Outsiders in FR realms; death?

[j_spencer93]

Ok my players keep mentioning this to me (in response to the vow feats and in general discussions). In the FR novels, outsiders do not die when they are "killed" instead being sent back to their home planes. At least in every book i own, which is a little over twenty. So, I am curious, is this supported by ANY book at all in the actual game?

[Bronk]

Well, the rule covering demons dying outside their home plane is in FCII, page 9. It looks like they might be completely reformed, but might be punished by reforming as a lower class demon instead.

[j_spencer93]

Ok thank you so that does carry over into the game.
Well then here is another question which I am partial to say no on but smile at the player thinking of it; does that count as it dying? If not will then it doesn't violate his vow of peace. Actually the player using this build and another have argued this. I see their point; mechanics wise and fluff wise.

[torrasque666]

Well think about it. Outsiders are (usually) literally made of the stuff of their home plane. Demons are made of raw CE energy/matter/stuff. Angels are made of pure good given material form. And since you can never really destroy energy, it only makes sense that an outsider would return to their plane to reform. Maybe not as the same individual though. Which is kinda like dying.

[Red Fel]

Ok thank you so that does carry over into the game.
Well then here is another question which I am partial to say no on but smile at the player thinking of it; does that count as it dying? If not will then it doesn't violate his vow of peace. Actually the player using this build and another have argued this. I see their point; mechanics wise and fluff wise.

Vow of Peace doesn't just stop you from killing something. It stops you from causing harm to a living thing. Constructs and Undead are explicit exceptions, but Outsiders are still considered living. Even if we accept that "killing" an Outsider doesn't actually "kill" it (which I'm not sure I accept), the Vow doesn't stop you from killing, it stops you from harming at all. If you "kill" an Outsider, in any sense, you have most certainly harmed it.

As an aside, I find that players who search for loopholes in Exalted feats probably shouldn't be using them. Exalted feats require a super-special code of conduct. The sort of character who would take one is not the sort of character who would look for a work-around. Further, because they require such a strenuous level of Goodness, I'm reluctant to let players take them unless they can be extremely conscientious about roleplaying them well.

[Bronk]

Well, looking at that particular page, it definitely lists this happening when the demon dies. Then it's essence reforms back in the abyss and forms a 'new' demon (or lesser demon if the abyss is punishing it for failure). So, according to that book, it has definitely died.

I see where your players are coming from though. A number of times in the Drizz't series and other drow series of novels, a demon will get killed, then immediately reform back on its home plane, super peeved, but be unable to return to exact revenge for a hundred years.

On the other other hand, if they're thinking about summoned demons, those wouldn't always be 'real' demons from the abyss. 'Calling' spells would bring in a real one (planar ally, gate... etc.?), but 'summoning' spells whip up what is essentially a fake. That might not trigger a vow of peace...

[j_spencer93]

I haven't allowed this in my game I was just curious. Most of the book i own are the drizz't books but lately i have been branching out and they are not the only ones that seem to do this. ALTHOUGH i do notice it is almost 100% dependent on the story and what it serves lol.

As for vow of peace, I know that it does.

[atemu1234]

I haven't allowed this in my game I was just curious. Most of the book i own are the drizz't books but lately i have been branching out and they are not the only ones that seem to do this. ALTHOUGH i do notice it is almost 100% dependent on the story and what it serves lol.

As for vow of peace, I know that it does.

The vow series is a little stupid, anyways.

[j_spencer93]

I actually like the vows (although this particular one is bad). They are very very strict though for the benefits most give.

[Psyren]

Vow of Peace doesn't just stop you from killing something. It stops you from causing harm to a living thing. Constructs and Undead are explicit exceptions, but Outsiders are still considered living. Even if we accept that "killing" an Outsider doesn't actually "kill" it (which I'm not sure I accept), the Vow doesn't stop you from killing, it stops you from harming at all. If you "kill" an Outsider, in any sense, you have most certainly harmed it.

As an aside, I find that players who search for loopholes in Exalted feats probably shouldn't be using them. Exalted feats require a super-special code of conduct. The sort of character who would take one is not the sort of character who would look for a work-around. Further, because they require such a strenuous level of Goodness, I'm reluctant to let players take them unless they can be extremely conscientious about roleplaying them well.

All of this. If they can't actually behave exalted and are set to "lawyer their way into heaven" then just deny the feat(s) entirely.

[j_spencer93]

I agree with that. This character is going to end up playing a character who deals no harm except to constructs and undead so i figured it wouldn't hurt to see what others thought. Besides that little bit of info intrigued me.

