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Kitsuneymg
2015-04-20, 07:16 PM
20150421

Combat Medic is now a tactical feat
Reduced scaling on Cure spells to instead treat as max caster level
Added non-perfect chance to dispel conditions instead of always working
Added dazzled as a condition removed by CLW
Changed surge when cured
Added Chasubles of healing





When I first started playing 3.0, I played it much like I played 2e. That is, the cleric would heal people in combat. I soon found out that such a tactic didn't work well at all. It was a major disappointment to build a character to do something that the class your chose sounds like it should be good at, only to have it fail utterly in this regard. This house rule is a long over-due collection of rules I have developed and adapted from many different sources in an attempt to allow a person who wants to be a healer to have a noticeable impact on the game. It also provides options for almost anyone to contribute to healing in some way.

I'm hoping to get feedback on what is broken and what is not good enough. This is a massive power up compared to traditional 3.x healing, so people expecting to see anything like the healing we have now will be shocked. This collection of healing rules is posted here for discussion, but the master document lives here (http://partyhor.se/houserules/healing.md).

Thanks for your time and I hope you find this useful.

It's no secret that healing is both a role no one wants to play and not very useful in the middle of combat (outside of the spell *Heal* and *Heal, Mass*.) Despite healing being an important part of the game, it's very hard to do while still feeling useful. The addition of spontaneous *cure* spells has somewhat alleviated the feeling of being a first aid kit, due to the way damage and hitpoints scale vs the cure line of spells, it still doesn't keep up. Even a dedicated healing cleric will be hard pressed to keep his party members at full HP when his best *cure* spell heals 25 on average.

This is not a houserule to enable healing to dominate the game, nor should it be viewed as a way to make casters yet more powerful. Instead, it is a way to allow players to play a healer and actually make a difference.

This houserule sets out to enable three things. The first, to make healing in combat a viable option at all levels so that healer feel like they are useful. The second, allow a party to get by without having to have a dedicated healer and without eating CLW wands like they were candy. The third, to allow any spell caster to play the role of healer and play it well, without forcing them to sacrifice a lot of potential power.

Spells in the *Cure* line of spells heal 1d8/spell level +1/caster level with a max of 5/spell level. This means that the best cure spell (critical wounds) heals on average 25 (4d8 + 7) hitpoints when the cleric becomes able to cast it. A paltry sum that is a waste of an action as melee combatants can typically deal several times that amount in a round. A forth level spell should have a greater impact than that on combat.

Things are not much better outside of combat. Due to the way spell costs scale, a wand of *Cure Light Wounds* is the most efficient healing item available in pathfinder. There is never a reason to move up to higher wands simply because they are not worth it from a GP/HP view. This doesn't even take into account the gold-tax aspect of buying wands nor the way it makes the fantastic mundane. It's very hard to remember this is supposed to be magic when you have a sack full of these wands.

The first order of business is to fix the scaling of these spells. The second is to give some incentive for a player to cast them instead of using wands. The third is to give some reason to use higher level cure spells at all.

Looking at the damage that pathfinder creatures can dish out at various levels on a successful hit, *cure* spells can be made relevant by always treating them as though they were cast by at their maximum level for the purposes of determining how much damage they heal. In addition, a caster adds his or her cast stat mod to the amount healed. Thus, a *cure light wounds* cast by a cleric always heals 1d8 + 5 + Wis modifier. And *cure light wounds, mass* heals 1d8 + 25 + Wis modifier. All of this damage is considered a variable, numeric effect, so empower spell will apply to it.

In addition to healing damage, *cure* spells will now also have a chance remove some negative conditions. The conditions that may be removed are listed below. Each time a *cure* spell is cast on a target that suffers from the listed conditions, the caster makes a dispel check as outlined in *dispel magic*. If successful, the condition is removed. Non-magic conditions that do not otherwise have a removal DC use a DC of 11.

