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Everyman
2007-04-16, 01:07 AM
Hey, Everybody!

I'm starting to work on a new campaign and would greatly appreciate your opinions on some of the basic outlines I've developed thus far. Nothing is more frustrating than to judge one's own work (particularly because I think I cheat when I judge), so I was hoping I could get you guys to go through some of my ideas and tell me if they sound alright.

Right now, everything I've made or adjusted is dependant on mechanics. There isn't a lot of fluff yet designed.

Campaign Type: Low Horror/Gothic
I’m not aiming for true horror. Rather, I’m going for a conflict between right and wrong, highlighting the blurred line that sometimes appears when deciding good from evil. I’ll also be aiming to make my group a tad uneasy at times.

Hook: The Virus
A lone man known only as "The Grey" has been slowly influencing the kingdom with what he calls his "Final Truth". In actuality, the "Truth" is a series of powerful viruses that change people's perceptions of the world. One virus might make people more hostile, while another renders them apathetic or comatose. The Grey believes that his "truths" are simply bringing forth our darker desires and instincts, things that we supress and hide in order to fit in. Ergo, he believes he is forcing the kingdom to face what they truly are.

As the PCs adventurer, they will have to face find and eliminate the source of each virus.

The Final Truth's effects and method of spreading will be akin to that of a plague. It is not in any way a disease or virus, but a form of mental or physical taint that quickly spreads.

Classes: Archivist (HoH), Barbarian, Bard, Duskblade (PHBII), Favored Soul (CD), Fighter, Knight (PHBII), Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Spirit Shaman (CD), Warlock (CAr), Wizard.

You'll notice that I replaced Clerics and Druids with the Archivist and Spirit Shaman. I feel these classes better fit the kind of gothic, intellectual feel I'm going for, hence the change. There are some adjustments to the Spirit Shaman though (see below)

Non-core systems being used: Taint system from Heroes of Horror

Core systems being removed/altered
* Alignment detecting spells/abilities. Instead, such talents detect/suggest the presence or absence of taint. Note that I am NOT removing alignment, per se. I'm just making the question "What's your Alignment?" a bit more difficult to determine. No easy A's here.
* In a similar fashion, many class abilities that punish good/evil instead punish taint/lack of taint. Generally, this is paired with the above replacement. For example, a paladin loses Detect Evil and Smite Evil. However, it gains Detect Taint and Smite Taint as a replacement.
* Spirit Shamans can use their "Spirit" powers on Outsiders with an alignment subtype (read: angels, devils, and demons). However, any impact from their abilities is halved (half damage, half duration). Outsiders represent "spiritual entities" in my campaign.

Impact of Magic
Compared to standard expectations, my world has fairly low magical resources. You are not very likely to buy a +5 sword off the shelf or find multiple scrolls just lying around a dungeon. This isn't to say I don't have magical gear though. Low-level gear is plentiful enough. I'm just restricting more powerful gear and items, making them rarer.

To compensate for the lack of accessible, powerful magical items, I'm implementing a "quest rewards" system with permanent items. The idea is that by completing some impressive task or quest, certain items gets "better". For example, traveling to the lair of a red dragon, slaying it, and dipping your own weapon in its blood mightresult in the flaming property appearing on your weapon. To make this a bit more effective, I'm going to get a feel for what kind of players I have and what kind of gear they are looking for and try to supply them accordingly (if appropriate).

Monsters
"Monsters" are not as common as one might expect in a D&D setting. Certain iconic creatures (angels, dragons, devils, elementals, undead) will most definately be recognizable to the average person, through stories and whatnot. However, the majority of the world's "mosters" are the result of either experimentation (chimera), taint mutations (gorgon, medusa) or simply horrible circumstance (aberrations).

I'm even going to alter the abilities of certain creatures a smidge, so they can be as unknown to the players as possible. My favorite example: Color coding for dragons is not exactly reliable.

Approved Materials: Core, PHB II, Heroes of Horror, Complete series

I plan on starting out the party at around level 3 and moving on from there.

Any suggestions/feedback for how this sounds to you?

EDIT: Added the Knight to the list of classes
EDIT: Added the Favored Soul to the list of classes
EDIT: Added the Duskblade to the list of classes
EDIT: Added the Hook to the list of notes.