[Zaq]

It's not at all what the rules say, but I could see a GM building an exception into Vow of Peace for evil outsiders. They are, after all, literally made out of evil. Exactly what that means is up to the GM, but if the GM wants to play fiends as being literally evil incarnate and therefore not capable of achieving redemption (or even restraint, really) and undeserving of mercy, that makes sense to me. (Blah blah succubus Paladin blah whatever. I don't view that sort of thing as being the default.)

To me, evil outsiders aren't people. Elementals are people, monstrous humanoids are people, "savage" humanoids are people, and even some aberrations and some intelligent undead are people, because you can talk to them and reason with them and maybe convince them to leave you alone. But fiends? You can't reason with a demon. You can't talk them out of doing bad things. You can't get them to temper their natural impulses or appeal to a sense of fairness or their better nature, because they're literally made out of evil. They might not be actively killing you right this second (even demons aren't mindless killing machines 100% of the time), but you can't reason with them and get them to really act Neutral even if they think Evil. I'm totally okay with a GM ruling that creatures literally made out of evil are undeserving of mercy even from someone who has sworn a vow of peace.

I recognize that my view of this isn't what's in the books, so you probably won't agree with all of it. And I'm not saying that I expect every GM to view things the same way I do. But this is what makes sense to me.

[j_spencer93]

I think i might tell him it is ok to be lethal with being who are literally tagged as [evil] only after he still gives them the chance to redeem. Because it does seem a little dumb, that for instance, a pit fiend attacks you, you can't hurt him. A good character is meant to oppose evil...this must be why all the good guys aren't exalted. It makes evil look stronger and thus more would join them lol jk jk

[Psyren]

It's not at all what the rules say, but I could see a GM building an exception into Vow of Peace for evil outsiders. They are, after all, literally made out of evil. Exactly what that means is up to the GM, but if the GM wants to play fiends as being literally evil incarnate and therefore not capable of achieving redemption (or even restraint, really) and undeserving of mercy, that makes sense to me. (Blah blah succubus Paladin blah whatever. I don't view that sort of thing as being the default.)

To me, evil outsiders aren't people. Elementals are people, monstrous humanoids are people, "savage" humanoids are people, and even some aberrations and some intelligent undead are people, because you can talk to them and reason with them and maybe convince them to leave you alone. But fiends? You can't reason with a demon. You can't talk them out of doing bad things. You can't get them to temper their natural impulses or appeal to a sense of fairness or their better nature, because they're literally made out of evil. They might not be actively killing you right this second (even demons aren't mindless killing machines 100% of the time), but you can't reason with them and get them to really act Neutral even if they think Evil. I'm totally okay with a GM ruling that creatures literally made out of evil are undeserving of mercy even from someone who has sworn a vow of peace.

I recognize that my view of this isn't what's in the books, so you probably won't agree with all of it. And I'm not saying that I expect every GM to view things the same way I do. But this is what makes sense to me.

Here's the thing though - nobody is saying you can't kill fiends (even "temporarily") and still be a capital-G Good person. But if you're the kind of person that is going to resort to that, well, Vow of Peace isn't for you. It really is intended to be the most narrow path possible, and they spell that out right in the feat. The chance of redeeming a fiend may be 0.0000001%, but by taking a Vow of Peace, you are saying that you believe you can achieve that probability and neutralize it without destroying it long enough for that eventuality to come to pass, whether it takes 50 years, 500, or even 5,000.

Now we can argue until the rulebooks crumble that the benefits of the Vows are not nearly good enough to warrant such ridiculous odds, but the spirit behind them is nevertheless clear.

[j_spencer93]

Here's the thing though - nobody is saying you can't kill fiends (even "temporarily") and still be a capital-G Good person. But if you're the kind of person that is going to resort to that, well, Vow of Peace isn't for you. It really is intended to be the most narrow path possible, and they spell that out right in the feat. The chance of redeeming a fiend may be 0.0000001%, but by taking a Vow of Peace, you are saying that you believe you can achieve that probability and neutralize it without destroying it long enough for that eventuality to come to pass, whether it takes 50 years, 500, or even 5,000.

Now we can argue until the rulebooks crumble that the benefits of the Vows are not nearly good enough to warrant such ridiculous odds, but the spirit behind them is nevertheless clear.

I understand that. Just seems a little dumb honestly. I will make you redeem! "But i am literally made out of evil..." So...REPENT! "Ya I am just going to use this vorpal sword to remove your head now" I said repent!!! "Ya....ok..." REPE....

I get the idea, I really really do. Hell i even like the idea, it just doesn't really make much sense in a world with creatures of pure evil, literally made of evil, walk the planet...