Table 1 - Casting Healing spells from a spell slot


Cure Light Wounds
1d8+5
dazzled


Cure Moderate Wounds
2d8+10
sickened, fatigued, (plus CLW)


Cure Serious Wounds
3d8+15
blinded, deafened, (plus CMW)


Cure Critical Wounds
4d8+20
nauseated, exhausted, (plus CSW)


Breath of Life
5d8+25
(death: see spell description)


Cleanse
5d8+25
(see spell description)/td]


[td]Pillar of Life
2d8+20
sickened, fatigued, (plus CLW)


Cure Light Wounds, Mass
1d8+25
as CLW


Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass
2d8+30
as CMW


Cure Serious Wounds, Mass
3d8+35
as CSW


Regenerate
4d8+35
reattach limbs


Cure Critical Wounds, Mass
4d8+40
as CCW





Hitpoints are a misunderstood, to some degree, abstraction. They are not a measure of how much 'meat' a character has, but rather a combination of physical toughness, training, ability to dodge, and just plain luck that must be overcome to actually harm a creature. The concept of hitpoint recovery being a slow process as wounds heal naturally is at odds with this interpretation. There is nothing about the concept of hitpoints that requires magic to recover.

Healing surges allow for all characters to be somewhat responsible for their own downtime healing. This ability can really take the pressure off your casters, extend the adventuring day, and nearly remove the reliance on wands of cure light wounds. They allow a perfectly functioning party without the need for a "healer" of any stripe.

Basics

A healing surge takes one of two forms, a kick of adrenaline in the midst of combat that overcomes fatigue and energizes the character, or simple rest and relaxation that revitalizes a character. When used, a healing surge allows a character to regain a quarter of their hitpoint total (rounded down.) A player may not use her healing surge to gain HP beyond her maximum. If she does not need all of the HP, they are wasted. HP from a surge cannot be saved until later.

Setting Up

Every character gets a number of healing surges per day based on their base class and constitution. The table below gives the number of surges a character gets based on his class. Multiclassed characters use their most numerous levels to determine their number of surges. Prestige classes do not provide healing surges. A character receives a number of surges each day equal to this base number plus his Con mod.

For character classes not listed, the default is to start with half the size of their hitdie and then modify it to reflect how combative a class is. In general, classes who have six or more levels of arcane, psionic, or psychic casting should have one less surge than this number indicates. Some classes gain extra surges based on their assumed role. Magus, Monk, and Warpriest are three examples.

A character with ranks in Heal grant free surges to characters. See the heal skill below.

Table: Number of Healing Surges


Class
Surges
Class
Surges
Class
Surges


Alchemist
4
Arcanist
2
Barbarian
6


Bard
3
Bloodrager
5
Brawler
5


Cavalier
5
Cleric
4
Druid
4


Fighter
5
Gunslinger
5
Hunter
4


Inquisitor
4
Investigator
4
Kineticist
3


Magnus
5
Medium
4
Mesmerist
3


Monk
5
Occultist
3
Oracle
4


Paladin
5
Psychic
2
Ranger
5


Rogue
4
Shaman
4
Skald
3


Slayer
4
Spiritualist
3
Sorcerer
2


Summoner
2
Swashbuckler
5
Warpriest
5


Witch
2
Wizard
2





Using a Surge

There are a few instances in which you can use a healing surge. Each of them will be described in detail below. No matter what condition allows you to use a healing surge, you don't have to use a healing surge, and you must still have surges in order to use one. That is to say, for example, if you have already used your daily allotment of healing surges you can't take a second wind.

Second Wind

A character can take a standard action, which does not provoke an attack of opportunity, to use their "Second Wind", allowing them to take a healing surge. This can only be done once per encounter. There are no rolls or checks for taking a second wind.

During a Cure Spell

If a character is the target of a cure spell, they may spend a healing surge as a free action to double the amount healed by the spell.

Short Rest

If you are doing something considered non-stressful, such as camping, riding a cart, or even walking or riding at a leisurely pace, you may spend a healing surge. The DM should adjudicate how long after a fight a character must wait before using a surge, but a good rule of thumb is at least ten minutes.

Camping for the Night

If you have decided to camp for the night, you can take one full hour, and spend as many healing surges as you would like. If you are interrupted before the hour is complete by anything deemed stressful (a random encounter, for example) you gain no hit points, but none of the daily uses are expended, so you may try again.

Companions

Familiars do not gain their own surges. They may use a surge from their master's pool. When they do so, the surge heals 25% of their hitpoints, not their master's.

Animal companions gain 2 base surges per day. They gain extra surges from their con modifier, just like PCs.

Eidolons do not gain any surges.


The heal skill can also be used together with surges to allow for completely mundane healing with no magic needed. Add the following to the heal skill:

A character with one rank of heal may tend to a single patient for one minute one per day. Doing so grants that patient an extra healing surge that must be used immediately. For every three ranks of heal beyond the first, the character may tend to one additional character every day. No one may benefit from being tended to more than once per hour.


