Designing a good boss battle

[whisperwind1]

Hey guys I need some advice on how to build my final boss encounter. I'm using the World of Warcraft RPG (which is close to and based on 3.5), and DMing for a party of 4 (though its usually 3 because of scheduling issues).

Anyway I figure that when the fight rolls around, the party is going to be level 7 or 8 (they're lvl 6 currently), so I want to give them a real challenge, but one they have a chance of overcoming. I already know what the final boss is gonna be (i'm building him using character creation since he's a normal human), but i'm undecided on the format of the fight.

This boss has several trusted allies (his family), which could mean that either the fight is a straight him (with minion support of course) vs the party, or a full on party versus party match (with the villain and his crew built as PCs of the same level or slightly higher).

Which would you gentlemen (and women) recommend?

[Brendanicus]

This boss has several trusted allies (his family), which could mean that either the fight is a straight him (with minion support of course) vs the party, or a full on party versus party match (with the villain and his crew built as PCs of the same level or slightly higher).

Which would you gentlemen (and women) recommend?These are both vague ideas. Where would the battle be taking place? What abilities/resources does the boss/family have? What classes are they? Would they know that the PC's are coming? How much forewarning would they have? What is your party like?

[whisperwind1]

These are both vague ideas. Where would the battle be taking place? What abilities/resources does the boss/family have? What classes are they? Would they know that the PC's are coming? How much forewarning would they have? What is your party like?

Lol sorry for the vagueness, I'm just worried some players might frequent the forum.

Ok well the party has an Uncorrupted Necromancer, Forsaken Apothecary and a Warrior who prestige classed into Demon Hunter.

Ideally the final battle takes place in the ruins of the boss' former palace, where his ancestors ruled. The boss and his family rule a criminal syndicate that's comprised of the nobility of a fallen kingdom. Basically all of them are rogues, fighters or a combo of the two (except one who is an arcanist, with the mage path). Yes I'd think they would know the PCs are coming.

[atemu1234]

Lol sorry for the vagueness, I'm just worried some players might frequent the forum.

Ok well the party has an Uncorrupted Necromancer, Forsaken Apothecary and a Warrior who prestige classed into Demon Hunter.

Ideally the final battle takes place in the ruins of the boss' former palace, where his ancestors ruled. The boss and his family rule a criminal syndicate that's comprised of the nobility of a fallen kingdom. Basically all of them are rogues, fighters or a combo of the two (except one who is an arcanist, with the mage path). Yes I'd think they would know the PCs are coming.

Warrior or Fighter?

[whisperwind1]

Warrior or Fighter?

Warrior, we're using the World of Warcraft RPG system exclusively. I don't allow anything from outside of World of Warcraft.

[Nibbens]

You should read this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit?pli=1): It's written for PF but the logic applies for 3.X.

[Elder_Basilisk]

I second the recommendation for the pathfinder guide, however I would add a few things (or re-emphasize)

1. Have meaningful backup. An encounter with a single foe is generally short and uninteresting. It is also much harder to make challenging without being overpowering. So, have other monsters/NPCs in the fight.

2. Have an interesting and interactive setting. The setting should look cool. It should sound cool. But it should also have a meaningful impact on the combat. In a throne room confrontation, for example, a dais with a throne is a cool thing. People can interact with it in a number of ways: They can stand on the steps or the dais for a higher ground bonus. They can hide behind the throne for cover. They could theoretically push the throne over to damage and/or trap opponents. (Mechanics for that would have to be improvised, so you might not want to open that can of worms). If you have chandeliers providing light, they could be perches for flying foes or potentially dropped on the head of people standing under them. A couple hidden alcoves in the rafters for archers might be good too. And there should be an escape route (preferably two) even if you don't plan to have the villain flee. Your plans could change and the players should be able to see at least one of them so that they can take steps to prevent the villain's flight.

3. Ensure that there are developments in the fight. 4th edition D&D did many things wrong (not meaning to start an edition war here, let's just leave it at that), but one good thing they did was have many monsters or encounters change when a key monster was "bloodied" or reached half hit points. That gave the fight an ebb and flow and forced players to adjust to a changing situation. Perhaps the villain sounds the alarm in round 1 and in round 3, his reinforcements arrive to the PCs' rear. Perhaps the villain has a stalwart pact spell that kicks in and gives him DR and other bonuses. Maybe the villain was in the process of binding and negotiating with a devil when the PCs burst in and the devil offers to help the PCs in return for its freedom when he can see that they are having a tough time of it. Or maybe, the villain agrees to the devil's asking price when it becomes clear that he needs the assistance right now. Incorporating one or more changes to the battlefield and combat situation will make for a more dynamic and memorable fight.

[BoutsofInsanity]

This fight is the final battle right? This means there needs to be weight behind the fight. As in, it needs to be personal, dynamic, and symbolic for things greater then the players.

As a writer, if you want to lose your audience, write with logic. If you want to keep your audience, you write with heart.

Different players need a chance to shine in this fight. Your assassin should have the opportunity to mow down mooks silently and swiftly without them realizing he is there.

The Paladin should be able to confront the evil boss in a battle of ideology.

The fighter should show that he is the absolute best with a sword.

And the mage should remind everyone that he is rather busy telling physics to sit down and shut up and can't deal with the mooks.

