How far does shapesand go in your games?

[shaikujin]

I mean the alchemical shapesand item.

Let's say shaping it into artifacts and specific magic items are not allowed.

Is it otherwise similar to Chaos flask except only mundane items can be shaped and that it takes as much shapesand in pounds as the final item weighs?

Can it be used to form a mirror?
A periscope?
A poncho?
A net?

Can 15 lbs of it be used to form leather armor?

Can 50 lbs of it be used to form iron full plate?

Would the hp and hardness be as if the full plate was made of iron?

Can it be used to form a great sword?

Can it be masterwork if the appropriate craft DC is made (sandshaper prc can make masterwork items from normal sand with the appropriate DC, but does this apply to the shapesand item in your games?)

If so, can this masterwork item serve as the base item to add magic enhancement to (with the risk that enemies can unshape your weapon)

Can if be used to form spell components?

Can it be used to form a 10,000 gp diamond to be used for resurrection?

Thanks!

[Curmudgeon]

I'll let shapesand be used to form most mundane items, but it's always obvious that the product is made of sand.
The new object is made of sand, but serves as a normal item of the same sort. So, because it's sand, it can't be used to make leather armor, a diamond, or anything else where the material is an intrinsic part of the item. No iron full plate — but then there's never been such a thing as iron full plate. Full plate armor is normally made of steel, but the rules only require it to be metal. Sand is made of mostly silicon dioxide with some aluminum dioxide, and both silicon and aluminum are metals. Just as you can make a hammer of shapesand, you can make full plate armor of shapesand.

The part about the new object being made of sand is that anybody can recognize it as such and try to exert their own willpower over the shapesand.
Another character can wrest control of a shapesand item away from you by succeeding on an opposed Wisdom check, though the winner’s Wisdom score must be high enough to shape an item the size of the one contested.

[shaikujin]

Very much appreciated Curmudgeon, as always!

So I guess a mirror made of sand (rather than melted sand, aka glass) is not really going to work?

What about trying to shape it into a masterwork item (with the corresponding DC check) in your games?

Can the shapesand itself be crafted as masterwork shapesand?

And subsequently enchanted? Maybe made intelligent?

[Curmudgeon]

Unless you've got a source of masterwork rather than normal shapesand, I don't see that as viable.
The new object is made of sand, but serves as a normal item of the same sort.

[shaikujin]

Might be possible I think.

Shapesand is an alchemical item right?

Much like sunrod and tanglefoot bags are alchemical items.

Hence the relevant craft skill is Alchemy.

What I can't find is the DC and masterwork costs.

For the DC, I am not sure, but it seems like it'll qualify as a complex item (which has a DC of 25).

Making it masterwork would take another DC 20 check. Cost-wise, add 300 gp for every jug of shapesand maybe?

I'm picturing sifting and grinding the raw shapesand until we get very fine shapesand.



What about the fabricate spell? Fabricate masterwork shapesand from normal shapesand? That way we don't have to worry about masterwork costs.

[Curmudgeon]

Making it masterwork would take another DC 20 check. Cost-wise, add 300 gp for every jug of shapesand maybe?
I don't know of any rules which would support this. Masterwork costs are for the finished item, not by volume of materials. Either you have the masterwork component or you do not, and shapesand specifies that it makes only normal (not masterwork) items.

[shaikujin]

Yeah, the rules don't really cover this. Crafting rules only let me deduce that Alchemy skill is required, and that items can be made masterwork with a DC 20 check.

Can a jug of shapesand be considered an item?

And even though they mention weapons, armor, tools and items, there's also a lack of a MW cost beyond the 300 gp for weapons and the 150 for armor.

For example, is masterwork tool simply a 45 gp increase, or is it base price x10?



Ok, what about the Sand Shaper's ability? They can make masterwork items.

Can a Sand Shaper's Shape Sand ability shape Shapesand?

[Curmudgeon]

Can a jug of shapesand be considered an item?
The jug itself, yes. The contents aren't an item any more than the contents of a sack of pepper are an item. An item is individually targetable, so a single grain of shapesand or corn of pepper would be an item. There's nothing specific about the volume of a thimbleful, a cup, a jug, a sack, a barrel, or any other receptacle which matters except in terms of bookkeeping (price, weight, & c.).

[icefractal]

And if the sand did count as masterwork, would it produce masterwork items, or would it just grant +2 on the check to shape it, as per a masterwork tool? Seems like uncertain ground.