Feats define characters. A feat should have a major impact on how your chassis is preceived by everyone else. Fixing feats is beyond the scope of this article, but the following feat should allow any caster to fulfill the "healer" archetype well.


Combat Medic (Tactical/General)

You can use healing magic with scarcely more than a thought.
Prerequisites: 1 rank of heal or Healing Domain
Benefits: This feat allows the use of three abilities.

Close Wounds Whenever an ally is injured, you may cast a *cure* spell as an immediate action (assuming you have an immediate action to use). The spell's range is changed to close if it was touch, it heals half its normal amount, and cannot be used to harm undead. You may choose to prevent this amount of damage to your target instead of healing. Prevented damage is treated as if it were never dealt, thus, this spell can be used to prevent a character from dying by falling below his negative Con score. If the damage from an attack is prevented completely, then the attack is treated as a miss and no conditions or effects that require it to hit are applied to the target.

Preventative Medicine You may charge a living creature with positive energy so that future wounds are healed immediately. As a full round action, you may cast a *cure* spell. Instead of healing the target or targets, you grant a number of temporary hitpoints equal to half the amount that the spell normally heals. These hitpoints do not stack with any other temporary hitpoints. You simply use whichever amount is higher. These hitpoints last for 1 round/level.

Healing Rhythm The round after you cast a *cure* spell, you may cast another *cure* spell of the same level or lower as a swift action.

Special: A character with the healing domain may give up his healing domain granted powers and ability to prepare Healing domain spells in his domain slot to take this feat as a bonus feat without having to meet its prerequisites.

A cure spell is any Conjuration(Healing) spell that has "cure" in the name. In addition, your DM may include the following spells as cure spells: Breath of Life, Regenerate, Cleanse, Pillar of Light.


Soul of the Surgeon (General)

You are truly a healer at heart and it expresses itself in your magic.
Prerequisites: 1 rank of heal, ability to cast spells.
All cure spells are automatically added to your spell list and list of spells known (if spontaneous caster) or your spellbook (or similar item, if prepared) as soon as you can cast spells of that level. Spontaneous casters may not learn another spell in place of these spells. They do not count against any limits you have to the number of spells you know or may learn at a given level. You may chose to lose any prepared spell to cast a cure spell of the equivalent level or lower. This applies even if you channel negative energy.

Special: A cure spell is any Conjuration(Healing) spell that has "cure" in the name. In addition, your DM may include the following spells as cure spells: Breath of Life, Regenerate, Cleanse, Pillar of Light.


Extra Surge (Combat)

You heal at a rapid rate.
Benefits: Gain two extra healing surges each day.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. An animal may take this feat.




Chasuble of Healing
Cost: 4,420
Body: Throat
Caster Level: 6th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 18) conjuration
Activation: —
Weight: —

This long strip of gold and white cloth is unadorned. Indeed, all dyes and dirt and grim fall away from the cloth.

While wearing a chasuble of healing, all your Conjuration(Healing) spells that heal damage, heal an additional 1d8+5 hit points.

Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Cure Moderate Wounds.

cost to create: 2210 gp; 3 days.


Chasuble of Healing, Greater

Cost: 10,800
Body: Throat
Caster Level: 9th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) conjuration
Activation: —
Weight: —

This long strip of gold and white cloth is unadorned, save for angelic runes that seem to form from reflected light and drift about its surface.

As s chasuble of healing, except the bonus to your Conjuration(Healing) spells is 2d8 + 10.

Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Cure Critical Wounds.

cost to create: 5,400 gp; 6 days.


Healing Belt, Greater
Cost: 4000
Body Slot: Waist
Caster Level: 13th
Aura: Strong; (DC 22) conjuration
Activation: — and standard (command)
Weight: 1 lbs

This broad, worked leather belt is studded with three rubies.

While wearing a greater healing belt, you gain a +5 competence bonus on Heal checks and may tend to one additional patient per day. You also gain two additional healing surges. With a touch and a command, you may transfer one of these surges to another character, who then uses them as a free action.

In addition, the belt has three charges, renewed each day at dawn. Spending one or more charges allows you to channel positive energy and heal damage with a touch.

1 charge: Heals 25% of touched creatures hitpoints to a maximum of 25 HP.
3 charges: Heals 50% of touched creatures hitpoints to a maximum of 50 HP.

Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, heal.

cost to create: 2500 gp; 3 days.

