Value of the Saint Template

[Jowgen]

Saint from BoED is one hell of a great template, even if all the fluff-requirements are enforced. You get a lot of stuff out of it, and I'm curious on how much you would need to invest to get all that same stuff otherwise.

This is basically the same as figuring out how much Vow of Poverty costs to duplicate with equipment (which has been done, lost the link though), although gold needn't be the only resource used to duplicate it.

Any ideas or estimates, anyone? :smallsmile:

[Troacctid]

Saint from BoED is one hell of a great template, even if all the fluff-requirements are enforced.

I wouldn't call the requirements "Fluff". You need three prerequisite feats. That's pretty crunchy.

[Crake]

I wouldn't call the requirements "Fluff". You need three prerequisite feats. That's pretty crunchy.

I think he meant the fluff requirements of being exalted "goody two-shoes" good

[Jowgen]

I think he meant the fluff requirements of being exalted "goody two-shoes" good

Indeed. :smallwink:

[goto124]

How does it compare to being an LG paladin? 0-0

And really, how 'bad' fluff requirements are can be rather dependant on the DM, setting, and group dynamics.

[Douglas]

How does it compare to being an LG paladin? 0-0
Paladin: falls on committing an Evil act
Saint: falls on not proactively doing the Goodest act available

Or something like that. The latter requirement is rather a lot stricter.

[goto124]

... is that template even remotely playable?

[Twice]

It's probably similar to playing vow of non-violence as a self-destructive martyr. By any sacrifice, cost, or absolution you will see goodness spread throughout the world.

I think you could probably get away with playing clerical justice batman or a divine face. In other words, something powerful enough to survive doing every good action possible, or something that takes to solving the world problems with the power of their voice by any means.

At least in my opinion.

[ZamielVanWeber]

... is that template even remotely playable?

Yes. I have used it a few times, but ask your DM ahead of time what they expect from exalted good/sainthood.

A few tricks I learned:
Be heavily focused on redemption; actively trying to redeem evildoers lets you associate with them a little more, giving you some latitude.
Love is an awesome thing to champion.
Self-sacrifice is something your character should continue to perform. In a nautical campaign I had a paladin who would take the punishment of pirates if he felt that it was cruel or unjust. He never stopped doing that (although fast healing made it a lot easier).

Funny: A Saint Apostle of Peace (especially with the submissive feats from BoEF) is nightmarishly difficult to kill, even without the "defensive items" clause from Apostle of Peace.

[Clistenes]

I think the playbility depends on the type of adventure. If the party is exploring a dungeon stuffed with undead and fiends, looking for the key to stop Demogorgon/Orcus/Lolth/Mephistofeles plans it would be difficult for your character to do something really evil, unless the character hurts its teammates or betrays the mission.

There are hundreds of adventures like that, and many others with many opportunites to easily do good works and little chance to mess unless you actively try.

On the other hand, if your DM is one of those who thinks it's his duty to make every paladin fall...

Also, if the character is a paladiney type and gets the template as reward for doing some great deeds in service of Good/its patron deity, it should be treated with a bit more of leniency that if he just wished for the template. If your character has saved the Wellspring of Unborn Souls, stopped the Savage Tide or slayed Shothragot, the Herald of Tharizdun, then the gods owe him/her big time.

[Cruiser1]

Saint: falls on not proactively doing the Goodest act available
No, there's actually nothing in the Saint template description that says you can ever "fall" or lose the benefits from it. That means once you have it, you have it for good, even if you become evil and commit evil acts! The hard part about about the Saint template is qualifying for it in the first place: You have to be exalted good, and have never lost the benefit of exalted feats or class features to due committing an evil act (even if you atoned), and leading up to acquiring the template "must at all times behave in a way the DM considers to be exemplary of the exalted path". You can still lose the benefit of your exalted feats, just as anybody will who "willingly and willfully commits an evil act". However, the Saint template is not a PrC, so losing the prerequisites after you acquire the template shouldn't make you lose the benefits of the template (and even for PrC's that rule is often considered debatable).

[jiriku]

Any ideas or estimates, anyone? :smallsmile:

I would give a ballpark estimate of about 250,000 gp. However, it's really difficult to say because the template is worth more to some kinds of characters than to others. The value of holy power is highly dependent on how many special attacks that force saving throws the saint has. Other abilities are generally expensive to purchase but would be near worthless to some characters or in some parties. For example, gaining darkvision is of no interest to a dwarf, while the protective aura power is only marginally useful to a spellcaster who can use planar ally or planar binding to obtain a minion that provides the same benefit. Even the fast healing is of questionable usefulness if the party includes someone who is already providing the character with all-day fast healing.

[Red Fel]

Getting back on the topic, let's look at what the Saint template gives you, and what you can buy that provides the same benefit.