This is a time for last stands, final charges, epic speeches and clashes of ideals.

Now this is important, you need to figure out what the party's ideals are, and what the bad guy's ideals are, and set the stage so they clash.

For example: The Final Boss believes in honorable combat, strength overcomes all, and that the worst wound is one taken on the back, because it means you were running away from a fight. In direct conflict, the party is a bunch of combat pragmatists. They will cheat, poison, and blow up anything they can't beat in a fight. The stage should be set so that both oppositions have an opportunity to utilize their ideals to the fullest effect. Maybe the big bad waits, surrounded by his help in a mansion. Well if the party elects to burn down the mansion the big bad should come out to meet them, without his fancy fortress of protection. Likewise, if the party elects to enter the mansion, they can fight in the throne room as a final confrontation.

It's all about setting the stage so that the bad guy has his moment to shine, but the players have a huge opportunity to steal his thunder. The Paladin has one last chance to convince the final boss of his wrongness, the rogue has the opportunity to assassinate the bad guy while he is distracted by the fighter, the mage wrecks the evil ritual of evil by using multiple skill checks to wrench arcane control away from the portal of evil while the fighter frantically watches his back.

EMOTION, LAST STANDS, THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT MAKE MEMORABLE BATTLES. The stage must be set so that the gravity of the situation doesn't escape the party.

[whisperwind1]

This fight is the final battle right? This means there needs to be weight behind the fight. As in, it needs to be personal, dynamic, and symbolic for things greater then the players.

As a writer, if you want to lose your audience, write with logic. If you want to keep your audience, you write with heart.

Different players need a chance to shine in this fight. Your assassin should have the opportunity to mow down mooks silently and swiftly without them realizing he is there.

The Paladin should be able to confront the evil boss in a battle of ideology.

The fighter should show that he is the absolute best with a sword.

And the mage should remind everyone that he is rather busy telling physics to sit down and shut up and can't deal with the mooks.

This is a time for last stands, final charges, epic speeches and clashes of ideals.

Now this is important, you need to figure out what the party's ideals are, and what the bad guy's ideals are, and set the stage so they clash.

For example: The Final Boss believes in honorable combat, strength overcomes all, and that the worst wound is one taken on the back, because it means you were running away from a fight. In direct conflict, the party is a bunch of combat pragmatists. They will cheat, poison, and blow up anything they can't beat in a fight. The stage should be set so that both oppositions have an opportunity to utilize their ideals to the fullest effect. Maybe the big bad waits, surrounded by his help in a mansion. Well if the party elects to burn down the mansion the big bad should come out to meet them, without his fancy fortress of protection. Likewise, if the party elects to enter the mansion, they can fight in the throne room as a final confrontation.

It's all about setting the stage so that the bad guy has his moment to shine, but the players have a huge opportunity to steal his thunder. The Paladin has one last chance to convince the final boss of his wrongness, the rogue has the opportunity to assassinate the bad guy while he is distracted by the fighter, the mage wrecks the evil ritual of evil by using multiple skill checks to wrench arcane control away from the portal of evil while the fighter frantically watches his back.

EMOTION, LAST STANDS, THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT MAKE MEMORABLE BATTLES. The stage must be set so that the gravity of the situation doesn't escape the party.

These are great suggestions, although I should stipulate that this is only the final boss of the first Act. Like there's gonna be more after him, and i'm still working out how all the pieces fit together. Also one or two of my players (depending on their mood) are really poor sports about the whole heroic or villainous speech thing. They think that logically, if the villain is making his speech, then they get to stab him while he's doing it, or just make fun of him and not let him finish. The logic i'm told, is that they refuse to take this seriously because they're being artificially forced into listening. It detracts from the specialness of the boss fight actually.

[Surpriser]

These are great suggestions, although I should stipulate that this is only the final boss of the first Act. Like there's gonna be more after him, and i'm still working out how all the pieces fit together. Also one or two of my players (depending on their mood) are really poor sports about the whole heroic or villainous speech thing. They think that logically, if the villain is making his speech, then they get to stab him while he's doing it, or just make fun of him and not let him finish. The logic i'm told, is that they refuse to take this seriously because they're being artificially forced into listening. It detracts from the specialness of the boss fight actually.

In that case, you have three possibilities:
1) Let the boss start his speech but give the PCs a chance to use this to their advantage. For example, while he is speaking, the rogue sneaks around his back and locks the doors for reinforcements or escape (or just sets up a sneak attack). This is basically giving the PCs a time advantage. Have the boss react appropriately if he is interrupted. As soon as the PCs take any obviously hostile action, the boss is angry or angry or disappointed that they ruined his great moment and strikes back.
2) Ensure that the PCs are unable to interrupt the speech. A caster boss could use spells like ghost sound or other illusions to speak to the PCs even while they search the castle for his real location. Works great to make the PCs hate the boss :smallbiggrin:
3) Characterize the boss in a way that he realizes the stupidity of long monologues. As soon as the PCs enter the room, he greets them and immediately attacks (or he does so as soon as he realizes that a fight is unavoidable if he had planned to argue with them) You could even have him subvert the monologue by having him set the PCs up for a trap while he is talking. He only seems oblivious while henchmen sneakily surround the PCs.