HOLY RANGER build help

[j_spencer93]

Ok well i know this is going to annoy you guys but i need some help with this one.
My player wants to be a belmont sorta guy, a ranger who hunts down evil at all cost. BUT here is the fun part- he wants vow of poverty, leading into vow of peace and nonviolence.

So any suggestions? And please, not "don't pick vows" blah blah. We are well aware of there drawbacks.

he is thinking something like ranger, apostle of peace (1), stalker of Kharash, sworn slayer.
Also he wants to use a whip, and is wondering if apostle would allow holy water, which as DM, i may allow.

EDIT: I see the problem with the whip, and will try to find a way to work the general idea into the game without just rule 0 it.

BUILD: mystic ranger 4, prestige paladin 1, sworn slayer 5, knight of the raven 10.

[LoyalPaladin]

I tried really hard to make a Ranger/Paladin a few weeks ago. There is a feat (that has been lost to me) that stacks ranger/paladin levels for determining your mount/companion's level. You can also take celestial companion I believe.

I don't remember why I gave up on it. But I think it's general effectiveness went down a bunch. I bet if you went Ranger/Cleric/Knight of the Raven it would accomplish most of what you wanted.

[j_spencer93]

He doesn't want paladin though. I will see if he will change his mind on that part but doubt it.

[KillingAScarab]

Ok well i know this is going to annoy you guys but i need some help with this one.
My player wants to be a belmont sorta guy, a ranger who hunts down evil at all cost. BUT here is the fun part- he wants vow of poverty, leading into vow of peace and nonviolence.

...

Also he wants to use a whip, and is wondering if apostle would allow holy water, which as DM, i may allow.

EDIT: I see the problem with the whip, and will try to find a way to work the general idea into the game without just rule 0 it.Cayzle had a screed (http://www.cayzle.com/screeds/book020.html) on tricks to perform with whips, but as you have probably figured out, lashing the undead to bits isn't one of the common things you can do. A whip dagger will help a little (I'm not certain where to find the 3.5 upgrade for them) since then you can actually deal lethal damage, but you still don't threaten an area.

I seem to recall stumbling across some sort of undead killing prestige class through the Neverwinter Nights PRC (Skullclan Hunter) which could be combined to a degree with a Lasher prestige class it also had... ah, this was the thread (http://prc.athasreborn.com/index.php?topic=337.0). No idea where the source for those two came from, though.

[LoyalPaladin]

He doesn't want paladin though. I will see if he will change his mind on that part but doubt it.
Like I said before, Paladin/Ranger was really hard to pull off and would probably leave him feeling lackluster. But he gets a nifty raven and some spellcasting with Knight of the Raven.

He can also take favored enemy undead or evil outsider with Ranger to further cement his idea.

[j_spencer93]

Looking it over i am thinking maybe a paladin ranger would be a good build idea. Maybe grey guard too since he thinks their code is to restrictive, but with those vow feats i doubt his code will be a problem.

[Darrin]

So any suggestions? And please, not "don't pick vows" blah blah. We are well aware of there drawbacks.


Well, Ranger w/ Prestige Paladin or Paladin w/ Prestige Ranger springs to mind. There are a couple Paladin variants that get Favored Enemy: the Simple Paladin on Unearthed Arcana p. 58, and the Hunter of Fiends variant from Dragon Magazine #349. However, Stalker of Kharash only advances Ranger spellcasting, so... assuming Ranger 4/Stalker of Kharash 10, that leaves 6 levels left. Paladin 4/Fighter 2 works well enough, or Paladin 4/Ranger +2 for more Favored Enemy and Improved Combat Style. If he wants all of Stalker of Kharash and Sworn Slayer in the build, then you're probably looking at Ranger 5/Stalker of Kharash 10/Sworn Slayer 5.



I see the problem with the whip, and will try to find a way to work the general idea into the game without just rule 0 it.

Whip Dagger is 3.0, but is easy enough to adjust for 3.5. Spiked Chain is obviously popular, but there's also the Kusari Gama (DMG), Chain Lash (Oriental Adventures/Savage Species), Drow Scorpion Chain (Secrets of Xen'drik), and the Spinning Sword (Secrets of Sarlona).

[Grim Reader]

Wildshaping Ranger -> Master of Many Forms w/Exalted Wildshape? Wild shape is one of the ways to mitigate the drawbacks of Vow of Poverty.

[KillingAScarab]

A question came to mind: Which Belmont would your player want to emulate?

Simon was fairly straightforward, with maybe a flaming/flaming burst enchantment on the whip in Simon's Quest and additional tricks in Super Casltevania IV (he could jump on and off the stairs!).

Trevor was pretty similar but had that whole soul companion system.

Christopher and Sonia had the ability to launch a projectile from the tip of the whip. Sonia also had the ability to become freakin' invincible and made Koji Igarashi cry. : )

Richter and Juste had item crashes, with Juste also getting access to a magic system. Richter had a Shoryuken and that weird slide.

And Julius had... uhm... plot amnesia that prevented you from knowing how he was cool enough to destroy Dracula?