And IMC:
Yes - poncho (not the most comfortable), net (heavier than normal, but yes), full plate (hardness is as stone), great sword, masterwork items (hadn't really focused on the 'normal' part)
No - mirror, periscope, leather armor, most spell components (can form ones that don't depend on material, like the tiny target used for true strike), diamond.

Never had someone try to enchant it before, but sure, why not? I'd restrict enchantments to only working when it was in a compatible shape though. No enchanting it as a +5 arrow and then turning it into +5 full plate.

[jiriku]

I could see a shapesand mirror. Steel isn't the world's only reflective substance; silica has a crystalline structure and crystals form flat faces that can reflect light (both sand and quartz are made of silica). The sand assumes "any form" and serves as a "normal item". There's no reason that shaping the sand can't be fluffed to include room-temperature melting and resolidifying, or individual grains reshaping themselves and grains aligning so that their faces form a smooth, reflective plane. I mean, we're talking about producing a 10-gp non-masterwork item here, whose principal attribute is "has one flat surface." If a player needs a mirror let him have a mirror.

However, I could see ruling that shapesand is unable to duplicate superior items (those with a Craft DC of 20+) because of its non-masterwork status. Items with an extremely fine degree of workmanship or many small, finely built and intricately connected parts might require more mental agility to shape and assemble than the sand's magic can reasonably provide (compare to spells like stone shape, which also cannot produce fine detail).

[Eloel]

Heating sand till it melts literally creates glass. I don't see how you could NOT get a mirror out of sand.

[Curmudgeon]

Heating sand till it melts literally creates glass.
Glass is easy, if you don't care about uniform thickness.

I don't see how you could NOT get a mirror out of sand.
Mirrors require flat glass with a non-diffusing reflective coating. Until somebody came up with the idea of dumping molten glass on top of a bath of liquid tin, flat glass was ridiculously hard to make: it involved a highly-skilled artisan blowing and stretching a cylinder, slicing it lengthwise, and unrolling it on a hot metal surface. Even with expert skill, the resulting glass was small and only approximately flat. If you don't have flat glass, you're not going to get a good mirror.

[jiriku]

Historically, mirrors made from highly polished stone or metal surfaces predate coated-glass mirrors by 2,000 - 6,000 years. The process required to create them is considerably simpler.

[Hazrond]

One thing I alwa thought was clever was to use a jug of shapesand as a skeleton key, having it mold to fit the lock

[shaikujin]

Thanks guys, your responses have been very helpful!

If anyone has had shapesand being used in your games before, I'd be greatful if you can share your experience :)

[Ashtagon]

In my games, shapesand has the following restrictions:

1) It can't duplicate any finely detailed work finer than a single grain of sand (about 1 mm for this purpose). You can use it to make a club with no problem. Any slashing or piercing weapons made of shapesand deal damage as a weapon one size class smaller, to account for the fact that they are extremely blunt versions.

2) It always remains, visibly and in texture, sand. It won't serve to duplicate anything where the material itself is a fundamental quality of the object. You can't make a mirror out of shapesand. You could probably make clothes out of shapesand, but they'd look and feel like sand. EDIT: specifically, "solid" objects will typically have the feel of cement, while "cloth" will feel like sandpaper.

3) It can't duplicate anything you cannot see or describe with a high degree of accuracy where specific details matter. You can make "a key", but unless you can see an original of a particular key, you can't make a working copy of a key for a particular lock. Due to the lack of fine detail allowed, modern ("Yale" or pin tumbler) keys would not be duplicable.

[Vizzerdrix]

I mean the alchemical shapesand item.

AKA the 100gp class feature. Good stuff. Do note that this item is very poorly written. Sit down with your DM and discuss your intent and acceptable use limits with him or her beforehand. Most are willing to offer a bit of give and take on the subject.



Is it otherwise similar to Chaos flask except only mundane items can be shaped and that it takes as much shapesand in pounds as the final item weighs?

Oddly enough, it says no such thing about weight, just volume. Unless their is an edit someplace I don't know about.



Can it be used to form a mirror?
A periscope?
A poncho?
A net?
Can 15 lbs of it be used to form leather armor?
Can 50 lbs of it be used to form iron full plate?
Would the hp and hardness be as if the full plate was made of iron?
Can it be used to form a great sword?


Yes to all of it, and it would function in all ways as that item. Row 3-4 of the shapesand Item description on page 102 says as much. The Shapesand description on page 25 (lines 4-5) support this as well.