LibraryOgre
2015-04-20, 07:20 PM
Take a look at your table under the Cure Wounds; several of your maximums are listed in d6s, not the d8s you're using, and you reference back to CLW for conditions, when CLW does no conditions.

Kitsuneymg
2015-04-20, 07:23 PM
Thanks.

I'm so used to typing out stuff in d6s I guess my fingers drove themself :smallredface:.

The references to CLW should be CMW. Can't believe I didn't catch this on one of my edit passes e.e

LibraryOgre
2015-04-20, 08:08 PM
Thanks.

I'm so used to typing out stuff in d6s I guess my fingers drove themself :smallredface:.

The references to CLW should be CMW. Can't believe I didn't catch this on one of my edit passes e.e

It happens. Now does this interact with the secondary function of healing spells, undead damage?

Seerow
2015-04-20, 08:14 PM
The problem with your +Xd8/level scaling method is that it means most of the time you are going to have spells of two different spell levels doing practically the same thing. This is the problem I ran into with most methods of caster level scaling. I mean between levels 3 and 6 the difference between CLW and CMW is 1d8 worth of healing. That's so minimal it's laughable. I honestly think it's better to divorce scaling from caster level.

I do like your list of condition removal based on cure spells. I feel like it might nerf debuffing too much, but I'd like to play with it and see before saying for sure.

Regarding healing surges, I am actually glad to see someone else out there playing 3.5/PF actually likes the concept and wants to continue using them. I am not so sure I like your keeping the tradition of healing surges varying by class. I can see giving some classes a free class feature at certain levels to boost it... but you seem to have already run into the problems of having class based healing surges in a non-4e world where you can multiclass freely. Because a Wizard can totally have a single level in Fighter and pick up 4 extra healing surges, which is a pretty big deal. Given how much PF in general tries to discourage dipping, this seems like a really bad thing.

Combat Healer is a really powerful feat. Giving free quickened cures is cool, but also giving all cure spells as spells known for free is over the top. It's a one feat stop to turn literally any caster into an amazing healer tossing out a quickened heal every round. That benefit really needs to be split off into a second feat. It also might be cool to have a line of feats that provide different metamagics to your cure, but you choose one to use each round. So this round you quicken a spell and attack the bad guy. Next round you use your standard action to Maximize a cure. The following round you get Reach spell to cure an ally on the other side of the battlefield. And so on. Give a little more variety to the dedicated healer types.


By the way since you are working with Pathfinder specifically, have you thought at all about Lay on Hands, Channel Energy, and other similar effects? I have heard they are generally effective healing options (especially the Paladin with swift action lay on hands).



Anyway, very recently I posted my homebrew Healing stuff as part of an attempt to cut down on mandatory magic items in the campaign. I hope you don't mind if I am going to ramble a little bit about my thoughts and the solutions I went with in the spoiler box below. If you do mind, don't click the spoiler.

The basic version is I added healing surges (healing for 25% of hp per use during down time, much like yours). The minor differences are I used a base 3 for all characters, and limited them a bit more by making it so base recovery rate is 1 healing surge per day. (mostly due to issues with 4e characters going from death's door to full recovered after 1 nights rest. Restricting surge recovery means it can still take a few days to a week to fully recover if you get beaten down badly enough in one day, but gives much greater durability in the course of a single day).

The two more major changes (and things relevant to you) that you may want to consider are:
1) Cure Spells are 1d8+5 per spell level. No caster level scaling. CLW is always 1d8+5, CCW is always 4d8+20. The much higher chunk of set healing at the level the spell comes online helps differentiate the spells better and keep them more relevant.

Also worth noting: The mass cure spells become really useful under this system. CLW Mass now heals 1d8+30, CCW Mass heals 4d8+40. Whereas normally, with the cap of 30-40, nobody is ever going to get a caster level high enough to care and make those spells worth casting.

2) I also allowed for spending a healing surge when hit with a cure wounds spell, but instead of gaining 25% of max HP, I made it double the effect of the cure spell. This makes which cure spell you cast more important. At level 7, 4d8+20 hp may already be enough cover more than half your hit points. Using a surge with that will let a typical character bounce from death's door to full health. At later levels, it loses effectiveness (at least your surge value will eventually outpace what you gain from the cure spell), but by then Heal has come online, and even ignoring that, at any level getting a shot of ~80hp (CCW) or ~120hp (Mass CCW) is a noticable gain and will save lives.