[Red Fel]

A Vow of Peace person doesn't necessarily seek to redeem everything. Certainly not Evil Outsiders.

But Vow of Peace doesn't just mean that the person is ultra-Good. It means that their particular view of ultra-Good is to never harm a living thing. The fact that Evil Outsiders are literally made of badness is irrelevant. Vow of Peace heroes don't want to destroy Evil, they want to embrace peace, and harming something that can experience pain - even if it's made up entirely of nastiness - is antithetical to that objective.

Vow of Peace isn't taken by someone who wants to crusade against the forces of Evil. It's not taken by someone who has any desire to fight anything. It's taken by someone who wants to avoid conflict at all costs. Yes, even conflict with Evil Outsiders. Such a person may or may not seek to redeem those opposed to him; he shouldn't have to. Vow of Peace is not inherently coupled with a desire to save things; it's simply coupled with an ultra-Good alignment.

Short version: You took Vow of Peace. It doesn't matter if Evil Outsiders are made of concentrated Evil, you still don't get to hurt them. Cut your hair, take a bath, and get a job, you hippie.

[Psyren]

I understand that. Just seems a little dumb honestly. I will make you redeem! "But i am literally made out of evil..." So...REPENT! "Ya I am just going to use this vorpal sword to remove your head now" I said repent!!! "Ya....ok..." REPE....

I get the idea, I really really do. Hell i even like the idea, it just doesn't really make much sense in a world with creatures of pure evil, literally made of evil, walk the planet...

But even then, there are solutions beyond killing them. Dismissal (perhaps with a Geas not to come back) for instance, or sealing them away somewhere like an iron flask. None of those would violate your vow.

Again, you can skip that vow and slay demons and devils left and right without hesitation without ever impacting your alignment. You are quite literally not being judged for finding such a Vow to be silly or unreasonable. Just don't say "I value all forms of life" and then expect to reap the spiritual benefits of that stance while harming/killing forms of life.

[j_spencer93]

A Vow of Peace person doesn't necessarily seek to redeem everything. Certainly not Evil Outsiders.

But Vow of Peace doesn't just mean that the person is ultra-Good. It means that their particular view of ultra-Good is to never harm a living thing. The fact that Evil Outsiders are literally made of badness is irrelevant. Vow of Peace heroes don't want to destroy Evil, they want to embrace peace, and harming something that can experience pain - even if it's made up entirely of nastiness - is antithetical to that objective.

Vow of Peace isn't taken by someone who wants to crusade against the forces of Evil. It's not taken by someone who has any desire to fight anything. It's taken by someone who wants to avoid conflict at all costs. Yes, even conflict with Evil Outsiders. Such a person may or may not seek to redeem those opposed to him; he shouldn't have to. Vow of Peace is not inherently coupled with a desire to save things; it's simply coupled with an ultra-Good alignment.

Short version: You took Vow of Peace. It doesn't matter if Evil Outsiders are made of concentrated Evil, you still don't get to hurt them. Cut your hair, take a bath, and get a job, you hippie.

They can beat undead (some of which are intelligent) and constructs (once again). Just adding that.

[j_spencer93]

But even then, there are solutions beyond killing them. Dismissal (perhaps with a Geas not to come back) for instance, or sealing them away somewhere like an iron flask. None of those would violate your vow.

Again, you can skip that vow and slay demons and devils left and right without hesitation without ever impacting your alignment. You are quite literally not being judged for finding such a Vow to be silly or unreasonable. Just don't say "I value all forms of life" and then expect to reap the spiritual benefits of that stance while harming/killing forms of life.

Banishing is my solution to demons in the game. And Ya I see the no harming life thing. Was just pointing out my view on the feat. It turns you int gandhi. Which means thankfully players can't get nuclear weapons in this game...

[Psyren]

They can beat undead (some of which are intelligent) and constructs (once again). Just adding that.

Which is why he and I said "living things." Undead and Constructs aren't - no Con score.

[j_spencer93]

uh that wasn't in response to you lol. And do intelligent undead feel pain? I would assume no. Anyways thanks, i think. I forgot the point of this since my build currently is driving me insane.

[Psyren]

uh that wasn't in response to you lol.

I'm only allowed to respond to posts directed at me? What an odd concept for a discussion forum :smalltongue:

[j_spencer93]

I'm only allowed to respond to posts directed at me? What an odd concept for a discussion forum :smalltongue:

Well yes you are damn, what do you think this is, America?

[the_david]

This is from the PHB: "A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again."

So it's not really dead, but definitely harmed... What about Shadow Conjurations? And are there (more) exceptions?

[j_spencer93]

unfortunately you can't cause harm or damage, not just kill. So still breaks it, lame i know