Can it be masterwork if the appropriate craft DC is made (sandshaper prc can make masterwork items from normal sand with the appropriate DC, but does this apply to the shapesand item in your games?)
If so, can this masterwork item serve as the base item to add magic enhancement to (with the risk that enemies can unshape your weapon)

Sandshaper isn't that great for shaping sand unless you go into RAW shenanigans, and is a separate entity from shapesand. Don't go looking for shapesand rules there. Oddly enough, nothing is barring you from making an object with the qualities of a masterwork, feycrafted, mithril, deep crystal, etc. item. What you make has all the qualities of the object it mimics. However as for enchanting, If a clever enemy turns your shapesand katana into a bowl of petunias, well it isn't a weapon anymore now is it? And weapon enchantments can only be on weapons.



Can if be used to form spell components?
Can it be used to form a 10,000 gp diamond to be used for resurrection?

RAW yes, but expect your DM (any sane DM tbh) to disallow this, or to start having invisible enemies start attacking you with your own sand.


As for stories, I got shapesand banned from two groups just for making a 12 foot ladder out of it, used it to make a harpoon so I could "safely" get it to another player, and killed a DMPC that developed a taste for PC flesh ( It was a werecloaker the DM was using to weed out undesireable players and characters). I've taken nothing but shapesand into the WLD and come out smelling like roases. It all depends on how clever you can be.

[atemu1234]

Unless you've got a source of masterwork rather than normal shapesand, I don't see that as viable.

So, theoretically, I could make shapesand into water? Drink it, it fulfills your thirst all the same?

[shaikujin]

Thanks for the ideas and in game examples Ashtagon & Vizzerdrix!

Yeah, there isn't a lot to go on from the books unfortunately, hence the series of questions :D



Vizzerdrix, if only volume is used to determine what can be shaped, how do you determine how much shapesand is required for a suit of full plate?

In this case, does a single item require the entire full jug of shapesand to be used?

[Segev]

1) It can't duplicate any finely detailed work finer than a single grain of sword (about 1 mm for this purpose). You can use it to make a club with no problem. Any slashing or piercing weapons made of shapesand deal damage as a weapon one size class smaller, to account for the fact that they are extremely blunt versions.

Many swords actually have edges that are as dull as 1mm. A greatsword, in particular, shouldn't suffer too much in the damage department from a "mere" 1mm edge. Its cutting power is mostly from the weight of steel behind the wedge, not the sharpness of the edge.

[Mr Adventurer]

"Can the Sandshaper's Shape Sand ability shape Shapesand sand?" is the best question ever.

[Ashtagon]

Many swords actually have edges that are as dull as 1mm. A greatsword, in particular, shouldn't suffer too much in the damage department from a "mere" 1mm edge. Its cutting power is mostly from the weight of steel behind the wedge, not the sharpness of the edge.

A common misconception dating back to Victorian times and their penchant for collecting "display" weapons. This myth is right up there with the idea that mediaeval plate armour was clumsy to walk around in, and that greatswords were in excess of 20 lb in weight. It does seem, however, that once firearms and cartridges become the primary weapon of choice, the practice of sharpening issued swords fell out of use. As this predates the US civil war, that may also account for much of the myth.

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?96486-Medieval-Swords-sharp-or-blunt
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?16893-Historically-how-sharp-were-swords

[Segev]

While I will certainly concede my ignorance in this field, my point was more to the fact that 1mm thick is still quite sharp enough if you're swinging a sword around. It's about twice the thickness of a piece of paper, and anybody who's had a papercut from construction paper or card stock can attest that that's plenty sharp enoguh for a slashing weapon to inflict more than blunt-force trauma.

[Ashtagon]

While I will certainly concede my ignorance in this field, my point was more to the fact that 1mm thick is still quite sharp enough if you're swinging a sword around. It's about twice the thickness of a piece of paper, and anybody who's had a papercut from construction paper or card stock can attest that that's plenty sharp enoguh for a slashing weapon to inflict more than blunt-force trauma.

A ream of paper (500 sheets in modern usage) is about 54 mm. That works out to an average thickness of 0.1 mm (actually 0.10795).

If you're using paper that is two sheets per millimetre of thickness, that's some seriously heavy paper you got there.

Back on topic, while it is certainly enough to cause cutting wounds when swung, it's indisputably inferior to what would have been done had it actually been a properly sharp blade. That's why I only knock it down by a single die size step, instead of halving the damage or outright saying it can't be done.

[Ashtagon]

Following on from my earlier response...


Can it be used to form a mirror?
A periscope?
A poncho?
A net?

No mirrors or periscopes, as they require qualities of the material to function.

You could make a poncho. It'd be about as waterproof as ordinary sandpaper though (ie not very). It won't actually "rip" though.

You could easily make a net with shapesand.


Can 15 lbs of it be used to form leather armor?