Note: I actually let these changes stand for consumables. a Wand of CLW is still going to be weaker on average than a wand of lesser vigor, and surge value outpaces what you gain from using a surge on CLW by the time you hit level 5 or 6 for most characters. But more to the point I made my changes with the intention of reducing magic item availability, and I want any consumables they DO find to feel meaningful. Having a Cure Critical Wounds potion in your back pocket actually mean something is one thing I really like about my changes.

Kitsuneymg
2015-04-20, 08:24 PM
It happens. Now does this interact with the secondary function of healing spells, undead damage?

tl;dr
My initial intent was for cure spells to damage undead as they are written. Inflict spells would damage PCs as written, but heal undead at the same rate as these cure spells heal living creatures.

When I first wrote this, I added a line to the block of text that gives extra d8s in place of +1s to make it only apply when healing. I didn't want to make healers into undead blasters. I'm less sure about the balance impact of buffing an offensive tool than a defensive one.

I personally find little issue with letting them do "full damage" against undead. Between the touch range, the will save, and the fact that blasting isn't too great to begin with, I don't see why a DM couldn't allow Cure spells to do massive damage to undead. The issue comes in when you want to flip this over and use it for Inflict spells too.

A touch that does more than 1d8/level of negative energy is going to hurt the PCs far more than this kind of healing helps. Most bad guys and monsters don't worry about the next encounter. They exist to fight the PCs once and nova for all they are worth. This means that applying this new scaling to inflict spells is a little over balanced for bad guys to have.

I think that the extra d8s should only be granted when you're healing something. Be it healing a living creature with positive energy or healing undead with negative.

Kitsuneymg
2015-04-20, 09:06 PM
The problem with your +Xd8/level scaling method is that it means most of the time you are going to have spells of two different spell levels doing practically the same thing. This is the problem I ran into with most methods of caster level scaling. I mean between levels 3 and 6 the difference between CLW and CMW is 1d8 worth of healing. That's so minimal it's laughable. I honestly think it's better to divorce scaling from caster level.

I do like your list of condition removal based on cure spells. I feel like it might nerf debuffing too much, but I'd like to play with it and see before saying for sure.

Yeah. the similarity in effect between two cure spells is he main reason I added the condition removal stuff. Because CMW costs 6x what CLW does when put into a magic item, CLW always wins GP/HP wars. But if CMW lets the barbarian rage again, it's worth having around.

It was suggested to me by a friend IRL that I could just make 1 cure spell and have it scale at 1d8+1/level all the way to 20d8+20 and that would be a decent replacement for the entire cure line.

I see your point about debuffing being nerfed. I still think a healer taking an action and blowing a slot to remove a small list of conditions is fine. I'll add something to Combat Medic to remove quickened debuff removal from the things it does.



Regarding healing surges, I am actually glad to see someone else out there playing 3.5/PF actually likes the concept and wants to continue using them. I am not so sure I like your keeping the tradition of healing surges varying by class. I can see giving some classes a free class feature at certain levels to boost it... but you seem to have already run into the problems of having class based healing surges in a non-4e world where you can multiclass freely. Because a Wizard can totally have a single level in Fighter and pick up 4 extra healing surges, which is a pretty big deal. Given how much PF in general tries to discourage dipping, this seems like a really bad thing.


I think you missed this: "Multiclassed characters use their most numerous levels to determine their number of surges." So a wizard won't get fighter like surges unless he has equal number of wizard and fighter levels. I think a Wiz5/fighter5/Eldritch Knight 10 deserves those extra surges.



Combat Healer is a really powerful feat. Giving free quickened cures is cool, but also giving all cure spells as spells known for free is over the top. It's a one feat stop to turn literally any caster into an amazing healer tossing out a quickened heal every round. That benefit really needs to be split off into a second feat. It also might be cool to have a line of feats that provide different metamagics to your cure, but you choose one to use each round. So this round you quicken a spell and attack the bad guy. Next round you use your standard action to Maximize a cure. The following round you get Reach spell to cure an ally on the other side of the battlefield. And so on. Give a little more variety to the dedicated healer types.


Hrm. More like a tactical feat then. On your other point, I agree. When I have some time, I will break out the "become a healer" aspect into it's own feat and leave combat medic as it's own brand of extra healing. It won't kill the wizard to spend 2 feats to also be the party healer.



By the way since you are working with Pathfinder specifically, have you thought at all about Lay on Hands, Channel Energy, and other similar effects? I have heard they are generally effective healing options (especially the Paladin with swift action lay on hands).