Jasdoif
2007-04-16, 01:15 AM
Well, I have a question: is the Taint system in Heroes of Horror the same as the Unearthed Arcana variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm)?

Aside from that, what are your plans for other alignment-based effects (protection from law, holy smite, forbiddance, the holy/unholy weapon properties, holy water, etc.)?

Everyman
2007-04-16, 02:36 AM
It's close. In fact, HoH's system is a progression of that system. There are things that are similar and things that are not.

As far as alignment based effects, I decided to leave them in. The function just they normally would. The trick is that you can't be 100% sure what a creature's alignment is. Ergo, there's a chance that you end up striking something with the wrong attack.

Some abilities I might alter a bit, like adding a Protection for Taint spell. However, I think I'll keep the majority of the system true to itself. Alignment hasn't taken a backseat. It's just sharing some of the power with the Taint system.

Everyman
2007-04-16, 12:41 PM
Any other comments? Anyone?

Ranis
2007-04-16, 01:30 PM
From the way things sound and look, you may probably want to let your players access to some of the material in the Completes, if somewhat censored by you.

Otherwise, it looks pretty good.

Everyman
2007-04-16, 05:19 PM
That's the plan, my man.

Thanks for the input.

Aez
2007-04-16, 05:34 PM
You should add the beguiler, duskblade and knight to the allowed class list. You are already allowing the PHB II and these class are well balanced.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-04-16, 05:54 PM
You should add the beguiler, duskblade and knight to the allowed class list. You are already allowing the PHB II and these class are well balanced.
Why, just because a class is well balanced doesn't mean it fits the flavor of campaign he's aiming for. I could see any of those classes fitting but your post doesn't really add any merit to the discussion of whether or not to allow them on the basis of flavor, which seems to be one of the driving determinants for Tarkahn's upcoming game.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-16, 05:59 PM
Knight fits. Knight fits quite well, actually. Beguiler... not so much, as they lend a bit more sci-fi aspect to the game, as it were. Duskblades are nice, too, and possibly worth consideration. But Knights are a good idea here.

Low magic is a good plan, too, with a horror/gothic setting, as it lends to a more gritty feel and makes what magic there is seem more supernatural and spooky.

Everyman
2007-04-16, 08:42 PM
You know, I guess the knight does fit the flavor. Good call, everyone. The duskblade, though...not so much. It isn't because I don't like the class, but it seems a bit too "mystic fantasy" than "gritty gothic".

I'm glad you guys like the "Low magic" decision. Makes me all warm and fuzzy that you guys are enjoying the design. :smallsmile:

Lord Tataraus
2007-04-16, 08:52 PM
Personally, I love low-magic (bad experience with a wizard player). Low magic brings in many variables that are diminished in normal D&D that are brought to the forefront. Though if you go low-magic, I would suggest you don't use wizards or archivists, or at least lower there magical abilities. Additionally, you might want to lower the sorcerer's and spirit shaman's magic. Also, you might want to include Binders and Shadowcasters (the fixed version) if you have ToM, I find them as very Gothic horror-y types.

storybookknight
2007-04-16, 09:31 PM
I'm unfamiliar with Heroes of Horror specifically, but I know that it borrows a lot of its philosophical roots from Ravenloft. I like that you are running a "low horror"/gothic game as opposed to a thoroughly horrific game. Weird NPCs and creepy of origins of 'monsters' are awesome. Having your character taken over by the forces of darkness for gaining a level is not.

If you're allowing Warlocks, you might as well allow Hexblades. They occupy a similar "antihero" niche, and while not generally considered 'optimal' characters are at least worth including on the off chance that someone might want to play them.

Favored Souls are something else you might consider - it fits the archetype of a 'saint' that doesn't really necessarily know where their power comes from, or what to do with it... I can see an effective saint character being made.

I don't think anything from Complete Adventurer really fits the bill, except perhaps Scout as owning a niche between Ranger and Rogue mechanically. If you think that between "Thief" and "Woodland Foe Hunter" there's room for "mercenary/ex-soldier", then you might consider that as well; I don't think that the rationale is as strong as that for Hexblades and Favored Souls.

