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Stormcrow
2007-04-15, 11:07 PM
Can you sneak attack with unarmed strikes?

OzymandiasVolt
2007-04-15, 11:09 PM
Yes. You can indeed sneak attack using unarmed strikes.

In fact, here's a quote from the SRD's entry on the Sneak Attack ability:
" With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage) instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty. "

Ninja Chocobo
2007-04-15, 11:10 PM
You can Sneak Attack with virtually anything, even spells.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-04-15, 11:12 PM
Yup. So a rogue using a level 0 Ray of Frost can do 1d3+xd6 cold damage on. Not bad at all.

Stormcrow
2007-04-15, 11:18 PM
Just thinking about a weaponless feinting rogue.

TheOOB
2007-04-16, 12:18 AM
Just thinking about a weaponless feinting rogue.

It should be noted that unarmed combat is usually a good deal worse then armed combat, and feinting is rarely that great of a combat stratagy.

Armed combat has a higher base damage then unarmed combat, doesn't require a feat and/or monk multiclassing, and it's much easier to enchant a weapon then a fist.

As for feinting, your giving up an action to make an opposed check that is difficult to make agienst a skilled fighter (they get sense motive and BAB), to get a single sneak attack. You are much better off getting a bag of tricks or something to create flanking situations to get multiple rounds of full-attack sneak attacks.

Lolzords
2007-04-16, 04:36 AM
Yup. It doesn't matter with your sneak attack what you attack with.

Even if it's a 1d3 damage like an unarmed strike, or a 1d4 like a dagger, you still get the extra #d6 damage.

JaronK
2007-04-16, 06:18 AM
You can sneak attack with anything that requires an attack roll and does damage.

JaronK

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-16, 06:20 AM
With spells that do ability damage, would you then do ability damage with your sneak attack?

Rigeld2
2007-04-16, 06:26 AM
no its negative energy hp damage

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-16, 07:32 AM
As for feinting, your giving up an action to make an opposed check that is difficult to make agienst a skilled fighter (they get sense motive and BAB), to get a single sneak attack.
Of course, assuming you max out Bluff, you have three more ranks than an equal level fighter has BAB, fighter types rarely have ranks in Sense Motive, you get your Charisma bonus, and fighter types rarely have high Wisdom. So that puts you with more than a +3 advantage over most fighter types with equal level.

Sure, it doesn't seem like much, but one of the design assumptions of what constitutes a "challenging DC" is a 50% success rate, and we're starting with a base 65%. So, from a game theory perspective, the rogue is doing pretty good.

As to only one attack... Well, rogues shouldn't be standing toe-to-toe with fighter types. They're too squishy. They should be using hit and run tactics that deny them full attacks anyway. Of course, the ideal hit and run tactic would be Spring Attack rather than feinting. Otherwise, it's too easy for the fighter to retaliate.

It's still a good option if you can't do as much damage with a full attack anyway. When fighting an intelligent combatant, flanking situations, no matter how they're created, can easily fall through, too. It is also good when your opponent does have an amazingly high Dexterity. If your second and third attacks miss due to the Dex bonus on AC, even with the flanking bonus, you might as well feint to help remove the chance of your highest attack bonus missing.

Person_Man
2007-04-16, 09:43 AM
Feinting is a very inefficient way of qualifying for Sneak Attack. You're wasting part of your action, when you could be making a full attack.

Better ways to qualify for Sneak Attack include:

1) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures.

2) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap.

3) Still More Flanking: Invest in a lot of Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

4) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no
reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

5) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead.

6) Skill Tricks: Check out the Complete Scoundrel.

7) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects. Once your enemy is panicked, then you just have to corner him or Grapple him or otherwise immobilize him so that he cowers.

8) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus.

9) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

So, in short, there is no reason to waste a feat and your Move action to get a Sneak Attack.

For your build, I suggest Rogue 5/Disciple of the Eye 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=2)/Swashbuckler X,

Disciple of the Eye requires unarmed strike, and gets Flurry of Blows and Fast Movement without the need for Monk levels. More importantly, you get Frightful Attack whenever you make an attack roll. Remember, Fear effects stack.

Swash gives you Weapon Finesse for free, and Int bonus to damage.

The Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel makes your Rogue and Swash levels stack for Sneak Attack, Grace, and Dodge Bonus.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-16, 10:00 AM
As to only one attack... Well, rogues shouldn't be standing toe-to-toe with fighter types. They're too squishy. They should be using hit and run tactics that deny them full attacks anyway. Of course, the ideal hit and run tactic would be Spring Attack rather than feinting. Otherwise, it's too easy for the fighter to retaliate.
They are too squishy it's true, but getting into melee is a huge risk period ... if you aren't doing real damage (a single attack ain't it, with or without sneak attack dice) you don't belong in melee. That's the problem with spring attack really, even if you have the feat just picking up a bow is often a better idea than using it. It is such a ridiculously underpowered feat ... so many prerequisites and it doesn't even allow you to take arbitrary standard actions. If you want to make a hit and run character get a fly speed and use flyby attack (use it with maneuvers or dual strike, or something ... anything better than taking spring attack).

You don't belong in melee if all you ever do there is making single attack actions.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-16, 10:07 AM
1) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures.
Requires someone able and willing to do so.


2) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap.
Running around with a pack of canines ruins your stealth mojo.


3) Still More Flanking: Invest in a lot of Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.
Tumbling around uses up time and actions as well. It does limit mobility to a certain extent in that it costs double movement.

At low levels, there is risk of failing the Tumble checks.

Additionally, a flanked opponent will do all he can to relieve himself of that status.


7) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects.
In my experience, most of them have Hit Die limits that keep them from being useful against non-mooks.


8) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus.
Stunning someone typically takes a standard action and lasts no more than a round or two. Unless you have a friend doing this for you, it's not necessarily much more efficient than feinting.


You don't belong in melee if all you ever do there is making single attack actions.
Of course, sometimes you don't have much choice.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-16, 10:20 AM
Investing 3 lackluster feats for something you do rarely is a bad idea.

Person_Man
2007-04-16, 11:08 AM
Investing 3 lackluster feats for something you do rarely is a bad idea.

Agreed.

I think Shhal and I are having this debate on this thread as well (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41089).