They are very good options for healing. The Paladin's lay on hand was part of the inspiration for making this houserule. The main issue is forcing people to pick a class they don't really want because they (rightly or wrongly) believe they *must* have a healer.

I do like channel energy for postcombat healing. But clerics are the only ones who can really use it well. (Paladins and Warmages have that nasty 2 for 1 trade.)



The two more major changes (and things relevant to you) that you may want to consider are:
1) Cure Spells are 1d8+5 per spell level. No caster level scaling. CLW is always 1d8+5, CCW is always 4d8+20. The much higher chunk of set healing at the level the spell comes online helps differentiate the spells better and keep them more relevant.


The main issue I have with this is that healing 1d8+5 damage is still a waste of an action much of the time. It's great the level you get it, but it quickly becomes very bad. Maybe if I made combat medic auto quicken w/o any real cost (other than taking the feat). FWIW, 2d8 and 1d8+5 are basically the same thing. So we agree on level 1 power at any rate. :P



2) I also allowed for spending a healing surge when hit with a cure wounds spell, but instead of gaining 25% of max HP, I made it double the effect of the cure spell. This makes which cure spell you cast more important. At level 7, 4d8+20 hp may already be enough cover more than half your hit points. Using a surge with that will let a typical character bounce from death's door to full health. At later levels, it loses effectiveness (at least your surge value will eventually outpace what you gain from the cure spell), but by then Heal has come online, and even ignoring that, at any level getting a shot of ~80hp (CCW) or ~120hp (Mass CCW) is a noticable gain and will save lives.


Very good point. I like this method of making which spell you cast matter. I think I'll steal it.


Note: I actually let these changes stand for consumables. a Wand of CLW is still going to be weaker on average than a wand of lesser vigor...

I'd like to point out that lesser vigor isn't a pathfinder spell :3. I don't want to prevent a group from using wands and UMD to make surrogate healers, I just want the PC who chose to play a healer to feel like he's doing a lot better than a rogue with a wand.

Regardless, I'll have to sleep on this (kids' bedtime) and run some more numbers to see what the heal vs DPR is at the mid levels (pre-heal). I really want a character who heals someone with their action to be able to nullify a full attack from a level appropriate monster. 4d8+20 might just do that. Especially with some ways of getting maxed out healing as healing surges.

Food for thought:

A character who takes magical lineage CCW and maximize spell can pump out, at 20th level, a 192 point healing spell as a sixth level spell. This beats Heal by 42 points, but does not cure ability damage and several other major conditions. That same character who lineages Heal and uses intensify spell can get a full 200 out of it. Without Lineage, a Maximized CSW is 144 points healed: a touch under heal's maximum. So these spells are very linear in power. The main difference is the conditions they cure and their cap.



Thanks for your comments! I spent a lot of time on this and really love that some have read it in depth.

Thealtruistorc
2015-04-20, 09:33 PM
I know a cleric that will be very pleased with this. I'm very glad you made this, as it makes adventuring not only easier but a great deal more fun.

Though why does combat medic require 4 ranks? 3 or 5 (so you can grab the feat as soon as you qualify) would make more sense.

Kitsuneymg
2015-04-20, 11:19 PM
I know a cleric that will be very pleased with this. I'm very glad you made this, as it makes adventuring not only easier but a great deal more fun.

Though why does combat medic require 4 ranks? 3 or 5 (so you can grab the feat as soon as you qualify) would make more sense.

Man. I knew this would get me. I'm playing in a 3.5 game right now and just went "4 ranks = 1st level! dohohoho". I'll change it when i do my update tomorrow.


The problem with your +Xd8/level scaling method is that it means most of the time you are going to have spells of two different spell levels doing practically the same thing. This is the problem I ran into with most methods of caster level scaling. I mean between levels 3 and 6 the difference between CLW and CMW is 1d8 worth of healing. That's so minimal it's laughable. I honestly think it's better to divorce scaling from caster level.

I got to run some mental gymnastics while I was trying to bathe my kids.

1d8 + 05 ~ 2d8
2d8 + 10 ~ 4d8
3d8 + 15 ~ 6d8
4d8 + 20 ~ 8d8

Just interesting to see where you scaled your spells. They basically are 2d8/spell level. So they scale linearly wrt to each other. I wonder if this is enough to make healing 'worth it'. It's slightly better than blasting (1d6/level) at the level, but during the "breaks" blasting catches up and you're barely breaking even. We know blasting sucks, so I wonder if this is enough.