I'd be curious to see what you came up with for the campaign setting - it seems you've envisioned a place similar to how I have written the region of Thuringia in my homebrew campaign setting (in which the adventure Arabian Knights, in my sig, is being run.)

In any case, my suggestion is to avoid making the players too wary of sanity and taint in a strong mechanical sense. Nobody likes the feeling that they are in danger of losing control of their character's actions... to me, that's not what the game is about.

Matthew
2007-04-16, 10:58 PM
Looks good, you might consider adding Scout to the allowed Classes and some sort of Insanity Point system to the Variant Rules.

Ruik
2007-04-17, 06:43 AM
Firstly, I love the premise, especially the way that your integrating magic into the world. On that topic:


You know, I guess the knight does fit the flavor. Good call, everyone. The duskblade, though...not so much. It isn't because I don't like the class, but it seems a bit too "mystic fantasy" than "gritty gothic".

That would really depend on how you played them - if they are shiny armor fantasy standard, then I could see the issue. However they have a limited spell list, which fits your theme, and realistically you could have a mid-level duskblade, wearing some sort of gothic adorned armour and weilding a greatsword (note I've never played one and don't know how to optimise them).

Change the description of how they call on their magic, make it slightly darker... I think you could make it work somehow if you were inclined to.

Everyman
2007-04-18, 02:59 AM
Sorry for the slow reply. I've been busy with school work. Let's see...

Lord T, I'm glad you enjoy the concept of a "low magic" campaign so much. However, I don't think it'll be necessary to reduce the potential of full casters. I'm not totally removing items from the game. Players will still get treasure and rewards according to their level. They just can't go out and shop for a +3 flaming sword. They'll "earn it" instead. Also, keep in mind that the depth of spells in my campaign will be limited a bit, since scrolls will not be plentiful. Few casters will likely have more than a few spells known per spell level. Good note though. I'll try and keep your warning in mind when handing out rewards.

SBK (Good Lord that's a long post), I've never really liked Hexblades. The combination of "curse magic" with swordplay just seems wonky to me, like it was crafted last minute to fill the quota of pages per book. I'd have to hear a VERY persuasive arguement from a player before I let it in. However, the Favored Soul class is an excellent suggestion. I think I'll use it.

Oh, and don't worry. Taint will be used more for a game catalyst than a punishment. However, those who wish to experience taint to its fullest will still get their taste.

Matthew, I really, REALLY don't like the scout. No way I'm allowing it. Also, using Insanity, Taint, and Alignment issues is just a wee bit more complicated than I need. Besides, the HoH Taint system already drives you mad. However, thanks for the input. It's always good to review possible mechanics.

Ruik, you have almost repeated what my gaming group has told me when I asked them to review the set-up.:smallsmile:

I'll have to think about the duskblade. There's just something about them that doesn't sit right with me in regards to my set-up. However, that could be due to their current fluff. I'll give it some thought.

Ruik
2007-04-18, 05:36 AM
I tend to be bad at explaining myself, but here goes:

You are thinking of a duskblade as this if I understand you right:
- Wears shiny full plate
- Wields big shining great sword
- Tosses spells around complete with the description of what colour they are
- Likes to get into the fight and shine in general
(I'm being facetious, but you know the general 'fantasy' thing, pretty much the picture that's shown in the description of the class in the PHBII)

In your game, you'd want something a bit more dark:
- The half elf has short black hair and perhaps a few tattoos
- He is quiet/brooding
- Nothing shines, but it is all well cared for
- His armour is adorned with dark stylised magical runes
- He seeks not the glory
- His magic is somehow different to the way it is described in the PHBII... from angels or daemons or some-such thing... or for that matter he thinks it comes from one, but really from the other! Campaign hook!! :smallwink:
(again, you get the general idea - putting a bit of thought into the description will get you the 'gritty' feel, and if you change the source of the magic, then its not the high fantasy 'knight' - which is what I think you are getting a vague impression of)

Everyman
2007-04-18, 07:36 PM
Hmmm...

Alright. You make a good point and I really can't think of reason NOT to include them. I guess it couldn't hurt to allow it. However, I think I'll make them exceedingly rare in game, perhaps due to lost teachings or the like.