[j_spencer93]

Ok slight change

He wants a ranger (or paladin with favorite enemy) with sword of Kharash and sworn slayer able to use a whip but with the vow of nonviolence and preferably more.
Vow of poverty is sought if someone can figure out how to use a whip with it.

[Rebel7284]

Apostles of peace gain no proficiencies, and are unable to wear armor without losing access to their spells. They can, however, wear protective magic items.

If you rule that this overrides VoP restrictions, you can argue for the use of a +1 defending whip. It's a stretch IMO, but VoP needs all the help it can get.

Also, consider the use of Mystic Ranger from Dragon Magazine combined with Sword of the Arcane Order feat.
You effectively get sorcerer progression casting until you reach 5th level spells. On a ranger chasis. Even if you lose a few levels of progression due to crappy prestige classes, you can still end up useful due to the general utility of wizard spells. You may need some extra feats with VoP as you can't have a spellbook...

[j_spencer93]

I rule that apostle of peaces allows defensive items over VoP without breaking it, simply because if it didn't then it would be useless. However, idk about waving the simple weapon only rule. That might be a little stretching it.

So we ran into a snag.

We want either ranger-prestige paladin
OR
Paladin-prestige ranger (i am allowing that anything that advances ranger casting to advance prestige ranger casting)
But i see no way to do this; help?

[Darrin]

Vow of poverty is sought if someone can figure out how to use a whip with it.

Pyrokineticist. If fire isn't his thing, then there are some variants (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e) that use cold, electricity, sonic, or acid.



We want either ranger-prestige paladin
OR
Paladin-prestige ranger (i am allowing that anything that advances ranger casting to advance prestige ranger casting)
But i see no way to do this; help?

Ranger works best with Stalker of Kharash. The tricky part of the Prestige Paladin thing is getting Turn Undead... Necromantic Bloodline/Kin Mastery (Dragon Compendium) probably isn't worth the effort. In Dragon Magazine #305, there's God-Touched/Divine Channeler, which gets you TU 1/day for only two feats... but that's on top of Mounted Combat, so he's probably going to want those two feats for something else. You can squeeze it down to one feat via Planar Touchstone, but ruleswise it's iffy... picking up the Sun domain from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, which grants TU as a cleric (presumably to a Mystic, but mumble-mumble-handwave).

[j_spencer93]

You know i have thought of that honestly and will mention it to him but his build is kind of strict on levels unless you can help with that.

EDIT: that would be a no...requires chaotic while he requires neutral.

Well i see a way....Cleric. I could then choose both as prestige class and move on from there.

[Darrin]

You know i have thought of that honestly and will mention it to him but his build is kind of strict on levels unless you can help with that.

EDIT: that would be a no...requires chaotic while he requires neutral.

Hrrm. Mantled Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) with call weaponry and Soulbound Weapon?

[j_spencer93]

Well so far without looking at your suggestion yet i would have to do it this way;
cleric X, prestige ranger, prestige paladin, sworn slayer, sword of kharash.

Crap his idea is hard to make.

I like your idea btw, gave me an idea to take back to the player and see what he thinks.


Hrrm. Mantled Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) with call weaponry and Soulbound Weapon?

little confused, does that create a real weapon? if so it doesn't work.
However it almost seems like a new psionic power instead.

You know i really like the idea of the sword of celestia variant of paladin.

Ok the build i can create that even matches all he wants is Cleric 4, prestige paladin 1 (hunter of fiends variant), sworn slayer 5.
This leaves 5 open, but can not take sword of karrash since it requires neutral good. If he wiggle in pyrokineticist then he gets his whip but it isn't that great of one.

[Sith_Happens]

who hunts down evil at all cost.

vow of peace and nonviolence

stalker of Kharash, sworn slayer

vow of peace and nonviolence

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/088/b/5/this_does_not_compute_gif_by_cliopadra13kaassis-d5zn5su.gif

[j_spencer93]

Ya I ain't 100% sure if this works fluff wise but crunch wise i see no problems. He wants to actually only disarm and restrain them, giving his foes a chance to redeem.
His sworn slayer foe is going to be undead, so that actually doesn't create a problem.

Got it figured out, yay lol

[Petrocorus]

I tried really hard to make a Ranger/Paladin a few weeks ago. There is a feat (that has been lost to me) that stacks ranger/paladin levels for determining your mount/companion's level. You can also take celestial companion I believe.

Devoted Tracker from CAdv.
And Holy Mount from DragMag 325


I don't remember why I gave up on it. But I think it's general effectiveness went down a bunch. I bet if you went Ranger/Cleric/Knight of the Raven it would accomplish most of what you wanted.

Yes, or maybe Druid / KotR / Pr Paladin. There is some Druid ACF from UA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) that gives Favored Enemy.

On an unrelated note, where your profile picture comes from?

[j_spencer93]

Well guys stuck again.

Mystic Ranger with the edgewalker sentinel gives me the spell i need for paladin. Can choose the feat. Just need another BAB.So far i have

ranger 3
X
Paladin 1
sworn slayer 5
X (maybe stalker of karrash, idk yet, any good ideas will be considered).

