has too large/inexperienced on average for me to really test anything out. I've been tinkering with the gestalt and alternative mulitclass systems.

As for the original post what is general level of power you are looking for from the gestalt option?

[Wolfen Fenrison]

I like using this for games when I have 2-3 players and none of them want to run multiple characters. This thread is to discuss interesting, fluffy and/or crunchy class combos.
Starting off with the original example combos in the entry.

Barbarian/Bard
Seems a little MAD, requiring Str, Dex, Con, and Cha at least in the 13-15 range to be doable. Collage of Swords or Valor and Path of the Ancestral Guardian would make for decent Skald I reckon.

Barbarian/Wizard
d12 hit die and a naked AC bonus that also provides more hit points makes the Wizard not so squishy anymore, and also begs to be combined with the Bladesinger tradition. With the right statline you can have a naked AC while bladsinging that puts full plate w/shield Fighters to shame, combine with bear totem to also be resistant to damn near everything. Also by lvl 5, you get extra movement that stacks with your bladesong extra movement.

Cleric/Sorcerer
So many great combinations; Life/Divine Soul (healing for days), Light/Phoenix or Pyromancer (bevis chanting "Fire! Fire! Fire"), Death or Grave/Shadow (super emo/goth), Tempest/Storm (Look Thor and Ororo had a kid), Darkness/Shadow ("Ah, you think darkness is your ally...), Light/Shadow ("Perfectly balanced, as all things should be."), Arcana/Wild Magic (extra arcane spells, random additional magical effects, go nuts).

Druid/Ranger
There are some interesting combinations with this one; Moon/Hunter (powerful wild shapes + hunter tricks and extra attacks = one scary mofo), Twilight/Monster Slayer (Nature Based anti-undead at it's finest), Spores/Primeval Guardian (fungus and tree powers, go full on "the happening" on their asses).

Fighter/Ranger
There are really no bad combinations here but there are some with a touch more flavor; Cavalier/Beastmaster (pick a small race, grab a lance, have a decent mount and Beastmaster is finally useful), Battle Master/Hunter (Use the spell-less ranger variant to have all the mauvers), Eldritch Knight/Horizon Walker (Magical teleporting beatstick), Brute or Champion/Hunter (lots of offensive and a little defensive potential, at least you have some spells to give your actions some diversity.)

Fighter/Rouge
Adding the combat prowess of the Fighter and the stealth of the Rogue is one of the oldest combos in D&D. For a classic feel go Champion/Thief... A little too boring? Too Vanilla? How about these; Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster (Damn near the Fighter/Mage/Thief of yore, lots of low level spells and magical abilities), Samurai/Swashbuckler (Want to be the scariest damn swordsman ever? This is how), Warlord/Mastermind (manipulate your enemies and your friends, be the ultimate chessmaster).

Monk/Cleric
Wisdom does damn near all your heavy lifting here. And there are some nice thematic combos; Open Hand/Life (heal yourself with WoB and others with spells, gets free sanctuary, have some cantrips for range), Sun Soul/Light (you are just a font of light and fire, might be the best Ryu/Goku build), Long Death/Death ("Omae wa mou shindeiru"), Kensai/War (takes a big steaming **** all over the Samurai/Swashbuckler's title of "scariest swordsman"), Tranquility/Protection (Defense and healing out the ass), Shadow/Darkness ("You merely adopted the dark, I was born to it, molded by it...).

Monk/Sorcerer
So damn MAD, but let's see what we can get; Shadow/Shadow (*insert third DKR Bane reference*), Tranquility/Divine Soul (Healing and Protection from Monk+Healing and blasting from Sorcerer), Sun Soul/Phoenix (If you can get a decent statline, by level 18 you're a Super Saiyan Harry).

Monk/Wizard
Some more MAD Monk action; Kensai/Bladesinger (needs 3 good stats to try for "scariest swordsman", but could do it), Long Death/Necromancy (pretty much just fluff combo, but done right could be scary), Tranquillity/Abjuration (The best defense is... moar defense), Shadow/Illusion (Ninja with a ton of distraction magic).

Paladin/Sorcerer
This will rival Monk/Cleric for most efficient combo ability wise, but btfo'd it terms of magical ability. Basically there are no bad choices but Devotion/Divine Soul is the fluffiest combo and makes the Pally an even better healer while still adding all the Sorcerer goodness.