I took a look at a few CR 5 critters and it looks like 3d8+15 is more than enough to make up for a full attack from any of them, so I guess it's level appropriate.

Would a feat/item that improves your cure spells be in order? Something like the warlock's (from 3.5) chasuble of fell power? (+2d8 for 8k, +4d8 for 18k?).

Anyway, I'll try to track down average DPR by CR table tomorrow and see what the averages are. I probably should have said that my goal is that a healer should be able to negate a critical or full attack from a level appropriate melee monster by using his highest spell slot around 66% of the time. This is him blowing his standard action after all and NOT casting divine power or some other self buff to wade in and attack.

You've given me a ton to think about. Thanks again.

Seerow
2015-04-21, 12:21 AM
Just interesting to see where you scaled your spells. They basically are 2d8/spell level. So they scale linearly wrt to each other. I wonder if this is enough to make healing 'worth it'. It's slightly better than blasting (1d6/level) at the level, but during the "breaks" blasting catches up and you're barely breaking even. We know blasting sucks, so I wonder if this is enough.


My general thought was that it was okay for a heal spell by itself to fall behind after a level or 2. Meanwhile spending a healing surge keeps the HP healed relevant for quite some time thereafter. Keep in mind my goals in modifying healing were slightly different from yours. I wanted to make out of combat healing not reliant on wands, and make in-combat healing useful for clutch emergency situations. You want healing to be something a person chooses to do in combat at all times. I posted my stuff to share, and to maybe inspire you, but you are aiming for something different which will require different balance points.

FWIW I actually originally went with more D8's per spell level and had a healing surge maximize it, until someone pointed out to me how much the increased randomness could backfire. Healing tends to work best with minimal randomness, because at any given time you know how much healing you need, getting more is wasted and getting less can get you killed. Just another little factor that pushed me towards what I settled on.



Hrm. More like a tactical feat then. On your other point, I agree. When I have some time, I will break out the "become a healer" aspect into it's own feat and leave combat medic as it's own brand of extra healing. It won't kill the wizard to spend 2 feats to also be the party healer.


Just wanted to comment on this, I was actually suggesting making a series of feats. So someone who just wants to dabble grabs swift healer and can swift action heal every round. But a dedicated healer who wants to be able to do his thing every round might have a half dozen similar feats tuned for every situation.


Would a feat/item that improves your cure spells be in order? Something like the warlock's (from 3.5) chasuble of fell power? (+2d8 for 8k, +4d8 for 18k?).


Yeah something like that seems like it'd be fine.

HughJ
2015-04-21, 08:28 AM
Long time lurker, first time poster.

Make it one feat with three options. 1. Cast from a slot it's a swift action. 2. You can make it a standard and gain either a rider effect (ala restoration, remove disease etc... depending on the level used) or a blast of holy energy that deals damage to an enemy while healing an ally 3. There is only one cure spell. It is zero level. You may heighten it for free.

LibraryOgre
2015-04-21, 09:19 AM
On the topic of healing surges (a concept I enjoyed from 4e), why not divorce them from class entirely? Making them contingent on class worked in 4e because you couldn't change or really combine classes. In 3.x, it seems less feasible.

If you want to make it somewhat class based, how about you have healing surges equal to 1 + your Fortitude Save modifier, or 1 + 1 your class-based fortitude save modifier (which would remove item bonuses, con bonuses, feats, etc.). Classes with a strong Fort would have more healing surges to use, and it would work well with the multiclassing system.

You might also go with healing surges as a ratio of your Constitution... perhaps 1/3, rounded down? Con remains a valuable stat, but it keeps healing surges from getting too numerous.

Kitsuneymg
2015-04-21, 11:19 PM
...
I've made some changes. Adopting your scaling with the minor change of add casting stat mod too. Still keeping the class based surges. It's a nice way to give mostly warrior-type groups the healing they'd need.

Kitsuneymg
2015-04-26, 07:29 PM
In case anyone stumbles upon this and wants to consider using it:

We ran our first session with these rules in effect and my players loved it.

Aside from the inquisitor feeling like his healing was *worth* something, the surges added a lot of staying power to the party. They would have had to head back to town twice, just for healing, but for them. It also made the cleric and fighter pair of goblins frightening. The fighter 2 was able to soak almost 50 points of damage from the party over 5 rounds of combat thanks to surges* and cure spells from the cleric. Since he was able to spend them as free actions when the cleric healed him, it really made the party think about their tactics. They eventually were forced to eat the AoO and circle around him to take out the healer.