He is meant to destroy undead on sight, seeing it as perversion of life but thinks anything living can be redeemed. So ideas? Light stuff seems to fit so maybe soldier of light? Oh Knight of the raven is being highly considered.

[Sith_Happens]

Mystic Ranger with the edgewalker sentinel gives me the spell i need for paladin. Can choose the feat. Just need another BAB.So far i have

ranger 3
X
Paladin 1
sworn slayer 5
X (maybe stalker of karrash, idk yet, any good ideas will be considered).

Ranger 4 for spells and animal companion, seems like a no-brainer.

[j_spencer93]

This build would be more powerful without those damn vows he wants, but oh well. Anyways if that fits best i'll add it. What about knight of the raven, does it work here well?

[Clistenes]

Well, he could use the Wild Defender variant ranger from Dragon Magazine 324 (page 95) that can Smite Evil, and take Track, Zen Archery, Insightful Strike and Serenity as his feats, take one level of Cleric, and then go for Fist of Raziel.

Or he could start as a standard Ranger, take a level of Cleric with the Destruction Domain and then go for Fist of Raziel.

Or Ranger/Cleric/Prestige Paladin.

Or to just be a Ranger/Stalker of Karash.

What I don't see is the whole Apostle of Peace with Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace...that doesn't mix well with Stalker of Karash or Ranger.

[Sith_Happens]

Have you checked that the rest of the party is going to be remotely compatible with someone with Vow of Peace? Because very few are.

[Petrocorus]

This build would be more powerful without those damn vows he wants, but oh well. Anyways if that fits best i'll add it. What about knight of the raven, does it work here well?

As we already said, yes, that would fit perfectly. It's an anti-undead PrC with a pally feel, and it gives Turn Undead at lvl 3.
And you qualify as Ranger 4. After this, you can qualify for Pr Paladin if you find a way to cast Protection from Evil.
Or you can take Sword of the Arcane Order to qualify to Silver Pyromancer.

[j_spencer93]

The stalker is removed from the build. Also sorry i forgot you guys mentioned it. Protection from evil is handled by edgewalker sentinel feat. I will look into that variant though, it should help.
As for the player, yes the vows are ok.

ok got the build figured out. So i simply now have to figure this part out.
How can he get a whip???? Trading 1 knight of the raven for pyrokineticis is the only legal way i have found.

[KillingAScarab]

How can he get a whip???? Trading 1 knight of the raven for pyrokineticis is the only legal way i have found.You seem reluctant to accept the advice of using one with the defending special ability, nor do you seem interested in any spell-storing shenanigans. It would be preferable for the character to be able to use their favored weapon as soon as possible. I've been on a Magic of Incarnum kick, so I'm going to suggest spending a feat on Shape Soulmeld to get Incarnate Weapon. Normally, the form Incarnate Weapon would take for a good character is a warhammer, but if you're willing to customize here, it could be a whip (again, I suggest whip dagger for lethal damage capability). If you're not, you can ignore the rest of this post.

A soulmeld isn't really a possession; you can't buy or trade it, it can be dispelled/unshaped but you can form it out of incarnum again the next day. Specific to Incarnate Weapon, it can't be sundered and if dropped it returns to your hand (or at your feet) at the beginning of the next turn. Those last two would be nice with a whip of any kind. While you could apply feats like Weapon Focus: Whip normally, you don't need to spend a feat on a weapon proficiency if you go this route (an advantage over the Pyrokineticist's flame lash, unless I'm mistaken). It says explicitly in the description of incarnate weapon that the person who shaped it doesn't suffer from a nonproficiency penalty while wielding it. The Incarnate class normally only grants simple weapon proficiency, while incarnate weapon is normally a martial weapon. You don't seem to be trying to fit in any Exotic Weapon Master or 3.0 Lasher in the build, so EWP shouldn't be a missed prerequisite.

The only requirement for Shape Soulmeld is a Constitution score of 13 or higher. As it is, it will penetrate X/Good damage reduction. but ideally the character could get some essentia so the Incarnate Weapon can gain an enhancement bonus. An Incarnate Weapon whip dagger would still be subject to X/bludgeoning or X/piercing or X/-. The Pyrokineticist's flame lash has the advantage of being energy damage and bypassing DR already, but it doesn't look like you could add your Strength bonus on that.

Edit: I have read a good portion of the Iron Chef Optimaztion thread for Pyrokineticist, and they found the fire lash to be very ambiguously worded. true_shinken had this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8941018&postcount=124) recommending it not be treated as a melee weapon, Amphetryon brought up the possibility that its ranged qualities were a hold-over from 3.0 in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8941281&postcount=128), but it seems for the contest they did treat it as a melee weapon, with people taking power attack for extra fire damage. The Pathfinder version of the prestige class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/pyrokineticist) by Dreamscarred Press very slightly changed the wording on fire lash to specifically treat it like a whip. They also made the prestige class grant proficiency with the whip.

[j_spencer93]

Well two problems with that now. Apostle of peace got cut from the build, but vow of poverty stayed. So it has to be a simple weapon which a whip is not.

The incarnate weapon way does seem the most legal way to do this outside of kineticist, plus its not a lash of fire. So I think i will be heading that way.