Sorcerer/Wizard
A mad spell casting combo, but so much arcane magic. You can pick your spells know based off of spells you know you will always need/use and the spells you memorise from your book and fill in the gaps. Some neat combos; Pyromancer/Lore Master (alter all you spells to fire and ignore resistance and eventually immunity), Stone/Bladesinger (If you have a low Dex but still want to gish).

And now for combos i came up with;

Paladin/Warlock With the high refresh rate of Warlock spell slots this means there is no reason not to smite every combat as often as you can. There are some combos for this that have maximum fluff/crunch; Devotion/Celestial, Ancients/Archfey, Conquest/Fiend, Oathbreaker/Undying, Treachery/Great Old One, Vengeance/Hexblade.

Sorcerer/Warlock Slots refreshed on short rests that level up as you level, sorcery points that be burned for slots or metamagic effects. You are living magical artillery, but lets look at some combos; Divine Soul/Celestial, Storm/Kraken, Shadow/Raven Queen, Sea/Great Old One.

Paladin/Ranger Woodland Knight of the Wildlands with some interesting synergy; Ancients/Primeval Guardian, Vengeance/Hunter or Monster Slayer.

Ranger/Rogue Urban/Wilderness ambush predator without peer; Gloom Stalker/Assassin, Hunter/Scout or Swashbuckler.

Fighter (Eldritch Knight)/Wizard (Bladesinger) Yo dawg, I heard you like gishes...

Fighter (Purple Dragon Knight)/Paladin (Oath of the Crown) Champion of the civilized lands.

Barbarian (Berserker)/Fighter (Champion) Crit often, crit hard.

Paladin (Ancients)/Bard (Glamour) Magical champion of the Feywild.

Cleric (Nature)/Druid (Land) CaDzilla lives!

Mystic (Awakened)/Wizard (Illusion) Jace clone.

Bard (Lore)/Sorcerer (Divine Soul) So much magic, does what the Sorcerer/Wizard wishes it could do. Add it some Cleric spells and magic from any other class from the Bard. Possibly the most versatile spell caster in the entire game.

Fighter (Samurai)/Monk (Kensei) officially the most weeb build.

Barbarian (Zealot)/Cleric (War) Kratos from God of War.

Barbarian (Zealot)/Paladin (Vengeance) War from Darksiders.

Artificer (Gunsmith)/Wizard (War Magic) "I'm here to kick ass and cast spells, and I'm all out of slots".

[Kane0]

Gestalt rules I use:

- At level 1 a gestalt character chooses two classes to level up in simultaneously
o The character must meet the minimum ability scores for both classes as per the multiclassing rules
o The Hit Die of the character is the average of the two classes, rounded down
o The higher number of skill proficiencies of the two classes is used, chosen from both lists
o The character gains starting equipment and proficiency in Saving Throws as per one of the chosen classes
o The best weapon and armor proficiencies of the two classes are used
o The character gains the class features of both chosen classes
o Duplicates of identical class features such as Spellcasting, ASIs and Extra Attack are ignored
- Gestalt characters suffer a -1 to all ability scores (after generation and racial adjustment) and to their proficiency bonus
- Gestalt characters cannot multiclass
- Gestalt characters can only attune to two magic items

Has worked pretty well for my table in the past. If you're going Gestalt you're already turning everything up to 11 so don't stress about character balancing too much, just adjust during play.

[Blood of Gaea]

This is my ruleset for gestalt:


No Multiclassing.
If both sides of the Gestalt offer you the same feature, select which you would prefer.
Choose one side of the Gestalt to gain ASI from.
Choose one side of the Gestalt to gain Spellcasting slots from (this includes warlocks).
Choose one side of the Gestalt to gain saving throw proficiencies from (this does not include class features and feats that grant you them).
Each side prepares spells separately.
Choose a number of skills according to which side offers the most, but they may be chosen from either skill list.



Stats, pick one:

Array: 16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 9.
Roll: Roll 4d6 drop the lowest, if the result does not have at least two 15's, the group may choose to reroll. Note, when we decide to roll for stats, the entire group shares the same set.