For reference: my party consists of an Order of the Paw halfling cavalier, a magus, an inquisitor, and a fighter, all second level. Aside from making the bad guys more interesting, the surges let them PCs come back from the brink twice. Once, a character hit 0 and surged to get back into positives. I let the one who was downed throw a surge at the CLW he received from the inquisitor. The 26 HP pulled him back up to full. The healer really likes having a large impact on combat without having to resort to "optimized" melee tactics. He's taking the "know all cure spells" feat at third because he feels that in combat healing is now worth his actions.

The long and short of it was: it made combat more fun for the PCs. As a DM, I can throw bad guys who can down PCs at them without worrying that they will have to head back to town after the fight simply because they are too low level to have a stash of CLW wands. They should be able to afford a wand now, so I'll post after our next session (sadly, these are monthly) and report on how that effects durability. Combat didn't get slowed too much by the extra healing. My party isn't optimized very highly, so combat take 7-ish rounds, especially against things with shields.

The PCs did have to go back to town at teh end of the session as the halfling had no luck points left and both casters were running on fumes. So it was not health that sent them back, but rather, everything else. They did continue on with one more encounter after running out of spells, because they felt confident about being at full health.

To reiterate, even though it made the BBEGS a PITA to fight, my PCs love these rules. Special thanks to Seerow for the fixed progression on the Cure line. The reliability of the cures has made the inquisitor far less reticent about using them.


* I gave monsters 1/2 their HD size in surges with no bonuses. I felt this was a fair balance considering they were PC classes, but they only have one fight their resources have to last for. I did not give the mooks any surges.

Demonic Kitten
2015-04-27, 03:51 AM
I agree with your general concept of healing needing a buff. I will also probably steal your bit about being able to use healing surges with the Heal skill for my games, it's neat.

A couple of things I've found seriously help parties in my games:

1.) I rewrote the cure and inflict spell lines from the bottom up. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?230884-Cure-and-Inflict-Revamped-%283-5-spells-PEACH%29) Aside from boosting their power greatly, I divorced the spells from any variable healing power at all. Each cure is always a flat number healed now. I allow players to Empower them even if they aren't variables, but this has only honestly come up a couple of times. I've found that making it flat numbers makes players more confident in getting cured, in general boosting morale around the table, whereas variable healing makes players leery of using those important spell slots to cure after a string of bad rolls some night. I also did what you did, and combined the cure spells with the restoration spells.

2.) As a houserule, I have my players add their entire Con score to HP at first level. This bonus is ONLY added at first level, and it creates low level characters that can take more than one hit, and tends to balance out as characters level. Yes, they'll be a little beefier early on, but by 10th or 15th level, a 15 point bonus to HP on the Fighter at level one really doesn't do much, meaning late game balance isn't heavily impacted. This lets players feel more confident in taking on encounters, meaning people play a little more riskily, which tends to lead to more action and excitement at the table, as opposed to the 6HP Wizard wondering what to do now that all 4 of his spell slots are empty.

3.) Potions and scrolls cost SO MUCH. I divide their costs by 5 at my table. This has a few side effects that can change game balance a bit in levels you may not like, so YMMV with this one. In general though, this makes the Cleric far more likely to take Brew Potions as a feat, because a potion of CLW is now a flat 10GP to brew at CL1. It doesn't cure much, but it's much better than 50GP for 1d8+1. This lets players have things like potions of Bull's Strength cheaper as well, so it can effect balance some. Honestly, though, I'm a huge fan of item creation, so if a player says "I really want to work an item creation in here somewhere", I'll probably figure a way for him to get it done. If you don't like the idea of ALL potions being cheaper, I'd suggest that healing potions and scrolls get a nice price discount, as those are nice low level feats that are quite useful for other things as well.

4.) Another thing I allow potion-wise is batch brewing. Don't force players to make each healing potion individually, one per day. Let them make a batch of ten! This only really works if they make all the potions identical though. Alternatively, figure out how long each potion would take to make by dividing 1000GP by the GP cost of the potion, and let them make them faster. So if 1000GP is 8 hours of work, and your potion is worth 50GP, that's roughly 24 minutes of work. This encourages players to take a day to prepare for things as well, which I find gives additional chances for roleplaying.

All in all, I like what I'm seeing you do here! I hope anything I had to add helps, and I look forward to seeing this progress!