Ruik
2007-04-18, 07:39 PM
Lost teachings of an ancient civilisation, now carried on by a small group, who's teachings are slowly becoming ritualised and mysticised until the true understanding of what they do is slowly forgotten? I like it :smallsmile:

Vyker
2007-04-18, 07:42 PM
Here's an idea for the Duskblade:

Just don't make it available at early levels.

I wouldn't make it a prestige class, but maybe you could make it so they can't take the class until they meet a Duskblade/read a training manual/complete the Thousand Speechless Trials of Orsarius. That would both help with mechanics and fluff.

Lord Tataraus
2007-04-18, 07:59 PM
Here's an idea for the Duskblade:

Just don't make it available at early levels.

I wouldn't make it a prestige class, but maybe you could make it so they can't take the class until they meet a Duskblade/read a training manual/complete the Thousand Speechless Trials of Orsarius. That would both help with mechanics and fluff.

That is a good idea that I would like to second. In my low-magic campaign, casting classes are allowed to be taken for later levels after the player meets one and is trained by them.

Everyman
2007-04-18, 09:58 PM
Nah. I don't really like making base classes follow that trend. If someone really wants to play a duskblade, I'll let them. It's just that they shouldn't expect any sort of brotherhood by being one.

Matthew
2007-04-18, 10:50 PM
Matthew, I really, REALLY don't like the scout. No way I'm allowing it. Also, using Insanity, Taint, and Alignment issues is just a wee bit more complicated than I need. Besides, the HoH Taint system already drives you mad. However, thanks for the input. It's always good to review possible mechanics.
Heh, fair enough. I don't like their mechanics overmuch either, and I liked the concept better when Rangers weren't so similar... Poor old Fighter/Thief.
Yeah, the Insanity System can be a bit complicated. Still, you could always use a watered down version if your players are up to it [i.e. every time it is appropriate have them roll Will saves versus Insanity at an appropriate DC. Failure means one Insanity Point, make it clear that the only effects are up to the Player to decide and Roleplay (you will need to provide a scale)]. I have found that this works rather well, as the onus is on the player.

Everyman
2007-04-18, 11:04 PM
Luckily, the new Taint system is broken down into two types: Corruption and Depravity. The effects of depravity give off enough of an "I'ma lose my mind" kind of feel for me.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-18, 11:10 PM
Looks good, what's the hook?

Everyman
2007-04-18, 11:54 PM
Really, there isn't much yet written about the fluff. Lemme copy and paste what I've got...

THE HOOK: The "virus"
A lone man known only as "The Grey" has been slowly influencing the kingdom with what he calls his "Final Truth". In actuality, the "Truth" is a series of powerful viruses that change people's perceptions of the world. One virus might make people more hostile, while another renders them apathetic or comatose. The Grey believes that his "truths" are simply bringing forth our darker desires and instincts, things that we supress and hide in order to fit in. Ergo, he believes he is forcing the kingdom to face what they truly are.

As the PCs adventurer, they will have to face find and eliminate the source of each virus. The source of all the viruses are taint (in some fashion).

There's more, but I don't want to post it and have one of my gaming group members stumble upon these it by accident.

Oh, and I think I'll add this note to the top post.

Cybren
2007-04-18, 11:59 PM
I might avoid using the term "virus" and opt towards plague or something to avoid the players starting to think of either A) The flu or B) Mega Man X

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-19, 12:11 AM
Actually, this virus is very similar to the Maverick Virus from the MMX series. Which is not to say it's a bad hook - I'm just saying...

Cybren
2007-04-19, 12:15 AM
Actually, this virus is very similar to the Maverick Virus from the MMX series. Which is not to say it's a bad hook - I'm just saying...
Point. Perhaps more reason to avoid the term "virus" itself.

Also: do you have any mechanics in design for the virus? It might be neat to spring it on a player.

Everyman
2007-04-19, 12:25 AM
You know, I've never played the Megaman series, so I didn't know there was anything like this. After looking it up on Wikipedia, I can safely say that the "virus" from the MMX series is nothing like mine. Mine isn't a "rebellion" kind of thing. More like "Deadly Sins".