First, the template gives you:
Wis to AC. +2 to save DCs of special attacks. Bonus damage to Evil creatures, and damage dealt to Evil creatures who strike in melee. At-will SLAs. DR. Fast healing. Immunities to energy and petrification. Low-light vision and Darkvision 60. At-will Magic Circle Against Evil plus Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. Fire resistance and bonus to poison saves. Always-on Tongues. Ability score modifiers.
Phew! Okay. Now let's pick them apart one at a time. What items can give us each of the above?
Wis to AC: Monk's Belt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks), 13,000 gp. Increased save DCs: No idea. Bonus damage to Evil: Holy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holy) weapon enhancement, +2 bonus. Damage dealt to those who hit you in melee: Continuous use item of Fire Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireShield.htm), 32,000xCL gp. SLAs: No idea. DR: Adamantine Breastplate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#adamantineBreastplate), 10,200 gp. Fast healing: Epic Ring of Rapid Healing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rings.htm#rapidHealing), 300,000 gp. Immunities: Epic Ring of Energy Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rings.htm#energyImmunity), 240,000 gp. Vision: Scout's Headband (MIC), 3,400 gp. Glowy stuff: No idea. Fire resistance: Minor Ring of Fire Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#energyResistance), 12,000 gp. Poison saves: Belt of Dwarvenkind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltofDwarvenkind) (and then some!), 14,900 gp. Tongues: Continuous use item of Tongues (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/tongues.htm), 6,000xCL gp. Ability score modifiers: Amulet of Health +2 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofHealth), 4,000 gp. Periapt of Wisdom +2 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#periaptofWisdom), 4,000 gp. Cloak of Charisma +4 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cloakofCharisma), 16,000 gp. You could alternatively get a +2 as a slotless Ioun Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones), 8,000 gp.

If anybody else wants to total them up, fine. If not, that's fine too. Some of those items (e.g. the epic ones) are likely overpriced; you should be able to find cheaper alternatives. The point is that getting all of those upgrades, particularly getting them to stack, is a proper beast.

[jiriku]

I would price the fast healing and energy immunities much lower. There are many ways for non-epic characters to gain those as all-day benefits; as such, I'd argue that the designers were mistaken to give those benefits the epic-item surcharge.

[Necroticplague]

I would price the fast healing and energy immunities much lower. There are many ways for non-epic characters to gain those as all-day benefits; as such, I'd argue that the designers were mistaken to give those benefits the epic-item surcharge.

Yeah, at the very most, the fast healing should be compared to the Silithar Healing Blood graft, reducing its value by 120,000 (since the Blood is 'only' 180,000).

An item of continuous Lesser Vigor is 8k, for a less ridiculous price point.

[Jowgen]

Finally have the time to get back to this, thank you everyone who contributed thus far :smallsmile:


1 .Wis to AC: Monk's Belt, 13,000 gp.
2. Increased save DCs: No idea.
3. Bonus damage to Evil: Holy weapon enhancement, +2 bonus. Damage dealt to those who hit you in melee: Continuous use item of Fire Shield, 32,000xCL gp.
4. SLAs: No idea.
5. DR: Adamantine Breastplate, 10,200 gp.
6. Fast healing: Epic Ring of Rapid Healing, 300,000 gp.
7. Immunities: Epic Ring of Energy Immunity, 240,000 gp.
8. Vision: Scout's Headband (MIC), 3,400 gp.
9. Glowy stuff: No idea.
10. Fire resistance: Minor Ring of Fire Resistance, 12,000 gp. Poison saves: Belt of Dwarvenkind (and then some!), 14,900 gp.
11. Tongues: Continuous use item of Tongues, 6,000xCL gp.
12. Ability score modifiers: Amulet of Health +2, 4,000 gp. Periapt of Wisdom +2, 4,000 gp. Cloak of Charisma +4, 16,000 gp. You could alternatively get a +2 as a slotless Ioun Stone, 8,000 gp.

Thank you Red Fel, this is definitely in the area I was looking for. Here be my thoughts on it.

1. Wis to AC in this case is a) Insight, b) stacks with Monk & c) no armour resistriction. I think it's closer to a defending weapon with an enhancement bonus equal to Wisdom. Variable value.
2. Could be likened to a Veil of Allure (MIC), which is 14.000 gp. It's not quite the same thing, but the closest I know.
3. Holy Power isn't as good as Holy, as it's only 1d6 and can't apply to ranged. It's a +1 at most. MIC cloak of the Salamander (greater) does the same damage plus 7 in fire for 36.000 gp, making it cheaper than the Fire Shield item.
4. Custom items of at will Guidance, Virtue, Resistance would all be 1800 gp each, Bless at will would be 3600 gp.
5. The DR you get here is higher, albeit /Evil. I'd like it more to a greater Iron Ward Diamond Crystal (MIC), so 8.000 gp, with a discount for the /Evil and a surcharge for the lack of daily limit roughly balancing.
6. I think Fast Healing is better priced based on the Millenial Chaimail MIC, which can give fast healing 3 for 8150 gp.
7. I'm not familiar with other energy immunity sources TBH, but there's bound to be some. So we have 3 elemental immunity rings, and then a infinite charge petrification only Amulet of Inviolate Form (MIC) at 11.000 gp
8. I'd price it higher than the headband, since it's continuous, but not much higher. I recall Darkvision being available somewhere for a flat 10.000 gp.
9. Continuous protection from evil 4.000 gp, but with doubled values probably bump up to 16.000 gp. Continuous custom lesser Globe of Invulnerability item, 48.000 gp.
10. Agreed
11. Agreed
12. It's close, although the stack-ability is likely worth a good surcharge.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You need to remember all those abilities are spotless which will inflate their costs.