Sure. Note that it'd feel like sandpaper. I'd rule that any sandshaped armour or clothing worn would result in some severe chaffing; after ten minutes in such a piece, the character will suffer a -2 penalty on any task requiring full-body movement until such a time as he takes it off and then takes a ten minute rest to sort out all the minor abrasions and loose sand in his underwear.


Can 50 lbs of it be used to form iron full plate?

I'd allow it to form an armour that is functionally standard full plate armour (with the "sand in your pants" issue noted above). No special material modifiers for any superior kind of materials though. You can't sandshape a set of mithral full plate or even cold iron full plate. (aside: "cold iron" has to be one of the most annoying special material names ever; any iron cold enough to wear or handle is by definition cold).


Would the hp and hardness be as if the full plate was made of iron?

It'd be as if it were made of stone (which it is). In fact, any shapesand item would have that hp/hardness. Particularly "thin" items (such as a sandshape net or poncho) would have a break DC equivalent to the item they are duplicating though.


Can it be used to form a great sword?

Yes but it'd be a very blunt version, reducing the damage die by one step.


Can it be masterwork if the appropriate craft DC is made (sandshaper prc can make masterwork items from normal sand with the appropriate DC, but does this apply to the shapesand item in your games?)

If so, can this masterwork item serve as the base item to add magic enhancement to (with the risk that enemies can unshape your weapon)

I'd rule that masterwork shapesand is easier to shape, but the items it is shaped as are still ordinary (non-masterwork) versions.


Can if be used to form spell components?

I'd generally say no. The shapesand remains shapesand, regardless of what it is shaped as. I suppose if a spell has sand as a material component, it's cool though.


Can it be used to form a 10,000 gp diamond to be used for resurrection?

Absolutely not.

[Rijan_Sai]

For our game, the DM is fairly easygoing when it comes to shapesand:

}Just about anything under the Adventuring Gear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#adventuringGear)*, Clothing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#clothing)** and Transport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#transport)*** tables;

}Most things from Tools and Skill Kits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolsAndSkillKits)****

}Barding and saddles from Mounts and Related Gear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#mountsAndRelatedGear);

}Anything from Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm) and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm) - Masterwork "components" may be made with ~1/3 additional volume of shapesand (to reflect the 1/3 additional cost) and the appropriate DC20 Craft check.

And any additions to those from available splat-books.

*No ink or oil, see below
**Clothing still looks like sand, though it functions as normal (Courtier’s and Noble's outfits may be problematic though, since those tend to rely more on the visuals...)
***With the appropriate amount of shapesand, of course!
****Exceptions include Alchemist's Lab, Disguise Kit, Healer's Kit, and Holy (and Unholy) Symbols

Absolutely no:
Food;
Liquids of any kind;
Alchemical substances/item;
Spell Components (Material or Focus, including Divine Focus)


Recently, our "prepared for anything" BSF (had a crowbar, hammers, pitons, etc. - "the whole kit-'n'-kaboodle") got a jar of shapesand. Keeps (some of) the other things on hand "just in case," but now has "the whole kit-in-a-bottle!"

Edit: Forgot a note about enhancing SS weapons and armor: Not with regular enhancements (i.e. Flaming; Acid Resistance; etc.) However, our group would allow Magic Weapon spells and the like, as long as the sand was shaped appropriately, of course.

Also:

Following on from my earlier response...


Can it be used to form a mirror?
A periscope?
A poncho?
A net?

No mirrors or periscopes, as they require qualities of the material to function.

You could make a poncho. It'd be about as waterproof as ordinary sandpaper though (ie not very). It won't actually "rip" though.

You could easily make a net with shapesand.

Just a quick note addressing this one point:


A shapesand hammer functions just like an ordinary
hammer, and a shapesand waterskin is just as watertight
as an ordinary skin.
So a poncho would work just fine.

[Sith_Happens]

So, theoretically, I could make shapesand into water? Drink it, it fulfills your thirst all the same?

I don't see why not, but I also don't see why you would spend nearly that much money on water.:smalltongue:

[shaikujin]

"Can the Sandshaper's Shape Sand ability shape Shapesand sand?" is the best question ever.

Thank you :)

I was rather sad no one mentioned it heh.

Also thank you for the continued examples guys!



After reading Sandstorm more carefully, it to me that Sandshapers (and the Sand domain power) can indeed make masterwork items, and can do so with shapesand.

They seem to get the benefits (no time limit), but there's no mention of drawbacks (ie other folks can used an opposed will check to reshape it). I gotta go re-read it again and chew on it a bit.