Anyway, the term "virus" is just what I'm calling it now as a reference name. Since D&D is set in more surreal medieval setting, I'll likely call it a plague when describing it to players.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-19, 12:28 AM
You know, I've never played the Megaman series, so I didn't know there was anything like this. After looking it up on Wikipedia, I can safely say that the "virus" from the MMX series is nothing like mine. Mine isn't a "rebellion" kind of thing. More like "Deadly Sins".

Anyway, the term "virus" is just what I'm calling it now as a reference name. Since D&D is set in more surreal medieval setting, I'll likely call it a plague when describing it to players.

Well, the rebellion was caused by the virus, but hey, it's your campaign. You know it better than anyone. And calling it a plague will add more realism and keep the player's minds where they belong, so I'd say that title is a keeper. You can also call it "the sickness," "the illness," or even "the curse" just to really mess with them.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-19, 12:28 AM
Heck, don't even call it a plague. You've already set this up to be a mythical thing. Play that up. Give it a spooky name and make it feel like a terrifying magic that can strike from out of anywhere.

Everyman
2007-04-19, 12:35 AM
I think I'll stick with plague. It sounds dirty, gritty, and a bit horrific. Anything else just seems a bit too undefined to really hit home how bad this is. If I say illness, it seems like they need a tissue. If I say curse, they'll think it's some kind of bad mojo. Plague sounds unstoppable to me.:smallbiggrin:

Thanks for your input, guys.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-19, 12:40 AM
No no, not mundane names like that. Here's one, on the house-

The Call.

Keep descriptions of it lucid and mysterious. Make it sound more like this villain is getting inside these peoples' heads and corrupting them from within.

Everyman
2007-04-19, 12:43 AM
VE, you do recall that the plague has a name, right? The Final Truth. Remember?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-19, 12:44 AM
Yeah, but I thought that's just what the villain and his minions called it. I was talking about everyone else. I'm sure the villains don't call it a plague, do they?

Everyman
2007-04-19, 12:49 AM
This is probably my fault for phrasing things wrong...sorry.

The problem will be known to the PCs and The Grey as the "Final Truth". It's effects and method of spreading will be akin to that of a plague. It is not in any way a disease or virus, but a form of mental or physical taint that quickly spreads.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-19, 12:53 AM
Ahh, now I see. Well, plague would probably work best then. Taint might also be a simple and colorful choice, outside of getting it confused with the game mechanic of the same name.

Do you have a name for these sources yet? "Original sin" has a pretty ominous tone to it.

Everyman
2007-04-19, 12:57 AM
Actually, I do have a few sources in mind, but I can't post them. One, they're still just basic ideas and I need to further them a bit more. Second, I can't risk any of my fellow gamers seeing it.
...
Oh, and I decided to add the clarification I just posted to the inital post.

Thanks for your input. Now I'ma head to sleep.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-19, 01:26 AM
Or you could call it "The Joy of the Court." Any PC that actually gets the literary reference would wet themselves.

Everyman
2007-04-19, 02:34 PM
The English Major in me feels like I should get that reference...

After googling it, I still don't get it.:smalltongue:
------------------------------------------

Well, I think I've got all the critique/input I'm going to get. Thanks for you help, everyone!

Ruik
2007-04-19, 10:24 PM
Well, I think I've got all the critique/input I'm going to get. Thanks for you help, everyone!
Your welcome :smallwink:

Morgan_Scott82
2007-04-20, 12:40 PM
Tarkahn, it sounds like you're getting a good grip for what's coming. I love the premise you've got here, it sounds very ravenloft (which since you're going to gothic horror, is a good thing). Personally I dislike the mechanics of both the knight and the duskblade, while really liking the scout, but I understand the rationale you've laid out for your game and think they fit well enough.

While I'm here hopefully you won't begrudge me for cross-promoting my own campaign set up thread over in the homebrew section that hasn't gotten as much attention. I would enjoy hearing the same lively back and forth feedback and development I've seen here. Anyone who wants to help me out can check it out here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40806. Thanks.

Everyman
2007-04-20, 02:27 PM
Thanks for the comments, Scotty.

And no, I don't mind at all if you advert in my thread. At least you gave me some input. In fact, I'll head over to your thread now and give it a lookie-look.